Multi-attack Ratfolk Rogue - sure this one will have been done before but here it is:
Ratfolk, Unchained Rogue (Scout or Waylayer);

1. Weapon Finesse (class), Sharpclaw;
2. Combat Trick (Piranah Strike);
3. Finesse Weapon Training (Claw), Sharptooth;
4. Weapon Focus (Claws);
5. Multi-attack;

So you get a full attack of 4 attacks a round with a tailblade, admittedly the bite and the tailblade are at -5 before you take Multiattack however this is a build that can shred when it gets sneak attack opportunities.

One point not raised yet, the value of gemstones (it could be argued) is kept artificially high in the real world. The diamond 'producers' operate like a cartel, controlling the number and quality of diamonds available, so the gp 'value' of a gem could and would vary... a better metric is possibly needed.

Oh and another point, we are at a stage where we can make synthetic diamonds quite easily so I suppose it would be viable for someone say, a group of dwarves to do so in a fantasy setting.

Oh, and another another point, it is theorised that on certain planets carbon under pressure could fall as a form of diamond rain so perhaps liquid and gaseous forms of 'diamond' could exist.

Okay Human Court Bard Diplomancer/Enchanter
Note that this build was also PFS legal and for campaigns where language dependancy is not a huge issue this build is the bees-knees (I played it in Kingmaker).

Alternate Race Traits:
Focussed Study (= Skill Focus: Diplomacy) & Silver Tongued. Take a diplomacy boosting trait (say +2) and at first level you will have a diplomacy skill (with 18 charisma) of:
+4 (Stat) +3 (Class Skill) +1 (Skill Rank) +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (Silver Tongued) +2 (trait) +1 (Heraldic Expertise) so +16 at first level PLUS Heraldic Expertise gives you a reroll 1/day AND you can move attitudes 3 steps.

But wait there's more...

At 2nd level your versatile performance (Perform Sing) gives you charisma to sense motive and bluff so you will have about a +9 to +10 Sense Motive and Bluff. Later on you can get Disguise, Intimidate, Acrobatics, Handle Animal and Fly as well.

AND...

Your 3rd level performance 'Mockery' allows you to debuff enemy Charisma based skills so in 'social combat' you are a beast.

THEN there's your enchantment spells and your performances (YES these are language dependant but that's not an unbeatable barrier to most enemies).

Your first level performance is a scaling debuff called Satire which not only reduces damage to your party but makes save DCs for fear and enchantment spells higher. So from 3rd level on if you focus your feats on your enchantment and other magics you will end up a VERY formidable enchanter as well as having exceptionally high social skills (which can be further augmented by bardic spell buffs).

AND FINALLY... If all that fails you have the ability cast buffing spells too...

Finally as an option you could focus your feats on the enchanter side of things, be a 'standard' bard for combat or explore a different race, e.g. Kitsune...

zza ni wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

I generally think Metamagic feats are bad. Wizards only get 10 feats, you have to use one for a metamagic ability, which not only ups the level slot of the spell, it also increases it's casting time. When for the most part you can just cast a higher level spell that's better overall.

(I'll admit that things the magus using magical knack etc are an exception).

wizards prepare spells, using metamagic for them doesn't increase the casting time, that is only for spontaneously casters.

also using spell perfection\metamagic rods\ other abilities to help with th elevel\time of casting is common, while heightened spell metamagic is one of the best ways to increase the spell's dc.

yeah, those other items work just fine. I love metamagic rods. However, as for increading the DC of a spll, it's still taking up a higher level spell slot, and there's probably a spell of that level that just as good, if not better then the spell you are using metamagic on.

I ban metamagic rods for the same reasons the o.p. dislikes the feats, they essentially allows the most powerful classes to 'buy' extra feats (but better as no level increase). Also ban items that add to spells known or give some degree of spontaneous casting (except arcane bonds). Casters need nerfing, martials need boosting.

Back to original thread, by and large I resent the feat tax feats (especially some of the critical feats), and some of the combat styles are plainly superior to others (dragon style). I can understand some 'flavour' feats but ultimately the bigger the game got the harder it was to balance them and account for the possible exploitation of them (e.g. Favoured Prestige Class & Prestigious Spellcaster, Accomplished Sneak Attacker, etc)

As a player, I really like to know how much the GM expects me to optimize, ideally in advance.

I aim for the golden rule, and do not inflict upon the GM what I do not wish to be inflicted upon me if I were to GM.

Like, give me a "cheese rating" for the game and I can work with that. High optimized games can be fun, especially with a beer or two, and especially for GMs who are normally hesitant to kill characters, but who can overcome this limitations because this group of hyper optimized murder hoboes clearly deserves nothing better.

For me, this is kind of session 0 stuff.

I'd add to this, your pcs are heroes, they can do stuff others can't (optimisation) for reasons others cannot (I am descended from a god, etc) but the session IS consensual and negotiated. That said, I'll kill stupid pcs at the drop of a dice roll and reward great role-playing with an untyped bonus.

In a word: Yes. Because otherwise... just otherwise...

From our Kingmaker campaign, I played a Court Bard which benefitted our rogue in 2 principle ways:

1. Glorious Epic (augmented by wide audience)"(Su): A court bard of 8th level or higher can weave captivating tales that engross those who hear them. Enemies within 30 feet become flat-footed unless they succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier). A save renders them immune to this ability for 24 hours. Glorious epic is a language-dependent, mind-affecting ability that uses audible components."
and
2. The Bard's Escape spell - https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bard-s-escape/ pretty much was a set up the party as you want it spell. Possibly broken.

If you are playing at high-levels and allow eladerhsip take these.

Ah reductionist 'role-playing'... each to their own I suppose.

Pity that paizo are not clarifying some of this cheese. As far as I'm concerned (and we play) there should be no early entry.

Assuming in the PF universe - Sivanah.

Otherwise Thor.

Wouldn't it be 8 hp?

Losing 4 to your FCB, and the hit die.

Or, if using FCB for something else... You still lose them.

Fair point but depends on race. Humans and half-elves have ways around that.

The skills you pick up, alone, are worth the hit points.

Agree but it was a mere correction for an ommission in the original reply.

strayshift wrote:

Drakaar wrote:

Fighter. Fighters get so many feats they can go any which way.

I like to take in two levels of Rogue to boost Refl saves, grant Evasion, and give two dice of sneak attack on Flank (take the feat that gives an extra die of SA). Also take the feat that gives you Flank if the opponent is up against a wall.

You may as well take 2 more and take weapon focus and a combat feat from the rogue talents at levels 2 & 4. Over the four levels you only lose 1 BAB and +2 on fort saves (but get +4 on reflex + evasion), not to mention the skill boosts and what would be +3d6 sneak attack with accomplished sneak attacker.

Four levels of Scout Rogue on a Greatsword-wielding, Gorum-worshipping, Vital Stike-charging, Weapon Master Fighter are awesome... easily worth the loss of one BAB. Take them at levels 4-7, right after you get Weapon Training. For a Weapon Master Fighter/Gorum's Swordmanship build, I actually prefer the Scout Rogue dip over my normal dip into Medium for Spirit Focus and Spirit Bonded armor...

My inner optimser forgot the 4 hit points as well...

Fighter. Fighters get so many feats they can go any which way.

I like to take in two levels of Rogue to boost Refl saves, grant Evasion, and give two dice of sneak attack on Flank (take the feat that gives an extra die of SA). Also take the feat that gives you Flank if the opponent is up against a wall.

You may as well take 2 more and take weapon focus and a combat feat from the rogue talents at levels 2 & 4. Over the four levels you only lose 1 BAB and +2 on fort saves (but get +4 on reflex + evasion), not to mention the skill boosts and what would be +3d6 sneak attack with accomplished sneak attacker.

Favourite is not necesarily the most optimised so I'll pick what I've played.

1. 5 levels of armoured hulk barbarian, the rest 2 handed weapon fighter. Fast, in-your-face-well armoured violence. The biggest pure damage numbers, the least subtlety.
2. Half-Orc Oath of Vengeance Paladin. Probably the hardest to kill character I've had.
3. Goliath Druid (+ companion). Bigger is better in this case.
4. Infernal Eldritch Scion Magus + eldritch heritage, strongest character I've had plus magic.

@OP

I'd go:

Dwarf - Armored Hulk Barb 11

Lvl1: Weapon Focus (Cestus - or w/e monk weapon you want)
Lvl2: Rage Power: Brawler
Lvl3: Ascetic Style
Lvl4: Rage Power: Greater Brawler
Lvl5: Ascetic Form
Lvl6: Rage Power: Lesser Beast Totem
Lvl7: Ascetic Style (Unarmed Strike is 1d6)
Lvl8: Rage Power: Beast Totem
Lvl9: Monastic Legacy (Unarmed Strike is now 1d10)
Lvl10: Rage Power: Greater Beast Totem (Pounce)
Lvl11: Power Attack (Unarmed Strike is now 2d6)
Lvl12: Rage Power: Come and Get Me
Lvl13: Improved Grapple

Lvl16: Unarmed Strike is now 2d10.

Now just get a reliable way to Enlarge Person yourself.

I'm think some of this on a character like a Phantom Thief might be interesting...

Quain martial artist trait for a small bump. Not unarmed strikes but Beast Totem obviously gives you claws + improved natural attack. Previous post has Dragon Style but there is also Ki-Rin sytyle.

You can never go wrong with a foresight diviner. Use the elven racial class bonus to get more rerolls.

Make a stand. Don't play. Tell the DM why.

strayshift wrote:

Zepheri wrote:

If someone told me which is the most evil school I would tell them, transmutation, spells like: disintegrate, curse, transform flesh to stone, baleful polymorph; they are examples that can show that this school is really evil even if it does not specify it.

For me divination is the most neutral school of all schools. It is only dedicated to knowing the past, present and future of people, things and places.

It's WHAT THEY DO with that knowledge... Did they ask before they pried into all your secrets? Enchantment is king. Let's just all live together in harmony. My harmony mind but you will be happy...

Knowledge is power, that is true, however, it depends on who uses it. In divination is the secret of immortality, how to be a god or how everything was created, but that depends on how you handle the information, and who is willing to believe what you say.Divination is a neutral school that gives the information to any creature that uses it and everyone can have the same information

Knowledge is power, and power is NEVER neutral.

Rule 1: ALL CHARACTERS HAVE A WEAKNESS. E.g. Someone will have a crap will save. Probably more than one. Confusion/Domination/Misdirecting them to attack each other.
Rule 2: The biggest threat to a PC is another PC.
Rule 3: Divide and conquer.

Also it is entirely possible for optimised characters to punch above their weight, the key is to vary the challenge. E.g., a Paladin will be less effective against neutral enemies. They will also morally struggle against good aligned enemies...

In short WHAT ARE THE WEAKNESSES IN THE PLAYER'S PARTY? Target them. No apologies.

If someone told me which is the most evil school I would tell them, transmutation, spells like: disintegrate, curse, transform flesh to stone, baleful polymorph; they are examples that can show that this school is really evil even if it does not specify it.

For me divination is the most neutral school of all schools. It is only dedicated to knowing the past, present and future of people, things and places.

It's WHAT THEY DO with that knowledge... Did they ask before they pried into all your secrets? Enchantment is king. Let's just all live together in harmony. My harmony mind but you will be happy...

I wonder how cheesed off my players would be if I banned full Arcane spellcasters from my tables... :O

I have a limited form of this, I ban metamagic rods (buying feats), I ban items such pages of spell knowledge, ring of wizardry, etc (to limit the spells available at the table).

Guess what? Arcane casters are still pre-eminent as a choice.

Meh, regardless if those types of magic are banned... SOME of us are willing to practice whatever we want, just saying...

Some things are much more fun if you're not supposed to do them after all...

As an enchantment practitioner I SUGGEST that you guys should carry on debating what an evil twisted bunch those necromancy practitioners are and just leave us far less dubious and far more ethical students of the arcane arts to practice being so low key that we're happy here behind the scenes, not harming (or controlling) anyone, not in the slightest, no sirs...

On a slightly side (I'm aware they are druid spells - but a wand/scroll is cheap) note I would imagine the spell Entangle would also reveal an invisible enemy as "This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around creatures in the area of effect or those that enter the area."

Likewise Plant Growth and similar spells will limit the caster's effective mobility to such an extent that you prevent their 'normal' movement away.

Dimensional Anchor should also put a stop to the teleport escapes.

Finally protection from evil should help with the summons.

What is the bare minimum you consider necessary for the archery side not to stink?

PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Clustered Shots?

What is the bare minimum you consider necessary for the mage side not to stink?

Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Varisian Tattoo?

An Industrious Urbanite, Overwhelming Magic Elf can start with Spell Focus Conjuration, AND Spell Focus Evocation... that covers pretty much everything you will likely be attaching to arrows.

If you just want to infuse the bow with magic, instead of the arrows, then Divine Bond, Scared Weapon, etc...

Throw in Favoured Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster - those 2 feats revolutionise some prestige classes (Eldritch Knight for example can lose just 1 caster level versus a full arcane caster).

Yeah, 'Rocket Tag' is kinda the entire point of Mythic, so the simplest solution (or at least a good first step) is to not play mythic...

This. Also put a maximum level your campaign goes to and adjust experience progression accordingly (i.e. slow).

Tidy up the rules, e.g. traits, and a final rebalance of some classes.

A wizard is best with a wide range of spells, but is strongest if they focus on those rather than aiming for eldritch knight/arcane archer/arcane trickster etc. Is a wizard with a dozen different tricks a generalist or a specialist?

The medium works as a generalist, but I've read people saying that they've found it works best when they focus on one spirit (champion).

Specialised bards, like the Cha 20 helpless-in-melee types you see sometimes probably are weaker than generalist bards.

There are some exceptions to the caster bard, my Kingmaker Court Bard was a charisma specialist and owned many battles with enchantment magic/buffs and many social situation to diplomancer level social skills/utility spells. There were many encounters where the will saves of significant enemies were buffed by the DM (which I had no problem with) but they still failed them by a fair margin. She was probably the most potent caster I mave played in combat and out.

Did it precisly for that reason, they had had a buff to con they forgot about, would have made one save and then survived the negative hit points.

Maybe not, paying is more a LE thing, now debauched ritual sacrifice per view might be appropriate.

High Priest Don King approves.

Interesting Character wrote:

Someone should make a documentary about the history of this thread.

You mean, like this thread?

The Succubus in a grapple thread - we name and shame!

Ryze Kuja wrote:

strayshift wrote:

This thread has been going on for nine years nearly. I'm wondering a. Does it have a live stream and b. Does it have any anniversary plans?

I think the only acceptable homage to this would be to have a "Succubus in a Grapple" Cosplay event, and call it SuccuCon. Attendees are encouraged to arrive dressed as their favorite pathfinder characters, monsters from the bestiary, or as our favorite: a Succubus Grappling a Female Druid.

I totally support this idea. I just wish I could afford to go.

SSure it will be pay per view.

This thread has been going on for nine years nearly. I'm wondering a. Does it have a live stream and b. Does it have any anniversary plans?

Court Bard - Singer (enchantment and diplomancy)
Magician - Keyboards (buffs and support fluff)
Arcane Duelist - Bass (HEAVY low notes)
Savage Skald - Lead Guitarist (Shredding)
Archaeologist - Drums (Support and 'unlocking' the beat)

Suddenly this reminded me that I want to see an all-Bard/Skald band party . . . .

1. Arcane Duelist (Combat).

As far as I understand there is a great deal of crossover between the two?

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Races_of_Golarion

There is one racial archetype you should look at - the Treesinger. You can take it as a half-elf, have decent physical stats and take a plant companion.

Level 1. Animal Soul - gives immunity to spells that plants are immune to (mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep effects, and stunning). Can affect companion with 'animal' spells.

Level 3. Green Faith Acolyte - Plants can be excluded from harmful spells.

Level 4. Wildshape - Plant only but they have better ability bonuses than non-plants (just watch that fire...) +1 Wisdom

Level 5. Natural Spell. That vine just cast a spell on me...

Level 7. Power Attack.

Level 8. Wild Shape = Plant Shape 2. +1 Wisdom

Level 9. Improved Grapple.

Alraune - 4 slams (1d10) with grab and constrict, 40' base speed

Shambling Mound - 2 slams (2d6) with grab and constrict, resist fire and electricity 20

Viper Vine - 1 bite (2d6 + 3d6 acid), 4 secondary tentacles (1d6) with grab, constrict and 20' reach, resist acid 20

Level 11. Powerful Shape. Better grab and CMB/CMD.

Level 12. Wild Shape = Plant Shape 3 (Note: Fast Healing 5!) +1 Wisdom.

Also the Ferocious Summons feat is worthy of inclusion.

Which race?

Let's see... you have probably one of the most powerful classes, with an obvious weakness, and as a DM you DON'T (on occasion) target it?

All DM's should. Familiars, Spell Focusses and Spellbooks are ALL FAIR GAME.

Why? Because the players will then invest resources to protect the weaknesses and that is resource they cannot spend elsewhere.

Now a lot of this is dependant upon the intelligence and the nature of the threat but I got way more response from pcs taking a spell book from them than I ever did an NPC. Also the pcs should have the opportunity to recover resources that they have lost (usually) but at the same time if the party expect you to just go easy on their most powerful characters, they are the ones who need to rethink their game not you.

I think a good healer probably needs Condition Mitigation. Stat Restoration the most. Healing is important but is often the least concernin in terms of "I can't do it right now" issues. (outside of the "i'm dying" situation of course).

As a solo healer and solo caster for most of the AP for a group that ran Iron Gods. Mitigating the damage or conditions were far more vital for me.

Channel. Condition mitgiation and drain/damage/etc stat fixing are the things that proved most vital. Channel was mainly for healing the entire group post battle in a way that didn't eat the spell slots.

As a strange note. I would say knowing your allies very well is important. You need to know who uses what tactics because your judgement will ressult in their death or their safety. Knowing that one character is the type to fight to the death and the other is the type who uses cover. One is clearly in higher danger. As well as suggesting tactics ti mitigate situations too. Such as spliting up or not, or suggesting usage of cover etc.

basically babysitting skills haha. YOu do what you do, to make them able to focus on what they do. is how i play my healer.

I agree with this and say this for just about every build query. It is very much contextual to the party you are with and their capabilities as well as the play styles of players. Of the five players I DM for, 2 are 'In your face' players, aggressive and leading the line. 2 are 'tactically minded' and playing the percentages unless they have to do something to save the situation and 1 is 'defensive', who has to be encouraged at times to take any risks. They would all play exactly the same build differently.

@strayshift, I don't know if your Court Bard wants to pal around with the likes of Cawn and his heterosexual lifemate, Izzek. Those two Tengu are pure trouble.

But yes, your diplomancer/enchanter Court Bard would be a welcome addition.

Cawn is just a pathological liar, that can provide moral support to Izzek if they get caught up in too much trouble and have to fight their way out. Your Glorious Epic could help Izzek deliver Sneak Attack, as well. Izzek is Cawn's protector... the bite to Cawn's bark... a cRogue, swinging a Greatsword.

Your Court Bard being Human could probably help a lot, too. Cawn can only be in Long-nose Form for so long. Does your Human Court Bard have a name? I can throw it in the mix with my ever-growing list of NPC's, if you don't mind me borrowing it.

You can google her stats on Obsidian Portal - her name is 'Catheshal' and the only thing not on the stat block are the versatile performance skills. We all need to know someone who can solve problems in different ways...

Human (Focussed Study), every level +1 rank in Heal & Knowledge Planes.
Merciful Healer (does not provoke a.o.o. using heal skill).
1. Skill Focus Heal - Healer's Hands;
3. Psychic Sensitivity (Heal);
5: Incredible Healer;
7: Psychic Healing;

Can use heal skill as a full round action to treat deadly wounds without provoking A.o.O.
Will heal D.C. 20 = 1 h.p./level plus ranks in knowledge planes. D.C. 25 = level plus ranks plus wisdom bonus.
If Heal Skill roll higher then that is the amount healed. (!!!)
Any excess h.p. = bonus hit points for 1 hour.
Can also treat statuses and there is a trait that allows 2/day heal skill.
No healer's kits required.

yES, BUT ALSO i SUSPECT THE 2ND ED PRODUCTS WILL END UP WITH 1E 'TRANSLATIONS...'

Bloody caps lock.

yES, BUT ALSO i SUSPECT THE 2ND ED PRODUCTS WILL END UP WITH 1E 'TRANSLATIONS...'

Simplify traits? Please be more precise.

A crossbow with it's own "Str score" to determine it's damage would be interesting. Also I wish heavy crossbows bypassed armor/natural armor at close range like guns.

There are hundreds of them, most useless, some obscurely circumstantial, some at least a feat, standardise the rules and abilities of feats (roughly half a feat) so that the players may have a limit to them and are free to add flavour around the description.

9roughly

This thread is over 8 years old.

Time for specialist capstones!

** spoiler omitted **

Next up: wizard schools!

I AM A GOD! Imperious Bloodline.