Pathfinder Adventure Path: Kingmaker Player's Guide (PFRPG) PDF

tdewitt274 wrote:

Do I smell a Web Enhancement? Please? : )

Seriously, how often does Mr. Jacobs have to say "Web Enhancements create more work for little reward, so no Web Enhancements until we've got a solid buffer on the workload, so in about 2032." before folks will stop asking for them?

Or, it could be, by chance, that someone doesn't scour the boards and review every post available to know that The Powers That Be have already stated that they won't do Web Enhancements. I apologize for my asking, not knowing that the topic has been brought up, apparently, a considerable amount of times.

That being said, I'm sure that some budding freelancer/fan will pop up and write something that will incorporate the new classes into the fold that will no doubt enhance others experiences.

That being said, I'm sure that some budding freelancer/fan will pop up and write something that will incorporate the new classes into the fold that will no doubt enhance others experiences.

And I, and possibly Mr. Jacobs, will enthusiastically buy and use that material!

I didn't mean to offend, Mr. Dewitt, although I did mean to be snippy, because every time Paizo staff says, "We had to cut X for space", some bright young thing pops in and says something along the lines of "Ooo, so when's the Web Enhancement with that material coming out?"

A player came up with a feat he wants to use for his character; a cleric of Erastil. I'm thinking on allowing it.

Frontier Shepard (regional: River Kingdoms)
You have spent much of your time traveling between small hamlets and farms throughout the River Kingdoms helping those in need with your services. Often you had to survive outdoors on your wits and reflexes when between villages. Your independent nature give you Perception and Survival as class skills.

This trait is significantly more powerful than the other traits presented in the kingmaker player's guide. Two skills as class skills effectively gives +3 to two skills. I don't think I've seen any printed skill-related traits that do this, and furthermore, the other kingmaker skill related traits seem very weak by comparision.

Also, keep in mind that Perception is probably the most often used skill, and Survival is the key skill for the exploration mechanic.

I'd make him pick one or the other.

Ken

Read through this this weekend - love it!

Errata: Unless it's going to be moved, I'd suggest updating the PDF to point to www.paizo.com/traits, instead of just www.paizo.com. Also "devlop" on one of the last pages.

Tim Statler wrote:

Frontier Shepard (regional: River Kingdoms)

You have spent much of your time traveling between small hamlets and farms throughout the River Kingdoms helping those in need with your services. Often you had to survive outdoors on your wits and reflexes when between villages. Your independent nature give you Perception and Survival as class skills.

This trait is significantly more powerful than the other traits presented in the kingmaker player's guide. Two skills as class skills effectively gives +3 to two skills. I don't think I've seen any printed skill-related traits that do this, and furthermore, the other kingmaker skill related traits seem very weak by comparison.

Also, keep in mind that Perception is probably the most often used skill, and Survival is the key skill for the exploration mechanic.

Ken is right that the trait is a bit strong, though it's more due to the precise skills involved. There are traits that give +1 to two skills, but only grant one as a class skill. They are usually less-useful skills. More useful skills are typically +1 & Class only.

As a comparison, I would say a feat that grants +1 and class to both would be balanced.

I'd suggest sticking with the standard setups, but not worrying about the power too much for a campaign trait, and give both skills a +1 but only pick one for a class skill.

This trait is significantly more powerful than the other traits presented in the kingmaker player's guide. Two skills as class skills effectively gives +3 to two skills. I don't think I've seen any printed skill-related traits that do this, and furthermore, the other kingmaker skill related traits seem very weak by comparison.

Ken is right that the trait is a bit strong, though it's more due to the precise skills involved. There are traits that give +1 to two skills, but only grant one as a class skill. They are usually less-useful skills. More useful skills are typically +1 & Class only.

As a comparison, I would say a feat that grants +1 and class to both would be balanced.

I'd suggest sticking with the standard setups, but not worrying about the power too much for a campaign trait, and give both skills a +1 but only pick one for a class skill.

I have to strongly disagree. There are plenty of traits that give you a class skill and give +1 to it. Those are stronger traits because they increase the maximum you can possibly have for that skill. Having more class skills gives you more choice, but you still have the exact same amount of skill bonuses as before. If you are taking perception and survival that means you aren't taking 2 other skills. All of the classes that gain perception with this trait (cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer, and wizard) are 2 + int classes. So their skill selection will be a tight choice.

Diversity of options with no actual bonus is not something an optimizer would choose, so how can you say it is "too powerful"? Povery Stricken (+1 survival, is a class skill) is far superior, especially for the other 6 classes which already have perception as a class skill.

Something like "turn the extra 3,000 words from an adventure into a web enhancement" isn't figured into our work budget at all. Something like that would be stacked ON TOP of everything we're already doing, and would thus cause disruptions to work flow. That's a pretty huge difference when compared to a web enhancement like an AP Player's Guide that's fully integrated into our work flow.

That is why you make it one of the rounds in the next RPG Super star.

I have to strongly disagree. There are plenty of traits that give you a class skill and give +1 to it. Those are stronger traits because they increase the maximum you can possibly have for that skill. Having more class skills gives you more choice, but you still have the exact same amount of skill bonuses as before. If you are taking perception and survival that means you aren't taking 2 other skills. All of the classes that gain perception with this trait (cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer, and wizard) are 2 + int classes. So their skill selection will be a tight choice.

Diversity of options with no actual bonus is not something an optimizer would choose, so how can you say it is "too powerful"? Povery Stricken (+1 survival, is a class skill) is far superior, especially for the other 6 classes which already have perception as a class skill.

Your argument would have been correct in 3.5, but in Pathfinder having something as a class skill actually gives you a bonus to it. So it isn't just an increased number of choices...they're actually getting a total of +6 to their skills.

Remember, Traits are supposed to be half as powerful as a feat. I think this one is too good.

Ken

Not necessarily. If you never put a rank in a class skill, you never get the +3 bonus. But the new system allows characters to add 1 rank to every class skill and treat each as if they had spent 4 skill points under the 3.5 system.

Not necessarily. If you never put a rank in a class skill, you never get the +3 bonus.

Than way take the trait? Its not like its a class skill where you have have it as part of your class. It simply is there for the mechanical/storytelling benefit. (IME, mechanical trumps story far to often.)

yoda8myhead wrote:

Not necessarily. If you never put a rank in a class skill, you never get the +3 bonus.

Than way take the trait? Its not like its a class skill where you have have it as part of your class. It simply is there for the mechanical/storytelling benefit. (IME, mechanical trumps story far to often.)

Not getting the +3 without spending a rank isn't a function of this trait, but rather the PFRPG skill system. I'm just saying that you could take the trait, receive both skills as class skills and (if you're a cleric or fighter with low Intelligence) never get a bonus from them. This is really only unbalancing to highly skilled characters who have the points to spare one or two to get a net +8 between the two skills without sacrificing too much on their regular class skills. For a class like ranger, druid, or barbarian, though, getting these two as class skills isn't that big of a deal.

Note that he said;

A player came up with a feat he wants to use for his character; a cleric of Erastil.

As a Trait, two (very useful) skills becoming class skills might well be overkill. As a Feat, it's pretty tame.

The only time I'd allow a Trait to give two class skills would be if they are two pre-chosen Knowledge or Perform skills.

I agree, a feat that did this would be fine.

The OP calls this a feat in his title then a trait further down in the text. It's written up much like the other regional traits. If he in fact meant for this to be a feat, sorry for my overreaction!

Ken

Note that he said;

Tim Statler wrote:

A player came up with a feat he wants to use for his character; a cleric of Erastil.

As a Trait, two (very useful) skills becoming class skills might well be overkill. As a Feat, it's pretty tame.

The only time I'd allow a Trait to give two class skills would be if they are two pre-chosen Knowledge or Perform skills.

As a feat it is definitely weak. As a trait I don't think it is that strong. As a player, I'd rather re-theme poverty stricken (+1 survival, is a class skill) into a trait called "child of the forest" or some such. If your cleric (who likely has no more than 4 skill points a level) is spending points in survival or perception, he either dips in for a small bonus which becomes less and less meaningful over time (particularly for perception, as any stealthy enemy will have max ranks in stealth) or he's putting points into them every level, which means he isn't spending points in other skills like heal or diplomacy.

Either as a feat or a trait, it's not going to break the game. Perception and survival are skills that tend to help the entire party. The cleric of Erastil isn't going to be better at those skills than a full druid, ranger, or even barbarian, but if the party doesn't have any of those he can help take up the slack.

deinol, are you sure you aren't playing the PC in question? ;-)

Ken

The easiest way to handle it would be to make it +1 and a class skill to the player's choice between the two.

It was supposed to be a trait.

I also don't see it as overpowering. As they said above, to get anything from it, the player actually has to put points into it.

It's too much. No other trait gives two class skills, and most give +1 and a class skill or +1 to two skills but doesn't make either a class skill. 1 rank in each turns into +4/+4, a net gain of +6 to rolls.

Plus the two skills in question are arguably the two most important skills in the AP.

It was supposed to be a trait.

I also don't see it as overpowering. As they said above, to get anything from it, the player actually has to put points into it.

Traits are suppose to be the value of half a feat. There are feats that give +2 to two different skills. There are feats that give a +3 to a single skills. But what amounts to a +3 bonus to two skills would require two feats (or the equivalent of four traits).

I'd allow it with the following change:

Your independent nature give you a +1 bonus to Perception and Survival skills.

I still think it is overpowered for the purposes of this AP (since they are going to be two of the most used skills), but it is alot more balanced than having them be class skills.

Quick help request from a player who does not have access to the Campaign Setting guide. Could someone post the official stats for the Aldori dueling sword from the guide?

(my GM is not able to find it at the moment)

Thank you!

Quick help request from a player who does not have access to the Campaign Setting guide. Could someone post the official stats for the Aldori dueling sword from the guide?

Same as a longsword, but 20 gp, 3 lbs, and can be used with weapon finesse. If used with both hands, you can add 1.5x Str mod to damage.

where is the Aldori dueling sword in the campaign setting? I have scoured its pages but keep missing it. Page nuber please?

where is the Aldori dueling sword in the campaign setting? I have scoured its pages but keep missing it. Page nuber please?

P 209

The kingdom sheet looks cool and has me jazzed for this AP. This is going to cover something I have wanted for years. How to let the PC's get, control and build a kingdom of their own.

I agree completely! They attempted something like this with the old Birthright setting, and with the old Chivalry and Sorcery RPG. But this is going to be a fantastic addition to my campaign...I hope!

And how do we categorize this one?? Companion, Players Guide?

And how do we categorize this one?? Companion, Players Guide?

Player's Guide

WTF INCLUDING A FULLY DETAILED MAP ON THE REGION ON PAGE 11 OF THE PLAYERS GUIDE??!?!?!?!?!?!

I think the correct response internet protocol demands is

"OMG STFU N00B"

Which translates into "May I draw to your attention that your observations are incorrect, and therefore you can rest assured that all is well".

Effective language, that Internet.

;-)

This trait is significantly more powerful than the other traits presented in the kingmaker player's guide. Two skills as class skills effectively gives +3 to two skills.

By that logic, taking one level of expert is the single most overpowered thing you can do, since it gives you +3 in ten skills.

Since powergaming posts everywhere aren't flooded with characters taking one level of expert to achieve instant verse domination, I am confident that I'm on the right track when I say getting something as a class skill isn't the same as getting a flat +3 to it, and furthermore, that getting two skills (even two as useful as those) as class skills is that overpowered for a (campaign) trait (campaign traits are often a bit more powerful than regular traits).

Getting those buildings as single picture files (all wrapped up in an archive) would be quite helpful for those who are too lazy to do it by hand and use stuff like maptool.

Maptool can turn the city planning sheet into something a little closer to SimCity - without the Funzilla catastrophies, but with the easy drag & drop capabilities to quickly whip up a city.

sample

Note that the city on the sample picture is optimised for ideal franchise placement near the noble mansion and arena.

Hi,

Can the relationship of the Stolen Lands to the map of Brevoy be clarified? I'm thinking this is a rectangle somewhere between Pitax, Restov, and New Statven, but lining up the maps has been difficult. Or is the area more to the south of Restov? What I'm looking for is a way to handle travel, say, from Restov or New Stetven to the starting area.

A fine product, so the following are only small issues, but, what way do the rivers flow? And how do some cross mountains?

Thx!

Hi,

Can the relationship of the Stolen Lands to the map of Brevoy be clarified? I'm thinking this is a rectangle somewhere between Pitax, Restov, and New Statven, but lining up the maps has been difficult. Or is the area more to the south of Restov? What I'm looking for is a way to handle travel, say, from Restov or New Stetven to the starting area.

A fine product, so the following are only small issues, but, what way do the rivers flow? And how do some cross mountains?

Thx!

The trick with the stolen lands is that north isn't "up" on those maps. If you were to draw a long rectangle containing the stolen lands, it would be tilted, aimed up toward Numeria sort of.

Pitax is along the lowest edge along the bottom of the Stolen Land Maps. Restov is at the upper edge. These additional maps showing Restov and Pitax will be appearing in volumes #33 and #35 respectively.

Kingmaker assumes you're starting the game at Oleg's, but if you want to start at Restov and travel to Oleg's, that's a journey of about 100 miles. Again... the map in #33 will help. If you really want details there, you might just want to wait until you have #33 handy.

The rivers flow more or less to the south toward the Inner Sea. None of them pass through actual mountains, but several flow down out of the mountains.

The rivers flow more or less to the south toward the Inner Sea. None of them pass through actual mountains, but several flow up INTO the mountains.

Do rivers actually do that? I.e. flow upwards?

James Jacobs wrote:

The rivers flow more or less to the south toward the Inner Sea. None of them pass through actual mountains, but several flow up INTO the mountains.

Do rivers actually do that? I.e. flow upwards?

Nope. You have discovered that rarest of creatures: the messageboard error/typo. I'll edit my original post to clarify.

As a subscriber, I used to receive the player's guide for each adventure path free. I can't remember when that stopped but that's too bad. I would like this in print to just hand out at the table during PC generation.

As a subscriber, I used to receive the player's guide for each adventure path free. I can't remember when that stopped but that's too bad. I would like this in print to just hand out at the table during PC generation.

good news... it is free for everyone!!!

bad news.. they no longer print these, they just make PDFs

As a subscriber, I used to receive the player's guide for each adventure path free. I can't remember when that stopped but that's too bad. I would like this in print to just hand out at the table during PC generation.

It went like this, if I remember correctly.

Rise of the Runelords: Free to subscribers, PDF free for everyone (to help folks get introduced to Golarion.

Curse of the Crimson Throne: Same as above.

Second Darkness: Free to subscribers but not free PDF; this was to help introduce the newest line of products to folks, since with this Player's Guide, we launched the Companion line.

Legacy of Fire: I THINK this one was a free PDF to subscribers, but not a free print product.

Council of Thieves: At some point after we'd started work on the Council of Thieves Player's Guide, we decided to split the AP Player's Guide apart from the Companion Line. The Companion Line was doing GREAT and didn't really need the cross-platform support, and we really wanted to be able to get the Player's Guides to AP players without charging for it, but since not all players had subscriptions to the AP that was tricky. So we published a Cheliax Companion (not free for anyone), and then published the Council of Thieves Player's Guide as a free for everyone PDF.

Kingmaker (and beyond!): This player's guide exists only as a free PDF, and isn't really linked at all to the Companion line. All player's guides from now on will be released as free PDFs.

Rise of the Runelords: Free to subscribers, PDF free for everyone (to help folks get introduced to Golarion.

Heh. I can't help but gloat.

I never subscribed to Pathfinder ANYTHING, but when I ordered Burnt Offerings from amazon.com, it came with a free copy of the player's guide. And I didn't even know it until I opened the box.

And soon after I ordered it, amazon.com raised the price. Soon after that, they raised the price again. And soon after THAT, Burnt Offerings disappeared from amazon altogether, unless you were willing to buy from a collector at a ridiculous price.

Do I have great timing or what?

<clears throat> Okay, I think I got that out of my system. Sorry for the threadjack.

Legacy of Fire: I THINK this one was a free PDF to subscribers, but not a free print product.

I think it was actually a free PDF for everyone who could receive emails from Paizo at a certain key date.

I remember it being a peace offering after getting behind on schedule with stuff.

So is the only way to get the Player's guides is through download?

I would like a hardcopy (I am of the old school, like book format over digital). If I order any of the AP's, do you get the Player guide for that AP in one of the 6 parts you would have delivered to you?

So is the only way to get the Player's guides is through download?

I would like a hardcopy (I am of the old school, like book format over digital). If I order any of the AP's, do you get the Player guide for that AP in one of the 6 parts you would have delivered to you?

Yes, the only way is through PDF download.

If you want a hard copy, you either have to print it yourself or find a print store (like FedEx/Kinkos) that are willing to do the job. They are often resistant due to the possibility of piracy, so unless you can provide "proof of purchase" (kind of difficult on a free product) they might refuse the job.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.....

Sorry, just remembered how this ends:)

Carry on.

Hobbun wrote:

So is the only way to get the Player's guides is through download?

I would like a hardcopy (I am of the old school, like book format over digital). If I order any of the AP's, do you get the Player guide for that AP in one of the 6 parts you would have delivered to you?

Yes, the only way is through PDF download.

If you want a hard copy, you either have to print it yourself or find a print store (like FedEx/Kinkos) that are willing to do the job. They are often resistant due to the possibility of piracy, so unless you can provide "proof of purchase" (kind of difficult on a free product) they might refuse the job.

Well, I have a printer and could print it up. But I mean is it long? Like long in what could be a short book? Or only a few pages? If it's only a few pages, then downloading works for me.

Although since it's the only option, anyways, it will have to work for me if I get Kingmaker. :)

Well, I have a printer and could print it up. But I mean is it long? Like long in what could be a short book? Or only a few pages? If it's only a few pages, then downloading works for me.

16 pages.

I never subscribed to Pathfinder ANYTHING, but when I ordered Burnt Offerings from amazon.com, it came with a free copy of the player's guide. And I didn't even know it until I opened the box.

Yeah, that was one rare configuration that James didn't mention—we did a special bundle of Pathfinder #1 plus a free Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide that was just supposed to be available in military PXs, but somehow, Amazon ended up with some of those and shipped them to people who had ordered Pathfinder #1 alone.

I just finished reading cover to cover, and I'm very much looking forward to running this. My group is very interested in the opportunity to become "slumlords" as one of them put it. He's in for a bit of a shock, methinks.

There are a few logistic concerns, however, that befuddle me a bit.

1. It would be nice to have the Brevoy map show a bit more of the Riverlands. After all, that "edge of civilization" is where the party supposedly is going to lord it over others. I understand the intent of keeping the area somewhat vague, but that is a fairly important map area to go without. It may not be important to this adventure series, but a DM may want it if the campaign takes a left turn.

2. An un-labled 'player' version of the hex map would have been a very welcome addition to the printed version. It is one thing to require the PCs to map themselves, but it is another thing entirely for them to have some frame of reference to speed mapping along.

The two above issues do not dimish the product, in my mind. They simply would have been nice to have. :)

I just finished reading cover to cover, and I'm very much looking forward to running this. My group is very interested in the opportunity to become "slumlords" as one of them put it. He's in for a bit of a shock, methinks.

There are a few logistic concerns, however, that befuddle me a bit.

1. It would be nice to have the Brevoy map show a bit more of the Riverlands. After all, that "edge of civilization" is where the party supposedly is going to lord it over others. I understand the intent of keeping the area somewhat vague, but that is a fairly important map area to go without. It may not be important to this adventure series, but a DM may want it if the campaign takes a left turn.

2. An un-labled 'player' version of the hex map would have been a very welcome addition to the printed version. It is one thing to require the PCs to map themselves, but it is another thing entirely for them to have some frame of reference to speed mapping along.

The two above issues do not dimish the product, in my mind. They simply would have been nice to have. :)

Somehow I put this in the wrong thread. My apologies, it should have been on the thread for Book 1 of this adventure series.

I just finished reading cover to cover, and I'm very much looking forward to running this. My group is very interested in the opportunity to become "slumlords" as one of them put it. He's in for a bit of a shock, methinks.

There are a few logistic concerns, however, that befuddle me a bit.

1. It would be nice to have the Brevoy map show a bit more of the Riverlands. After all, that "edge of civilization" is where the party supposedly is going to lord it over others. I understand the intent of keeping the area somewhat vague, but that is a fairly important map area to go without. It may not be important to this adventure series, but a DM may want it if the campaign takes a left turn.

2. An un-labled 'player' version of the hex map would have been a very welcome addition to the printed version. It is one thing to require the PCs to map themselves, but it is another thing entirely for them to have some frame of reference to speed mapping along.

The two above issues do not dimish the product, in my mind. They simply would have been nice to have. :)

1. There's a map of the River Kingdoms in the Guide to the River Kingdoms, although the distances (scale bar) in that map are off if I remember correctly. Still it shows more of the area.

2. If you have the pdf of the book you can export an unlabeled version of the map with Adobe Reader 8.0 or a program like Some PDF.

Kingmaker (and beyond!): This player's guide exists only as a free PDF, and isn't really linked at all to the Companion line. All player's guides from now on will be released as free PDFs.

So it won't be possible to get print versions of the Council of Thieves, Kingmaker, or future player's guides? Is there any chance you might reconsider that at some point?

Don't get me wrong; I love the free PDF versions, but I also like having actual print versions :)

Yup yup...

Love the print version of the players guides, and the free pdfs :)

My game store guy puts everything from Paizo thats Pathfinder into my file and I come in every so ofter and clean it out :) And I am a big advertiser for the store; people come in and see my Pathfinder products sitting on the shelf behind the counter and ask "whats that?"
And he ends up having to order more in :)

The Kingmaker is the best thing since ROTRL wich I am running now :) and I am reading the Pathfinder novel set in Brevoy wich is awesome :) I cant waite till I can have my players tacle Kingmaker :) But until then I am absolutly loving the Rise of the Runelords and it got me to move to Golarion from the Forgotten Realms (Wich I also Love). I am about to embark on the Hook Mountain Masacre, my players are having a blast so far :) Thanks you guys.

I wish that the ROTRL would be redone in Pathfinder instead of 3.5 and I also wish that we could have a booklet of Endo Kline's adventures :)
Yeah I know thats extra work and not likely to happen any time soon, I read the speal on PDF's and such, but hey I can dream :)

James Jacobs wrote:

Kingmaker (and beyond!): This player's guide exists only as a free PDF, and isn't really linked at all to the Companion line. All player's guides from now on will be released as free PDFs.

So it won't be possible to get print versions of the Council of Thieves, Kingmaker, or future player's guides? Is there any chance you might reconsider that at some point?

Don't get me wrong; I love the free PDF versions, but I also like having actual print versions :)

Perhaps at some point where print-on-demand options are capable of delivering products at a quality level up to our standards? And even then maybe not since it's really to our advantage to have the few extra months that we get for NOT printing these things to make sure that they do end up syncing up well with the AP.

Anybody have a print copy of this players guide that they are willing to part with? If so, e-mail me with condition, and price.