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Slight premise: I understand Recall Knowledge is based on the DC of the task rather than the encounter, I can see creature weaknesses are much higher than half level, and I read the high level feats note on not applying to custom weaknesses. While these could benefit from a clarification, this thread will not address them as issues.
As soon as the class was announced and the first bits of info started to come out, I was hooked. The idea of creating my own magical effects, playing with the relations of concepts, and making up my own connections while being validated in-game as a player opened up the door to an infinity of concepts, and I wanted them all. That said, in my own playthrough, I went with a very stereotypical concept - fey magic. A tiny sprite who always speaks in literal truths, improvises magic with everyday natural items, grants blessings to those who share meals with her, and the like. I tried my best to squeeze out every little bit of flavour from the class, from the little firefly which represented my Lantern to the layer of soot I coated my blade in when we met a creature who fled from light. I went into this with full power to roleplay. And I was thoroughly disappointed.
While the class description rumbles and roars with the power of a thousand dragons, the effective playstyle hit the table like a rubber chicken. I have ran a few different playtest games as both gm and player, as well as poking a few of my regular groups for their own playtest experiences, and the short end of it was... all thaumaturges play essentially the same, no matter how they're built, and while they are extremely valid martial characters, they do not act like the fantasy of them appear to suggest. Of particular note, I'll quote: you [...] scavenge the best parts of every magical tradition and folk practice to glean deeper laws of the universe, like the rule of three, the laws of symbolism, and the chains of sympathetic connections. [...] carry a special implement whose symbolic function aids you in manipulating the world around you [...] deftly turn them all to your advantage [...] you work wonders.
It's a great premise. It stimulates imagination and depth. It is rich in potential and variety. It... does't show up. Instead, the section that does show up is capitalizing on the weaknesses of any creature. Near every action undertaken by Thaumaturges I witnessed or heard of focused on either Striking or setting up extra damage for a Strike. Utility of any kind, even the basic level I am used to see from Fighters or other main martials, was foregone because of the overwhelming strength of flat damage increase. One sentence sums up my experience here, and it is "Watching the Thaumaturge match the Barbarian strike-for-strike was something." Barbarian was the most common comparison, with Ranger being a close second, despite the chassis suggesting Rogue was probably the nearest intended cousin. A Thaumaturge picks an enemy, walks up to it, and whacks it for 1d6+ton. Every time. Every turn. There is nigh to no thematic exploit, freaky feature, or trickstery involved, and even the few flavour abilities only do so in order to boost your strikes in a way that is subservient to the greater good that is that massive damage boost of this pseudomagic rage.
Have I, with my weird concept and odd picks, gotten out of that cycle? No. In fact most of my attempts at crazy magics found place outside of combat, with handing out magical charms, attempting odd skill feats and taking the occasional Sprite utility. Very little of that came from the class itself. In fact, I'll note that the most in-tune ability I picked up was probably Root Magic -a skill feat- because even those thaumaturge feats which encourage esotericity and utility are incredibly narrow in application and slim in effect, and missing out on a Strike to do something interesting feels very discouraged unless it is to make said Strike more reliable or crittable.
Now, this might sound a bit like a slam, and it kinda is -I don't like holding back on playtest feedback- but at the same time I do want to add something constructive after tearing this all down. Just hold on for a bit. The core of the issue here is clearly Esoteric Antithesis, and its overwhelming dominance of class economy (power, actions, features). This does not just show in gameplay, but in theorycrafting as well, as feats tend to lean towards it for usability (see the various Share Antithesis and the like), gain additional weight due to it (Rule of Three is a very good feat, but it's Antithesis that makes it a great feat), or be devalued for it (why would I take a lv12 feat when I can take both Share Antithesis and Twin Weakness?) and are in general not as impactful as they should be in personalising your character, as the playstyle does not change based on feats or implements. Yes, implements also didn't feel too relevant (I picked them last because I just didn't feel like they made a big enough difference). While the shielding effect of Amulet was good to have, the healing from Chalice is neat, and the utility of Lantern is occasionally great, these are (intentionally I believe) relatively small features which you pick up along the way, and do not feel like dictating a direction.
Let's take a small detour here to elaborate. I said direction. There was a few weeks ago a discussion somewhere where one of the devs mentioned subclasses or class paths as something that defines your character's direction, and went on to elaborate about the Cleric, saying the proper class path for the class isn't the Doctrine but the Deity, as that determines a lot more gameplay-relevant elements than the comparatively small initial benefits of a Doctrine. I liked that post quite a bit, and I think there's definitely something there. In that perspective, I tried to define the Thaumaturge's class path by having a look at its early features:
* Implement's Empowerment makes Thaumaturge a martial class. Specifically a one-handed martial class, which frees up space for utility and item usage. It's not a choice and shouldn't be one - Thaumaturges are martial characters.
* Implements are small-scale features which get picked up along the way and eventually improve. This might seem like the intended class path, but again, it doesn't impact that much. The easiest comparison is Champion - if Paladin is a class path, then Amulet, Chalice and Weapon are its individual components, plus a little extra thrown in for usability... but we don't get that. We get one, and then improve later. If it's the path, it's very weak, and it shows as it's not enough to change our direction.
* Find Flaws / Antithesis. This defines gameplay. This is used against every enemy, supports several feats, and pushes the action economy strongly. This is the class path, and we have only one.
How do we get out of there? Well, ideally, we offer alternatives. However the power of Antithesis is so massive that alternatives risk unbalancing and dominating gameplay, turning Thaumaturge in something other than a martial character. So, before offering alternatives, we'd have to funnel some of Antithesis' power into other features. Implements are likely the option of choice here, but some of the utility feats also feel like they could use some love (I'm looking at you, non-scaling +1 to Diplomacy for telling the truth). There is also some finickiness in the way the action works which could be cleared up, so let's try something here and write the feature out in text rather than trying to express my feelings.
Esoterica [feature 1]
You have a collection of esoterica; objects with symbolic significance; bits of various materials known for supernatural affinities; and items used in folk practices. These might include cold-iron nails, scraps of scrolls and scriptures, fragments of bones purportedly from a saint, and other similar objects. You wear your esoterica in a small bag or pouch somewhere on your person that makes it easy to access. While you can eventually learn to use your esoterica for a variety of benefits, the first technique every thaumaturge learns is how to understand their esoterica's relations with the world and other creatures. When using any skill to Recall Knowledge about a creature you can perceive (either by sight or other senses), you can use your Charisma modifier instead of the usual ability modifier for the skill you're using.
You also gain your choice of Esoteric Knowledge action, chosen from the list below:Esoteric Antithesis (lv1) (1-action)
[esoterica] [ magical] [thaumaturge]
You search through your esoterica to find the right trinket that will apply a weakness to your attacks against a creature. You must have some sort of knowledge of that creature to do this, for example due to a successful Recall Knowledge or previous research.
You Interact to apply specific esoterica to yourself and your weapons; you can perform this Interact action with the hand holding your implement. Your unarmed and weapon Strikes against the creature become magical if they weren’t already, and you cause them to apply some of the creature’s weaknesses even if they don’t deal the correct type of damage. If the creature has a weakness, your strikes apply half of the creature’s highest weakness. Otherwise, you create a custom weakness with a value equal to half your Implement's Empowerment; this weakness applies only to your Strikes. For example, against a tyrant, you might attach a chain broken to free a captive. This effect lasts until you use Esoteric Antithesis again.Esoteric Interference (lv1)) (1-action)
[esoterica] [ magical] [thaumaturge]
You search through your esoterica to find the right trinket that will interrupt a creature's link to its inner strength. You must have some sort of knowledge of that creature to do this, for example due to a successful Recall Knowledge or previous research.
You Interact to apply specific esoterica to yourself and your weapons; you can perform this Interact action with the hand holding your implement. Your unarmed and weapon Strikes against the creature become magical if they weren’t already, and you sap the creature's strengths with it. When you successfully Strike the target creature, you can choose to make it Enfeebled 1 or Stupefied (Enfeebled 2 or Stupefied 2 on a critical hit) until the start of your next turn. If the creature has a particular vulnerability (such as a Babau's vulnerability to witnessing healing) you can take a single action to trigger it after a successful Strike. This effect lasts until you use Esoteric Interference again.Esoteric Leverage (lv1)) (1-action)
[esoterica] [ magical] [thaumaturge]
You search through your esoterica to find the right trinket that will aid you against a creature. You must have some sort of knowledge of that creature to do this, for example due to a successful Recall Knowledge or previous research.
You Interact to apply specific esoterica to yourself and your weapons; you can perform this Interact action with the hand holding your implement. Your unarmed and weapon Strikes against the creature become magical if they weren’t already, and you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Deception checks, Intimidation checks, Stealth checks, and any checks to Recall Knowledge about the creature, and a +1 circumstance bonus to AC against that creature’s attacks.
If you have master proficiency in Deception, Intimidation, Stealth, or the skill you use to Recall Knowledge about the creature, increase the circumstance bonus against the creature with that skill from +2 to +4. If you have master proficiency with your armour, increase the circumstance bonus to AC against the creature from +1 to +2. This effect lasts until you use Esoteric Leverage again.Esoteric Warding (lv1)) (1-action)
[esoterica] [ magical] [thaumaturge]
You search through your esoterica to find the right trinket that will protect you from a creature's attacks. You must have some sort of knowledge of that creature to do this, for example due to a successful Recall Knowledge or previous research.
You Interact to apply specific esoterica to yourself and your armour; you can perform this Interact action with the hand holding your implement. Your clothes and armour are treated as magical against the creature's attacks if they weren’t already, and you gain a +1 status bonus to Armour Class and saving throws against the creature. This bonus increases to +3 against effects that would control you, incorporeal attacks, or spells that directly affect your soul. This effect lasts until you use Esoteric Warding again.
Three things here. One, we removed the variable action feature. This is entirely a 1-action activity, whether you know something or not, but allows you to set it up beforehand, favouring exploration, planning and research (and, because it is not as powerful, it's less of a nerf when you get caught by surprise - running a turn or two without Esoteric Knowledge is painful, but possible). Two, we have variety and playstyles. Yes, my suggestions are not the most imaginative or best balanced (let's be honest, I ripped off Outwit from the ranger and you know it), but this brings me closer to what I wish we could have - a class that can whack hard but also choose not to, and fight smart. Three, because we must have a rule of three somewhere in here, we don't have a limit of single creature on our requirement. While each Esoteric Knowledge enables the feature on a single creature, the wording doesn't prevent Thaumaturge from moving onto a new creature without having to RK on it again. You face two trolls, you can RK on one and then set your EK on either of them with the next action, because the knowledge is generic for trolls. Setting the requirement to "you know something you can exploit" avoids the weird issue of having to roll knowledge again for the same results which many people are having, without removing the action balancing cost.
A more varied approach allows Thaumaturge to be a clever martial rather than a mystic barbarian. Less reliance on the weakness means more space to expand and improve the class. And separate versions of Esoteric Antithesis open the way to further features or feats that build upon it, without them having to be a forced path of uniformity.
The class advertises like a cunning exploiter which carves their own path to success, but plays like a heavy beatstick. Utility is almost assumed on a first read, but nowhere to be found - If I could Rule of Three to help the city guards get out of the opposing wizard's mind control (totally not a reference), that would be extremely in theme. If I could pick a safe using a finger cut from a famous thief, I would feel like my creativity is encouraged (design note, this sounds like a feat-based expansion to Esoteric Leverage).
There is also a trove of wealth to be explored in the concept of specific flaws, which I believe should be a running theme for the class - while Divine Disharmony has a hint of that with the +2 on certain creatures, I would rather have a baseline "low" effect and a more narrow "big" effect, such as flatfooted vs stunned (but maybe not at lv1). If several Thaumaturge feats followed such a pattern, I would definitely call it a success.
Finally, the Implements could use specific active features that affect the creature you're using Esoteric Knowledge on. Alchemic_Genius wrote something to that effect in another thread which I feel would fit here, and help fill the vacuum left by the Antithesis resizing. I especially found myself struggling to effectively combine my Amulet and Lantern as the latter had no active effects I could use to draw it freely once my turn started again. Combining implements isn't a bad concept, but I feel like they need more active presence rather than further empowerment.
Mark, your concepts are always great. This is not always a good thing, because now you set your own standards way up there.
You're a big part of why Pathfinder is the most tactically strong TTRPG I know of in today's market, which in turn is why I keep playing it, and now you told me a story about a cunning, mystic martial class.
You cornered yourself.
Now you have to give me the mechanics that go with it.
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The thread title is silly, but this is really well articulated and I like the ideas for alternatives to Antithesis very much. I hope it proves a positive influence on the direction of the class :>
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It might not be by coincidence that my wife decided to build her thaum with a barbarian MCD
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Inventor has a very on-theme ability to use Craft instead of any skill once per hour. Thaumaturge could get that as a lower-level ability using class DC - 10. That'd flexibly represent picking a lock with the finger of a thief, etc., although it might still be too high level to help the class feel like the class earlier.
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I agree with most of the main post, and have voiced many of the same concerns. I actually had a chance to playtest over the weekend, and the results were pretty similar. One thing that stood out:
I have ran a few different playtest games as both gm and player, as well as poking a few of my regular groups for their own playtest experiences, and the short end of it was... all thaumaturges play essentially the same, no matter how they're built, and while they are extremely valid martial characters, they do not act like the fantasy of them appear to suggest.
This seems to be about my experience. Although I haven't run multiple playtests, I did draft up a bunch of different statblocks and think about how that character would handle different situations, and they all seemed to be funneled the same direction. Or, at least, none of them went a direction that a Fighter with high Cha couldn't go, outside of getting some free minor talismans (which I think should be baseline or an Implement, like a Bag of Esoteric Things that can be empowered to do the bonus damage/weakness thing EA does now).
I think whatever the FF/EA mechanic turns out to be, it should take a backseat to the Implements. It should be a through line for the class, where you want to use it on a variety of situations like how an Investigator is On the Case and a bunch of things cascade out from there. But when you sit down with your Lantern Thaumaturge, it should play differently and approach things differently than an Amulet Thaumaturge. And those Implements should be empowered in different ways by the "FF/EA" ability, whatever it is, to accentuate or support that role.
This is an 8hp class. It's explicitly non-magical. It needs interesting things to do and robust, modular actions that show it convincing the universe to bend, not just tell me that it's convincing the universe. What it does should make up for never having spellcasting or skill increases every level or a powerful companion or excellent combat feats. Honestly, I think the focus point mechanic is one of the more interesting things P2e does, and ignoring that entirely is a big mistake for a class that uses implements of power which could store your focus points and get a bit of that 1e Occultist flavor, while also expanding the types of activities the class can do. Maybe it is a nonmagical person, but each implement could get one focus point with its own refocus activity to show that they are coaxing the power out of these strange artifacts.
Things like that just need to be plugged in here. There don't need to be these self-imposed design restrictions, and I'm firmly in the camp that Implements need to be the driving mechanic.
Take an as-yet unmade Crown implement. It's some kind of thing you put on your head. The Crown resonates with lingering authority, and with authority comes dominion.
- Passively, the Crown grants you a +1 status bonus on checks made to Make an Impression or Coerce and once per day if you get a critical failure to MaI or Coerce, you can turn it into a failure instead.
-Against the target of your [FF/EA], it becomes a +1 status bonus to all of your effects with the Linguistic trait and checks made to climb, swim, or balance, and Survival checks made to Sense Direction. A living target can understand you as if you spoke a language they have.
- By spending the focus point locked within the Crown, you harness the dominion over your domain implied by the item, and can gain a swim/climb speed, a +10 status bonus to speed, or darkvision for 1 minute.
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Lots of great ideas here; regardless of which final direction folks overall want to see, I can definitely use this feedback to improve the class. Thanks for the time and effort of posting a long and insightful message!
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Conditions are definitely a strong place to expand, whether it's in exactly this way or another. I will say that regardless of anything else, conditions/afflictions has been in my notebook as my leading option for the third active implement since the beginning (but I needed to test wand and chalice most vigorously as I am more confident on condition-affliction and all of you are extremely skilled at putting damaging and healing/temp HP through their paces)
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Conditions are definitely a strong place to expand, whether it's in exactly this way or another. I will say that regardless of anything else, conditions/afflictions has been in my notebook as my leading option for the third active implement since the beginning (but I needed to test wand and chalice most vigorously as I am more confident on condition-affliction and all of you are extremely skilled at putting damaging and healing/temp HP through their paces)
OMG yes! I would love an implement that inflicts conditions!
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Conditions are definitely a strong place to expand, whether it's in exactly this way or another. I will say that regardless of anything else, conditions/afflictions has been in my notebook as my leading option for the third active implement since the beginning (but I needed to test wand and chalice most vigorously as I am more confident on condition-affliction and all of you are extremely skilled at putting damaging and healing/temp HP through their paces)
Certainly, the final version will depend on where you want to shift the weight towards. I could’ve brought up active uses for the Lantern to blind targets or other examples of “and some targets are affected by your Esoteric Knowledge more than others” (I had a draft of a shield block variants that worked exclusively on non-physical damage), but it’s all somewhat secondary to the general point of “bonk too stronk pls add variety”.
Also I lost half my shorter, pointed feedback thread to computer issues so I just poured words for an hour. Glad it still worked out.
(And I wasn’t trying to bypass the filter, I got hit by it - that’s what came out)
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I was one of Ediwir's playtesters, and the one responsible for the barbarian comment, so I'd like to throw in my own ideas and feedback here.
It's increasingly obvious that having a core feature that runs on Recall Knowledge runs into a lot of issues as a character develops. Needing to keep up with four-to-six different skills, suffering penalties for having to repeatedly use the ability against the same type of enemy, and suffering penalties against rarer enemies are all problems.
I also agree with Ediwir's thesis that the class needs to do more interesting things than just hit really hard. That said, one of the limitations of his proposal is that it doesn't solve the core issue of needing to develop all the knowledge skills/the rarity issues.
So, here's my solutions.
FIND FLAWS [action]
You determine a creature’s weaknesses, whether a literal weakness or a metaphysical one. Recall Knowledge about a creature, using your Charisma modifier instead of the usual ability modifier for the skill you’re using to Recall Knowledge. You ignore all penalties to the DC based upon the rarity of the creature.
The creature must be either one you can see or one you’re specifically Investigating in advance during exploration. The result depends on your Recall Knowledge check, which has the following additional effects as well as the usual effects of Recall Knowledge:
Critical Success You learn all of the creature’s resistances, weaknesses, and immunities. If you would have learned any of them already from Recall Knowledge, you learn different information instead. You can then use Esoteric Antithesis without spending an additional action, and can use Esoteric Antithesis against the same type of creatures without needing to Find Flaws again. This benefit lasts until your next daily preparations.
Success As a critical success, but you only learn the creature's highest weakness in addition to what you would have learned from Recalling Knowledge.
Failure You couldn’t quite figure it out, so you decide to invoke a wide range of superstitions and narrow it down from there. You may use Esoteric Antithesis against your target and the same type of creatures without needing to Find Flaws again. This benefit lasts until your next daily preparations.
Removes the critical failure clause, removes the penalties for rarity, and negates the need for more knowledge checks.
ESOTERIC ANTITHESIS [action]
Requirements You can take this action only you have used Find Flaws against your target or the same type of creature since your last daily preparations.
You search through your esoterica to find the right trinket that will apply a weakness to your attacks against the creature you Found Flaws in. You Interact to apply specific esoterica to yourself and your weapons; you can perform this Interact action with the hand holding your implement. Your unarmed and weapon Strikes against the creature become magical if they weren’t already, and you cause them to apply one of the creature’s weaknesses even if they don’t deal the correct type of damage. If the creature has a resistance to physical damage that can be bypassed by a particular type of metal or alignment trait, your strikes count as having that metal or trait. If you used a knowledge skill for which you have an Antithetical Adaptation, you may also apply one of those effects. This effect lasts until you use Esoteric Antithesis again.
Updated the wording such that you can chain it on the same type of creature, updated it so you can hit pseudo-weaknesses in terms of bypassing resistances, and removed the ability to add custom weaknesses.
What is an Antithetical Adaptation? That's the last piece of the puzzle, and it comes from the actual subclasses.
Each Thaumaturge chooses an Esoteric Emphasis, which specializes them in a particular tradition knowledge skill, and also gives them a unique Antithetical Adaption that serves as their way of exploiting their foes' weaknesses.
ESOTERIC EMPHASIS
While a thaumaturge draws upon a broad range of understandings and experiences, each of them by interest or fate is inevitably drawn to a particular area of expertise. Choose one of the following Emphases.
Arcane Emphasis
Your understanding of the world is ordered, and you fundamentally recognise the truth that even the most complicated of systems follow basic rules at the smallest levels of detail. You gain the Vulnerability Antithetical Adaptation, enabling you to use your esoterica to disrupt and destroy the fundamental makeup of your targets. You can use Arcana to Recall Knowledge about any creature that you encounter. If you normally could not use Arcana to Recall Knowledge about that creature, you take a -2 circumstance penalty to the check. At 3rd level, your proficiency in Arcana increases to Expert. At 7th level, your proficiency in Arcana increases to Master, and at 15th level it increases to Legendary.
Vulnerability Antithetical Adaptation
When you use the Arcana skill to Find Flaws, you may apply this Antithetical Adaptation on your Esoteric Antithesis against those creatures. If the creature does not already have a weakness, you grant it a custom weakness equal to 2 + half your level that only you can trigger. If the creature does already have a weakness, increase its weakness against your strikes by an amount equal to 2 + half your level.
Divine Emphasis
Your understanding of the world recognises the lingering touch of the divine and the outer planes on all things from fundamental creation. You gain the Anathematic Antithetical Adaptation, enabling you to use your esoterica to cause fate itself to reject your targets. You can use Religion to Recall Knowledge about any creature that you encounter. If you normally could not use Religion to Recall Knowledge about that creature, you take a -2 circumstance penalty to the check. At 3rd level, your proficiency in Religion increases to Expert. At 7th level, your proficiency in Religion increases to Master, and at 15th level it increases to Legendary.
Anathematic Antithetical Adaptation
When you use the Religion skill to Find Flaws, you may apply this Antithetical Adaptation on your Esoteric Antithesis against those creatures. When you strike a creature, it becomes sickened 1 until your next turn. If that creature has a weakness and you trigger it with your strikes, it becomes sickened 2 instead.
Occult Emphasis
Your understanding of the world is complicated, and your recognise that there are many different ways of thinking about the same things, and that this flexibility in thinking enables you to consider myriad possibilities others can't. You gain the Mindful Antithetical Adaptation, enabling you to use your esoterica to enhance your mental and tactical faculties against your targets. You can use Occultism to Recall Knowledge about any creature that you encounter. If you normally could not use Occultism to Recall Knowledge about that creature, you take a -2 circumstance penalty to the check. At 3rd level, your proficiency in Occultism increases to Expert. At 7th level, your proficiency in Occultism increases to Master, and at 15th level it increases to Legendary.
Mindful Antithetical Adaptation
When you use the Occultism skill to Find Flaws, you may apply the this Antithetical Adaptation on your Esoteric Antithesis against those creatures. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Deception, Intimidation, Survival, and Stealth checks directed at or related to the target, and a +1 circumstance bonus to AC and saving throws against the targets attacks, spells and abilities. These bonuses increase to +3 if you're a Master in the associated skill, or +4 if you're legendary. If that creature has a weakness and you trigger it with your strikes, the circumstance bonus to AC increases to +2 until your next turn.
Primal Emphasis
Your understanding of the world recognises the fundamental animalistic instincts underlying much behaviour, and the pack instincts needed to exploit this underlying simplicity. You gain the Instinctual Antithetical Adaptation, enabling you to use your esoterica to leave your foes cornered and vulnerable. You can use Nature to Recall Knowledge about any creature that you encounter. If you normally could not use Nature to Recall Knowledge about that creature, you take a -2 circumstance penalty to the check. At 3rd level, your proficiency in Nature increases to Expert. At 7th level, your proficiency in Nature increases to Master, and at 15th level it increases to Legendary.
Instinctual Antithetical Adaptation
When you use the Nature skill to Find Flaws, you may apply the this Antithetical Adaptation on your Esoteric Antithesis against those creatures. The creature is flat-footed to all of your strikes. If it would already be flat-footed to your attacks from another source, the circumstance penalty to its AC from being flat-footed increases to -3 instead. If that creature has a weakness and you trigger it from your strikes, it becomes flat-footed with the same penalties to all your allies until your next turn.
So what does all of this do? One, it helps Thaumaturges feel specialised and smart. Two, it means they're actually better at dealing with creatures who already have weaknesses, which compounds the first clause. Three, it solves the need for having all the knowledge skills. (I recommend including a class feature at 9th that removes the penalty for the Recall knowledge skill not aligning, a la Ranger's Master Monster Hunter.) Four, it gives them stuff to do that's not just 'hit harder'. Five, it opens up the class for even more of these Antithetical Adaptations as feats.
Just to give you an idea...
Crippling Antithetical Adaptation Feat 10
Prerequisites: expert in Nature
When you use the Nature skill to Find Flaws, you may apply the following Antithetical Adaptation against those creatures. When you strike a creature, it becomes clumsy 2 for a minute or until you use Esoteric Antithesis again. If that creature has a weakness and you trigger it with your strikes, it becomes clumsy 3 instead.
While this would be an easy pickup for a Primal Emphasis Thaumaturge, any thaumaturge could invest into Nature and pick this up if they wanted to, broadening their list of options for exploiting foes.
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The nuance between you and Ediwir here is interesting GentlemanDM. Your take's option most similar to the playtest version is actually still pretty similar to the playtest version, and the rest if baselined around that, whereas Ediwir's parallel option is much weaker (scales to 4 instead of 12) in exchange for the idea of adding more other things in. When I said I could use the analysis and methodology to help later on regardless of the final direction folks were looking for overall, I was figuring I could do something similar if folks overall do want to retain a hard-hitting option with this degree of scaling but want more options.
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Obviously the numbers and exact abilities in my proposal aren't inherently perfect; I just stayed with the current playtest balance where it seemed useful. I do like the idea of keeping a hard hitting option, but it should very much be opt-in, with "smart" options as the core. The main things I wanted to get out were
1: solutions to the core mechanical issues with FF/EA (skill proficiency demands, recall knowledge penalties, action economy demands, etc)
2: solutions to the core thematic issues that arise from FF/EA (limited ways to link your Esoteric Antithesis to a specialised mechanic, few mechanics enabling one to feel like an actual specialist, being worse against the rare and weird creatures that thematically you should be best against, only feeling like a dumb beatstick and not having 'smart' debuffing options)
I do like and agree with Ediwir's proposal that we move a bit of the power budget into the implements and increase their connection to EA, though I don't have any ideas on that yet beyond the Chalice, Wand and Lanturn wanting a bit more oomph to make them appealing next to the Weapon and Amulet.
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Great addition Gent :) I suppose the nuance here is whether one believes that the feature is too prevalent or not, and where the ‘sweet spot’ is. To me, while having four very strong features is still a choice, I will have to pick one - and after that, all the variety I get is the same as playtest, which didn’t feel good.
Having active uses on Implements, together with diluted Antithesis, feels like the best way for me because it adds table variety rather than build variety. It might not need to be as extreme, and a tradition dedication could very well work out.
I just want to say two things - one specific, and one general.
General: I’m deeply impressed by Ediwir’s incredibly clear, concise and inspired analysis; Mark’s swift, insightful and considered replies, all with a generous and moderate temperament; and Gentleman DM’s equally clear, concise and inspired options and cleanups. I particularly like the triple-banger Anathematic Antithetical Adaptation. Get those tongues wagging!!!
Specific: Removing the rarity penalty strikes me as very thematic on the one hand (able to recognise instinctually or by “true pattern”/“connections”) and archetypally on the other leaning into the “monster hunter” aspect. Which for a class (currently) big on “hitting things hard” and borrowing a lil from PF1’s Inquisitor makes a lot of sense.
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I really like having “class pathways” focused on a specific skill leading to a different style. I thought about this myself but can’t remember if I ever actually wrote it in a reply. And it certainly wasn’t as nuanced or as detailed. It was more that it felt like they should have master monster Hunter as per ranger but with any of the magic tradition knowledge skills and with *something* unique added - which is what has been suggested here
I’d like to see custom weakness retained class wide though and arcane have something else.
See, my feeling is that the damage from Esoteric Antithesis being perceived as a cornerstone of the playtest class is just a result of it being a nuclear bomb.
It's like if somehow TTRPGs never had a Wizard class, then they came out with a playtest for this cool Wizard concept. It has a book full of spells that it studies, it focuses on a particular school of magic of the "Arcane" tradition, can eventually do things like teleport or fly... Oh, and they all come with an M16. Which shoot magic bullets. People would think that the magic bullet M16 was critical to the class, it represents all the magical and offensive capabilities of the Wizard concept! Mechanically, though, it's... an M16.
To me custom weaknesses seem like the perfect trait for an implement, maybe a bag that is inexplicably always filled with strange anathema. It doesn't feel to me like "monster hunter" is what the playtest Thaumaturge is trying to be overall, as a whole class, it's just the first draft of the Basic Combat Ability non-casters get.
A more general buff/debuff that primes things and empowers Implements and class feats seems like it opens up space to capture more flavor than just burning goblins with soap, and interacting with Implements could mean that two level 1 Thaumaturges with different Implements could approach problems in very different ways. Then once the second Implement comes online they really start to open up their wide toolbox of powerful objects, strange but potent esoterica, and the ability to tailor their skillset to solve a bunch of problems in ways that a Rogue or Investigator can't.
My big concern with splitting the class like that is you end up forcing someone to choose between doing good damage or doing a cool thing, which feels like a bad place to put a player in.
See, my feeling is that the damage from Esoteric Antithesis being perceived as a cornerstone of the playtest class is just a result of it being a nuclear bomb.
It's like if somehow TTRPGs never had a Wizard class, then they came out with a playtest for this cool Wizard concept. It has a book full of spells that it studies, it focuses on a particular school of magic of the "Arcane" tradition, can eventually do things like teleport or fly... Oh, and they all come with an M16. Which shoot magic bullets. People would think that the magic bullet M16 was critical to the class, it represents all the magical and offensive capabilities of the Wizard concept! Mechanically, though, it's... an M16.
To me custom weaknesses seem like the perfect trait for an implement, maybe a bag that is inexplicably always filled with strange anathema. It doesn't feel to me like "monster hunter" is what the playtest Thaumaturge is trying to be overall, as a whole class, it's just the first draft of the Basic Combat Ability non-casters get.
A more general buff/debuff that primes things and empowers Implements and class feats seems like it opens up space to capture more flavor than just burning goblins with soap, and interacting with Implements could mean that two level 1 Thaumaturges with different Implements could approach problems in very different ways. Then once the second Implement comes online they really start to open up their wide toolbox of powerful objects, strange but potent esoterica, and the ability to tailor their skillset to solve a bunch of problems in ways that a Rogue or Investigator can't.
I’m not sure it is possible to disagree any more that I do with this. It seems pretty apparent that convincing the universe of a custom weakness definitively IS the cornerstone of the class
For very simple evidence I point you to this thread :
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43h3d?I-Am-the-Universe-Convince-Me-101-Thauma turge
Take a glance at who started it
There is a word for your Wizard with an M16 example. Hyperbole.
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There is a word for your Wizard with an M16 example. Hyperbole. Indeed I’d struggle to think of a better example of hyperbole if i tried
Everything else aside, this statement is hilariously ironic.
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My big concern with splitting the class like that is you end up forcing someone to choose between doing good damage or doing a cool thing, which feels like a bad place to put a player in.I mean, the class still does decent damage thanks to Implement Empowerment, and there's a lot of status effects worth more than the extra 2-12 damage per hit.
Plus, there really *isn't* a cool thing at the moment. Just the damage.
To a certain extent this seems a balancer for the class being required to use one handed weapons
Other classes that are locked out of d10 and d12 weapons get things like precise strike, sneak attack and the like to patch their damage
So this brings them to par. Then you need to given them something to set them apart
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Wizard with an M16 was literally hyperbole, yes. It's a rhetorical device. I used it purposefully to illustrate a point.
Highschool debate aside, I've read Mark's post. I commented in it. I think it's a cool idea. The idea of Esotery is a cornerstone of the class, yes. I don't think the damage of Esoteric Antithesis is the cornerstone of the class. That is, I think the damage could be something else, and the power budgeted to the damage could be put somewhere else, while the ability itself becomes a more general buff or debuff. Indeed, we already have Empower Implement which provides even more flat damage boosts.
Many people have talked about using conditions or other effects to represent anathema. I think that's a cool idea. Custom weaknesses also seem cool, but I think they'd be more interesting as part of an implement rather than just Roll to Rage. Then there's some opportunity cost, ideally when compared with implements that have a lot of interesting and potent versatility.
I relish disagreement, but my argument was that the mechanical damage seems to warp the thematic concept of the Thaumaturge, and shifting the damage to something else might allow some breathing room (and the OP comments on this as well). I believe a Wizard with an M16 offers a similar--indeed, hyperbolic!--example.
Edit: But hey, ultimately this is getting off-topic. I'm happy to discuss in a thread like Esoteric Antithesis as a Toolbox rather than a Damage Booster
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My big concern with splitting the class like that is you end up forcing someone to choose between doing good damage or doing a cool thing, which feels like a bad place to put a player in.I mean, the class still does decent damage thanks to Implement Empowerment, and there's a lot of status effects worth more than the extra 2-12 damage per hit.
Plus, there really *isn't* a cool thing at the moment. Just the damage.
Implement empowerment is fairly small compared to most other martial mechanics, especially given the weapon restriction. It's nice, but not really a core combat mechanic like EA is.
I won't disagree that Thaumaturges could use more cool toys that make them stand out as monster hunters and non-spellcasting magic users in line with their flavor... but that's a separate topic from Esoteric Antithesis.
The Thaumaturge feels like it doesn't get enough cool stuff because the class is, frankly, just kind of lacking right now. Fix that, then maybe talk about what to do with their damage booster. Otherwise by making the feedback all about EA the rest of those issues run the risk of not getting properly addressed.
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One idea to add to TheGentlemanDM's well thought-out "Antithetical Adaptations":
What if, instead of corresponding to Tradition, it was permuted to Essence?
"Vulnerability" = Matter @ Arcana / Nature
"Mindful" = Mind @ Arcana / Occultism
"Anathematic" = Spirit @ Occultism / Religion
"Instinctual" = Life @ Nature / Religion
In that, maybe the Thaumaturge chooses a "Key Essence", gains the ability to use the associated skills with CHA substitution (in all applications?), gains bonus skill increases (& skill feats?) that may only be used for those skills?
Maybe Implements are also tied to the Essences?
Amulet @ ??
Chalice @ Life?
Lantern @ Spirit?
Wand @ ??
Weapon @ Matter?
Just some assorted thoughts. Cheers.
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Tying my antithetical adaptations to Essence is really interesting. I like that.
I don't think that the implements are going to fit well with Essences, though.
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Lots of interesting ideas here and with obviously lots of thoughtful effort that went there. Nice to see how enthusiastic we all are about this class.
However, I dislike the tying of the style/subclass of the Thaumaturge with one of the Tradition.
First, I feel it puts an unnecessary and heavy design constraint on the class, similar to the Champion's reaction being tied to their alignment. Why burden and restrict the class thusly ?
Second, it pegs the subclass to multiclassing in the Tradition, whereas the subclass' abilities have zero link to the spells granted by the Tradition. Which also creates yet another build chain to balance, as in taking into account the Arcane Thaumaturge's abilities AND the Arcane spell-list vs their Divine, Occult and Primal colleagues.
One last important thing to me is the elephant in the room, aka the last RK skill, which is Society.
I get that the Thaumaturge is the mystical Martial, and thus apparently naturally linked to the magical Traditions.
But the Thaumaturge is also the no-spell mystic. And I would love having a subclass or somesuch completely focused on the Thaumaturge as the master of connections, unfiltered by the concepts of magical power.
The person who, through Society, gets their power / abilities by being home everywhere, by knowing all the rules and customs and social beliefs and seeing the underlying universality of it all. The ties that bind together all the sapient beings of reality.
And who could, for example, leverage it into awesome, nigh mystical, use of the three social skills that are luckily also based on CHA, ie the Thaumaturge's key stat.
Pretty much agreeing with everything The Raven Black is saying re: wary of pigeonholing/constraints and also the no-spell mystic and thus wary of tying to Traditions or as TRB says “unfiltered by the concepts of magical power.”
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I also don't think traditions quite fit. I like the Thaumaturge existing in the sort of liminal space between traditions and essences, makes them seem much more "esoteric." They make their own rules.
I also loved the 1e Occultist but didn't 100% vibe with the implements being tied to schools of magic. Kinda felt too Wizard-adjacent. The way the implements are flavored now does it for me though, and I'd prefer that were iterated on instead. This way, too, you can get into some weird or sort of philosophical combinations, like a Crown not just representing social authority but also dominion over your domain, etc. that might not cleanly match up with the four traditions or essences.
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I'm not super keen on tying it to tradition either, but I wouldn't mind. I mostly just want to throw on that Crafting is also an RK skill, and a skill that does tie into the thematics of some thaum feats.
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I'm not super keen on tying it to tradition either, but I wouldn't mind. I mostly just want to throw on that Crafting is also an RK skill, and a skill that does tie into the thematics of some thaum feats.
That is a good point. Note though that any creature you can identify with Crafting (Construct), you can also identify with Arcana. Not so with Society.
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That is a good point. Note though that any creature you can identify with Crafting (Construct), you can also identify with Arcana. Not so with Society.
Oh absolutely. I also feel the society is especially important given that many creatures a thaumaturge might hunt (vampires, demons, shapeshifting fey, etc.) are likely to take human guise and walk in plain sight