Kingmaker 1 of 6: Stolen Land (Inactive)

Game Master Nicolas Paradise

Beginning of the Discussion thread.

Go ahead and give the Players Guide a read

As an additional Source I will put my copy of People of the River on dropbox for anyone who wants to have it as a source for making a character more connected to the region.

Brevoy doesn't have a source book unfortunately

While I think over 15 or 20 point buy use the players guide as reference for what is obviously allowed.

Give me a bit to read over the PG and volume 1 of the AP to see if there is anything else fun I want to add.

Off the top of my head I would allow an android PC in the party. An android escaping into the wilderness to avoid capture and torture of the Technic league and trying to get in touch with the natural world seems fun.

Hm, that android idea of yours reminds me of a character I though up a long time back and never used. The android "hatched" from his pod in southern Numeria completely alone. Without any direction from anyone, he just wandered off southward into the River Kingdoms.

Some time later he came upon a small wizard's tower in the forest. It was abandoned but habitable so he decided to stay. From the books available there he puzzled out how to read, then read all the books left there. In the process he taught himself the basics of magic.

Eventually he wandered on as a 1st level Wizard, meeting X and doing Y (as required for the AP in question.) He would be a Universalist without a speciality school of course. Obviously he's lacking in many of the social basics.

I'm not staking a claim on the android slot or anything like that. If anyone likes the idea, feel free to use it.

A note: I am sort of playing Kingmaker already. I am in a glacially slow-moving and heavily modified version of the AP. I joined in April 2018 at level 4, and now we are level 5. I believe that very little of what we have done over those four years is part of the AP, so I don't think much has been spoiled for me. I very much want to get to actually play the AP, which that game is not.

I just love the aesthetic of a human on a horse with a lance. Kingmaker is considered be a decent AP fit for such a character. That doesn't tie down class or role at all. There are a few ways to get a mount and proficiency with the lance.

If there were no other constraints, and nobody had any preferences, I might play a Cavalier, maybe dipping Bard and going into Battle Herald.

But if the arcane role were needed? Magus with Mount.
Divine? Divine Commander Warpriest (or Chivalry Inquisitor).
Skilled? Scout Rogue with Major Magic (Mount).
"Fifth Man"? Skald or Bard, with bought horses at low levels and Phantom Steed at 7th+. Or maybe the Animal Ally feat.

Background would probably be a younger son or else a daughter of a notable Brevoy family, who having no prospects for inheritance has sought to make their name in the Stolen Lands. Unless Green Knight (see below).

If I were to do the divine role, I'd probably want to follow Iomedae and be LG. If that is not the vibe that we want, then someone else should take the divine role.

The Cavalier and the Divine Commander both give shareable teamwork feats, which could be interesting - but the usefulness of that depends on how much the GM wants to use maps vs. theater of the mind.

Now, there's an interesting option that would be a bit more out there. The Green Knight cavalier lacks a mount (though can get it back with Animal Ally) and has to follow the Order of the Green. Such a character would be enigmatic, and seeking to be part of the group securing a charter for the Stolen Lands for the purpose of being able to keep at least part of the lands wild. Such cavaliers are described as sometimes being the service of fey beings, and I do know there is a fey connection to the AP, so that could be worked in. The Green Knight would definitely not be telling others they couldn't develop their lands... I can see an interesting way for him to fit with the AP's "build a kingdom in the wilderness" concept while adhering to his Order's edicts. It does lose Tactician, though.

Anyway, I have a bunch of ideas, and am open to many things, but I want to ride a horse.

Edit: @rdknight - the Arcane Warden wizard archetype requires you to be a universalist and gives a lot of abilities related to wilderness exploration. Might be of interest?

Here! (Vexas).

Cross-posting the 15pt arrays that don't include a sub-10 score:
17,12,10,10,10,10 (+4)
16,14,10,10,10,10 (+5)
16,12,12,11,10,10 (+5)
15,15,11,10,10,10 (+4)
15,14,12,11,10,10 (+5)
15,12,12,12,12,10 (+6)
14,12,12,12,12,12 (+7)

Despite my character in "Ruins" I often gravitate towards arcane casters. I don't necessarily need to do that here. In fact with a 15pt buy I can see some creativity to start with a background and figure out "what could this person do."

This is one of the few campaigns where a mount definitely can work. However there will be points of exploring ruins, caves ect so making sure they can still be effective off mount should be considered.

As for the android idea something along those lines would work great. My only criticism is that Androids are 'born' being able to read write and speak so they would have only have to teach themselves any new languages in that story.

I am open to character options. I am thinking of myself as the 5th wheel, where I build a pc that might fill a gap or compliment others. With all of your vast knowledge, feel free to point me in a direction.

Heck, I'd even consider being Aldizog's horse if the character's name would be Wilbur. Then you could call me Mr. Ed. :)

My Character

Hope I am not dating myself too much with that reference . . .

As an additional Source I will put my copy of People of the River on dropbox for anyone who wants to have it as a source for making a character more connected to the region.

Definitely interested in this too, however it's being shared (publicly or by email invite).

I tend toward the more skills oriented 3/4 BAB 6 level caster classes. Probably not another Bard (though I never get tired of Bards) but maybe an Investigator using the Natural Philosopher and Cartographer archetypes. Expeditions into the wilderness need mapmakers after all!

Neither archetype changes Investigator in fundamental ways, but they do swap some minor things out to give it a cool map making skill that works kind of like an alt-Favored Terrain, and Herbalism. Combined they make for a neat outdoorsy version of the class.

That said, a plain Alchemist would be fun too. Still thinking about it all.

Looking at it purely from story, I like the idea of an elf or half-elf who's, maybe not entirely happily, working for Kyonin to locate potential sites of historical or cultural significance because it might stengthen Kyonin's claims to land in the region.

Something like a half-elven Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle would be super embarrassing in Kyonin. Just the sort of person they would want to send out to do something useful to be rid of them.

Hey Mioki, what about we run a pair of siblings so we can bicker all the time?

Say, off the top of my head, if I played an Alchemist, you could play a Mutation Warrior Fighter, with my character being the one who taught you a little about alchemy.

Or, if you're more inclined toward something roguish, my character, still an alchemist, used to give yours alchemical goodies to help you out against their better judgement, but then you got found out by Johnnie Law and now my character has been dragged into being a fugitive with yours.

Hey Mioki, what about we run a pair of siblings so we can bicker all the time?

Say, off the top of my head, if I played an Alchemist, you could play a Mutation Warrior Fighter, with my character being the one who taught you a little about alchemy.

Or, if you're more inclined toward something roguish, my character, still an alchemist, used to give yours alchemical goodies to help you out against their better judgement, but then you got found out by Johnnie Law and now my character has been dragged into being a fugitive with yours.

I do like the thought of siblings. Maybe even twins. You could be a few minutes older and hold that over me.

Always and forever!

@rdknight: Building off of the sibling idea - Do you have a Campaign Trait preference? I kind of like Rostlander. It gives me a heroic vibe.

Of course, only thoughts at this point. No deal breakers / nothing set in stone.

Question: Is the idea in Kingmaker that every character should want to end up being the final ruler, or is it more like the party is supporting one specific member for such a role?

(i.e., are we meant to be at odds with each other along the way?)

I haven't given much thought to campaign traits yet. If Mioki and I are going to go the siblings route we'd need to work it out together. Also, several of the traits, like Rostlander or Pioneer, are quite broad. It wouldn't be awkward to have a whole party of Rostlanders. No hard to believe coincidences there, Rostland is right next door.

My understanding of the Kingdom roles is they tend to break down along ability score lines:

Ruler: Charisma
Councilor: Wisdom or Charisma
General: Strength or Charisma
Grand Diplomat: Intelligence or Charisma
High Priest: Wisdom or Charisma
Magister: Intelligence or Charisma
Marshal: Dexterity or Wisdom
Royal Assassin: Strength or Dexterity
Spymaster: Dexterity or Intelligence
Treasurer: Intelligence or Wisdom
Warden: Strength or Constitution

So characters fill roles best suited to their ability score strengths. For example, a Bard or Sorcerer would fill the ruler role because they have the Charisma. A Fighter or Barbarian would work well as a Warden, High Priest works for Cleric, etc.

I don't think the idea is for there to be inter-party conflict since there are roles for everyone.

It does make running something like an Oracle tempting though. That way you could have, what's the saying?

"A queen! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me, and despair!"

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Hi, this is Sho's player.

I do have this character (on a 20 point build) I played in a Kingmaker campaign which didn't went too far.

On a 15 points build, it would probably be something like that:
Str 13/ Dex 10/ Con 14/ Int 10/ Wis 12/ Cha 14, with +2 racial bonus to Cha.

Hadin is a low-born paladin, so I would like to swap Know Nobility for Know Local as a Class skill.

Or I could create an altogether brand new character. ^^

Maybe a list would be helpful to see what's come up in one place.

Sho: Human Paladin?

Bannart: Martial or Martial adjacent? With a horse.

Vexas: Tends to like arcane casters?

Fenna: Investigator? Alchemist? Mioki's sibling.

Mioki: Flex? Fenna's Sibling.

Does that get where we're all at fairly well?

@Mioki: If the list above is accurate, the most glaring omission is a divine caster. You mentioned a Cleric of Abadar. If you like that idea for your character, we can work the siblings angle with it.

Again off the top of my head and subject to your ideas as well: Drix and Drax are twins who were born in a small Rostland town. Their parents own the local mill, so they're prosperous by local, small town standards.

They wanted an educated child, but could only really afford it for one. Drax was sent away as a young teen to Abadar's temple, where he received an education and later entered the priesthood. Drix was left to make due with some local tutors and her own devices regarding education. Drix however is the bright one and learned quite a lot from reading and exploration of local nature (depending on how other character choices shake out, maybe Cartographer/Natural Philosopher Investigator, maybe Ranger).

Now back together, Drix and Drax are still very much attached to each other, but there are some underlying tensions. Drax has changed during his time away and now looks down on life outside the city. He's become a little insufferable. Drix resents Drax for being the one who got the education, feeling overlooked by their parents. But at the same time she wouldn't have traded places with him if it would have meant she would have turned out like him.

If you really want to ratchet up the tension and insert some real world stakes into it, Drix could be a Druid now.

Just an option to consider, I've got a million of 'em.

Do you have any preferences regarding race? I tend to default to human most of the time, but I wouldn't call it a preference.

I am entirely willing to fill the divine role, if needed.

I've never played a Warpriest or Inquisitor, and both of those classes have mounted options.

I have some experience with Inquisitor and Warpriest and the better one in lieu of a standard Cleric is Warpriest. Inquisitor gets the Cure line of spells, but off the top of my head I'm not sure they get other things like Restoration, etc. In any case you'd not really want to be choosing those spells as spells known for a spontaneous caster. It would mean lots of wands.

Warpriest has fewer spells per day and such, and the channeling is weaker and more expensive. In a campaign that isn't undead heavy or that sort of thing, Warpriest should be able to do the job fine, if not quite as quickly.

Yeah, there are a few reasons why the Warpriest looks better.
Lance proficiency, heavy armor (less need for Dex), Celestial mount eventually, and the fact that Bane - which is the Inquisitor's bread and butter - isn't great for a lancer.

So if I go divine, it is probably Divine Commander Warpriest.

If Mioki wants to play a cleric, I'll probably go with Cavalier or Dragoon (unless Vexas wants to play a martial).

@GM, what are your thoughts on Variant Multiclassing?

Variant multiclassing is fine as long as you can snuffer the loss of feats which not all classes can.

I am personally a fan of Warpriest but mostly because it is self sufficient with swift action self target spells.

I can fill the role of divine caster. If this is the role I fill, I might do something other than a follower of Abadar.

If Aldizog wants to play a Warpriest, then I'll maybe go with a ranged-specialist via Rogue / Ranger / Fighter. (I think a Ranger would do well and be beneficial for this AP) Or depending on what type of arcane caster PaleDim chooses, maybe a different type of caster. Magus? Sorcerer?

I am flexible on what I play. (preference might be Ranger or Magus/Sorcerer but not by much)

@Aldizog - choose the character you want, and I'll work around that.

@rdknight - no preference on race. If we are siblings, human makes the most sense. Or I could be an orphaned half-orc taken in by humans. We could be roughly the same age and tell everyone that we are twins.

"Hey, we're twins. Can't you see the resemblance?"

I know that Pathfinder offers so many options that I am completely unaware of. With my limited experience, I will typically stay with the core base or stray slightly into something I am somewhat familiar with. I do own most of the books, just have not read through them all. If anyone wants to throw out cool options, I'll do the research.

So far, we don't have a rogue, or someone able to DD (except if Fenna plays an alchemist/investigator)

The Investigator set of archetypes I'm looking at trades out trapfinding. It would be easy to get it back though. A 1 level dip into Trapper Ranger would get it back, plus a few other beneficial things. It's not much of an issue to lose a level off the main class progression with Investigator like is it with some other classes, so I've no problem with doing it.

Regarding healing, there are quite a few ways to work around having a divine caster for all our healing needs. I'm sure y'all know this, but to put a couple of specific possibilities out there I'll mention these:

I could go with an Alchemist and use the Bramble Brewer and Chirurgeon archetypes. Along with the Heal Skill Unlocks I could handle much of what we need.

If anyone was interested in Witch, they can be great healers and have the advantage of being able to work both sides, Spells and Hexes to prevent damage from happening in the first place, and good healing abilities with the right archetype like Herb Witch, etc. to take care of the rest. In fact I kind of like that idea myself.

I've never played a Skald, but I wouldn't mind giving it a go if party composition is right for it. They hand out Damage Resistance eventually, get the same healing spells as the Bard, and could also pick up the Heal Skill Unlocks. This one comes online later and is probably the weakest for healing, but could share the load with someone else who can do some healing.

Mioki: We can keep the relatives thing loose and see if it works once some other things are decided. If it works it works but if not that's fine.

As far as races go, I'll probably stick with human, but there are a couple of exceptions I might make. Bramble Brewer Alchemist is half-elf only. If I end up using melee weapons I might go with half-elf to pick up proficiency with the broken-back seax. It's a weapon I've always thought was cool, but never used. I might go with elf or changeling for a witch if I went that direction.

Is anyone thinking about biting on the android offering?

One of my houserules is anyone can find and disarm traps obviously rogues and the like are better at it. Bard, Fighter, Ranger, Gunslinger add DD to class skills.

I love rogues and think traps and hazzards are compelling obstacles when used right but I hate that Pazio basically made rogue and archetypes that add it be able to deal with traps. With the huge ammount of classes and archetypes it sucks to pidgeon hole a roguelike into every party.

Okay, I will give the Divine Commander Warpriest a try.

Between a warpriest and a paladin, we should be okay for healing.

I am giving some thought to various deities.

These are all very background heavy. Personality/behavior notes will come after.

A wizard from Numeria who is obsessed with the idea that tech and mystical powers are an essential element of a development kingdom or society. He also believes it would be beneficial to penetrate the settlement of Skywatch and find like minds there who are willing to venture out. Why a non-Kellid wizard was in Numeria to begin with, and why he had to leave are interesting questions he'll have a hard time avoiding...

An elf wizard from Kyonin sent to check up on the situation and report back on stability, and threats. Also, his superiors think it would be advantageous for an establishing kingdom to have alignment with the Elven nation so as to build up something of a "buffer" or "wall" in front of them, dissuading would-be invaders from the North.

A dwarven investigator from Eastern Rostland who can't figure out why the river kingdoms can't just "get it together."

A gnome sorcerer who until recently had taken assignments (from a specific gnomish town in the river kingdoms) surveying connections to the First World along the Sellen river in the Stolen Lands. Before that he was a toy maker. Others may see him as something of a scrappy hedge wizard.

Many of these seem to fit Councilor, Magister, or Treasurer.

The campaign traits seem very constraining when I think about the backgrounds above. Rostlander or Pioneer works for some of these but for those from further abroad I'm not sure.

Variant multiclassing is fine as long as you can snuffer the loss of feats which not all classes can.

I am personally a fan of Warpriest but mostly because it is self sufficient with swift action self target spells.

I find that very strong inquisitors can be built along different feat paths, and that the main class doesn't actual have any strong feat tendencies.

BTW, I should clarify (in the spirit of session 0) I'm open to being very flexible and not necessarily even anchored to a specific class. Of course my examples so far don't do a good job of supporting that :P.

BUT if others wanted to maybe not be slotted so quickly into specific classes please speak up.

Looking at some of the ideas here, if I do proceed with my natural habit a witch (with a bit of healing) could work with some of my ideas too.

One of my houserules is anyone can find and disarm traps obviously rogues and the like are better at it. Bard, Fighter, Ranger, Gunslinger add DD to class skills.

This is a nice way of doing it. There should be at least one, maybe a couple of characters who can handle it without having to worry about it beforehand. Does this include the ability to disarm magical traps, or does that still require Trapfinding?

GM: Any decision on point buy yet?

Yeah, the campaign traits all assume an origin in Brevoy. I've been wondering about that too. Especially with some of the non-human races it's a little hard to square the circle. I suppose somewhat more exotic humans like Kellids and Ulfen could use the the Issian trait and be from the north of Brevoy?

The Players Guide does note that "Chelish, Keleshite, Tian, and Ulfen visitors commonly pass through or make new homes in the River Kingdoms’ many outcast sanctuaries."

The Players Guide does note that "Chelish, Keleshite, Tian, and Ulfen visitors commonly pass through or make new homes in the River Kingdoms’ many outcast sanctuaries."

So the Pioneer trait could work with that? I mean I guess it depends on how literally we must treat the descriptive portions of the traits.

Hm, that android idea of yours reminds me of a character I though up a long time back and never used. The android "hatched" from his pod in southern Numeria completely alone. Without any direction from anyone, he just wandered off southward into the River Kingdoms.

Some time later he came upon a small wizard's tower in the forest. It was abandoned but habitable so he decided to stay. From the books available there he puzzled out how to read, then read all the books left there. In the process he taught himself the basics of magic.

Eventually he wandered on as a 1st level Wizard, meeting X and doing Y (as required for the AP in question.) He would be a Universalist without a speciality school of course. Obviously he's lacking in many of the social basics.

I'm not staking a claim on the android slot or anything like that. If anyone likes the idea, feel free to use it.

On reflection this is a pretty good wizard background too, so I'll throw that on my list of candidates, but probably with some adjustments. E.g., perhaps this is a great background for the wizard-from-numeria above.

Feel free to react to the above ideas positively or negatively.

PaleDim: I guess the question your Numerian Wizard background raises for me is: If he's interested in tech and Skywatch, why is he turning back around to go tramping about in the Stolen Lands?

Given the chartering to explore and settle lands, it's an opportunity to inject that influence in a new kingdom. The place of technology is pretty set in Numeria (e.g., with the Kellid clans being against its extraction).

Skywatch is just a "local" bastion that might support this influence. This bit is secondary though and just something that might come up if the AP ever approaches that place.

A couple of broad ideas for backgrounds I thought of but probably won't be using of anyone's interested.

This is for a Transporter Archetype Ranger I was thinking about, but could be repurposed. They used to smuggle political refugees out of Galt into the River Kingdoms, but eventually it began to draw too much attention. They decided to head to Restov for a while until things cooled off.

For anyone wanting a link to the Aldori Swordlords. Mivon is basically a little Sword Lords River Kingdom directly south of the Stolen Lands, run by the Houses in Exile from Brevoy. Maybe someone from there is ambitious enough to try to claim it as a step in pushing back against Brevoy?

GM: Any decision on point buy yet?

Still leaning 15 but if the whole group feels 20 is that much better I will swap. But once I get finished rereading the first volume I will have a definite decision.

I did run part of book one for friends 9 years ago.

Paradise GM wrote:

One of my houserules is anyone can find and disarm traps obviously rogues and the like are better at it. Bard, Fighter, Ranger, Gunslinger add DD to class skills.

This is a nice way of doing it. There should be at least one, maybe a couple of characters who can handle it without having to worry about it beforehand. Does this include the ability to disarm magical traps, or does that still require Trapfinding?

Yes, but depending on the particular trap help from a party member trained in K.arcana or using detect magic or using enchanted thieves tools I like as a compromise.

~~~

Still doing my preparatory reading but I will give the campaign traits a once over and give suggestions that will help with not being from the immediate area.

Although it would probably be a good idea for at least one player who is maybe the party leader not necessarily the ruler to be from Brevoy to help make sense why they would fund the kingdom.

I find that very strong inquisitors can be built along different feat paths, and that the main class doesn't actual have any strong feat tendencies.

Yah, inquisitor can work with a small amount of feats. Like Warpriest they have a lot of self buff and enablers with judgments.

~~~

I defiantly like the idea of the 'siblings' whatever the classes end up being. Would be nice if once we are a bit more sure what everyone else will play if we can work to have at least two more other members know each other. After that I may add a small intro scenario to bind you as an adventuring group and maybe assume that prior to taking the offer from Brevoy you have worked as a group once or twice before doing some light adventuring which is why one of the lords is/would sponsor you in the first place.

Yeah, I think starting from a place of "We're from Mivon and pushing back against Brevoy" or "We're from Kyonin and trying to reclaim the land for the elves" would meet with some clear hostility from the funders of this expedition.

I am probably going to go with an Ulfen follower of Torag.

I really considered making this quasi-cavalier an Iomedae follower and a refugee from Lastwall... but I am just so mad at Paizo for what they did to Lastwall. So I think I would be happier not stewing in it, and instead making someone with no Lastwall connections.

What did they do to Lastwall?

What did they do to Lastwall?

It is kind of spoilers for Tyrant's Grasp

Oh! Wow!

Building on the assumption that rdknight plays an investigator or other skilled character, PaleDim plays something arcane, and Aldizog sticks with divine caster, I'll go with a human ranger focusing on archery.

Probably from Rostland with the Hunter Trait as my non-AP Trait.

@rdknight - if this idea meshes with your character idea, let's keep the sibling idea if you still want to. If not, no worries.

If anyone thinks we would benefit from a rogue instead (or something else), please let me know.

I personally think a Ranger fits in every campaign but Kingmaker fits more than most given that the whole concept of a ranger is maintaining the border between wilderness and civilization and protecting each from the other.

Without any good mental stats but because of their huge pool of skills they make good secondary leadership roles like a Martial or Warden.

Also if said character is inclined there are a number of deities that rangers often follow such as Erastil, Gozreh and Desna and as the Players guide says Erastil and Gorum have many appearances in the ap.

Mioki: Yeah, an archer Ranger fits very well. It's probably more thematic in this particular case, but you might also want to look a Slayer if you're not familiar with it. It gets most of the fundamental parts of the Ranger class, but (I think at least) the Studied Target system for Slayer is nicer than the Favored Enemy system of the Ranger. The bonuses for Studied Target are smaller, but they can always be applied. You don't have worry about choosing a favored enemy type that doesn't really pan out. Still Ranger is a good class, better than many give it credit for.

Also if Ranger, etc. are getting disable device as a class skill in this game, you're our Rogue as far as that goes. No need to worry about that anymore.

Siblings, relatives, or not, in some ways I'd rather you go ahead and make your choice for what you'd like to play first. I can always work around it. You've been in games much less (if at all?) as a player. I've played plenty of characters using plenty of classes. You should do whatever appeals to you most and you think would be the most fun.

That said, backgrounds are a thing one just makes up. If you're a Ranger, a sibling of most any class works as long as the story is told right.

We do have a Paladin of Erastil, so I was leery about Gorum.

But Gorum is a fantastic deity for a Warpriest. Can get Armor Training like a fighter, Lead Blades as a spell, a 2d6 favored weapon for a Vital Strike build (which Warpriests excel at), Vital Strike on a charge... plus, thematically, it fits. The Evangelist abilities (a very good PrC option) focus on mounted combat.

It's quite tempting. Could be either CG or N, as the party's General. Totally willing to defer to the LG types on whether or not we go to war, but if we do, the warpriest's job would be to make sure we win.

Can't Vital strike on a charge but a giant one hit per turn dps with tons of options for the off turns are fun.

Vital Strike FAQ

Malakar is going to be building toward that since the wild-shape provided by Shark Shaman counts as 2 levels lower if it isn't a shark and all the sharks only have the bite so Vital Strike Huge Great White Bites it will be.

But a Warpriest of Gorum does sound fun. Like a better bloodrager honestly.

When talking fails we unleash Cleave. Camera pans to roided out monster of a man with a 5' long anime sword glowing with holy radiance!

Divine Fighting Technique of Gorum allows Vital Strike on a charge.

And I could VMC Barbarian...