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Yes, I was -- but you bring up the valid point that paladin Hellknight PCs exist even in the absence of NPC models.
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I suspect you are asking about canon, but I play a Paladin 5/Hellknight 2 in PFS. I used a GM-star replay to set him up to ** spoiler omitted ** as his last scenario before sixth level. Took the very expensive boon on that chronicle as well, to finish out the backstory.So who is the highest level known paladin Hellknight? I know that the Order of the Godclaw has one of 3rd level. Are there any paladin Hellknights of high enough level to have taken the Test?
There are higher level Hellknights of lawful good alignment who have actual Hellknight levels, but none of the ones I have tracked down so far are paladins.
i thought you had to kill a devil to become a hellknight since the special says so anyways
source: Hellknight
Special: You must slay a devil with HD greater than your own. This victory must be witnessed by a Hell knight.
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I suspect you are asking about canon, but I play a Paladin 5/Hellknight 2 in PFS. I used a GM-star replay to set him up to ** spoiler omitted ** as his last scenario before sixth level. Took the very expensive boon on that chronicle as well, to finish out the backstory.So who is the highest level known paladin Hellknight? I know that the Order of the Godclaw has one of 3rd level. Are there any paladin Hellknights of high enough level to have taken the Test?
There are higher level Hellknights of lawful good alignment who have actual Hellknight levels, but none of the ones I have tracked down so far are paladins.
i thought you had to kill a devil to become a hellknight since the special says so anyways
source: Hellknight
Special: You must slay a devil with HD greater than your own. This victory must be witnessed by a Hell knight.
Ooops. For some reason I always thought those were Devils. Hmm. Anyway, PFS officially hand-waves any "story" prerequisites like that.
He's actually killed a couple devils anyway, at least one of them in view of the Paracountess.
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I suspect you are asking about canon, but I play a Paladin 5/Hellknight 2 in PFS. I used a GM-star replay to set him up to ** spoiler omitted ** as his last scenario before sixth level. Took the very expensive boon on that chronicle as well, to finish out the backstory.So who is the highest level known paladin Hellknight? I know that the Order of the Godclaw has one of 3rd level. Are there any paladin Hellknights of high enough level to have taken the Test?
There are higher level Hellknights of lawful good alignment who have actual Hellknight levels, but none of the ones I have tracked down so far are paladins.
i thought you had to kill a devil to become a hellknight since the special says so anyways
source: Hellknight
Special: You must slay a devil with HD greater than your own. This victory must be witnessed by a Hell knight.Ooops. For some reason I always thought those were Devils. Hmm. Anyway, PFS officially hand-waves any "story" prerequisites like that.
He's actually killed a couple devils anyway, at least one of them in view of the Paracountess.
*eye twitch*
*eye twitch*
I suspect you are asking about canon, but I play a Paladin 5/Hellknight 2 in PFS. I used a GM-star replay to set him up to ** spoiler omitted ** as his last scenario before sixth level. Took the very expensive boon on that chronicle as well, to finish out the backstory.So who is the highest level known paladin Hellknight? I know that the Order of the Godclaw has one of 3rd level. Are there any paladin Hellknights of high enough level to have taken the Test?
There are higher level Hellknights of lawful good alignment who have actual Hellknight levels, but none of the ones I have tracked down so far are paladins.
i thought you had to kill a devil to become a hellknight since the special says so anyways
source: Hellknight
Special: You must slay a devil with HD greater than your own. This victory must be witnessed by a Hell knight.Ooops. For some reason I always thought those were Devils. Hmm. Anyway, PFS officially hand-waves any "story" prerequisites like that.
He's actually killed a couple devils anyway, at least one of them in view of the Paracountess.
They were devils in 4e, did you play 4e?
==Aelryinth
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Um no, different Hellknight orders come into conflict all the time because they have different beliefs, they're not a hive minded conglomerate. That doesn't make them chaotic.
Hell, Paladins of Iomedae and Abadar have conflicting views and probably go at it a lot too.
You need to remember that the paladin is LAWFUL good. Just because someone detects evil is not a reason enough to smite them, even if they don't want to change. Should the paladin smite the heartbreaker man that simply dedicates himself to making others fall in love with him for the sole purpose of breaking their hearts, even if the guy refuses to change his ways?
Also, what about a would-be Paladin of Erastil that finds that the only local knight order is a Hellknight one, which is helping protect his community?
Is this addressed to me?
Wherever did I say a paladin has to go around and smite all evil? Anywhere? You try to do that, I'd make you Fall in a heartbeat. That's textbook Lawful Stupid, and you try to play a paladin that way, you won't be a paladin long.
But working with a brother Hellknight who uses Evil methods in his work? You're violating the code just working with him and calling him a 'brother', and all the other LE Hellknights, and if he uses Evil methods you're going to stop him, even if it means that most chaotic of things, violent infighting among Hellknights!
I have no idea where this heartbreaker thing comes from. A paladin has Diplomacy on his skill list for a reason. The ruffian would find his name and identity rapidly known among men and women, and the paladin might just be following him around to loudly proclaim his past mistreatments of women. Heck, he might commission a bard to write a book about the fool, give them away to the ladies, and have them spread word among themselves thereby.
Paladins are heroes, not Lawful Stupid Smite Machines.
And what about that Paladin of Erastil? He has no need to join them. He has the support of his church, if need be. If there is great danger, sure, as an exception, he could send word to them. But he'd want them to stay as far away from his flock as possible, since he can see the corruption they bring clear as day. Trading your soul for tyranny's promises is not something a paladin goes along with. The village elders might be more pragmatic, but they aren't PALADINS. Paladins can be so unpragmatic it's just not funny. Always taking that high road can be VERY tiresome, but it's just what paladins do.
==Aelryinth
I agree with you Aelryinth that names and appearances should matter, and yeah I don't really like the whole dressing up as evil to fight evil (Hellknights, daredevil etc. but I can understand why they exist in literature) but it's a fact that at least in some parts of Golarion names and appearances don't really matter in some cases.
I (personally) take the whole paladins in Hellknight orders as an opportunity for corruption stories, redemption stories or hubris stories.
Exactly. Unlike on earth, there are implications to dressing up like evil to fight evil. It's just not something a paladin does (since it implicitly means lying about what you really are...a chaotic act, and forgivable, but not something you are going to do every day!)
And the places where it doesn't matter is basically irrelevant to the paladin code, which applies to the paladin himself everywhere.
==Aelryinth
Um no, different Hellknight orders come into conflict all the time because they have different beliefs, they're not a hive minded conglomerate. That doesn't make them chaotic.
Hell, Paladins of Iomedae and Abadar have conflicting views and probably go at it a lot too.
INfighting among Hellknight Orders is exactly the same as infighting between different states. It's a chaotic act. The fact it's a result of discrepancies in codes doesn't make it any different then peasants rebelling against unjust laws of other kinds. Hellknight Orders thinking the laws, methods, means and whatnot of the other side being 'not right' is no different then peasants thinking the same.
Chaos descends.
paladins of Iomadae and Adabar have their differences, and probably have very lively debates about it, paladins having diplomacy for a reason. Violence would be incredibly rare...they'd find common ground and different duties to perform within their codes. Paladins being like that, you know.
==Aelryinth
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No it's not infighting between different states, it's "infighting" between different countries (even if it was between different states states still have their own laws).
The only thing uniting Hellknights is how they're setup, their belief in law, and iconic armor (which is still unique between each order). You have Hellknights who rescue people who have been kidnapped, who hunt down assassins, who hunt down monsters, who hunt down slaves, who are history revisionists. Saying they're all exactly the same group and calling when they come into conflict becaus they have different beliefs "infighting" is just asinine.
Uh yeah, no. We're not talking about Paladins of Shelyn and Sarenrae here, we're talking about Iomedae and Abadar.
"These slaves were legally acquired and bought." says the Paladin of The Coinhoarder.
"F++* your unjust laws!" says the Paladin of The Inheritor while stabbing the Paladin of The Coinhoarder in the face.
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INfighting among Hellknight Orders is exactly the same as infighting between different states. It's a chaotic act. The fact it's a result of discrepancies in codes doesn't make it any different then peasants rebelling against unjust laws of other kinds. Hellknight Orders thinking the laws, methods, means and whatnot of the other side being 'not right' is no different then peasants thinking the same.
Chaos descends.
paladins of Iomadae and Adabar have their differences, and probably have very lively debates about it, paladins having diplomacy for a reason. Violence would be incredibly rare...they'd find common ground and different duties to perform within their codes. Paladins being like that, you know.
==Aelryinth
where do you get the idea that the Hellknight orders are united in anyway?
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Rysky wrote:
Um no, different Hellknight orders come into conflict all the time because they have different beliefs, they're not a hive minded conglomerate. That doesn't make them chaotic.
Hell, Paladins of Iomedae and Abadar have conflicting views and probably go at it a lot too.
INfighting among Hellknight Orders is exactly the same as infighting between different states. It's a chaotic act. The fact it's a result of discrepancies in codes doesn't make it any different then peasants rebelling against unjust laws of other kinds. Hellknight Orders thinking the laws, methods, means and whatnot of the other side being 'not right' is no different then peasants thinking the same.Chaos descends.
paladins of Iomadae and Adabar have their differences, and probably have very lively debates about it, paladins having diplomacy for a reason. Violence would be incredibly rare...they'd find common ground and different duties to perform within their codes. Paladins being like that, you know.
==Aelryinth
Only that there was and IS infighting.
In Cheliax, The Infernal Empire, describes, that at one time, the Order of the Pyre besieged the citadel of the Order of the Thorn. They killed more than half of the Thorn-Hellknights, and when forces of the Chain and Scourge moved in to intercept, the Pyre-Helllknights burned the fortress down, killing most of the Thorn Knights.
Hellknight orders are different factions, with different values. The all uphold order as the highest principale, but have different approaches.
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Council of Thieves also mentions that the Order of the Scourge is all to eager to accept reasons to attack the Order of the Rack because they believe that the Rack goes too far too often for it to be reasonable.
The Hellknight Orders are less like separate branches of the US Armed Forces and more like the Armed Forces of different nations. They can work together, but they can also fight one another, and neither one breaks their lawful nature.
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I'm mostly in Freehold's side on this, except for the one point. I agree that a single Chaotic act would not break a Paladin's code. One evil act willingly committed? Yes, that is pretty clear. One Chaotic act? No, it would have to be a series of unatoned deeds sufficient to change alignment completely. Unless in your game single acts change alignment completely in which case it sounds like a lot of book keeping.
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I'm mostly in Freehold's side on this, except for the one point. I agree that a single Chaotic act would not break a Paladin's code. One evil act willingly committed? Yes, that is pretty clear. One Chaotic act? No, it would have to be a series of unatoned deeds sufficient to change alignment completely. Unless in your game single acts change alignment completely in which case it sounds like a lot of book keeping.
ATONEMENT! That's the spell I was thinking of.
No atonement-spamming in my games. That's what I should have said earlier. Sorry about that.
Also, no Chaos paladins either.
Which is admittedly a cool name.
Chaos Paladin.
I think I'll have cards made.
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Point of order, I don't play yu-gi-oh.
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I'd be surprised if that's not already the name of a Yu-Gi-Oh monster.
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I see a lot of "How the heck is a paladin supposed to admire/work with the Devil?" here.
And the answer to that is; the gods already do.
From Asmodeus's entry in ISG:
Despite ethnical differences, he has been a patron of Shelyn, an aide to Nethys, a supplier to Gorum, and an advisor to Iomede, though it is not something his sometimes partners care to admit.
Emphasis mine.
Iomede, the crusader goddess, the one most associated with Paladins on Golarion, has worked with the Devil.
After all, he *does* have the most well oiled machine in the multiverse despite the layers of bureaucracy and red tape, and he *does* hold the key to Rovagug's imprisonment
But! But! The Paladin Code says that they can't associate with evil!
Actually, no it doesn't.
Associates is a separate bullet point from Code of Conduct in the paladin class block.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
A paladin's underlings MUST be LG, but her teammates can be Evil IF it serves a greater cause.
So, to take it back to Setting....Can an Iomedean associate with an Asmodean?
Sure, though she wouldn't be happy about it.
However, the fact that there's an Asmodean there might be WHY she joins an organization.
Keep him in check, balance out his actions, counter him *before* it's swords drawn, being the one to say "No, we're not doing that" when otherwise there would be noone to say not to.
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ATONEMENT! That's the spell I was thinking of.
No atonement-spamming in my games. That's what I should have said earlier. Sorry about that.
fait enough. You'd have to be truly sorry and repentant for Atonement to work so spamming it would certainly lead to it to be refused after a while.
What I'm curious about though is how fast do you this chaotic acts knock a paladin down. I think that it has to actually trigger an alignment change. I read you as saying that just a single, willing act of chaos is sufficient.
Admittedly, this is a bit off topic.