Didn't one of the Fiend books that talked about Graz'zt allude to him being a former Archdevil involved in the Blood War who switched sides after carving up a good chunk of the Abyss for himself? I could've sworn I read that somewhere but I can't remember where.That's a 4e WotC thing.
Figures >.>
Creative Director
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-I don't remember, was #18 written in character? If not, then like you said, minor.
-Why couldn't they be both, or neither? Deities parallel evolving monsters, or propoganda to get them to worship a deity?
-No, it wasn't written in character. In the section detailing Demon Lords of Golarion, there's a sidebar on qlippoths. That sidebar said that there weren't any Qlippoth Lords - only qlippoths that essentially transformed into demons (Mazzmezz, Dagon, etc.).
-In Rise of the Runelords #6, under "Lamyros Religion," it's actually specifically stated that lamia have no relationship to Lamashtu. The lamia race was created when Pharasma cursed a selfish priestess. Lamashtu, however, gladly accepts lamia worship in spite on this.
In between writing Pathfinder #18 (which used 3.5) and writing Lords of Chaos (which uses the PFRPG), I basically decided that we had more room to get more flexible on the question of deity-level outsiders. That, and I decided that qlippoth lords are a good thing. But they're rare and pretty hidden out of sight—a qlippoth that's transformed into a demon lord is still more common.
The change to how lamia work was basically nothing more than a little bit of fine-tuning to the deities. Creating a world is complex, and now and then things we create in the early days, with the benefit of several more years of development, don't make as much sense.
I absolutely accept your point, even though I always considered manipulation more a concern of devils than demons. I am sticking to a more-Gygaxian view of demons as beings of pure chaos and violence.
In any case, I'd like to adapt my view of graz'zt to the new demon rules.Manipulation is a tool that ALL the outsider races use to a certain extent; it's not something that only one outsider type has a lock on.
Devils prey upon the mind and faith and loyalty of mortals, and want to corrupt them into being evil and betraying their kin so that when they die, their souls go to Hell and fuel the machine.
Demons prey upon the flesh and the body and the cities of mortals, and want to destroy and ruin things—be that by showing up and smashing things or by showing up and being more subtle about ruining things like relationships or reputations or political stuff or other less tangible things—buildings are as much a mortal construct as are marriages, and both of those are examples of things that demons want to destroy. If you're destroying a building or a body, claws and weapons and fire and stuff work great. If you're destroying a marriage or a political alliance, manipulation and seduction and the like are better options. Demons aren't really concerned about populating the Abyss with evil souls—they're just not as greedy as devils in that way.
Daemons just want human souls; they're gluttons and do what they can to just kill mortals. The more refined/sneaky/forward thinking of daemons try to engineer ways to create vast devastation, like wars or famines or plagues or the like, while others have ways to "trick" souls into going to Abaddon, where they're hunted like game.
All three of them can use manipulation to achieve these ends.
Dear Mr. Beek Gwenders,
To expand upon what Mr. Jacobs said, I should just like to make clear that we demons (on a good day) no more wish to ruin or destroy things than the average mortal. Well not apart from a few weird sadists, but then every population has a few hundred billion of those. However, on a BAD day, taking out the ill humour that that day has generated on something or someone else is important, and the odd mortal city may occasionally get flattened if there aren't enough lower-ranking demons around to kick.The principle difference in outlook of course between that of the demonic sorceress maiden and that of the shiny paladin of Aroden is that on the bad day, no matter how bad he feels, the paladin of Aroden is unable to kick the puppy because he's been brainwashed into bottling up his anger and turning it in on himself in a fit of righteous self-loathing and self-flagellation; the demonic sorceress maiden, on the other hand, has no conditioning to prevent her from honestly expressing her feelings by turning the puppy into a slavering giant wolfhound and loosing it on the settlement (saving the owner for last) and then seducing the paladin just to relieve her ill feelings over being ticked off by a higher ranking demon for not filling his bath fast enough with the blood of ten thousand angels.
Now, do demons manipulate mortals? Of course we do. For fun. You're so entertaining. And some of us love a challenge. The Cleric of Iomedae who asserts that her faith in her deity is unshakeable is just setting herself up as a bigger and more attractive target for demons to bring her low; that's exactly like painting a great big sign in a hundred foot letters of fire 'I bet you can't make me fall, come and get me you idiots' in the sky. The wonderful thing about being a demon is precisely that we're not hidebound by any conventions or concerns for the personal safety of objects or personages not in some way valuable to us. If we feel like manipulating the heck out of someone today, then by golly that's what we're going to do. If we feel like spending the afternoon indoors reading a play whilst sipping lemonade than that's going to be what we do and anyone lower ranking who interferes is going to Catch It for disturbing us from what we were trying to get on with.
Tragically there are a good many false rumours and stories in circulation about demonkind in general.
Anyway, I hope that this has cleared some things up for you and been helpful.
Yours,
Ask A Succubus.
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Creative Director
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Speaking of Qlippoths, I like how Lovecraftian they are. It makes me wonder how the Qlippoth and the Mythos are linked... or perhaps they're one in the same?
They're simliar in the non-humanness, but they're not linked. Qlippoth are from the deep Abyss, while the majority of the Lovecraft stuff is from the Material Plane. Qlippoth are also a lot more tightly related; they all have the same basic traits, for example, and all are chaotic evil outsiders. That's not the case for Lovecraftian monsters, who are all over the place in monster type, powers, and alignment.
For those that like this stuff, I would also like to suggest the The Super-Mage Bestiary for Hero System (1999). They have an interesting take on qliphotic entities (I know knothing about Kabbalah but I think there's a lot of inspiration from that).
Besides, is there something like Thoon in the PF cosmology? Or the "beyond the ring" of 1E?
I have always been inspired by these words by Jeff Grubb (from the AD&D1 Manual of the Planes):
Beyond the Outer Planes
What is presented in the preceding pages is a summary of the realms, layers, and planes that make up the known planes of existence. This is by no means the final word on the subject, as the nature of these infinite realms defies any all-encompassing treatises. There can be any number of realms in a layer, so that a third or fourth major pantheon can exist in Olympus/Arvandor, or an evil power created by the DM can dominate a section of the Nine Hells where no arch-devils rule. It is also possible that there are further layers beyond those that have been discovered and reported. There may be an eighth heaven, or a third paradise that is undiscovered or unreachable by the spells and abilities known to researchers. Gladsheim may have as many layers as the
Abyss, but lacks the Abyssal method of reaching them. Finally, our conception of the planes has grown with the AD&D® game. Original presentations of the inner planes make no mention of the quasi-and para-elemental planes, and ear[y discussions of the outer planes leave out Concordant Opposition. There may be more such planes beyond the scope of the model of the planes presented here. There may also be a different form of Astral space between the outer planes and planes farther out, or within the center of Concordant Opposition. Even without new planes, there are enough wild and unexplored known lands to occupy the extraplanar traveler for years. The demi-planes that float in the Ethereal may be the size of worlds, their only limitation being that they are finite where the other planes are infinite. Alternate Prime Material planes enable travelers to visit worlds that are Earth-like or not-so-Earthlike, familiar, hostile, and strange. The only limitation to planar adventures ls the imagination of those involved. This tome's purpose is to help fire the imaginations of DMs and players so that they explore the myriad planes of the AD&D® system.
For those that like this stuff, I would also like to suggest the The Super-Mage Bestiary for Hero System (1999). They have an interesting take on qliphotic entities (I know knothing about Kabbalah but I think there's a lot of inspiration from that).
Besides, is there something like Thoon in the PF cosmology? Or the "beyond the ring" of 1E?
I have always been inspired by these words by Jeff Grubb (from the AD&D1 Manual of the Planes):
Beyond the Outer Planes
What is presented in the preceding pages is a summary of the realms, layers, and planes that make up the known planes of existence. This is by no means the final word on the subject, as the nature of these infinite realms defies any all-encompassing treatises. There can be any number of realms in a layer, so that a third or fourth major pantheon can exist in Olympus/Arvandor, or an evil power created by the DM can dominate a section of the Nine Hells where no arch-devils rule. It is also possible that there are further layers beyond those that have been discovered and reported. There may be an eighth heaven, or a third paradise that is undiscovered or unreachable by the spells and abilities known to researchers. Gladsheim may have as many layers as the
Abyss, but lacks the Abyssal method of reaching them. Finally, our conception of the planes has grown with the AD&D® game. Original presentations of the inner planes make no mention of the quasi-and para-elemental planes, and ear[y discussions of the outer planes leave out Concordant Opposition. There may be more such planes beyond the scope of the model of the planes presented here. There may also be a different form of Astral space between the outer planes and planes farther out, or within the center of Concordant Opposition. Even without new planes, there are enough wild and unexplored known lands to occupy the extraplanar traveler for years. The demi-planes that float in the Ethereal may be the size of worlds, their only limitation being that they are finite where the other planes are infinite. Alternate Prime Material planes enable travelers to visit worlds that are Earth-like or not-so-Earthlike, familiar, hostile, and strange. The only limitation to planar adventures ls the imagination of those involved. This tome's purpose is to help fire the imaginations of DMs and players so that they explore the myriad planes of the AD&D® system.
Gah how much longer before this actually ships to subscribers? it would be a really great present to get this before christmas....
Our warehouse staff is working full-tilt to ship them as quickly as possible.
I definitely think this is one of Pathfinder's racier books. There is certainly some adult-themed material sprinkled throughout, but I think the author(s) did an excellent job toeing the line without actually crossing over into X-rated territory. (Well, perhaps with the exception of Socothbenoth's obedience! That's definitely an act that would get you kicked out of most Sunday school classes.)
Okay, I'll ask: what is Socothbenoth's obedience?
For that matter, do we get obediences for my favorite demon ladies, Lamashtu and Jezelda?
I noticed you guys did not do a Per chapter PDF for this, it is not a big deal for me, but it is uncommon for this series.
Normally the per-chapter files are made a byproduct of preparing the product for print. I'm not sure why this one was done differently. In any case, we should provide a per-chapter breakdown for this product, so we're looking into it.
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Okay, I'll ask: what is Socothbenoth's obedience?
For that matter, do we get obediences for my favorite demon ladies, Lamashtu and Jezelda?
Socothbenoth's obedience is to achieve sexual release and defile a page from a Lawful Good deity's holy text.
There's two pages on Lamashtu and one on Jezelda. Both have obediences. Lamashtu's involves either engaging in sex with the intent of impregnating someone / being impregnated or killing something that has been alive less than a week. Jezelda's involves either prayers below the moon or the sacrifice of an intelligent member of your own race, tearing out its throat with your teeth and feeding on the body.
Socothbenoth's obedience is to achieve sexual release and defile a page from a Lawful Good deity's holy text.
Darn you, Gadigan!
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Chief Technical Officer
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I noticed you guys did not do a Per chapter PDF for this, it is not a big deal for me, but it is uncommon for this series.Normally the per-chapter files are made a byproduct of preparing the product for print. I'm not sure why this one was done differently. In any case, we should provide a per-chapter breakdown for this product, so we're looking into it.
We added the file-per-chapter version last night.
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Chief Technical Officer
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any way to tell how much longer on the shipment Ross? So i can stop haunting my inbox depressingly?
Last I heard, the warehouse guys were hoping to polish off the subscription shipments today (with the exception of stuff needing customer attention, like failed credit cards, bad addresses, and that sort of thing.)
However, when you started your sub, you chose to have us hold it to ship with your *next* subscription shipment to save on shipping costs. If that's not what you really wanted, you can go to your My Subscriptions page and choose to have us ship it as soon as possible instead.
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Creative Director
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Noticed a problem: the spell "vermin shape II" allows you to change into a Tiny or Large vermin. It gives stat adjustments for a Large vermin shape, but not Tiny.
Oops... some missing text there. This spell's getting reprinted in the Inner Sea World Guide with the missing text intact. In the meantime, here you go! (It's basically the same thing that happens when you cast beast shape II to become a Tiny animal.)
Tiny vermin: If you take the form of a Tiny vermin, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Socothbenoth's obedience is to achieve sexual release and defile a page from a Lawful Good deity's holy text.Okay, I'll ask: what is Socothbenoth's obedience?
For that matter, do we get obediences for my favorite demon ladies, Lamashtu and Jezelda?
So, basically it's the same as what his thaumaturges had to do in the Book of Fiends? Nice touch.
But now I can see a temple of Iomedae wondering why all the local demon cultists keep showing up to buy new copies of the Acts while making eyes at the female paladins...
There's two pages on Lamashtu and one on Jezelda. Both have obediences. Lamashtu's involves either engaging in sex with the intent of impregnating someone / being impregnated or killing something that has been alive less than a week. Jezelda's involves either prayers below the moon or the sacrifice of an intelligent member of your own race, tearing out its throat with your teeth and feeding on the body.
So Lamashtu's obedience is basically just doing the sort of things her worshippers like to do the rest of the time, and with Jezelda... that one obedience of hers (prayers beneath the moon) sounds fairly tame for a demon. But the other sounds very appropriate for the chaotic evil queen of werewolves.
Thank you, Lord Gadigan; you are a gentleman and a scholar.
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Socothbenoth's obedience is to achieve sexual release and defile a page from a Lawful Good deity's holy text.
Since 1982 my (mostly npc) Clerics of Hiisi ('god of Evil' from 1st Ed Deities and Demigods) were required to fill the insides of thier shoes with pages from the holy books of all other deities (good, evil, neutral), as well as using said pages whenever they went to use 'the little priests room'.
Some guys just don't play well with others.
Nice to see that Orcus is not taking an active hand in Golarion due to his plans on 'other worlds' taking up much of his time.
A nice tip of the hat to Clark and the Necromancer games(RIP) crew
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Oh go back to sleep
Socothbenoth's obedience is to achieve sexual release and defile a page from a Lawful Good deity's holy text.
Nice link this obedience has got there, though I consider this childish even by my standards.
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Creative Director
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Nice to see that Orcus is not taking an active hand in Golarion due to his plans on 'other worlds' taking up much of his time.
A nice tip of the hat to Clark and the Necromancer games(RIP) crew
It's also and as much of a tip of the hat to Wizards of the Coast, of course; they've done a LOT with Orcus over the past three decades.
Between WotC and Necromancer Games, Orcus has had plenty of attention. He still periodically gets up to trouble in Golarion, of course, but we wanted to have him NOT be as active here precisely because he's been so active in numerous other campaign settings.
Seemed logical to maintain all of the Book of Fiends obediances since those rules are open anyway, which is why we even have obediances in the book.So, basically it's the same as what his thaumaturges had to do in the Book of Fiends? Nice touch.
So then, is the new PrC basically a Pathfinder-ized version of the Book of Fiends Thaumaturge?
So then, is the new PrC basically a Pathfinder-ized version of the Book of Fiends Thaumaturge?Seemed logical to maintain all of the Book of Fiends obediances since those rules are open anyway, which is why we even have obediances in the book.So, basically it's the same as what his thaumaturges had to do in the Book of Fiends? Nice touch.
They get some demonic boons, some bonuses, can turn into a demonic thing for 10 minutes (at the very end) and summon some succubi to serve him (other demons, too, but who will want that?)
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Creative Director
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So then, is the new PrC basically a Pathfinder-ized version of the Book of Fiends Thaumaturge?Seemed logical to maintain all of the Book of Fiends obediances since those rules are open anyway, which is why we even have obediances in the book.So, basically it's the same as what his thaumaturges had to do in the Book of Fiends? Nice touch.
Nope. It's its own prestige class; as mentioned above, they focus on gaining their powers by letting a demon possess them. My original design for the prestige class was such that it's pretty much open for ANY spellcaster class, so the Book of Fiends thaumaturge should be a cool class to start up with before multiclassing into the demoniac prestige class; certainly, the fact that both classes use the obediances makes it a pretty logical choice.
But it's not meant at all to replace the Book of Fiends base class. Because we've used that class in adventures before, and are likely to do so again in the future.
They get some demonic boons, some bonuses, can turn into a demonic thing for 10 minutes (at the very end) and summon some succubi to serve him (other demons, too, but who will want that?)
So then, is the new PrC basically a Pathfinder-ized version of the Book of Fiends Thaumaturge?
Thanks for the lowdown on what can be expected from this PrC. It looks so very cool. And summon succubi servants? Hmmm, I being to see what makes the Abyss so seductive. ;)
Though a part of me shudders to wonder what succubi of Lamashtu and Jezelda look like. Sexy gnoll and werewolf demon-women?
Nope. It's its own prestige class; as mentioned above, they focus on gaining their powers by letting a demon possess them. My original design for the prestige class was such that it's pretty much open for ANY spellcaster class, so the Book of Fiends thaumaturge should be a cool class to start up with before multiclassing into the demoniac prestige class; certainly, the fact that both classes use the obediances makes it a pretty logical choice.
But it's not meant at all to replace the Book of Fiends base class. Because we've used that class in adventures before, and are likely to do so again in the future.
Thanks for the information on this. And hmm, they gain their powers by letting a demon possess them? I now have a very nasty idea about how to use a certain published NPC if I ever get the chance...
And nice (?) to know we can still use the thaumaturge, eveb if it's a bit underpowered by Pathfinder standards.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Sleep deprivation leads to funny results. I was reading this line "since their attentions have traditionally been focused on other worlds than Golarion, they are not detailed in this book."
My addled brain read it as "since their attorneys have been traditionally been focused..."
Love that cover art.
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More than one piece of art is pixelated at the edges, as if it was a lower-quality web version that ended up in the book. I'm thinking of the four pictures in the "Demonic Horde" chapter, on pages 55, 57, 59 and 61. Pazuzu, on page 23, looks somehow out-of-focus.
I'm not obsessive about the art -- I wish more people cared less about it so that products could be cheaper, in fact -- but it was jarring enough even for me to notice.
I like the book as a whole, it's given me an idea for some adventure on the way to the giant-slaying in RotRL#4.
Sleep deprivation leads to funny results. I was reading this line "since their attentions have traditionally been focused on other worlds than Golarion, they are not detailed in this book."
My addled brain read it as "since their attorneys have been traditionally been focused..."
I thought it was the Nine Hells that had all the lawyers...?
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Chief Technical Officer
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More than one piece of art is pixelated at the edges, as if it was a lower-quality web version that ended up in the book. I'm thinking of the four pictures in the "Demonic Horde" chapter, on pages 55, 57, 59 and 61. Pazuzu, on page 23, looks somehow out-of-focus.
Sadly, we didn't notice that on the digital proof, so we only found out about it when we got our first printed copies in. We're now looking for that issue specifically in all future products. (I think you identified all of the pages with the problem—it's not that bad, but it's not what we wanted to see.)
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Sadly, we didn't notice that on the digital proof, so we only found out about it when we got our first printed copies in. We're now looking for that issue specifically in all future products. (I think you identified all of the pages with the problem—it's not that bad, but it's not what we wanted to see.)
Yeah, it's not terrible, or anything like that. On the bright side, it's a very good book.
Though a part of me shudders to wonder what succubi of Lamashtu and Jezelda look like. Sexy gnoll and werewolf demon-women?
Well, succubi can look however you like.
Of course, if you're a follower of Lamashtu, you want monstrousities, so a gnoll might be the tamest option. Maybe Scylla without the charme.
And Jezela: Depends on what you feel like right now. Human-like? Animal-like? Hybrid-like? I think those succies can deliver.
And nice (?) to know we can still use the thaumaturge, eveb if it's a bit underpowered by Pathfinder standards.
Hm... Someone should update it.