Y

So, before this venue of discussion disappears forever, could Uncle let us in on who/what "Y" is? We all thought it was Yeenoghu, but the last published level hinted that wasn't the case.

So, before this venue of discussion disappears forever, could Uncle let us in on who/what "Y" is? We all thought it was Yeenoghu, but the last published level hinted that wasn't the case.

I believe it has been confirmed that the Y is a reference to Tharizdun the Elder Elemental Eye. I could be wrong about that, but I think it came up in the thread about unsolved mysteries of the Maures.

I'll leave confirmations and denials to Uncle, but there's no real rush to get the answer, really. These messageboards will remain here even after the magazines have gone away. I suspect they'll see less traffic, but you'll still be able to post on them as long as Paizo's around, I suspect.

Nothing's been confirmed here, to my knowledge. Uncle has made some agreeable-sounding noises to a poster's nicely-reasoned theory on why "Y" = "Big T". But nobody's managed to put all the pieces together, and it's possible there's another curve ball to be thrown. (Hey, it could be Demogorgon, who when standing up straight sorta looks like a "Y" -- but I guess he's pretty busy lately ...)

There are more hints that could be knitted together to help in this quest for lore, too.... :D

Allan.

The truth is out there, but its awfulness and twisted horror will burn your brain :-o

Equally perplexing is who is Dalt and just who the heck is "Uncle" anyway..?

Equally perplexing is who is Dalt and just who the heck is "Uncle" anyway..?

Uncle is Robert J. Kuntz's name on the Paizo boards.

If memory serves... (And that's not always a sure thing when you've played D&D for over 27 years) In the old 1st edition module, The Forgotten Temple of ole Thaz there was a 'Y' emblem on the robes... however since I haven't actually looked at the module for many years (but I know right where it is, it's 'There') I can't be certain. It's always been my guess that 'Y' was Thazidun(sp?) though I am certainly expecting a twist and a half along the way.

Equally perplexing is who is Dalt

Dalt is the god of doors, portals, locks, and such. He's described in WG5, upon which the first levels of MC were based (in Dungeon 112):

Silver Key of Portals: This item appears to
be a regular-sized silver skeleton key (silver
worth equals 33 gp). It is, in fact, a minor artifact
that was found in an abandoned chapel to
Dalt, the lesser god of portals and enclosures.
(It is conjectured by Mordenkainen that this
forgotten god led him to find the Key, for he
has learned that Dalt is of a chaotic good alignment
and gives generously to those he
favors). When the key is touched to any portal,
be it magical or other, the portal will slowly
swing open. This key may be used to open
four portals per day, and no more.

Now, if you want to go hunting for more info on Dalt, you can do so by checking the following GH sources (compliments of Jason Zavoda's GH index on Harvester's Heroes):

Dalt [Deity]
DRG#299 - 101,103
LGG - 169,185
LGJ#3 - 18
LOG - 25,67
PGTG - 20
TSB - 11,12,80,82
WG5 - 30

Jason's index is only current through 2003, so anything written afterward isn't included, but it's certainly a good start.

Allan.

If memory serves... (And that's not always a sure thing when you've played D&D for over 27 years) In the old 1st edition module, The Forgotten Temple of ole Thaz there was a 'Y' emblem on the robes... however since I haven't actually looked at the module for many years (but I know right where it is, it's 'There') I can't be certain. It's always been my guess that 'Y' was Thazidun(sp?) though I am certainly expecting a twist and a half along the way.

I think you may be mixing up ToEE with WG4??

The robes are very long, fully7' but

by use of the black cord belt each has, the hem can be
adjusted so as to just sweep the ground. The sleeves are
long-armed man. With each robe is a long, pointed hood
whose front and back points reach well down on the
wearer’s torso, and whose sides cover the shoulders. The
pointed front and back pieces are decorated with inverted,
two-tiered black pyramids.

But now I can't find any Y emblems on ToEE robes, so maybe we're both wrong! ;)

edit: Aha! After some sleuthing, I found Paul Stormberg's article in OJ#12 @ which states:

Q: In G1-3 Against the Giants you describe the symbol for the EEG as follows: “...a wall of glossy purple stone, with an amber-like inlay of a huge inverted triangle with a Y enclosed within it and touching the sides of the triangle.” Do you mean “...touching the vertices of the triangle.”, thus dividing the inverted triangle into 3 smaller, equal triangles?

A: You have it right. The Y-shape in the triangle rises and thus make a shape akin to that when looking down on a three-sided pyramid. That is the symbol called an “eye of fire” - although a certain artist didn’t pay attention...

[PJS] Author’s Note: Zuggtmoy’s “Eye of Fire” symbol found in T1-4 is an
artistic error. Gary is indicating that the Eye of Fire symbol was supposed to be the same as the EEG’s, i.e., an inverted triangle enclosing a “Y.” The symbol, as erroneously drawn in T1-4, is an eye with the upper lash aflame, although, it is plausible that Zuggtmoy could have used a play on imagery to avoid complications with the true EEG’s.

Yet another bit regarding the Eye of Fire, is that it appears as a rune for “DRAGON, EVIL WATCHER” in the 1979 World of Greyhawk folio. This rune, along with many others, disappears from the runes and glyphs of the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set. Note that the silvery-runed
doorways (Diagram 10, pg. 39) within the Temple of Elemental Evil can not be fully translated unless the 1979 folio version of the symbols is used!

Q: Is there any relationship between The Temple of Elemental Evil (ToEE) and the Elder Elemental God? (T1-4 indicates no relation whatsoever, but according to your above comment on the Eye of Fire symbol, it appears she was blatantly using the EEG’s symbol, or a parody of it, as part of
her ruse-religion to draw evil beings into her service.)

A: You have sussed out a dark secret! The EEG was indeed meant by me to have a place in the very nethermost recesses of the ToEE. An anomaly there allowed him to manifest a portion of himself, and by doing the wrong (right from the DM’s point of view) thing the adventurers could release him also! Of course that would counter somewhat the freeing of Zuggtmoy, had she been loosed, so on balance it could serve to redress that error. But, alas, I was too busy with other things at the time when the project was being completed. As it was already quite hefty, I decided to omit any mention of this to Frank Mentzer, and so the ToEE was released with only the Eye of Fire as a clue to what I should have included in the adventure.

Allan.

Fascinating. Arrrgghh! This makes the loss Dungeon even more annoying.

Fascinating. Arrrgghh! This makes the loss Dungeon even more annoying.

Uncle is going to continue putting out new levels of Maure on his own website. Alas, I can't remember said webpage tho.

Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:

Fascinating. Arrrgghh! This makes the loss Dungeon even more annoying.

Uncle is going to continue putting out new levels of Maure on his own website. Alas, I can't remember said webpage tho.

http://pied-piper-publishing.com

"Y" does everyone keep wondering about this mystery? ;) I say let it unfold and be pleased in the end whether single guesses were right or wrong. I do intend to reveal all in the end (or near that point), so all is not lost, but a DM's secrets are his own until he coughs them up, heh? ;)

Y is not Yeenoghu, btw...

RJK

I think you may be mixing up ToEE with WG4??

But now I can't find any Y emblems on ToEE robes, so maybe we're both wrong! ;)
edit: Aha! After some sleuthing, I found Paul Stormberg's article in OJ#12 @ which states:

Ah HA! okay I knew there was some Y on some robes SOMEwhere! :) I'm gonna have to dig out my old Greyhawk modules and begin combing through them again.

I definitely place the Maure Castle adventures in the DUNGEON in the same class as all those classic Greyhawk modules.

The true nature and identity of 'Y' is a mystery that must be delved! Even if I can't uncover anything about it the hunt alone will be worth it!

Quick Watson! The Game's Afoot!

"Y" does everyone keep wondering about this mystery? ;) I say let it unfold and be pleased in the end whether single guesses were right or wrong. I do intend to reveal all in the end (or near that point), so all is not lost, but a DM's secrets are his own until he coughs them up, heh? ;)

Y is not Yeenoghu, btw...

RJK

Uncle, any clues as to when the next installment of Maure will be posted? I'm about to start a party through in the very near future (within weeks) and would like to have an idea of how far they will get before I run out of material. :-)

Greg

Uncle is Robert J. Kuntz's name on the Paizo boards.

You miss my point - Uncle is the name of the elder Maure, but just who is he really and how did he get imprisoned in the depths of the Castle?

Lilith wrote:

Uncle is Robert J. Kuntz's name on the Paizo boards.

You miss my point - Uncle is the name of the elder Maure, but just who is he really and how did he get imprisoned in the depths of the Castle?

The second part was answered to some degree in #112. He was mortally wounded by Malcanthet and is in stasis in the Family Crypts.

Uncle, is WotC allowing you to publish Maure levels under the name Maure or are you having to disguise it with another name?

heh, he should own the stories, unless they were significantly rewritten.
Republishing adventures require the authors agreement, and new royalties.. so tie the evidence together ;)

You merely give the magazine the right to publish the adventure once for a established royalty, the magazine doesn't end up owning the story any more than a publisher ends up owning the books...

Now if the writer was hired by the company and recived a continous pay for writing stories, then they fold to the company... just like say code a microsoft programmers writes while employed.

Day Tripper wrote:

Lilith wrote:

Uncle is Robert J. Kuntz's name on the Paizo boards.

You miss my point - Uncle is the name of the elder Maure, but just who is he really and how did he get imprisoned in the depths of the Castle?

The second part was answered to some degree in #112. He was mortally wounded by Malcanthet and is in stasis in the Family Crypts.

This is true, but remember that the diary entries that are now being found are VERY old, and things current then could have changed...

Uncle, is WotC allowing you to publish Maure levels under the name Maure or are you having to disguise it with another name?

Just as OJ uses common Greyhawk names and lore, so too can I keep the ongoing story consistent in such a manner by offering it free and using proper disclaimers. I have had no contact with WotC and so I assume, at least at this point, that they have no interest in developing the story further with my assistance. Things can change, however, and I am willing to talk with them regarding completing it if that came to pass.

heh, he should own the stories, unless they were significantly rewritten.

Republishing adventures require the authors agreement, and new royalties.. so tie the evidence together ;)

You merely give the magazine the right to publish the adventure once for a established royalty, the magazine doesn't end up owning the story any more than a publisher ends up owning the books...

Now if the writer was hired by the company and recived a continous pay for writing stories, then they fold to the company... just like say code a microsoft programmers writes while employed.

Unfortunately this is not true. The rights to such material became WotC's property upon being published in DUNGEON as WotC owns the Greyhawk trademark and thus any material being used within the magazine which relates to it.

Uncle wrote:

"Y" does everyone keep wondering about this mystery? ;) I say let it unfold and be pleased in the end whether single guesses were right or wrong. I do intend to reveal all in the end (or near that point), so all is not lost, but a DM's secrets are his own until he coughs them up, heh? ;)

Y is not Yeenoghu, btw...

RJK

Uncle, any clues as to when the next installment of Maure will be posted? I'm about to start a party through in the very near future (within weeks) and would like to have an idea of how far they will get before I run out of material. :-)

Greg

Warlock's Walk should be posted soon after GENCON UK. I can only assign so much free material to be designed at a time as I have my company, Pied Piper Publishing, to run in between and I am not a rich man. Unfortunate but true, but I will not give up on posting new material, ever, and do hope to have all posted to finish the adventure, and with some extra goodies, within 18 months, which would outdo the pace that the material was being developed for the DUNGEON. Being a one-man-show with PPP makes it hard for me to figure this plan out to a tee, however.

Warlock's Walk should be posted soon after GENCON UK.

Cool, early September. Warlock's Walk is the 15th level, as per #112. That's quite a bit lower than the Greater Halls (8th level down). I know I'll probably have to wait for the answer to this, but what the heck, here goes: is there a direct access from the upper levels already published to Warlock's Walk, or will we have to wait for the intervening material to "fill in the blanks"?

I can only assign so much free material to be designed at a time as I have my company, Pied Piper Publishing, to run in between and I am not a rich man.

I understand completely.

Unfortunate but true, but I will not give up on posting new material, ever, and do hope to have all posted to finish the adventure, and with some extra goodies, within 18 months, which would outdo the pace that the material was being developed for the DUNGEON. Being a one-man-show with PPP makes it hard for me to figure this plan out to a tee, however.

Again, I understand completely. However I have to say that 18 mos is a far shorter time frame than I had expected. I may get to run most of this yet!

Thanks for responding!
Greg

Warlock's Walk should be posted soon after GENCON UK.

So I'll be able to read just what it was that killed me. Good.

Unfortunate but true, but I will not give up on posting new material, ever, and do hope to have all posted to finish the adventure, and with some extra goodies, within 18 months

I understand completely. Thanks for all the stuff already in DUNGEON, and thanks in advance for all the stuff to come.

I'm assuming that all remaining Maure stuff that you publish on your site is going to be in 1st edition format?

I'm assuming that all remaining Maure stuff that you publish on your site is going to be in 1st edition format?

He mentioned a few weeks ago that he already had someone who would convert it to 3.5 and that he would post both editions of it. Hope that hasn't changed.

Eveyone is more than welcome.

And yes the addies, as well as ancillary material, will be posted in both editions. :)

RJK

Eveyone is more than welcome.

And yes the addies, as well as ancillary material, will be posted in both editions. :)

RJK

Thank you. I've still got some of my 1st edition stuff, but I hate wading through all the charts. How old am I?

We know we'll be over the hill when 3.5 grognards start showing up! ;)

RJK

Uncle, out of curiousity, roughly how many additional dungeon levels are there of Maure Castle, yet to be chronicled by your distinguished self?

Uncle, out of curiousity, roughly how many additional dungeon levels are there of Maure Castle, yet to be chronicled by your distinguished self?

Hi Allen.

Without looking I'd say 9-10 to finish the work, plus maybe some specials I had in mind, but the latter would be side adventures/planar extensions leading from the Castle and not part of the internal dungeon structure.

But let me recount and get back with a real number. :)

Always a pleasure to hear from you Uncle. Looking forward to anything and everything you're able to add to the current Maure material. Happy scribbling.

maybe Y is Yog-Sothoth....

I think the "Y" is really Tarizdun but this symbol is usually inverted, head down.
I'm sure I read something about this in an official module, maybe in the Giant series, in the 3rd, at the end, under the castle of the fire giants there is an altar, a drow (eclavdra?), and something in the altar....or maybe it's in thr Forgotten temple of T as said earlier.
Or maybe "Y" is "YAHOO".

Tharizdun seems to be a reasonable assumption, however I think it might be a little more esoteric. The modules talk about the City of the Elders, which to me shouts out Cthulhu mythos. Granted Tharizdun is very Cthulhuiod. If we look deeper though in Lords of Madness chapter 2: The Deep Masters, page 28, written by James Jacobs we discover that the Elder Evils have a diety named Y'chack who could be either Nyarlathotep or Hastur. Could these Elder Evils be From the City of the Elders? Nyarlathotep in particualr would be an awsome patron to the Maure family.

Tharizdun seems to be a reasonable assumption, however I think it might be a little more esoteric. The modules talk about the City of the Elders, which to me shouts out Cthulhu mythos. Granted Tharizdun is very Cthulhuiod. If we look deeper though in Lords of Madness chapter 2: The Deep Masters, page 28, written by James Jacobs we discover that the Elder Evils have a diety named Y'chack who could be either Nyarlathotep or Hastur. Could these Elder Evils be From the City of the Elders? Nyarlathotep in particualr would be an awsome patron to the Maure family.

I suggest those interested in exposing this mystery read the Greater Halls again, and very carefully, especially all those entries dealing with Dalt.

RJK

I suggest those interested in exposing this mystery read the Greater Halls again, and very carefully, especially all those entries dealing with Dalt.

So, anyone want to further discuss the question of Y's identity after reading the Unsolver Mysteries article in Dragon 350? According to Dragon, Y isn't a known being on the plane of Greyhawk, and isn't even there yet, but has dwelt outside the plane--this rules out Tharizdun, to my reckoning (since Y has never dwelt on Greyhawk). To me, this really points to the idea of Y being one of the Elder Evils or Cthulhu evils, possibly Nyarlothotep or Hastur. That's where my money is at--what do the rest of you kids think?

Seems it's very similar, in earlier publication Tarizdun is the banned god, always on the border of reality, waiting to come back and destroy the universe, like the Great old one in HP Lovecraft books.

Seems it's very similar, in earlier publication Tarizdun is the banned god, always on the border of reality, waiting to come back and destroy the universe, like the Great old one in HP Lovecraft books.

True, but to my understanding, Tharizdun had spent some time on the Material Plane, and was known by its peoples; that's perhaps the most important factor. The aricle states the following:

"'Y' is not Yeenoghu, and he is not a known god or outsider within recent reckoning. 'Y' might have connections to the Lost City of the Elders, to the most ancient members of the Maure family line (especially 'Uncle') and to a primal power as yet not released upon the World of Greyhawk, a power the family intended to summon at all costs."

I guess the part about Tharizdun's history that sticks with me here is that in order to be the banned god, big T first would have had to be active and known on the Material Plane. In any case, it seems with each little bit of writing released we become closer and closer to knowing the whole truth about the Maure family. :)