Is the Darklight Sisterhood in there? If so I'm definitely getting it!!!!Sadly no, that was my reaction to. I believe it was James who said they will like not get anymore information. But thats been awhile, so maybe he changed his mind.
I never thought I'd be so sad over saving 20 bucks plus shipping....*sniff*
Is the Darklight Sisterhood in there? If so I'm definitely getting it!!!!
The DLS isn't in the book (to quote James, "we've probably said all we'll ever be saying about the Darklight Sisterhood"). However, you could easily use the material in the book to build your own two-page faction entry for them--there are many, many examples of neat things you can get as faction rewards.
Creative Director
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May I ask why no Darklight Sisterhood? Is it a flavor thing, or a copyright kind of thing?
They're too simplistic, for one. And for another they don't do anything new that we don't already have. And we at Paizo aren't really happy with the fact that the Darklight Sisterhood's entire purpose and motivation and focus is to "be anti-Pathfinders." That's not flavor we want in Golarion, especially since the Pathfinders already have an established nemesis group with the Aspis Consortium. And the way we've developed Cheliax and the way we WANT Cheliax to remain is such that it makes no sense for them to expend so much time and resources to build an "anti-Pathfinder" group. Cheliax is one of our most complex nations, and reducing them to such a boring cliched mustache-twirling kind of evil that does evil things just to be evil (which is the whole point of building the Darklight Sisterhood) is, frankly, boring. Frankly, Cheliax is powerful enough that such a direct opposition to the Pathfinders is kind of ridiculous and goofy. ALSO: setting Cheliax up to be "ANTI PATHFINDERS" is self-defeating, in that Cheliax is not only a MAJOR region in Golarion (and setting it up so that they hate hate hate the Pathfinders makes our keystone organization not something that can exist in one of our favorite nations, which is dumb), but also, it makes no sense from a Pathfinder Society standpoint, which DOES have a strong interaction with the Pathfinders. The way in which Cheliax interacts with the Pathfinder Society in the PFS, and they way they interact with the Pathfinders in the Council of Thieves Adventure Path is the way we prefer things.
So to sum up; the Darklight Sitserhood is too simplistic and out of character for Golarion, and what the Darklight Sisterhood does is already being done better by other elements in the world.
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Why not just change there focus then? I mean it wouldn't be the first time you guys took something and changed it a little. Why not have them as more of spies/assassin group that works for Cheliax? I only bring this up cause in my games thats what I have them be instead of anti-pathfinder. To me it fits Cheliax and they would likely be good at it, considering what little there is about them so far.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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See, I've always understood the Sisterhood as a kind of ditzy organization, precisely because of the kinds of objections James raises, in the same way Harmony is ditzy yet still a credible threat in Buffy. Even the name doesn't quite make sense.
They're just a little too dangerous for the party to be comfortable dismissing them as a joke. But while they certainly make a name for themselves among pathfinders, they're too politically ineffectual for anyone in Cheliax to exert much effort in suppressing them. Cheliax is a large region, and there's room for all sorts.
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Creative Director
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Why not just change there focus then? I mean it wouldn't be the first time you guys took something and changed it a little. Why not have them as more of spies/assassin group that works for Cheliax? I only bring this up cause in my games thats what I have them be instead of anti-pathfinder. To me it fits Cheliax and they would likely be good at it, considering what little there is about them so far.
Because we already have those kinds of organizations, and it's generally not a good idea to change an organization's purpose once it's established. It's better to just let it go. This way, folks who DO like the Darklight Sisterhood can keep using the group in their home games in the way they were originally presented. If we were to change how they work and what they do, then we'd run a really good chance of annoying anyone who liked the group before and are no more guaranteed to pick up new fans for the new group than if we just made up an entirely new group.
This is the same reason we're not doing a new version of Demogorgon for our world, in fact. Even if content is something we don't want to pursue or simply can't pursue for legal reasons, we don't want to "overwrite" those concepts for those who use them in their home games.
If you're looking for a matriachal assassin/spy group, we have the Red Mantis. If you're looking for an anti-pathfinder group, we have the Aspis Consortium. If you're looking for a Cheliax organization to take care of situations, we have Hellknights and the Church of Asmodeus and the House of Thrune and several other organizations (such as the Sisters of the Golden Erinyes).
And if you want to use the Darklight Sisterhood... you still can. We just won't be providing any official support or plots for them going forward.
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Creative Director
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See, I've always understood the Sisterhood as a kind of ditzy organization, precisely because of the kinds of objections James raises, in the same way Harmony is ditzy yet still a credible threat in Buffy. Even the name doesn't quite make sense.
Precisely. And "ditzy" is not an adjective that we really want associated with Cheliax.
My past life as a Forgotten Realms fan tells me that sometimes its best that when the designers don't particularly have a passion for a given element, that they just don't mention it rather than:
A. "Refocus" it into something that no longer resembles what the original was (and thus probably doesn't do much for fans of the given element), or . . .
B. "Honor" it by giving it some kind of spectacular destruction in canon, using the logic that somehow if you were a fan, just seeing it mentioned one last time in canon sources will make up for the fact that the last mention obliterates the element as well.
So, hey, for what its worth, I'm all for just letting things that don't "work" for the guys at Paizo fading into the background.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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...setting Cheliax up to be "ANTI PATHFINDERS" is self-defeating, in that Cheliax is not only a MAJOR region in Golarion (and setting it up so that they hate hate hate the Pathfinders makes our keystone organization not something that can exist in one of our favorite nations, which is dumb...
With a nod to that sentiment, I'd like to note that in my version of Golarion, the Pathfinder Society really is hated in Ustalav. Because it's common legend among the peasants and townsfolk there, that the Pathfinders make it their business to break open sealed tombs, make a grab for archaeological goodies, kill a few guardians, and then split, leaving the terrible aftermath of the tomb violations for the locals to deal with.
Really, are there any sane people in Ustalav who think it would indeed be a splendid idea to grab a spade and go mucking around in long-forgotten gravesites?
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James, I did not know the Red Mantis was a matriarchal organization. Is this because of the urban legend that the female mantis bites off her mate's head? That is only when the female is under stress in captivity, and not provided food; they have quite elaborate mating rituals, actually, in which death is seldom involved.
Also, my Campaign Setting book says Achaekek is "He Who Walks in Blood" so I figured a cult headed* by a male deity wouldn't be matriarchal.
*pun!
Don't listen to her James! She's a liar! And she bit my head off!
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Creative Director
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James, I did not know the Red Mantis was a matriarchal organization. Is this because of the urban legend that the female mantis bites off her mate's head? That is only when the female is under stress in captivity, and not provided food; they have quite elaborate mating rituals, actually, in which death is seldom involved.
Also, my Campaign Setting book says Achaekek is "He Who Walks in Blood" so I figured a cult headed* by a male deity wouldn't be matriarchal.
*pun!
It's partially because of the mantis urban legend, and partially because of the way things worked out. (PREPARE FOR DEEP THEMATIC THEORY FOR ADVENTURE PATHS!)
Curse of the Crimson Throne Spoilers:
Curse of the Crimson Throne had several themes in it; one being the presence of the color red, but another being the fact that a lot of the people in positions of power were female. You have the queen on one hand, and the commander of the city guard opposing her. The commander of the queen's shocktroopers (the Gray Maidens) is a woman, while the scapegoat she tries to blame for her troubles and who becomes a symbol of hope for the city is a woman. The male NPCs in the AP tend to either be forced to work in hiding or otherwise in the shadow of their female counterparts. Only when the adventure moves OUT of Korvosa do we start seeing male characters take on more aggressive roles with the Shoanti and Kazavon and so on—although it's worth noting that even here females have strong roles (such as the moon maidens, or of course the sword Serithtial). In all of this, the Red Mantis serves as further "on-theme" material with the use of the color red and strong female roles inspired not by the science of the praying mantis but the legend of the praying mantis.
In addition, the Red Mantis (Most of the plot for Crimson Throne, in fact) comes from my homebrew campaign. In my homebrew game, I don't really have much in the way of drow, but I'm a sucker for nostalgia so I wanted to have a matriarchal society of bad-asses who use a man-eating arachnoid symbol/theme. The drow have the black widow, so for me I decided to go with red and mantises. They ALSO owe quite a bit of inspiration to Greyhawk's Scarlet Brotherhood, of course. I was basically able to scratch TWO nostalgia itches at once by making them what they were.
So yeah; the Red Mantis is a matriarchal society. Also: while Achaekek himself is male, his relationship with his worshipers is complex; he doesn't really care about them, and his worshipers don't see him as a god to worship as much as an ideal to emulate. The fact that his main cult is matriarchal while he's a guy is just another way to manifest the unusual disconnect in a society that doesn't really worship a deity as much as it tries to emulate it.
May I ask why no Darklight Sisterhood? Is it a flavor thing, or a copyright kind of thing?They're too simplistic, for one. And for another they don't do anything new that we don't already have. And we at Paizo aren't really happy with the fact that the Darklight Sisterhood's entire purpose and motivation and focus is to "be anti-Pathfinders." That's not flavor we want in Golarion, especially since the Pathfinders already have an established nemesis group with the Aspis Consortium. And the way we've developed Cheliax and the way we WANT Cheliax to remain is such that it makes no sense for them to expend so much time and resources to build an "anti-Pathfinder" group. Cheliax is one of our most complex nations, and reducing them to such a boring cliched mustache-twirling kind of evil that does evil things just to be evil (which is the whole point of building the Darklight Sisterhood) is, frankly, boring. Frankly, Cheliax is powerful enough that such a direct opposition to the Pathfinders is kind of ridiculous and goofy. ALSO: setting Cheliax up to be "ANTI PATHFINDERS" is self-defeating, in that Cheliax is not only a MAJOR region in Golarion (and setting it up so that they hate hate hate the Pathfinders makes our keystone organization not something that can exist in one of our favorite nations, which is dumb), but also, it makes no sense from a Pathfinder Society standpoint, which DOES have a strong interaction with the Pathfinders. The way in which Cheliax interacts with the Pathfinder Society in the PFS, and they way they interact with the Pathfinders in the Council of Thieves Adventure Path is the way we prefer things.
So to sum up; the Darklight Sitserhood is too simplistic and out of character for Golarion, and what the Darklight Sisterhood does is already being done better by other elements in the world.
Understandable, to an extent, but wholly disappointing. I will endeavor to keep this secret from my monthly Darklight Sisterhood group, and I will post what I have homebrewed for them in another part of this forum, where I will fully invite feedback and such.
Darklight Sisterhood, ditzy? And associated with a Buffy character, even if only in one person's pov? My head is spinning here...
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Creative Director
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See from all the reading I got I just never got the vibe from the Red Mantis that it was a matriarchal society. Maybe I just missed it or something. I always assumed they was a equally run assassin cult.
No big deal! The Red Mantis isn't actually really strongly matriarchal in the same way the drow are—they're actually pretty mellow about it. But you'll note that whenever we stat up a leader type for the Red Mantis, including talk about the ruler of the organization, that those characters are female, and that we've actually never illustrated a male red mantis with his helmet off because in that society they're kind of the "faceless stormtroopers" who fill the lower ranks.
But that doesn't preclude us some day having a high-ranking male Red Mantis dude some day at all.
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Wrote stuff about the Red Mantis.
Were you aware that there really is a mantis god among the Khoi and San people of South Africa? Is that why the cult originates in Garund?
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Creative Director
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Understandable, to an extent, but wholly disappointing. I will endeavor to keep this secret from my monthly Darklight Sisterhood group, and I will post what I have homebrewed for them in another part of this forum, where I will fully invite feedback and such.
Darklight Sisterhood, ditzy? And associated with a Buffy character, even if only in one person's pov? My head is spinning here...
Honestly... that's why I've traditionally been pretty brief and curt on explaining why we don't do more with the Darklight Sisterhood. I'm aware that some folks like the group, after all, and so my normal reaction is to just say, "We got no plans for them," and leave it at that. I guess this latest round of questioning finally just hit critical mass for me and convinced me to lay it all out on the table in full disclosure to let folks know why we do things the way we do.
In any event, its because of folks like you who DO like the Darklight Sisterhood that, in print, we're simply letting them go rather than:
1) Rebuilding them into something they're not, or
2) Expending our energy on something we're not really passionate about and thus would not give the subject the attention it deserved.
By retiring the group from official canon, we let those of you who DO like the group keep using them without feeling like we're changing things out from under you, but at the same time allowing us to focus all our energy on the parts of the setting we ARE passionate about. We can't detail everything in Golarion, and it doesn't make sense for us to set aside detailing the majority of the world we like to spend time on parts that we're not as keen on continuing work on.
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Creative Director
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Wrote stuff about the Red Mantis.Were you aware that there really is a mantis god among the Khoi and San people of South Africa? Is that why the cult originates in Garund?
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I'm aware that mantises have religious significance to many folks (they're called PRAYING mantises, after all!), but I wasn't aware of the Khoi or San mythology.
The Red Mantis cult is placed in the tropics simply because that's where they were based in my homebrew game, because that element of them was standing in for the Scarlet Brotherhood (who, in Greyhawk, are based in the tropics).
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Cool! It's like parallel design, or parallel evolution. Very intersting that, by building away from Faerun, you were actually building closer to the real world (but of course, as you say, praying mantises have universal religious significance on some level, because of their evolutionary design).
Edit: and by Faerun I mean Greyhawk.
For what it's worth, J.J., I love to read these posts that give us an insider's peek into the creative process. They are very interesting and even instructive.
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See from all the reading I got I just never got the vibe from the Red Mantis that it was a matriarchal society. Maybe I just missed it or something. I always assumed they was a equally run assassin cult.No big deal! The Red Mantis isn't actually really strongly matriarchal in the same way the drow are—they're actually pretty mellow about it. But you'll note that whenever we stat up a leader type for the Red Mantis, including talk about the ruler of the organization, that those characters are female, and that we've actually never illustrated a male red mantis with his helmet off because in that society they're kind of the "faceless stormtroopers" who fill the lower ranks.
But that doesn't preclude us some day having a high-ranking male Red Mantis dude some day at all.
Thats cool and honestly no I never noticed they was all females until you pointed it out. I just never connected the dots. :)
Understandable, to an extent, but wholly disappointing. I will endeavor to keep this secret from my monthly Darklight Sisterhood group, and I will post what I have homebrewed for them in another part of this forum, where I will fully invite feedback and such.
Darklight Sisterhood, ditzy? And associated with a Buffy character, even if only in one person's pov? My head is spinning here...Honestly... that's why I've traditionally been pretty brief and curt on explaining why we don't do more with the Darklight Sisterhood. I'm aware that some folks like the group, after all, and so my normal reaction is to just say, "We got no plans for them," and leave it at that. I guess this latest round of questioning finally just hit critical mass for me and convinced me to lay it all out on the table in full disclosure to let folks know why we do things the way we do.
In any event, its because of folks like you who DO like the Darklight Sisterhood that, in print, we're simply letting them go rather than:
1) Rebuilding them into something they're not, or
2) Expending our energy on something we're not really passionate about and thus would not give the subject the attention it deserved.By retiring the group from official canon, we let those of you who DO like the group keep using them without feeling like we're changing things out from under you, but at the same time allowing us to focus all our energy on the parts of the setting we ARE passionate about. We can't detail everything in Golarion, and it doesn't make sense for us to set aside detailing the majority of the world we like to spend time on parts that we're not as keen on continuing work on.
Completely cool, and in fact I thank you for this. As a Dragonlance fan, I have all too often been on the recieving end of occasionally terrifying shock and awe when SERIOUS CHANGES happen to a beloved group/character/setting. Your secret is safe with me regarding the Sisterhood. I'll review my stuff and post it later on this evening- I would welcome your feedback, if you have the time.
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Huh, now, this book is a major surprise.
The moment "Faction Guide" appeared on the radar I kinda burned in my mind an image of a book with extended writeups on 6-10 major factions. And I was thinking, what's the point ? Pathfinders get their own book, Hellknights have 2 AP articles, Red Mantis were covered in parts as well, there's going to be a hell of overlap and not enough space for more obscure/new factions. I was entering the "meh" zone until I got the PDF.
I am surprised. In a very good way ! The affiliation system from 3.5 PHB2 always struck me as a great idea with not enough development. What Paizo did is they took the PFS mechanics and applied them to over 20 factions, including several that I never heard of before. That's cool and smart, marrying existing mechanics with new application. Finally I have carrots to incite my players to join organizations.
There is however one question I have: how does membership with a faction interact with gaining levels in Prestige Classes associated with that faction ? I'm thinking primarily of Hellknights, Pathfinders and Red Mantis here. If I join Red Mantis as a faction, at which point is my standing high enough to pick leves in the PrC ?
My only quibble with the book is that as a Chronicles book it is labeled as a GM book, while it really is a player book.
So to sum up; the Darklight Sitserhood is too simplistic and out of character for Golarion, and what the Darklight Sisterhood does is already being done better by other elements in the world.
This makes me curious - how the heck did they end up in Golarion and the Campaign Setting in the first place? Like... really, given what James said in his post.
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Arcanamirium
Aspis Consortium
Bellflower Network
Bloodstone Swords
Church of Razmir
Eagle Knights
Greeen Faith
Hellknights
Kitharodian Academy
Kusari-Gama
Lantern Bearers
Lion Blades
Mendev Crusaders
Ninth Batallion
Old Cults
Pathfinder Society
Prophets of Kalistrade
Red Mantis Assassins
Religious Factions
Risen Guard
Shackles Pirates
Ulfen Guard
Varisian Wanderers
Whispering Way
On p. 27 it says that elf gates are one-way, but when we've seen them in play (e.g. Pathfinder 16, pp. 11-12) they've clearly been two-way. Is this a retcon or just a mistake?
On p. 27 it says that elf gates are one-way, but when we've seen them in play (e.g. Pathfinder 16, pp. 11-12) they've clearly been two-way. Is this a retcon or just a mistake?
It's neither. Elfgates are two-way, but each gate requires a key, and it may not be the same key.
So if key1 opens a connection from elfgate A to elfgate B, you may need key2 to open a connection from B to A. If you transport from A to B, while the gate remains open you can walk back through it to location A, but once the gate closes, you need to reopen it on the B side... which requires a key, and may not be the same key that opens it at A. So if you travel from A to B, and then have an adventure near B that takes several days, the connection isn't sitting open that whole time, allowing anyone to walk through in either direction, and if you want to gate from B to A you have to open the gate again, which requires the proper key at B.
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Ah, so it's down to DM's call with some guidelines present. Cool ! I like this soft divorce between PrC as a "material" membership and the faction system as "formal" membership. One can be a renegade Hellknight, an ex-Pathfinder (and thus within the PrC while outside of the organization), or perhaps a sorcerer Red Mantis or a cleric Eagle Knight (outside the PrC, within the organization) after all. One more reason to love this book !
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Creative Director
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So to sum up; the Darklight Sitserhood is too simplistic and out of character for Golarion, and what the Darklight Sisterhood does is already being done better by other elements in the world.This makes me curious - how the heck did they end up in Golarion and the Campaign Setting in the first place? Like... really, given what James said in his post.
Because we didn't have time to properly read/approve everything in the campaign setting, and because the folks who WERE organizing the book had some disconnects between what Paizo wanted and what Paizo did not want.
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Creative Director
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There is however one question I have: how does membership with a faction interact with gaining levels in Prestige Classes associated with that faction ? I'm thinking primarily of Hellknights, Pathfinders and Red Mantis here. If I join Red Mantis as a faction, at which point is my standing high enough to pick leves in the PrC ?
The faction rules are specifically designed to be self-contained. They don't really interact with other rules at all, because we don't want to create a complicated web of having to track all sorts of different rules and requirements across dozens of different books.
You don't need to have ANY standing in a faction to take a level in a faction-related prestige class, in other words. You can certainly institute a house rule that says you need a certain amount of prestige before you're allowed to take levels in a related prestige class, but we leave that up to individual GMs to decide.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Because we didn't have time to properly read/approve everything in the campaign setting, and because the folks who WERE organizing the book had some disconnects between what Paizo wanted and what Paizo did not want.So to sum up; the Darklight Sitserhood is too simplistic and out of character for Golarion, and what the Darklight Sisterhood does is already being done better by other elements in the world.This makes me curious - how the heck did they end up in Golarion and the Campaign Setting in the first place? Like... really, given what James said in his post.
That's how we got the Slor!
(ducks and hides)
But seriously, the idea of Golarion is probably more refined and unified as Paizo has had a chance to produce a lot of products and plan a lot of ideas and to see things that do and don't fit how they'd like the world to be. In that process, some early experiments or through-the-cracks-slippers, like some of the quirky things in the early mods, like the wand-rifle or the 250-mile dimension lock in the Demon Within adventure, turned out to be something that didn't fit as the whole world really came together.
It's neither. Elfgates are two-way, but each gate requires a key, and it may not be the same key.
Good answer. I like it. Thank-you.
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Arcanamirium
Aspis Consortium
Bellflower Network
Bloodstone Swords
Church of Razmir
Eagle Knights
Greeen Faith
Hellknights
Kitharodian Academy
Kusari-Gama
Lantern Bearers
Lion Blades
Mendev Crusaders
Ninth Batallion
Old Cults
Pathfinder Society
Prophets of Kalistrade
Red Mantis Assassins
Religious Factions
Risen Guard
Shackles Pirates
Ulfen Guard
Varisian Wanderers
Whispering Way
Wow, I just assumed (yeah, my bad) that this was going to be a book about the five factions of the PFS play, Andoran, Cheliax, Osirian, Qadiran and Taldor.
Acanamirium, Green Faith, Hellknights, Old Cults, Risen Guard and Whispering Way totally make me sit up and go 'ooh.'
Because we didn't have time to properly read/approve everything in the campaign setting, and because the folks who WERE organizing the book had some disconnects between what Paizo wanted and what Paizo did not want.
curious, will any of these disconnects be corrected in the new Campaign Book?
I believe that most if not all off them will be excised from Golarion in the new World Guide.
I find the thematic background of CotCT to be very interesting, keep it up.
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Creative Director
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Because we didn't have time to properly read/approve everything in the campaign setting, and because the folks who WERE organizing the book had some disconnects between what Paizo wanted and what Paizo did not want.curious, will any of these disconnects be corrected in the new Campaign Book?
That's one of several reasons we're revising the Campaign Setting rather than reprinting it. And it's worth pointing out that there's really NOT a lot of those disconnects in the world, actually; the current Campaign Setting book is a really solid and award-winning book, after all! :)
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I still kind of like the Darklight Sisterhood, although not so much as real rivals to the Pathfinder Society and more like what was discussed here.
Hot damn!
Getting into the Risen Guard should be easy for PC's! :D