strayshift's page

Nice character concept.

As previously mentioned there are the Favoured Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster feats. These cost four feats to get full casting progession but I built a 'switch hitter' route where I focussed on archery at the beginning and took power attack/toughness/improved initative from the bloodline feats (thus 'regaining' three of the four feat cost) to round out the hand to hand combat abilities. This build would only really come together at higher levels but was viable.

The other think to look at is just staying in bloodrager up to when you qualify for D.D. and not spending the feats to improve casting (just take favoured prestige class) - you would be a more potent martial that way but that depends on your role in the party.

Mesmerising Tattoo adds +1 to will saves.

Multi-attack Ratfolk Rogue - sure this one will have been done before but here it is:
Ratfolk, Unchained Rogue (Scout or Waylayer);

1. Weapon Finesse (class), Sharpclaw;
2. Combat Trick (Piranah Strike);
3. Finesse Weapon Training (Claw), Sharptooth;
4. Weapon Focus (Claws);
5. Multi-attack;

So you get a full attack of 4 attacks a round with a tailblade, admittedly the bite and the tailblade are at -5 before you take Multiattack however this is a build that can shred when it gets sneak attack opportunities.

One point not raised yet, the value of gemstones (it could be argued) is kept artificially high in the real world. The diamond 'producers' operate like a cartel, controlling the number and quality of diamonds available, so the gp 'value' of a gem could and would vary... a better metric is possibly needed.

Oh and another point, we are at a stage where we can make synthetic diamonds quite easily so I suppose it would be viable for someone say, a group of dwarves to do so in a fantasy setting.

Oh, and another another point, it is theorised that on certain planets carbon under pressure could fall as a form of diamond rain so perhaps liquid and gaseous forms of 'diamond' could exist.

Okay Human Court Bard Diplomancer/Enchanter
Note that this build was also PFS legal and for campaigns where language dependancy is not a huge issue this build is the bees-knees (I played it in Kingmaker).

Alternate Race Traits:
Focussed Study (= Skill Focus: Diplomacy) & Silver Tongued. Take a diplomacy boosting trait (say +2) and at first level you will have a diplomacy skill (with 18 charisma) of:
+4 (Stat) +3 (Class Skill) +1 (Skill Rank) +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (Silver Tongued) +2 (trait) +1 (Heraldic Expertise) so +16 at first level PLUS Heraldic Expertise gives you a reroll 1/day AND you can move attitudes 3 steps.

But wait there's more...

At 2nd level your versatile performance (Perform Sing) gives you charisma to sense motive and bluff so you will have about a +9 to +10 Sense Motive and Bluff. Later on you can get Disguise, Intimidate, Acrobatics, Handle Animal and Fly as well.

AND...

Your 3rd level performance 'Mockery' allows you to debuff enemy Charisma based skills so in 'social combat' you are a beast.

THEN there's your enchantment spells and your performances (YES these are language dependant but that's not an unbeatable barrier to most enemies).

Your first level performance is a scaling debuff called Satire which not only reduces damage to your party but makes save DCs for fear and enchantment spells higher. So from 3rd level on if you focus your feats on your enchantment and other magics you will end up a VERY formidable enchanter as well as having exceptionally high social skills (which can be further augmented by bardic spell buffs).

AND FINALLY... If all that fails you have the ability cast buffing spells too...

Finally as an option you could focus your feats on the enchanter side of things, be a 'standard' bard for combat or explore a different race, e.g. Kitsune...

I personally would go:

1 Spell Focus Evocation
3 Greater Spell Focus Evocation
5 Intensify Spell
7 Empower + Widen Spell (Bloodline)
9 Piercing Spell
11 Persistant Spell
13. Dazing Spell + Toughness (Bloodline)

Sorry I was caught in a time warp. I thought I was back in the late 1970's, early 1980's...

Played and seen played a few different Paladins, be happy to comment.

zza ni wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

I generally think Metamagic feats are bad. Wizards only get 10 feats, you have to use one for a metamagic ability, which not only ups the level slot of the spell, it also increases it's casting time. When for the most part you can just cast a higher level spell that's better overall.

(I'll admit that things the magus using magical knack etc are an exception).

wizards prepare spells, using metamagic for them doesn't increase the casting time, that is only for spontaneously casters.

also using spell perfection\metamagic rods\ other abilities to help with th elevel\time of casting is common, while heightened spell metamagic is one of the best ways to increase the spell's dc.

yeah, those other items work just fine. I love metamagic rods. However, as for increading the DC of a spll, it's still taking up a higher level spell slot, and there's probably a spell of that level that just as good, if not better then the spell you are using metamagic on.

I ban metamagic rods for the same reasons the o.p. dislikes the feats, they essentially allows the most powerful classes to 'buy' extra feats (but better as no level increase). Also ban items that add to spells known or give some degree of spontaneous casting (except arcane bonds). Casters need nerfing, martials need boosting.

Back to original thread, by and large I resent the feat tax feats (especially some of the critical feats), and some of the combat styles are plainly superior to others (dragon style). I can understand some 'flavour' feats but ultimately the bigger the game got the harder it was to balance them and account for the possible exploitation of them (e.g. Favoured Prestige Class & Prestigious Spellcaster, Accomplished Sneak Attacker, etc)

Gnome Sorcerer (say Arcane Bloodline), with the effortless trickery feat (quote: "Benefit: You can maintain concentration on one spell of the illusion school as a swift action. This has no effect on spells of other schools or on illusion spells with durations that don’t depend on your active concentration. While you may only maintain one spell as a swift action, you may take your move and standard actions to maintain other spells normally, if you wish.") who has cast a persistant 'image' spell.

Swift = maintain illusion.
Move = Move or maintain concentration on spell 2.
Standard = Cast spell 2.

As a player, I really like to know how much the GM expects me to optimize, ideally in advance.

I aim for the golden rule, and do not inflict upon the GM what I do not wish to be inflicted upon me if I were to GM.

Like, give me a "cheese rating" for the game and I can work with that. High optimized games can be fun, especially with a beer or two, and especially for GMs who are normally hesitant to kill characters, but who can overcome this limitations because this group of hyper optimized murder hoboes clearly deserves nothing better.

For me, this is kind of session 0 stuff.

I'd add to this, your pcs are heroes, they can do stuff others can't (optimisation) for reasons others cannot (I am descended from a god, etc) but the session IS consensual and negotiated. That said, I'll kill stupid pcs at the drop of a dice roll and reward great role-playing with an untyped bonus.

In a word: Yes. Because otherwise... just otherwise...

Doesn't matter what the abilities are, ask your pcs which one wants it. Otherwise it will become something they don't want/use.

From our Kingmaker campaign, I played a Court Bard which benefitted our rogue in 2 principle ways:

1. Glorious Epic (augmented by wide audience)"(Su): A court bard of 8th level or higher can weave captivating tales that engross those who hear them. Enemies within 30 feet become flat-footed unless they succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier). A save renders them immune to this ability for 24 hours. Glorious epic is a language-dependent, mind-affecting ability that uses audible components."
and
2. The Bard's Escape spell - https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bard-s-escape/ pretty much was a set up the party as you want it spell. Possibly broken.

If you are playing at high-levels and allow eladerhsip take these.

Ah reductionist 'role-playing'... each to their own I suppose.

strayshift wrote:

Pity that paizo are not clarifying some of this cheese. As far as I'm concerned (and we play) there should be no early entry.

Honestly? I think it makes the prestige class fun. What I have always loved about pathfinder is the ability to take strange options and combine them in unique ways that make them better than you expect...hell that's why I love spellcasters in general!!!

I mean if you don't like the idea of "early entry" then I would honestly just ban the mystic theurge and let players go for an ancient lorekeeper with dreamed secrets, a Halycon Druid, or a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer

No you just require 3 or 4 levels of each of the casting classes like I did do when I played it. Cheese doesn't equate to better.

Pity that paizo are not clarifying some of this cheese. As far as I'm concerned (and we play) there should be no early entry.

Good to see a mystic theurge guide and having played one, for me there are few aspects of the class that need addressing:

1. The level limit of the campaign is critical. DO NOT PLAY THIS CLASS if you are not going to get to very high levels. There is only pain. At high levels however, as you near the end of your M.T. levels and after you return to one of your casting classes, there will be 16/17 levels in your primary class and 13/14 levels in a.n. other class.

This means if you have a class that needs to get to 4th level to get their 2nd level spells YOU WILL NOT GET 9TH LEVEL SPELLS AT THE END-GAME. For me getting your 2nd level spells at 3rd level for both classes is a must.

2. It is more M.A.D. than your other casters and your save D.C.s are likely lower so your casting ROLE in the party needs to accomodate this. Buffing and defensive spells ahould be your forte until you hit double figures and your stats/save d.c.s climb.

3. The M.T. very much needs other casters in the party between levels 4-12 certainly. These are the levels where you feel the split caster levels most.

4. Use Magic Device, I feel this is less of a priority for you than other casters. Yes your caster level is lower but your spell breadth is way better.

5. You will get 6/7 levels in your 'principle' class, let this guide your choice of archetype/school etc. To illustrate the Reincarnation Druid does not get Many Lives until 5th level, as an M.T. that will be your 18th level! Where as the Menhir Savant gets place magic and spirit sense in their first 2 levels (at latest by your 5th level).

Anyway great to see the guide well done for all your hard work.

Assuming in the PF universe - Sivanah.

Otherwise Thor.

One more flavour thing you could develop with a staff magus is the feat: Polearm Acrobat. Get a trait that gives you acrobatics as a class skill (Reckless for example) and you can move around the battle much more easily.

VoodistMonk wrote:

Do Magi have an Arcana to boost the DC and/or CL of wands they wield to use their own instead of the wands? Not unlike the Magician Bard's Wand Mastery at 10 and 16, respectively?

Yup: WAND MASTERY. I don't think they have anything to use their own Caster Level though, so the Magician Bard is a little better at that still.

Using Staves: Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. UNLIKE WITH OTHER SORTS OF MAGIC ITEMS, THE WIELDER CAN USE HIS CASTER LEVEL WHEN ACTIVATING THE POWER OF THE STAFF IF ITS HIGHER THAN THE CASTER LEVEL OF THE STAFF. (My emphasis). This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spells, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than those from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependent on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are also harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming spell resistance.

"Imperious: Heroic Echo: My understanding of this is that the +1 increase to Morale Bonuses (and eventually Competence Bonuses) for yourself is not limited in uses (it is constant), and only the sharing with allies is limited in uses per day. Is this correct? The way they worded the last sentence (at least as it appears on both Archives of Nethys and www.d20fsrd.com) is confusing."

The wording is "when you receive a morale bonus from any spell, spell-like ability, or magic item, including those you cast on yourself, that bonus increases by +1. At 9th level, this ability also applies to competence bonuses. If you receive a morale effect (or a competence effect at 9th level) that affects an area or multiple targets, as an immediate action you can share your increased bonus with all other recipients. THIS INCREASE TO OTHER PARTICIPANTS (my emphasis) lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus. You can use this ability once per day, plus one time per three levels after 3rd."

So the bonus for you is the duration of the spell effect, for anyone else it is your charisma bonus number of rounds. The shared bonus is limited in its usages per day.

Derklord wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Now these are not considered high-tier options for a Witch

Huh? In what universe are Protective Luck + Soothsayer not considered "high-tier options"? I have ranked all hexes in my spreadsheet, and those are two of the just eight hexes that I've given a rating of 5.

I was thinking of Protective Luck without Cackle. Most of the Hex discussions I've seen focus around Cackle being the best strategy (which it basically is) and getting the Sleep Hex ASAP.

But yeah, I really like Protective Luck plus Soothsayer, even without Cackle (I have this for my Hexcrafter Magus). It's a protective buff fir the first few rounds of combat without taking any actions, which really aleviates the problems with being ambushed.

Second the Protective Luck vote. In situations where you have a road-block martial it can greatly enhance their survivability.

Wouldn't it be 8 hp?

Losing 4 to your FCB, and the hit die.

Or, if using FCB for something else... You still lose them.

Fair point but depends on race. Humans and half-elves have ways around that.

The skills you pick up, alone, are worth the hit points.

Agree but it was a mere correction for an ommission in the original reply.

strayshift wrote:

Drakaar wrote:

Fighter. Fighters get so many feats they can go any which way.

I like to take in two levels of Rogue to boost Refl saves, grant Evasion, and give two dice of sneak attack on Flank (take the feat that gives an extra die of SA). Also take the feat that gives you Flank if the opponent is up against a wall.

You may as well take 2 more and take weapon focus and a combat feat from the rogue talents at levels 2 & 4. Over the four levels you only lose 1 BAB and +2 on fort saves (but get +4 on reflex + evasion), not to mention the skill boosts and what would be +3d6 sneak attack with accomplished sneak attacker.

Four levels of Scout Rogue on a Greatsword-wielding, Gorum-worshipping, Vital Stike-charging, Weapon Master Fighter are awesome... easily worth the loss of one BAB. Take them at levels 4-7, right after you get Weapon Training. For a Weapon Master Fighter/Gorum's Swordmanship build, I actually prefer the Scout Rogue dip over my normal dip into Medium for Spirit Focus and Spirit Bonded armor...

My inner optimser forgot the 4 hit points as well...

Fighter. Fighters get so many feats they can go any which way.

I like to take in two levels of Rogue to boost Refl saves, grant Evasion, and give two dice of sneak attack on Flank (take the feat that gives an extra die of SA). Also take the feat that gives you Flank if the opponent is up against a wall.

You may as well take 2 more and take weapon focus and a combat feat from the rogue talents at levels 2 & 4. Over the four levels you only lose 1 BAB and +2 on fort saves (but get +4 on reflex + evasion), not to mention the skill boosts and what would be +3d6 sneak attack with accomplished sneak attacker.

Favourite is not necesarily the most optimised so I'll pick what I've played.

1. 5 levels of armoured hulk barbarian, the rest 2 handed weapon fighter. Fast, in-your-face-well armoured violence. The biggest pure damage numbers, the least subtlety.
2. Half-Orc Oath of Vengeance Paladin. Probably the hardest to kill character I've had.
3. Goliath Druid (+ companion). Bigger is better in this case.
4. Infernal Eldritch Scion Magus + eldritch heritage, strongest character I've had plus magic.

Dragon78 wrote:

The 4th level bonus spell(gained at 9th level) for the Unicorn bloodline is neutralize poison. It's missing because of a miss print.

Thank you for this!!!

I would also throw in Piercing Spell. Edit: You already have apologies.

Hi, firstly well done, great guide.

Having played a few sorcerers to a fair level here's a couple niche points:

1. Imperious Bloodline - at 9th level Heroic Echo also boosts competence bonuses from spells, as well as morale. The 4th level spell Grand Destiny is a fantastic one to benefit from this. A simple Bless spell was the most common useage of this ability too - this was probably the Bloodline Arcana I used more than any other. Pretty much most fights it got used, so that frequency of utility is a massive plus in my opinion.

2. Dreamspun/Visionary Bloodline - The Lullaby ability when combined with a Sorcerer Robe means you can lullaby as a swift action then cast a sleep spell (or choose not to...) This was a pretty effective combination for my enchantment based caster. Agree with you that the Visionary Bloodline is marginally better (in a general adventuring sense) but it depends on your G.M.'s receptiveness to divination magic and whether they like to ambush your rest periods.

3. Persistant Spell - This is one of the best metamagics in my opinion. Should be covered.

4. Intensified Spell - essential for blasters. Again should be covered.

Again minor points and I accept the metamagics are not finished.

Well done

G

661. Tea-leaves, nuances of leaf and purity of leaf. The Difference between a level 10 and a level 11 Diviner...'
662. 'Are Visionaries Dangerous? A defence of conformist thinking.' For those of a HIGHLY lawful bent.
663. 'Are Conservatives dangerous?' A counter volume to the previous but based more upon real events than unproven fears. For those of a rationalist neutral bent.
664. 'Of course conservatives are dangerous!' For those of a highly chaotic nature.

@OP

I'd go:

Dwarf - Armored Hulk Barb 11

Lvl1: Weapon Focus (Cestus - or w/e monk weapon you want)
Lvl2: Rage Power: Brawler
Lvl3: Ascetic Style
Lvl4: Rage Power: Greater Brawler
Lvl5: Ascetic Form
Lvl6: Rage Power: Lesser Beast Totem
Lvl7: Ascetic Style (Unarmed Strike is 1d6)
Lvl8: Rage Power: Beast Totem
Lvl9: Monastic Legacy (Unarmed Strike is now 1d10)
Lvl10: Rage Power: Greater Beast Totem (Pounce)
Lvl11: Power Attack (Unarmed Strike is now 2d6)
Lvl12: Rage Power: Come and Get Me
Lvl13: Improved Grapple

Lvl16: Unarmed Strike is now 2d10.

Now just get a reliable way to Enlarge Person yourself.

I'm think some of this on a character like a Phantom Thief might be interesting...

Ryze Kuja wrote:

As far as Empowering Touch of Idiocy, your avg roll is going to be a 3 or a 4, so that becomes a -4 or -6 penalty to Int/Wis/Cha on average with Empower. Since we're cranking up the Enchantment DC to nigh-godlike,

Since your save DCs are already incredible, you should use your first turn to hit that caster with a save-or-lose spell; spending your turn (and a high-level slot) to give him -3 to will saves is redundant.

It is worth seeing what the other characters in your party can do to assist you and likewise, e.g. a good intimidate martial.

Quain martial artist trait for a small bump. Not unarmed strikes but Beast Totem obviously gives you claws + improved natural attack. Previous post has Dragon Style but there is also Ki-Rin sytyle.

Oh and one thing I forgot, if your DM allows Leadership geta COURT BARD follower for their satire performance (which negatively affects will saves vs fear and enchantment).

Depending upon the level you will play to consider:

a. Arcane Bloodline (the bloodline arcanae and School Power abilities can potentially add +3 to save DC's.
or b. Dreamspun Bloodline (potentially adds +4 to the save dc for sleep spells).

But assuming Fey, for feats I'd go:

1. Spell Focus,
3. Greater Spell Focus,
5. Piercing Spell,
7. Persistant Spell & Improved Initiative (Bloodline),
9. Extend Spell,
11. Combat Casting or Silent Spell or Still Spell,
13. Combat Casting or Silent Spell or Still Spell & Quicken Spell (Bloodline)
15. Spell Perfection.

Time is the best limit, crafting is c.1,000gp/day so that constrains spending in my games.

You can never go wrong with a foresight diviner. Use the elven racial class bonus to get more rerolls.

The Imperious Bloodline increases morale bonuses by +1. For the duration for you, but only a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier for others (and is slightly limited). Though rounds/Cha is usually plenty if you are casting good hope once per fight.

Annoyingly this means you either need a 3-level dip in sorcerer or the Improved Eldritch Heritage feat. Or single-class sorcerer and find a way to add good hope to the sorcerer spell list, though I can't think of one right now.

edit: Ring of Spell Knowledge IV. That would work.

Having played an Imperious Bloodline Sorcerer I can second this - IN ADDITION NOTE they can add to a competence bonus (from a sell, spell-like ability or item) too, e.g. the guidance cantrip for doing this to skills on the cheap.

Mudfoot wrote:

Bonus languages equal to starting Int Mod isn't really very much. Most PCs don't start with an Int more than 12, and even Alchemists, Investigators and Magi probably won't beat 16. IMC, there's only one PC with more than 12.

In many countries on Earth, speaking more than one language is normal. I learned 5 at school, if you include Latin and Greek.

Most people who kill things daily with a sword are not spending much time in school learning languages...

They learn power attack and cleave.

Putting points in linguistics is essentially what amounts to learning languages in school.

People who live in countries with a lot of CULTURAL INTERACTION learn multiple languages. Let's see, how many human 'cultures' does Golarion have? How many non-human? Multiple languages would be the norm, as it is in our world. The english speaking world needs to realise this.

ALSO there are some racial traits which allow you to learn 2 languages for each point of linguistics.

Perhaps if so that's unfortuante I find it a lot easier to scroll through a written document than play a hour long youtube video.

Google now want you to download an app to access a load of their content. Cnuts.

His channel does d&d 5th ed stuff so that won't be any help. He may respond to a message though?

There are a whole lot of wizard guides that can be found here:

http://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides .html

Make a stand. Don't play. Tell the DM why.

I would agree you are short in the arcane dept. Verdant bloodline sorcerer? Earth School wizard? This would also be useful as a magister in the kingdom management side of things.

strayshift wrote:

Zepheri wrote:

If someone told me which is the most evil school I would tell them, transmutation, spells like: disintegrate, curse, transform flesh to stone, baleful polymorph; they are examples that can show that this school is really evil even if it does not specify it.

For me divination is the most neutral school of all schools. It is only dedicated to knowing the past, present and future of people, things and places.

It's WHAT THEY DO with that knowledge... Did they ask before they pried into all your secrets? Enchantment is king. Let's just all live together in harmony. My harmony mind but you will be happy...

Knowledge is power, that is true, however, it depends on who uses it. In divination is the secret of immortality, how to be a god or how everything was created, but that depends on how you handle the information, and who is willing to believe what you say.Divination is a neutral school that gives the information to any creature that uses it and everyone can have the same information

Knowledge is power, and power is NEVER neutral.

Rule 1: ALL CHARACTERS HAVE A WEAKNESS. E.g. Someone will have a crap will save. Probably more than one. Confusion/Domination/Misdirecting them to attack each other.
Rule 2: The biggest threat to a PC is another PC.
Rule 3: Divide and conquer.

Also it is entirely possible for optimised characters to punch above their weight, the key is to vary the challenge. E.g., a Paladin will be less effective against neutral enemies. They will also morally struggle against good aligned enemies...

In short WHAT ARE THE WEAKNESSES IN THE PLAYER'S PARTY? Target them. No apologies.

If someone told me which is the most evil school I would tell them, transmutation, spells like: disintegrate, curse, transform flesh to stone, baleful polymorph; they are examples that can show that this school is really evil even if it does not specify it.

For me divination is the most neutral school of all schools. It is only dedicated to knowing the past, present and future of people, things and places.

It's WHAT THEY DO with that knowledge... Did they ask before they pried into all your secrets? Enchantment is king. Let's just all live together in harmony. My harmony mind but you will be happy...

I wonder how cheesed off my players would be if I banned full Arcane spellcasters from my tables... :O

I have a limited form of this, I ban metamagic rods (buying feats), I ban items such pages of spell knowledge, ring of wizardry, etc (to limit the spells available at the table).

Guess what? Arcane casters are still pre-eminent as a choice.

Meh, regardless if those types of magic are banned... SOME of us are willing to practice whatever we want, just saying...

Some things are much more fun if you're not supposed to do them after all...

As an enchantment practitioner I SUGGEST that you guys should carry on debating what an evil twisted bunch those necromancy practitioners are and just leave us far less dubious and far more ethical students of the arcane arts to practice being so low key that we're happy here behind the scenes, not harming (or controlling) anyone, not in the slightest, no sirs...

On a slightly side (I'm aware they are druid spells - but a wand/scroll is cheap) note I would imagine the spell Entangle would also reveal an invisible enemy as "This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around creatures in the area of effect or those that enter the area."

Likewise Plant Growth and similar spells will limit the caster's effective mobility to such an extent that you prevent their 'normal' movement away.

Dimensional Anchor should also put a stop to the teleport escapes.

Finally protection from evil should help with the summons.