What the title says mostly. I was wondering what are people's opinions on these classes now that enough time has passed for players to play them and GMs to GM them.
On my part I've been playing a bit of Psychic and I'm liking the class so far. Having 2 focus spells early on is very strong and Unleash Psyche with Electric Arc feels amazing for when you don't feel like expending resources. No idea how it fares later on but I expect the class to peak around 10th level. After that I think just having more spell slots would be generally better. About the feel of the class, I would say it feels the best of all spellcasters in the early levels IMO. There is something about not having to worry about using your slots for silly stuff early on.
Haven't seen a Thaumaturge yet, but i will next weekend as a friend's PC died recently and they plan to play one. Just from building one and theorycrafting for a bit I think the class is both powerful in its own unique way and easy to slot in most teams. It also seems really fun to play. Hope my impressions stay like this after seeing it in the field.
So what are the general impresions on these classes? I'm really curious to know.
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They both seem pretty beloved. There are some quibbles - worries about Psychic balance, and the Thaumaturge being so married to Recall Knowledge - but the flavor and feel on both is a home run.
I can only hope the eventual Inquisitor is handled with as much love as the 2e Psychic clearly was.
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They both seem pretty beloved. There are some quibbles - worries about Psychic balance, and the Thaumaturge being so married to Recall Knowledge - but the flavor and feel on both is a home run.
I can only hope the eventual Inquisitor is handled with as much love as the 2e Psychic clearly was.
The only balance worry I have about Psychic is the dedication. Imaginary Weapon on Magus seems like a bit too much (it even works with spell swipe when amped, finally making the feat useful). Seeing how good it is early on I wouldn't mind if it ends up being weaker compared to other casters in the later levels, honestly.
And yes, the flavor so far has hit the spot 100% for me.
Thaumaturge is at minimum on-par with the baseline set by crb classes. It is a bit behind rogue on combat but might be the single best skill class in the system by virtue of consolidating all knowledge into 1 skill that is auto advanced to legendary on top of 3 legendary skills and the book providing 2 extra flexible legendary skills at paragon.
Psychic is adequate, but ultimately, it's biggest contribution is as one of the most loaded archetypes in the system. It has the added bonus of not having any skill requirements on its archetype casting feats so it imposes no additional build constraints on characters that take them.
I've heard some say starlit span magus with psychic dedication is so loaded that it is the equal of thief rogues and possibly the best dex character in the system.
I've heard some say starlit span magus with psychic dedication is so loaded that it is the equal of thief rogues and possibly the best dex character in the system.One of the concepts I have as a backup for one of my current characters is precisely that. With human you can also pick Arcane Fist at 7 through Ancestral Paragon and Natural Ambition for Spell Swipe at 8 as melee back-up. Amped Shield seems less useful but being able to cast it on a melee ally also seems pretty good for a setup turn if you want to enter your stance. The whole gimmick also looks like what an Elden Ring boss would pull off, so it gains extra points for that.
Psychic is a good with just a few issues with specific cantrips but otherwise fits decently as a damage focused occult caster.
This is a fear i have for the class. So far I have only played an Oscilating Wave and it feels good, but some of the other conscious minds just seem weird to play to me. For example, I just can't see the point behind Unbound Step mechanically even if thematically it sounds really cool.
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Biggest complaint my players have had about the psychic is that it feels like it loses steam at 12 when most other characters can pick up refocus 2. Before that, having more focus points per encounter made them feel like they had a real edge, but after that they start to feel the fewer slots a lot more acutely.
Minor issues over accuracy, a dissatisfaction with certain conscious minds (unbound step...), but generally people have enjoyed the class a lot, especially at low levels.
Thaumaturge is cool, decent build variety although some complaints about a lot of thaumaturges ending up with the same feat choices.
The one time I saw someone get frustrated with the thaumaturge is when someone tried to grab two passive implements and got really upset at the action economy revolving around that trap.
A magus can only pick up imaginary weapon at 6th after psychic dedication. Definitely the best focus point spellstrike though.It is also the best spellstrike cantrip, for all it is worth. With most other dedications the earlier you can pick one is at 4, so not really that much of a loss. If you want to cheese a bit, i guess you can go Oscilating wave at 2, pick Produce Flame (with the d12 and the splash scales a bit better than 2d6 focus spells) and then retrain at 6.
Thaumaturge is cool, decent build variety although some complaints about a lot of thaumaturges ending up with the same feat choices.
What were the feats you have seen the most then? I can see that happening considering most of the Thaumaturge power comes from class features instead of feats, so no much to choose from in that sense. If I had to guess I would say Scroll Thaumaturgy, Breached Defenses and Sympathetic Vulnerabilities. Were you refering to any of those?
Psychic is adequate, but ultimately, it's biggest contribution is as one of the most loaded archetypes in the system. It has the added bonus of not having any skill requirements on its archetype casting feats so it imposes no additional build constraints on characters that take them.
Skill requirements on psychic archetype casting feats were added by the FAQ.
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I've only dabbled with the Psychic so far and it has been a wonderful experience. The freedom it has at early levels because with its amps and cantrips compared to other casters is a big boon.
I'm also a huge fan of playstyles that get boosts at risky costs so Unleash Psyche really scratches that itch. There are a few feats that push this dynamic even further, but Strain Mind is what really captured me. It's a feat I wish Oracles had an equivalent. It's also all very thematic to many psychic tropes, so I appreciate that.
Speaking of, the one I'm having the most fun with right now is my Silent Whisper Psychic. It shocked me how I can fully commit to the telepath trope and still perform very well. I'm offensively useless against the many mindless enemies in our campaign for but the party support it provides outside wrecking the mindful makes it barely an inconvenience. My party was a bunch of naysayers so it's been a joy proving them wrong.
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If I had to guess I would say Scroll Thaumaturgy, Breached Defenses and Sympathetic Vulnerabilities. Were you refering to any of those?
Yep! Natural Ambition + Diverse Lore + Scroll Thaumaturgy was also a super popular combo for humans.
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For example, I just can't see the point behind Unbound Step mechanically even if thematically it sounds really cool.
I've started playing my Unbound Step Psychic at Paizocon Europe this weekend, and I really got a lot of fun. One action for 70ft. of movement is really funny and saved me from spending a round moving for the surprise attack in the library when we were all scattered around. And I even managed to use the Lens to give the Monk 5ft. of move, allowing him to Flurry instead of losing an entire round moving, golden.
You just need Electric Arc to make it work so you have your Focus Points for your amps (but Electric Arc is a staple on most Psychic builds, I'm still baffled to see it overlooked in the few guides I've read as of now).
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Phase bolt can help you negate a shield. I think it really depends on what kind of magus you're talking about
Phase Bolt will negate the shield only for the spell, not for the Strike. Generating the extreme weirdness of missing with the Strike but hitting with the Bolt. Expect a lot of table variation on this one as the RAW is really illogical.
Produce Flame is also behind Imaginary Weapon on single target damage, even after factoring the melee upgrade and the splash. The temp health from Ray of Frost is nice for a melee Magus, though. Movement-wise, Dimensional Assault recharges your spellstrike and Amped Warp Step doesn't, I don't think melee magus want to make that trade off considering how much value each individual action of theirs has (It is pretty good on a Starlit Span magus for creating a big distance when enemies close in, though).
For example, I just can't see the point behind Unbound Step mechanically even if thematically it sounds really cool.I've started playing my Unbound Step Psychic at Paizocon Europe this weekend, and I really got a lot of fun. One action for 70ft. of movement is really funny and saved me from spending a round moving for the surprise attack in the library when we were all scattered around. And I even managed to use the Lens to give the Monk 5ft. of move, allowing him to Flurry instead of losing an entire round moving, golden.
To me at least, the issues with Unbound step are that its best tool, Amped Warp Step, can be poached by mostly anything at level 6 and that their level 6 and 10 cantrips are a bit underwhelming IMO.
You just need Electric Arc to make it work so you have your Focus Points for your amps (but Electric Arc is a staple on most Psychic builds, I'm still baffled to see it overlooked in the few guides I've read as of now).
100% agree, Electric Arc is amazing on any Psychic. In the beginning of Age of Ashes I managed to mostly solo a few low level encounters without taking damage making use of Unleash + Electric Arc and some door shenanigans.
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They are cool, not my type of flavor though and I have a few problems with them.
Thaumaturge I have problems with the hand economy, specially with the passive ones and the balance between implements is not really something to write home about, exist Tome that gives great skill flexibility the intensify of it is great and you don't even have to hold it for the best part of it... then lantern exist in the other axis, basically the Rogue lvl 1 feat, could at least make the light of it only be visible to you or something like that so at least you could do some unique shenanigans.
Psychic is mainly the "unamped" form of the spells with like 3 exceptions, as they are not good without the focus point.
They're both really sick, even players who were conceptually disinterested in them are interested in them for future characters.
They both seem pretty beloved. There are some quibbles - worries about Psychic balance, and the Thaumaturge being so married to Recall Knowledge - but the flavor and feel on both is a home run.
I can only hope the eventual Inquisitor is handled with as much love as the 2e Psychic clearly was.
What is this talking about? Thaumaturge is good at recall knowledge, but not reliant on it at all, unless someone is still using the playtest version.
To me at least, the issues with Unbound step are that its best tool, Amped Warp Step, can be poached by mostly anything at level 6 and that their level 6 and 10 cantrips are a bit underwhelming IMO.
You don't play Unbound Step for Warped Step (which is nice but highly situational), you play Unbound Step for the ability to move your allies. Tesseract Tunnel is obviously the best spell you get for that, but even Distortion Lens and Ghostly Shift (with Astral Tether) give some nice moves.
If you don't care about positioning much, you shouldn't take Unbound Step.
They both seem pretty beloved. There are some quibbles - worries about Psychic balance, and the Thaumaturge being so married to Recall Knowledge - but the flavor and feel on both is a home run.
I can only hope the eventual Inquisitor is handled with as much love as the 2e Psychic clearly was.
I agree, both that the psychic and thaumaturge are well done and with your hope on the inquisitor -- though I don't know that there will be an inquisitor. Folks seem to want one, so that goes on the plus side, but on the minus side Paizo has said they don't want to do as many classes in 2nd as they did in first. Don't know if that includes the 115 or so prestige classes (some of which have been implemented as archetypes) or how many of the 43 or 44 first edition base classes we'll end up with. After all, 42 Is less than 43, but... :-)
As for Recall Knowledge, I'd actually like to see more use of things like that in adventures, and I think Paizo would too. Still, I've known quite a few players whose sole interest in encounters is "give me something I can kill!" Reminds me of something I overheard at a duplicate bridge game once. For those who don't know, duplicate bridge is a card game that requires at least some thinking. :-) So as I was cleaning up after a game several years ago, I passed two ladies having a discussion about what happened during that day -- and I overheard this: "I didn't come here to think, I came here to play bridge!" :-)
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From what I've seen, people are really into the thaumaturge, as they have a really interesting flavor, and have the potential to be a great skill monkey/bakcup fighter in the way a rogue can't. Psychic seems to have less hype around it, but people are liking it for being the general 'blaster caster' that they have always wanted, able to throw out large amounts of damage with little-to-no daily cost (what with using focus points and all)
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There's an interesting Youtube video where The Rules Lawyer takes four different Thaumaturge builds in one party though an encounter or two. Who needs more than one class anyway? :-)
I *really* like thaumaturge and is one of the few martials classes in the game I have interest in playing for more than a one shot or short campaign due to how many utility feats it has. I'm also a sucker for "free item" mechanics so that doesn't hurt at all. I just really like playing characters that can support their teammates via special features and thaum really delivers this; both through implements as well as a very powerful universal RK skill that's a level 1 class feat away from being usable anywhere.
I like the psychic as a blaster caster, but I'm really disappointed with it for anything accept that. It has a lot of cool options, I'm a huge fan of unleash psyche, the subconscious mind effects for emotional acceptance and gathered lore, etc; but I don't like how poor the class is at delivering other common psychic tropes, like mind controlling people or creating hallucinations. Like, I'd expect a subclass called "tangible dream" to be all about making illusions and "silent whisper" to have pretty good mind controlling ability, but the former has two blasts; with the only non-damaging use of an illusion being a cage (so I can't use it to trick people; although having the option to make solid terrain does have fun non-combat use for creative types). Silent whisper's message spell is really cool, and I'm glad to see daze useful, but the closest we get to controlling enemies is blast that lets the enemy choose the better option for them, and the punishment for defying the order isn't even better than just a standard focus blast, so functionally it's a downgrade. I wouldn't expect something like full on Controlled condition from a focus spell, but something on the lines of command or even confuse would have gotten that feel across. I feel that in order to play a mentalist; I'd be better off playing a wizard and poaching some of psychic's amp spells that match the theme (such as silent whisper's message spell) than I would playing an actual psychic, which sucks, because when I'm playing a character with psychic powers, I'm more drawn to subtle mental things and esp than I am blowing stuff up with my mind. Credit where it's due though, it does look incredibly fun as an offensive caster, and it's nice to see a caster actually capable of being a dps class and actually delivering on it
For Silent Whisper, I personally get my fix for subtle mind manipulation with the many thematic conditions it can naturally cause like stupefied, frightened, and stunned without spell slots. The rest of the more direct mind manipulation aspects can easily be filled with the occult spell list. Although I do see what you mean. Other than Forbidden Thought, it is lacking local options that offer that direct mind manipulation vibe.
I can’t complain having access to Shatter Mind though, and Contagious Idea seems fun and versatile (just one more level before I get to actually use it).
I don't understand what's your issue with Telekinetic Rend (besides the scaling every 2 levels). I hardly see the point of most amped offensive cantrips, but this one is awesome, and even better at higher levels when the weird progression gets smoothen.
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I don't understand what's your issue with Telekinetic Rend (besides the scaling every 2 levels). I hardly see the point of most amped offensive cantrips, but this one is awesome, and even better at higher levels when the weird progression gets smoothen.
The damage is just far too low. Even Amped. Its a fortitude save. It starts to make sense if you think you can get multiple targets with it. But even with 2 I'd prefer Electric Arc for a few levels. Versus 3-4 enemies appropriately arranged, I guess that is its niche. But tactically you are probably still better off doing focus fire on a single target for twice the damage.
I don't understand what's your issue with Telekinetic Rend (besides the scaling every 2 levels). I hardly see the point of most amped offensive cantrips, but this one is awesome, and even better at higher levels when the weird progression gets smoothen.
A vanilla focus blast on average does (2d6 × spell level)-1d6 to a moderate area. Amped TK Rend doesn't do anything close to that damage wise and lacks a status condition rider or persistent damage addition to make up for it. Two 5ft bursts is also quite a bit smaller than most focus blasts, but imo the friendly fire checking and precision is a good break even for the smaller area
The damage is just far too low. Even Amped. Its a fortitude save. It starts to make sense if you think you can get multiple targets with it. But even with 2 I'd prefer Electric Arc for a few levels. Versus 3-4 enemies appropriately arranged, I guess that is its niche. But tactically you are probably still better off doing focus fire on a single target for twice the damage.
When Amped, the damage is higher than Electric Arc past the very first levels. I agree that if you have 2 targets available EA is better because it doesn't cost a focus point, but you can hit a lot more targets with Telekinetic Rend.
And you are very far from twice the damage on single target damaging spells: Amped TR does 80-90% of Amped Telekinetic Projectile damage with your Psyche Unleashed against a same level opponent and the same damage against a level +2 opponent.In my opinion, it's TR that is the only useful Amped offensive cantrip when compared to Electric Arc. The single target ones are, as usual, quite useless. Even against a single target they are not competitive as single targets are in general of a higher level. They are only useful if you face a high Fortitude low AC enemy, so pretty niche.
I strongly encourage you to check with Citricking's tool. Save-based cantrips are just way more damaging than spell attack roll ones (especially because they don't benefit from Shadow Signet and as such drop ridiculously past level 10).
A vanilla focus blast on average does (2d6 × spell level)-1d6 to a moderate area. Amped TK Rend doesn't do anything close to that damage wise and lacks a status condition rider or persistent damage addition to make up for it. Two 5ft bursts is also quite a bit smaller than most focus blasts, but imo the friendly fire checking and precision is a good break even for the smaller area
Amped TR under Unleash Psyche does 80-90% of the damage of a Fireball without Unleash Psyche. So, sure, it doesn't compete with a Fireball cast under Unleash Psyche but the Psychic doesn't have much spell slots to do that consistently. And I've compared to a max level Fireball, which is far from a low resource attack compared to a Focus Spell.
TR is impressive. You vastly undervalue it in my opinion.
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I'm not underestimating it as all. Amped TKR does 2d6 with a height +2 of +2d6, so functionality 1d6/level
To compare to basic focus blast, Dragon's Breath is level 3 and deals 5d6 damage with Heighten +1 for +2d6.
By levels
Level 3 amped TKR does 4d6 and Dragon's Breath (DB in later mentions) does 5d6. You could argue that TKR has an easier to use AoE, and Ill buy that; Id call them solidly on par here, with TKR being slightly better since it'll be a lot easier to catch more enemies
Level 5, TKR does 6d6 and DB does 9d6. That's a huge difference, although you still might be able tonmake a claim for TKR hitting more enemies easier, but at this point TKR is only as good/maybe better in niche situations
Level 7, TKR does 8d6, DB is 13d6. It's not even a contest
Level 9, we are looking at 10d6 vs 17d6
At level 10, it's 10d6 vs 19d6
I don't think it's controversial to say TKR starts good enough, but the argument is that is falls off mid level and beyond, which is objectively true. While you can argue unleash psyche lets you get close to a fireball, unleash has a downside, it's not just free damage; plus, nothing stops me from using an unleashed spell slot blast and soar clear over a non boosted fireball. You class budget gives up spell slots specifically to make you blasting way better, so 80-90% of a fireball under best conditions isn't going to cut it
While you can argue unleash psyche lets you get close to a fireball, unleash has a downside, it's not just free damage; plus, nothing stops me from using an unleashed spell slot blast and soar clear over a non boosted fireball. You class budget gives up spell slots specifically to make you blasting way better, so 80-90% of a fireball under best conditions isn't going to cut it
I think that's the point where we disagree. Your computation is fine and I fully agree with it. Here's where I disagree:
- You have 2 Focus Points (before level 18) and 2 rounds of Unleash Psyche. So you will use Amped TR while unleashed most of the time. It's true that Unleashed bonus is not part of Amped TR per se, but you have to look at the class as a whole to judge the efficiency of this cantrip. And if you add Unleashed bonus, both spells are way closer in damage.- Stating that Unleash has a downside is like stating that Rage has a downside. Unleash is core to your class. Sure, it has its drawback, that you should try to handle the best you can. In my opinion, a properly played Psychic should always blast (especially using limited resources like Focus Points) while Unleashed.
- Using your own spell slots while Unleashed is very limited. The gain is not that high compared to your cantrips unless you use your highest level slots that you have in extremely limited quantity. And the Occult list has so much more to give than blasting that I don't expect Psychics to blast with their spell slots very often.
I don't think it's controversial to say TKR starts good enough, but the argument is that is falls off mid level and beyond, which is objectively true.
Comparison with Dragon Breath:
Level 4: 4d6 vs 7d6 (57%)Level 6: 6d6 vs 11d6 (55%)
Level 8: 8d6 vs 15d6 (53%)
Level 10: 10d6 vs 19d6 (53%)
It doesn't look like "falling off" to me. It's actually very linear (it tends obviously toward 50%, it's just because DB has one less dice than it should have that you have this progression).
TR is linear, so it doesn't fall off mid level unless you consider linear spells like Dragon Breath fall off mid level. It just has a strange progression that can be a bit misleading especially at low levels where an extra d6 makes a big difference.
I dunno shatter Mind seem pretty insane to me as a Focus spell. Scales 1d10 per level. 60 foot cone without friendly fire is also pretty great for hitting many targets. I consider this one of the best Focus spells.
I always forget about Shatter Mind as it's limited to one Conscious Mind (that I don't play). It's the best one, I agree. I actually don't consider it as a cantrip as it's a full on blast spell. The damage is way above what cantrips provide. It's clearly a gem (the Psychic has a few of them).
While you can argue unleash psyche lets you get close to a fireball, unleash has a downside, it's not just free damage; plus, nothing stops me from using an unleashed spell slot blast and soar clear over a non boosted fireball. You class budget gives up spell slots specifically to make you blasting way better, so 80-90% of a fireball under best conditions isn't going to cut itI think that's the point where we disagree. Your computation is fine and I fully agree with it. Here's where I disagree:
- You have 2 Focus Points (before level 18) and 2 rounds of Unleash Psyche. So you will use Amped TR while unleashed most of the time. It's true that Unleashed bonus is not part of Amped TR per se, but you have to look at the class as a whole to judge the efficiency of this cantrip. And if you add Unleashed bonus, both spells are way closer in damage.
- Stating that Unleash has a downside is like stating that Rage has a downside. Unleash is core to your class. Sure, it has its drawback, that you should try to handle the best you can. In my opinion, a properly played Psychic should always blast (especially using limited resources like Focus Points) while Unleashed.
- Using your own spell slots while Unleashed is very limited. The gain is not that high compared to your cantrips unless you use your highest level slots that you have in extremely limited quantity. And the Occult list has so much more to give than blasting that I don't expect Psychics to blast with their spell slots very often.I don't think it's controversial to say TKR starts good enough, but the argument is that is falls off mid level and beyond, which is objectively true.Comparison with Dragon Breath:
Level 4: 4d6 vs 7d6 (57%)
Level 6: 6d6 vs 11d6 (55%)
Level 8: 8d6 vs 15d6 (53%)
Level 10: 10d6 vs 19d6 (53%)
It doesn't look like "falling off" to me. It's actually very linear (it tends obviously toward 50%, it's just because DB has one less dice than it should have that...
I find it very curious how to choose to omit the level 3 comparison where the damage is almost identical and instead pick the turning point where the cantrip actually falls off to make your point that it's a linear relationship. It's also worth noting that I never claimed that it gets weaker as time goes on, there's a very specific point (namely level 6) where the power compared to another focus blast is effectively half, and thus "falls off". Falling off is not a term that implies nonlinearity, after all. This claim of yours is reliant on bad faith presentation of data, and does little to refute that the damage is low (in fact, it proves my point)
Factoring in unleash damage is also foolish if you don't factor in the lost damage on the backswing. While it's pretty tricky to gauge how much the stupidied flat check and DC reduction impacts damage, simply ignoring it is straight up bad math. Given that Shatter Mind hits a huge cone with friendly fire checking at 1d10/level (almost a max level fireball) before unleash, and redistribute potential is 1d6 below dragon breath in exchange very teamwork friendly conditions is another point in favor that psychic focus blasts are not supposed to assume unleash psyche.
I'm not buying universal accessibility as a balance point either, given that imaginary weapon is 2d8/level, and many of the single target amp cantrips dealing ~2d6/level plus a help rider effect. TKR fall off at level 6, plain and simple. Hell, amp message basically reads "use your martial to strike one target" which is amazing damage for a single action focus point
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I don't think we will get anywhere with this discussion, we have very different views on the Psychic that impacts the way we rate TR. So let's agree to disagree as there's nothing else we can do.
So, looking at it... the thing that amped TKR gets in exchange for being a bit weak on damage is... continually increasing size. At level 1 you have two target areas. At level 5 you have 3. At level 9 you have 4, at level 13 you have 5, and at level 17 you have 6. The per-target damage might not be great compared to other focus spells, but Dragon Breath starts as a 30 foot con/60 foot line/10 foot burst (within 30), and stays there the entire way. If you want to beat down a single target, or a cluster of targets in fireball formation, then it is perhaps not the best use of a focus spell. If you want to drop hell on foes sprinkled throughout the room, though, it has some advantages.
...and for those times where that's not the target profile... well, this is why the psychic likes picking up lots of different cantrips, yes?