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... because Sirian Aldori has been gone for ages. So clearly he's not "bringing it to the house". I love Pathfinder and am still thrilled that Golarion swung me from Faerun.
The sword, in all it's incarnations, has captured the imagination of hero builders and storytellers for centuries. Luke Skywalker, Sir Lancelot, Li Mu Bai, Elric, Drizzt, Inigo Montoya. Yet Golarion gives us ... a single long dead dude who built a sorta-maybe cool style. Um, wow. That's a barrage of coolness. Please allow a moment to pull my tongue from the figurative cheek.
Savith and Arnisant ... also gone for millennia and minimal details about them beyond "lopped off Ydersius' head" and "was brave and had a saucy shield to fend off Tar Baphon".
I'm stunned that we haven't been given a living, breathing sword master in anything. Pathfinder Tales. Player's Companion. Adventure Path. One shot modules. Nothing. Nada. Niente. Zilch. Zero.
James Jacobs and crew? Why? With all the historic love and significance of the "role", why?? Bueller? Bueller?
Because, in the game, wizard > fighter?
Because, in the game, wizard > fighter?
That reason makes sense from some players' perspectives but would have to be considered unacceptable when examining the motives and productions of the folks at Paizo.
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Ok, first up we have Iomeda and Cayden Cailan, now both gods.
Than there Sirian Aldori, founder of the Aldori-swordlords. Belkzen.
Sorry just a few more legendary examples.
What do you mean when you say that you want a living breathing swordmaster? What do you mean with all the historic love and significance for that role? I own many Golarion books. None of them state, that meele weapons, especially swords, are more significant than magic.
Why do Pathfinder Tales have to less weapons? In most of them the protagonist is usually swinging some kind of meele weapon, sometimes bolstered with magic. Adventure Paths? Why? There is a broad variety of enemies and NPCs with different fighting styles in every path. Are there not enough BBEGs who relly solely on weapons? Skull and Shackles, Jade Regent and Giant Slayer have them.
I don't get what your complaining about. Maybe you could elaborate a little more.
If you want a list of famous fighters in the inner sea region: Inner Sea Combat has a list of them.
Creative Director
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Because, in the game, wizard > fighter?That reason makes sense from some players' perspectives but would have to be considered unacceptable when examining the motives and productions of the folks at Paizo.
The primary motive at Paizo for us not doing a lot of in-world alive high-level badasses is that we kind of think that job is for your PCs.
Now that the world's been in print for a decade, we ARE starting to build up some powerful in-world characters though, either as antagonists in the various Adventure Paths (of which there are LOTS of examples of powerful martial characters), or as characters in our Pathfinder Tales novels.
And yeah... Inner Sea Combat is a great place to go to se lists of powerful martial characters. And Inner Sea Magic for spellcasters. And Inner Sea Intrigue for skill/dual role characters.
The recent "Weapon Master's Handbook" player companion was actually a refreshing batch of "nice things for martials". I think there's definitely been a recent trend to be less restrictive in non-magical options.
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Considering Paizo employees have showed a willingness to find every way to make martials "realistic" while giving casters amazing powers at the same time, I doubt they are very much concerned with making an "epic" swordsmanBecause, in the game, wizard > fighter?That reason makes sense from some players' perspectives but would have to be considered unacceptable when examining the motives and productions of the folks at Paizo.
Oh no, he's on to us!
King Taargick was probably one mythic martial character, and in general I find there are very few relevant demi human npcs in Golarion.
That said Sirian Aldori wasn't mythic, he was a fighter 07/duellist 10 npc according to Inner Sea Combat (this was before they printed the Aldori Swordlord prestige class, Sirian should be at least fighter 10/Aldori Swordlord 10 imo).
Considering Paizo employees have showed a willingness to find every way to make martials "realistic" while giving casters amazing powers at the same time, I doubt they are very much concerned with making an "epic" swordsmanBecause, in the game, wizard > fighter?That reason makes sense from some players' perspectives but would have to be considered unacceptable when examining the motives and productions of the folks at Paizo.
James - I appreciate you taking the time to craft a thoughtful reply. I own Inner Sea Combat. There are some characters there sure ... but in a list. With no detail beyond alignment, level, and class.
I hear what you're saying and appreciate your time. Belated Happy Easter to you and your family.
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The recent "Weapon Master's Handbook" player companion was actually a refreshing batch of "nice things for martials". I think there's definitely been a recent trend to be less restrictive in non-magical options.
Brew Bird ... Paizo has done a commendable job creating "crunch" [Inner Sea Combat, Weapon Master's Handbook] for martials. I was referring to in-world characters.
Oh, yes, I was actually responding to the post before me. I'm with you that more legendary martials would be neat.
I really need to quote more often...
Ok, first up we have Iomeda and Cayden Cailan, now both gods.
Than there Sirian Aldori, founder of the Aldori-swordlords. Belkzen.
Sorry just a few more legendary examples.
What do you mean when you say that you want a living breathing swordmaster? What do you mean with all the historic love and significance for that role? I own many Golarion books. None of them state, that meele weapons, especially swords, are more significant than magic.
Why do Pathfinder Tales have to less weapons? In most of them the protagonist is usually swinging some kind of meele weapon, sometimes bolstered with magic. Adventure Paths? Why? There is a broad variety of enemies and NPCs with different fighting styles in every path. Are there not enough BBEGs who relly solely on weapons? Skull and Shackles, Jade Regent and Giant Slayer have them.
I don't get what your complaining about. Maybe you could elaborate a little more.
If you want a list of famous fighters in the inner sea region: Inner Sea Combat has a list of them.
Sylvan Steel:
Iomedae & Cayden Cailean are gods and not characters walking the world. I was not referring to Adventure Paths ... I was referring to the background world. And I already explained that I discounted Aldori because he's long dead.
I never stated a single Paizo book on Golarion had content displaying melee weapons were more significant than magic. I clearly wrote that there is historical significance throughout the history of literature in general ...
I do see your point about Adventure Paths. Inner Sea Combat does have a list. A list with scant details. James Jacobs provided some clarification.
The recent "Weapon Master's Handbook" player companion was actually a refreshing batch of "nice things for martials". I think there's definitely been a recent trend to be less restrictive in non-magical options.
WMH was a great book, bumping unarchetyped Fighter to Tier 4 (And thus Fighter being the last unarchetyped core martial to join the Tier, Monk and Rogue having reached it with Unchained). There's still a big leap before paizo martials can reach Tier 3 (Aka balanced tier.-Note, this doesn't count 4/9s, who do have T3 archetypes.)
Additional characters (humorously found in Inner Sea Magic): Galfrey (paladin 15), Iomedae, Koriah (ranger 11), and Weslen Gavirk (ranger 11).
From Mythic Realms: Jarl Gnargorak; from Rival Guide: usually two of four.
Other Significant folk: Cayden, Irori.
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In my home games, I use the Pathfinder Iconics as the "Other Heroes" of the realm with my PCs being the main heroes. This gives them a chance to bump into some mythic badasses from time to time while maintaining their own aura of invincibility.
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Kharswan is pretty damn epic in my table.
He single handedly held a swarm of ghouls on Wati Necropolis's Gates so my players could flee with the bodies of two dead characters.
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If you look at Pathfinder Tales, it's amusing that the vast majority of such things are fighter based, and caster classes are either seriously underplayed or outright killed off early so they can't mess up the stories. Drizzt became an epic fighter because of the stories about him and the fact he really was really, really good...but if you try to represent that level of martial ability in stories, you get frowned on.
They aren't writing epic fighters in Pathfinder Tales. They are writing about level 5-6 fighters in a level 10-12 world. When one eidolon can take apart a whole team and nobody even notice the summoner is popping spells on it...yeah, I take their whole line on high level martials with a complete grain of salt. Even the books with the century year old forced servant of Pharasma is severely unimpressive when it comes time to fight, always overshadowed by the outsiders around him.
Side note: I was in two of the first three Pathfinder compilation anthologies of fan fiction, and wrote about a fighter, naturally enough. The editor first had problems with the basic duel, and I had to explain to him exactly how Crane Wing worked and the duel was basically reflecting game mechanics. The second story, the sheer force of the MC's blows, and his ability to take damage, were clearly way above human, and I had to point out to the reluctant editor just what Power Attack and magic weapons allowed you to do for damage, and just what high hit points and damage reduction meant you could take.
The AP's follow the same formula. Epic end AP fights are always magic-centered. There are no AP's where the end boss isn't a spellcaster or creatures with spell-like abilities, simply because endgame martials are not a threat to an adventuring party...they are minions to casters. The closest they come is Skull and Shackles, where they get around the problem by giving artifacts and unique abilities to the Pirate lord so he has some magical abilities to fall back on. And a magical ship. And magical constructs/undead to command. And pet spellcasters. Having no spellcasters at the end of the AP is basically asking for it to be a walk if you've got your own casters in a party.
==Aelryinth
If you look at Pathfinder Tales, it's amusing that the vast majority of such things are fighter based, and caster classes are either seriously underplayed or outright killed off early so they can't mess up the stories. Drizzt became an epic fighter because of the stories about him and the fact he really was really, really good...but if you try to represent that level of martial ability in stories, you get frowned on.
They aren't writing epic fighters in Pathfinder Tales. They are writing about level 5-6 fighters in a level 10-12 world. When one eidolon can take apart a whole team and nobody even notice the summoner is popping spells on it...yeah, I take their whole line on high level martials with a complete grain of salt. Even the books with the century year old forced servant of Pharasma is severely unimpressive when it comes time to fight, always overshadowed by the outsiders around him.
Side note: I was in two of the first three Pathfinder compilation anthologies of fan fiction, and wrote about a fighter, naturally enough. The editor first had problems with the basic duel, and I had to explain to him exactly how Crane Wing worked and the duel was basically reflecting game mechanics. The second story, the sheer force of the MC's blows, and his ability to take damage, were clearly way above human, and I had to point out to the reluctant editor just what Power Attack and magic weapons allowed you to do for damage, and just what high hit points and damage reduction meant you could take.
The AP's follow the same formula. Epic end AP fights are always magic-centered. There are no AP's where the end boss isn't a spellcaster or creatures with spell-like abilities, simply because endgame martials are not a threat to an adventuring party...they are minions to casters. The closest they come is Skull and Shackles, where they get around the problem by giving artifacts and unique abilities to the Pirate lord so he has some magical abilities to fall back on. And a magical ship. And magical constructs/undead to...
I guess this might kill any chances of Cut from the Air/Smash from the Air ever appearing then either.
IN PF Tales? Yeah. Too super-heroey. I mean, when one sting from a Wyvern is a life-threatening event for a decent level fighter...and a century year old elite swordsman is constantly overshadowed by CR 15 and less outsiders...ugh.
Seriously, there's one major short arc where that centuries old fighter with lots of combat experience nearly dies because of running out of water and food, while the outsider with him naturally doesn't have to worry about it.
No bags of holding with supplies. No Ring of Sustenance. Nothing with any common sense that is cheap to afford and use. Doesn't even bother to use the clerical powers he has to make food or water for himself.
It's just dumb to see, at times. I like the stories, but the protaganists are definitely idiots and dumbed/powered-down much of the time.
==Aelryinth
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IN PF Tales? Yeah. Too super-heroey. I mean, when one sting from a Wyvern is a life-threatening event for a decent level fighter...and a century year old elite swordsman is constantly overshadowed by CR 15 and less outsiders...ugh.
That's...not how I'd describe how that goes. And it's not clear that he's 15th level or anything close to that. Above 10th, certainly, but 15th? I'm skeptical. And if he's 13th level...a CR 15 Outsider should overshadow him.
Seriously, there's one major short arc where that centuries old fighter with lots of combat experience nearly dies because of running out of water and food, while the outsider with him naturally doesn't have to worry about it.
No bags of holding with supplies. No Ring of Sustenance. Nothing with any common sense that is cheap to afford and use. Doesn't even bother to use the clerical powers he has to make food or water for himself.
Uh...I'd need to re-read that, but wasn't his gear stolen before that incident? And even if it wasn't, most high level characters I know don't have Rings of Sustenance (and those that do have it for the two hours sleep, not the other uses), nor carry more than a week's worth of food and water at most in their Bag of Holding. Given that he usually has an Amulet of the Planes, and can thus just go somewhere that has that stuff at will, I'm not sure him lacking those things is a sign of incompetence.
Oh, and per the writer, he's an Inquisitor, not a Cleric, so assuming he has those spells is pretty much not valid (Spontaneous Caster, remember). And he explicitly has some levels in a martial class as well, making his spellcasting even less of a factor.
It's just dumb to see, at times. I like the stories, but the protaganists are definitely idiots and dumbed/powered-down much of the time.
I rather strongly disagree. Have you read The Worldwound Gambit? That has a bunch of martial characters doing some very impressive stuff (opposed by powerful demons).
But really, most of the Pathfinder Tales probably are bad examples for this. Not because the martial characters aren't competent, but because they do tend to focus on low to mid level characters. Salim (the aforementioned immortal swordsman from Death's Heretic) is definitely the highest level, and he's not past the low teens.
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Seriously people? This far in and I'm the first to mention Aroden?Aroden was a single classed Wizard who happened to use a sword.
I'm pretty sure that's not what people mean when they say 'swordsman' in this context.
The OP included Elric and Luke Skywalker amongst their examples. To me that throws any, 'no magical ability' requirement right out the window.
Aroden was famous for the swords he crafted and used. If his rise to mythic status and godhood on that basis 'doesn't count' then you're excluding the most iconic swordsman in the game setting.
As to still active mythic warrior types... like the mythic spellcasters they're only found in a few books introduced after the mythic rules were created. Mythic Realms has a few. There are two in Distant Shores, but they use a sickle and spears respectively.
Seriously people? This far in and I'm the first to mention Aroden?Aroden was a single classed Wizard who happened to use a sword.
I'm pretty sure that's not what people mean when they say 'swordsman' in this context.
The OP included Elric and Luke Skywalker amongst their examples. To me that throws any, 'no magical ability' requirement right out the window.
Aroden was famous for the swords he crafted and used. If his rise to mythic status and godhood on that basis 'doesn't count' then you're excluding the most iconic swordsman in the game setting.
As to still active mythic warrior types... like the mythic spellcasters they're only found in a few books introduced after the mythic rules were created. Mythic Realms has a few. There are two in Distant Shores, but they use a sickle and spears respectively.
There's a big difference between "Mixes spells and swordfighting" (Magus and Bloodrager being examples of this, or an Eldritch Knight/HellKnight signifier if you want to stretch it) and "Primarly casts spells, but also uses a sword" (Wizard). Aroden belongs in the latter group very clearly. If we take BAB as a measurment of sword skills, yes as a level 20 wizard Aroden did have a +10 BAB, but that's just as good as a level 10 Fighter.
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There's a big difference between "Mixes spells and swordfighting" (Magus and Bloodrager being examples of this, or an Eldritch Knight/HellKnight signifier if you want to stretch it) and "Primarly casts spells, but also uses a sword" (Wizard). Aroden belongs in the latter group very clearly. If we take BAB as a measurment of sword skills, yes as a level 20 wizard Aroden did have a +10 BAB, but that's just as good as a level 10 Fighter.Seriously people? This far in and I'm the first to mention Aroden?Aroden was a single classed Wizard who happened to use a sword.
I'm pretty sure that's not what people mean when they say 'swordsman' in this context.
The OP included Elric and Luke Skywalker amongst their examples. To me that throws any, 'no magical ability' requirement right out the window.
Aroden was famous for the swords he crafted and used. If his rise to mythic status and godhood on that basis 'doesn't count' then you're excluding the most iconic swordsman in the game setting.
In fact now that I think about it. All the various champions of the runelords could fit for what your looking for as long as they are still alive.
As to still active mythic warrior types... like the mythic spellcasters they're only found in a few books introduced after the mythic rules were created. Mythic Realms has a few. There are two in Distant Shores, but they use a sickle and spears respectively.
Also to add to that, the question was for a living and breathing swordmaster, and Aroden as we all know is dead.
As a side note the strongest graveknight is Ungarato, the Champion of Gluttony, a human graveknight barbarian 12/fighter 7/
marshal 4, roughly CR 23. Used a falchion and might still be around a kicking. The source is AP 94 pg 63.
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Also to add to that, the question was for a living and breathing swordmaster, and Aroden as we all know is dead.
That pretty much applies to the mega wizards as well, the bulk of the ones above 12th level are either disappeared or dead. The idea is that in a given campaign the mega characters should eventually be your PCs.
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That pretty much applies to the mega wizards as well, the bulk of the ones above 12th level are either disappeared or dead. The idea is that in a given campaign the mega characters should eventually be your PCs.
Also to add to that, the question was for a living and breathing swordmaster, and Aroden as we all know is dead.
If we talk specifically wizards, yes indeed. But fullcasters in general? (In the same way the swordmaster could be any full or 3/4 BAB class)
Off the top of my head, Baba Yaga, Elvanna, Abrogail Thrune, Razmir, Geb and Arazni (Last two technically undead but w/e), three of which are reasonably active these days.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IN PF Tales? Yeah. Too super-heroey. I mean, when one sting from a Wyvern is a life-threatening event for a decent level fighter...and a century year old elite swordsman is constantly overshadowed by CR 15 and less outsiders...ugh.
Seriously, there's one major short arc where that centuries old fighter with lots of combat experience nearly dies because of running out of water and food, while the outsider with him naturally doesn't have to worry about it.
No bags of holding with supplies. No Ring of Sustenance. Nothing with any common sense that is cheap to afford and use. Doesn't even bother to use the clerical powers he has to make food or water for himself.It's just dumb to see, at times. I like the stories, but the protaganists are definitely idiots and dumbed/powered-down much of the time.
==Aelryinth
There's reason to believe the outsiders might have class levels. Certainly the psychopomp doesn't seem like a standard issue one.
He had all of his gear stripped before he got exiled to that location. But he probably never had a chance to read any Paizo supplements to know what to shop for, either. In universe knowledge is always going to be poor, it's the best reason not to accept (mechanically provable) unkillable god wizards as an inevitability. They don't know everything we do about their universe and they get lazy or have resource constraints. Pharasma and her church aren't required to provide WBL to protagonists.
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That pretty much applies to the mega wizards as well, the bulk of the ones above 12th level are either disappeared or dead. The idea is that in a given campaign the mega characters should eventually be your PCs.
Also to add to that, the question was for a living and breathing swordmaster, and Aroden as we all know is dead.If we talk specifically wizards, yes indeed. But fullcasters in general? (In the same way the swordmaster could be any full or 3/4 BAB class)
Off the top of my head, Baba Yaga, Elvanna, Abrogail Thrune, Razmir, Geb and Arazni (Last two technically undead but w/e), three of which are reasonably active these days.
Hell's Rebels had a level 17 witch for some reason. She seems to have quite modest ambitions.