Carrying Capacity of Flying Creature (Mount) ?


Rules Questions

The Concordance

When calculating Carrying Capacity, Flying mount, such as Dire bat, Griffon, Hippogriff, should be count as Bipedal or Quadruped?

Silver Crusade

Flying doesn't make them not be a quadruped so I'd still count it as such.

Scarab Sages

Personally I'd go with biped they're usually "carrying" the load with their wings whereas a quadraped has all 4 four limbs on the ground to spread out the load. That is dragon standing on the ground has four legs firmly planted and the load spread out across them whereas a dragon flying is supporting all that weight on its wings alone. Even that feels a bit too generous too me as a flying creature shouldn't be able to carry as much as a walking one but raw flying/walking/swimming makes no difference to load so I just count the limbs supporting the load.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The weight rules don't make a distinction for movement type, just whether you're biped or quadruped.


As a GM I'd agree with Senko.

There may not be a RAW distinction for flying creatures...but *realism* is a factor..

Quadruped means walks on 4 legs.
BECAUSE of this they can carry more.

When you're flying you're not walking on 4 legs anymore.... You're flying with 2 wings....

So now you're a biwing...


RAW a hippogriff can carry 198 lbs as a Light load, with no distinction between flying or running on the ground in the text. The creature has a 15 Str and is considered a Large sized quadruped meaning it's carrying capacity should be x3. 15 Str is 66 lbs Light load, multiply that by 3... you get 198. So, by RAW there is no distinction between flying or riding capacity, calculate the carrying capacity as per the type of creature and it's size.

Outside of the Rules Questions sections, feel free to make up whatever carrying capacity for flying creatures you'd like.


Note that "quadruped vs biped" is also a matter of frame, not just how many feet you divide the weight between. Horses actually have some really weak legs, but they have really long bodies so 500 pounds of weight instead handing on two shoulders like it would be a human.

Scarab Sages

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

RAW a hippogriff can carry 198 lbs as a Light load, with no distinction between flying or running on the ground in the text. The creature has a 15 Str and is considered a Large sized quadruped meaning it's carrying capacity should be x3. 15 Str is 66 lbs Light load, multiply that by 3... you get 198. So, by RAW there is no distinction between flying or riding capacity, calculate the carrying capacity as per the type of creature and it's size.

Outside of the Rules Questions sections, feel free to make up whatever carrying capacity for flying creatures you'd like.

Interesting but I'm not entirely sure how much stock we can put in that. Its in the descriptive text yes but its just one example and an example of a flying quadraped at that with no distinction of whether its flying or walking for that load. Other flying creatures including ones described as common companions don't seem to have a carry capacity listed at all Giant Owl's, Manticores, Rocs, etc. What the rules say is . . .

Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Multiply the values corresponding to the creature’s Strength score from Table 7–4 by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine ×1/4, Diminutive ×1/2, Tiny ×3/4, Small ×1, Medium ×1-1/2, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12, Colossal ×24.

So as I said I applied it by counting the limbs carrying the load, 2 limbs = biped, 3+ limbs = quadraped (no rules for 6 or 8 limbed mounts). Most creatures don't describe their carrying capacity (wonder why the hippogriff does?). Otherwise you wind up with a situation where say the Snow Roc (gargantuan, 2 legs, 28 str) has a light load of 400 lbs and a young red dragon (large, 25 str, 4 legs) has a light load of 798 lbs. The weaker and smaller dragon can carry almost twice as much even though they're both flying and not using the limbs in question.

I will allow awesomenessdog's point about frame which I hadn't thought about but still I'd like to see a written carrying capacity for a bird mount to determine if the designers are thinking 4 legs = quadraped = more carrying capacity even when flying or legs + wings = number of limbs = quadaraped for determining it. Otherwise it makes a big difference in the value of mounts as I said above the dragon's weaker but can carry a lot more (not to mention its other abilities) if you can convince one to help.


DnD3.5 Hippogriff on d20srd Str:18, HD:3d10+9, load:lgt 300, med 600, hvy 900.
DnD3.5 Carrying Capacity
STR 15 -> Lgt:66 lb. or less, Med:67-133 lb., Hvy:134-200 lb.
STR 18 -> Lgt:100 lb. or less, Med:101-200 lb., Hvy:201-300 lb.

PF1 Hippogriff on AoN Str:15, HD:3d10+6, load:lgt 198, med 399, hvy 600.
PF1 Carrying Capacity {identical}

so you can clearly see the *3 scalar for Large size was used in both cases.

It's rather unrealistic as is the game model.
In game terms a scalar would have to be added to 'natural fliers' and another for 'magical flight', then the spell Fly and Overland Flight examined as spells generally operate off caster level or spellcasting ability bonus. Encumbrance rules for fliers would have to be created which would impact Fly Checks and gaining altitude. If you go to all that trouble then you'll have to check the body mass of natural fliers and lessen it... it's a good topic for the Homebrew forum.

Silver Crusade

*Thelith wrote:
There may not be a RAW distinction for flying creatures...but *realism* is a factor..

How much of a factor? And is it a factor people in general will actually care about?


Rysky wrote:
*Thelith wrote:
There may not be a RAW distinction for flying creatures...but *realism* is a factor..
How much of a factor? And is it a factor people in general will actually care about?

Well, the rules (discounting magic) are an attempt to keep things realistic, walking speed, max running speed, jumping height/distance. Average stats give you a basic human, pretty close to "realism".

Most people are following most of the rules, with some house rules and home brew mixed in... So I would assume some realism is expected, especially since that is what the game is built around.

A horse can carry X amount because that's truly about what a horse can carry.... If you throw some wings on a horse you wouldn't expect it to be able to fly with the same weight it can walk with because it's unrealistic.

Silver Crusade

"Well, the rules (discounting magic) are an attempt to keep things realistic,"

Not really, no.

"A horse can carry X amount because that's truly about what a horse can carry.... If you throw some wings on a horse you wouldn't expect it to be able to fly with the same weight it can walk with because it's unrealistic."

I nor anyone I have ever played with have ever had this thought. Trying to apply physics to fantasy flying creatures (something something wing span) makes a lot of things fall part.

Scarab Sages

Azothath wrote:

DnD3.5 Hippogriff on d20srd Str:18, HD:3d10+9, load:lgt 300, med 600, hvy 900.

DnD3.5 Carrying Capacity
STR 15 -> Lgt:66 lb. or less, Med:67-133 lb., Hvy:134-200 lb.
STR 18 -> Lgt:100 lb. or less, Med:101-200 lb., Hvy:201-300 lb.

PF1 Hippogriff on AoN Str:15, HD:3d10+6, load:lgt 198, med 399, hvy 600.
PF1 Carrying Capacity {identical}

so you can clearly see the *3 scalar for Large size was used in both cases.

It's rather unrealistic as is the game model.
In game terms a scalar would have to be added to 'natural fliers' and another for 'magical flight', then the spell Fly and Overland Flight examined as spells generally operate off caster level or spellcasting ability bonus. Encumbrance rules for fliers would have to be created which would impact Fly Checks and gaining altitude. If you go to all that trouble then you'll have to check the body mass of natural fliers and lessen it... it's a good topic for the Homebrew forum.

Not saying it isn't there just that so far as I know that's the only flying beast to have that value included Manticores, Snow Rocs, Giant Eagles, Dragons, etc don't list carrying capacity that I can see so its hard to judge if that's a single writers opinion based on "four legs quadraped" or an actual area they've not thought about. See my above example of a smaller, weaker dragon having a bigger carrying capacity than a snow roc if you give the dragon the x3 multiplier for being a quadraped but not the snow roc as its a biped. RAW I could argue the roc's a quadraped as it doesn't have "arms" it has 4 "limbs for movement" wings and legs but well I'm sure you see the issue. Either you apply quadraped regardless of flying mechanic and get weird carry weights or you apply the quadraped rule based on means of travel e.g hippogriff flying = no multiplier, hippogriff walking multiplier.

I don't think they thought about these combined cases with the rule probably RAW vs RAI. Since looking in the player guide, DMG and Beastiary I don't see quadraped defined anywhere and as quoted above it just has a basic quadraped carry more no mention of more or less limbs (snakes) so I think it really is just an area that slipped through wtih no one thinking about it. The made the quadraped rule for land creatures and never considered flying, aquatic or other limb counts.

Rysky wrote:

"Well, the rules (discounting magic) are an attempt to keep things realistic,"

Not really, no.

"A horse can carry X amount because that's truly about what a horse can carry.... If you throw some wings on a horse you wouldn't expect it to be able to fly with the same weight it can walk with because it's unrealistic."

I nor anyone I have ever played with have ever had this thought. Trying to apply physics to fantasy flying creatures (something something wing span) makes a lot of things fall part.

I and I suspect a lot of others have had that thought actually along with other ones like if a piegeon poops on things below what happens when a pegasus does that or do pegasi fly into windows like birds do?


I don't think there is any tether to reality in any of it, honestly. Adult Dragons, for example, would require wingspans hundreds of meters wide to achieve flight without magic... lifting literally nothing more than their own weight. So, I would just go off the creature's size and whether it is bipedal or quadruped. It's just easier that way, and hopefully it ends up being able to carry more... always go for the better option rather than potentially nerfing something for no reason.

Silver Crusade

"I and I suspect a lot of others have had that thought actually along with other ones like if a piegeon poops on things below what happens when a pegasus does that or do pegasi fly into windows like birds do?"

I have as well, but these instances are completely different than varying carrying capacity due to body type and movement.


Julien Dien wrote:
When calculating Carrying Capacity, Flying mount, such as Dire bat, Griffon, Hippogriff, should be count as Bipedal or Quadruped?

RAW Carrying Capacity runs off Str & number of legs or a RAW mistake(listed value). That's it. Walking, Flying, Swimming it is all the same... I'll also not that there's NO text in the Stat Block that notes quadruped in Bestiaries or on AoN... LoL. You have to check magic item slots AnmlCmpns & Familiars(aka MIBS, a result of OrgPlay) -OR- read the description, -OR alas- look at pictures. There's no upgrade per RAW for a creature with more than four feet (literally quadruped). It is clearly an area that's been hand-waived.

You cannot generalize wings into limbs into "feet" for quadruped.

Dire Bat N Large animal {MIBS:avian(->biped)}.
Griffon N Large mag beast {MIBS:NL!, (descrip)quadruped(claws)}. Listed Str:16, CrryCap:300,600,900 Clearly 3.5. Calc'd CrryCap:228,459,690.
Hippogriff N Large mag beast {MIBS:NL!, (descrip)quadruped(claws)}. Listed Str:15, CrryCap:198,300,600.

somedays I'm just glad we have published material, including Glassteel/Hardening to prevent pegasi window mishaps


Tell me, in real life, how do bumblebees fly? I mean, they have bulbous, heavy bodies with smallish wings for their body type; how do they manage to stay aloft? They move the way they do b/c their wings are designed in such a way that they beat differently and quickly to some other winged creatures.

My point is only that realism is all well and good, but in reality we have things that for ages couldn't quite be explained. Bee flight is one of them. If realism can be mysterious, so can fantasy.

Speaking of fantasy, we're discussing the relative, practical RAW of creatures such as a horse, mixed with an eagle's wings, and how much they can carry in flight. The RAW is clear in the Carrying Capacity section; there is NO accounting for flying versus ground travel. The only factors are body type, Str score and size, period.

Meanwhile we all just take it as gospel that a fire-breathing dragon could exist, soar through the air and strafe a party of adventurers accurately with fire, or that a dire bat could generate a cloud, 60' around, from dust and pebbles on the ground, or that a creature made purely of cyclonic wind can pick up and carry victims through the sky.

Anyway, if realism needs to be injected, this will have to be personal preference. The rules are clear on how to calculate carrying capacity. Everything else is speculation.


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Tell me, in real life, how do bumblebees fly? I mean, they have bulbous, heavy bodies with smallish wings for their body type; how do they manage to stay aloft? They move the way they do b/c their wings are designed...

This side topic is about a model's precision, accuracy, and granularity. So realism is an effort to improve those. Sadly the PF1 model is far less accurate than simple Newtonian physics. The granularity is set to a 5ft cube, about 5lbs, and a quantized 6 seconds. The model also constrains rules to simple elementary math. So it is hopeless. This is why it aims for common believability.

Yes, I can tell you how bees fly. No the wings are not designed as mutations don't work that way.

I'll add that many flight maneuverability ratings for small creatures should be Perfect rather than Average. They can circle in a 5ft cube (or tighter) and that's hovering. Just general misunderstanding of the model versus a simple description and perpetuating mistakes. The Fly skill is super basic. Encumbrance does not affect flight maneuverability which is ludicrous. Equating land speed carrying capacity to flight lift capacity is moronic BUT serves simple game expediency.

I totally agree that reducing the carrying capacity of fliers and swimmers would reflect reality better, be less fantastical and somewhat inconvenient for humans in full plate riding griffons.


RAW is what it is. A game product that we enjoy.

As this is a Rules forum upthread I directed posters to the homebrew forum and created *this* post for people wanting to publicly post their improvements.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Carrying Capacity of Flying Creature (Mount) ? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.