PFS mounts, full actions, charges and readied actions

Hi folks,

i'm confused about mounts and full actions.

can my mount move. I make a free dismount and then a full action charge?
if that's possible, how about. either i or the mount readying an action so that the mount moves to flank my target before i charge in.

is that rules legal? cheesy?

can my mount move. I make a free dismount and then a full action charge?

-No.

if that's possible, how about. either i or the mount readying an action so that the mount moves to flank my target before i charge in.

A charge is a full round action and you cannot ready it.

is that rules legal? cheesy?

-You can rules lawyer your way to those answers. Most likely the DM will hit you in the head with the core rule book and tell you no anyway.

For the second question that's not exactly what he was asking. He was asking "If I can charge after I make a free dismount, can I have my mount move into a flanking position as a readied action (the mount's readied action to move) when I charge."

Though I do have to ask, if he still has both his move and his standard actions left, why can't he charge?

So here is the way to try and do this...

If you mount moves at all before you dismount, you do not have a move action after that. *you used it to direct the mount*

If you dismount, it is a Ride check to do it as a free action. You can not do this if the mount is two size categories larger than the rider. *Otherwise, it is a move action*

It is a handle animal check to direct your mount to flank, the DC would be dependent on tricks and other class bonds with the animal.

Charging would be possible if you only used a free action once you are dis-mounted.

Also, charging with a mount is a single action. A ride check would be needed to have both rider and beast attack during the charge, and can only be attempted if the mount is Combat Trained. *This is if you are still mounted on the animal when charging* Normally, only the rider attacks in a mounted charge. *The rider can choose to let the animal attack instead*

I assume that you charge then the readied animal goes into flank afterward. A charge can not be readied.

Just to be clear I'm not trying to rules lawyer here, just understand - copied and pasted from ride skill.

Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round.

You do not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat.

So the ambiguity is the bit in bold. I think I'd read it as don't need to roll, is therefore a free action, but looking at it again it means don't need to roll but still uses a move action. Right?

All the guide with knees business is superseded by the control mount in battle bit, right.

Just because you don't need to roll doesn't make it a free action. Having the ability to command an animal as a free action, like a Druid does their bonded companion, would get you around that.

Just because you don't need to roll doesn't make it a free action. Having the ability to command an animal as a free action, like a Druid does their bonded companion, would get you around that.

You mean like any class that has a pet that functions as a druid's animal companion (which is every class that has a pet (not a familiar)). Though I have to question if you're directing it via Handle Animal if it's still acting during the middle of your turn like if you had directed it with the Ride skill.

Just to be clear I'm not trying to rules lawyer here, just understand - copied and pasted from ride skill.

Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round.

You do not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat.

So the ambiguity is the bit in bold. I think I'd read it as don't need to roll, is therefore a free action, but looking at it again it means don't need to roll but still uses a move action. Right?

All the guide with knees business is superseded by the control mount in battle bit, right.

I read the bolded part as "Combat trained animals are not frightened by combat, so you do not have to take actions or roll to keep them calm." That's not strictly what it says, but that's my understanding. If absolutely everyone had to spend a move action to calm their mount, much of the rest of this section makes no sense.

The part that's relevant to most of your question is this:

If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack.

If you move your horse adjacent to an enemy and fast dismount, you can be a 5-foot step away from flanking (a medium enemy) with a standard action left. If there's something that lets you move as a swift or free action, then you could take a standard action attack in flanking with your horse.

I have a mounted character about to take Pack Flanking and share the feat using a horsemaster's saddle. Any adjacent enemy will be flanked! Add Outflank and/or Precise Strike for fun times.

The only restriction imposed upon the rider when their mount moves more than 5ft is that the rider cannot full attack (in melee). The rider can still take other full-round actions, since "the mount uses its action to move".

Casting a full-round spell and performing a full attack with a ranged weapon are still totally doable after having ridden your mount.

However, there's a hidden restriction regarding what the OP is asking, and it's one of those debates that surfaces every few months here in the Rules Forum. I'm honestly not sure where I sit on the issue, because I believe the rules are ill defined.

It's regarding whether the dismount itself counts as moving distance. You're clearly leaving one square and entering another. Does this prevent taking a 5ft step? Does this prevent the full-round action of running or charging? I'm not sure.

It's probably safest just not to try it, or at least ask your GM before game.

Hi folks,

i'm confused about mounts and full actions.

can my mount move. I make a free dismount and then a full action charge?
if that's possible, how about. either i or the mount readying an action so that the mount moves to flank my target before i charge in.

is that rules legal? cheesy?

To question 1: You absolutely cannot take a full attack action. When your mount moves it sort of uses up some of your action.

Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.

When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

I say sort of because you can still use your move action to manipulate an object or do other types of move actions, but it specifically prohibits making a full attack action. It's unclear whether or not you could dismount as a free action (assuming you made the check) and use your move action to move further. To me this seems not to be intended by the rules, but is not specifically forbidden either. Expect table variance. It's also unclear if a full round action like charging should be allowed, while it does not violate the only one attack clause it seems like it violates the spirit of what is intended by the rules.

For your second question, can you restate it? The way you have it written currently is confusing.

Unfortunately, the mounted combat rules have long been a mess in D&D and Pathfinder and there are many things that aren't as clear as they should be.

Look at the Ride Skill. It is a move action to dis-mount or mount, but the rider can dis-mount as a free action with a Ride check.

Look at the Ride Skill. It is a move action to dis-mount or mount, but the rider can dis-mount as a free action with a Ride check.

The rider can both mount/dismount as a free action (assuming they make the dc 20 ride check). It's not limited to just dismounting.

thaX wrote:

Look at the Ride Skill. It is a move action to dis-mount or mount, but the rider can dis-mount as a free action with a Ride check.

The rider can both mount/dismount as a free action (assuming they make the dc 20 ride check). It's not limited to just dismounting.

That's correct. From the Ride skill:

Also, note the bolded part (I haven't seen anyone else bring it up yet). This restricts the order of your actions during mounted combat. You can't full attack from your mount and then free action dismount. (Some GMs will let you do this if you can't fail the ride check, but expect table variation.)

The other problem the OP will run into is weaving the mounts actions in with his own.
Even if you direct your mount as a free action and don't need to drop the dice, you still need to take the free action. Once you take your free action, your turn has started, and you can't wait for your mount to go and then take a full attack or make a charge. You can ready an attack--that's about it.

To make this work at all (and it's still iffy), the rider would have to direct the mount to move and then wait until the next turn:

Round 1:
Rider directs mount to move (and forfeits his turn, buffs, whatever)
Mount moves.

Round 2:
Rider makes the dismount as a free action, orders the mount to flank as a free action, then charges as a full round action.
Mount moves around to flank.

Note that the rider does not get the benefit of flanking on the charge, because the mount has not moved yet.

(Your GM might let you stack multiple commands in a single free action, but you still have to get off the mount before it moves to flank or else you go with it.)

To the OP:
I'm not understanding the situation here: what's the point of getting off your mount and then charging? You lose your lance damage anyway. Is it just movement distance here and you're not actually trying the "charge" action but just "running in and attacking"? Because the latter is much, much easier.

If I may humbly suggest this book:

The Very Last Book About Mounted Combat

There's a lot of great options in there that might be better for you than getting off your combat trained mount to fight. :)

Also, charging with a mount is a single action. A ride check would be needed to have both rider and beast attack during the charge, and can only be attempted if the mount is Combat Trained. *This is if you are still mounted on the animal when charging* Normally, only the rider attacks in a mounted charge. *The rider can choose to let the animal attack instead*

Note for those interested: This is DC10 free action. It gets brushed over quite a bit since it's so easy to make that most auto-succeed, but it may matter at low levels. Also, it only applies to mounts of animal intelligence - anything with Int 3+ (such as an Eidolon) is smart enough to do it itself.

If I may humbly suggest this book:

The Very Last Book About Mounted Combat

There's a lot of great options in there that might be better for you than getting off your combat trained mount to fight. :)

Just pointing out to those that don't notice this isn't a paizo product.

A Mount moving Absolutely does not eat up any of your movement actions. You can take a full attack with a bow, halfway through the mounts movement, while your mount moves.

CONTROL A FRIGHTENED MOUNT is a move action.

Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat.

Mounted Combat

These rules cover being mounted on a horse in combat but can also be applied to more unusual steeds, such as a griffon or dragon.

Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds. Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full-round action, and you can't do anything else until your next turn.

Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.

Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.

When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

Casting Spells While Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).

If Your Mount Falls in Battle: If your mount falls, you have to succeed on a DC 15 Ride check to make a soft fall and take no damage. If the check fails, you take 1d6 points of damage.

If You Are Dropped: If you are knocked unconscious, you have a 50% chance to stay in the saddle (75% if you're in a military saddle). Otherwise you fall and take 1d6 points of damage. Without you to guide it, your mount avoids combat.

All Bolds Mine.

With the bolded parts above, you move with your mount, but it uses it's movement. You can take a full round attack while it moves, with a ranged weapon(at a penalty), but not a melee weapon because you are only there at the end of the move.

The Combat-Trained Mount can absolutely move, then ready to move again as the mounts standard action. Then the character can free action dismount (with the DC 20 ride check, if he fails it takes a move to dismount and he no longer has a full round charge available), and charge, with the mount taking his readied action to move into flank before the charge goes off, since readied actions precede the trigger. This would require a combat trained mount with the flank command, and the ability to direct a mount or AC as a free action as part of a class ability, but is legal with those pre-reqs. Of course, Pack Flanking is a much better way to do this, since while mounted you always count as flanking, if you have the Int for it, as a cavalier, inquisitor, or hunter.

I posted one small reason earlier why it might not be possible.

It has nothing to do with your ability to take actions, but whether or not the dismount itself counts as moving distance.

The rules are ill defined.

I posted one small reason earlier why it might not be possible.

It has nothing to do with your ability to take actions, but whether or not the dismount itself counts as moving distance.

The rules are ill defined.

+1 to this. I've pretty much stopped playing my PFS cavalier because of how many rules interactions just aren't explained or don't make sense with mounted characters.