If I Could Change One Thing...


Ability Scores and Races

Dark Archive

...I would grant two +1 ability increases instead of just one at every 4th level. I think this would scale better with the threats that higher level characters have to face. I also think it's more realistic since an adventurer is not simply using one ability soley for the whole period. For example, a ranger is going to be using both Dex and Wis since her key skills, stealth and survival, are dependent on one or the other. A wizard should not have to choose between better spellcasting ability and better hit points, which equals better survivability.

Liberty's Edge

hold that thought

it could be a solution for low magic games, where evil DM like hate the idea of magic shops and players conplaioning and crying they want their head band of intelligence or their bracers of dexterity...

maybe maybe...

just for therecord... when i ahve been left by the DM i have also wielded as many items as a damnable christmas trees... still i think its not a good thingto cheapen magic like that


Does this really pertain to Ability Scores and Races?

CJ

The Exchange

yes it is a nice thing to think about and would probably work well. Maybe I will try it out in the next game I run.

Dark Archive

thelesuit wrote:

Does this really pertain to Ability Scores and Races?

CJ

I would say yes. As the OP I would be expected to say that, but let me explain my reasoning. The fourm doesn't say that we are restricted to discussing just generating attributes, it say we are discussing Ability Scores. Therefore, the inferance is that anything relating to ability scores is a fair topic for discussion, and the level dependent boost to ability scores certainly seems to fit into that classification.

Edit: If this is not the right forum, I'm sure we can count on Vic to fix it.


David Fryer wrote:
If I could turn back time...

If I could find a way

I'd take back those words that hurt you
And you'd stay
If I could reach the stars
I'd give them all to you
Then you'd love me, love me
Like you used to do

LIKE YOU USED TO DO DAVID FRYER


the attacks of opportunity. Just yank them right out. I think that would lead to more then one change since you would have to alter scores of feats, abilities, spells, and items.

Dark Archive

Montalve wrote:

hold that thought

it could be a solution for low magic games, where evil DM like hate the idea of magic shops and players conplaioning and crying they want their head band of intelligence or their bracers of dexterity...

maybe maybe...

just for therecord... when i ahve been left by the DM i have also wielded as many items as a damnable christmas trees... still i think its not a good thingto cheapen magic like that

I like to run low magic games. To me handing out magic items as if they were door prizes is what cheapens magic, not allowing players to increase their character's stats without magic items. I've played in campaigns where the DM started everyone out with magic items at the beginning of the campaign My cleric ended up with a wand of ressurection and a wand of wonder at first level. To me that makes magic less impressive. To me magic should be, well magic, and not just another form of steroid.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You know, that's a really good idea. I never would have thought of that. I always thought that +1 every four levels was rather slow, but I could never think of a way to increase it while keeping some balance. I just found another house rule... ;p

Dark Archive

thefishcometh wrote:
You know, that's a really good idea. I never would have thought of that. I always thought that +1 every four levels was rather slow, but I could never think of a way to increase it while keeping some balance. I just found another house rule... ;p

Glad I could help. I hope it makes it into the final product.

Scarab Sages

thelesuit wrote:

Does this really pertain to Ability Scores and Races?

CJ

Uh, he's talking about Ability Scores. Why would you even question whether it pertains to Ability Scores?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A good option to replace much of the bonus-granting magical items. It obviously increases the power of character so balancing it out with less magic would be nice.

Liberty's Edge

David Fryer wrote:
I like to run low magic games. To me handing out magic items as if they were door prizes is what cheapens magic, not allowing players to increase their character's stats without magic items. I've played in campaigns where the DM started everyone out with magic items at the beginning of the campaign My cleric ended up with a wand of ressurection and a wand of wonder at first level. To me that makes magic less impressive. To me magic should be, well magic, and not just another form of steroid.

je i know

i have both kind of campaigns... but well our DM put a ceiling of 3000 GPs, my cleric justgot a Red Dragon Scale Mail (not true red dragons cales) from 'Defenders of the Faith' that gave him +3 AC (aside of the+4 ofthe armor)and 20 damage resistance vs fire... the first made my cleric the groups defence, the other saved me when the fireballs began raining... (the other lower level cleric was not so fortunate)

and you are right... but the problem is that both the allowance to let players boost their stats with magic items is usually acompanied with the option to get as much magic items needed for this endeavor.

Because my old players already had played with a DM who prefered FR mechanics they expected to found magic shops in my towns and were surprised when i told them they could not found any, and actaully complained

if they want to dotheir own magic items or hunt them as quest or adventures i am all over it... shopping in the mall... no way...

and the solution ofgiving 2 +1 sound fine with me because this makes them less eager to want now the gidle of strenght or the bracers of dexterity to feel less vulnerable

¬¬ i have a felow player (and old friend) with 20 in dex, but because he hasan 8 a 10 and a 11 for his rogue... (point buy) hedoesn't want to play because he fell his character is useless... (he rolled the dice and this rolls were crap, so the dm let him do it by point buy)


Montalve wrote:

hold that thought

it could be a solution for low magic games, where evil DM like hate the idea of magic shops and players conplaioning and crying they want their head band of intelligence or their bracers of dexterity...

maybe maybe...

just for therecord... when i ahve been left by the DM i have also wielded as many items as a damnable christmas trees... still i think its not a good thingto cheapen magic like that

I think this is an excellent idea and is used in 4e. I really hope this falls into the newest incarnation of the rules.

For those people who like there magic item Christmas tree characters I would say it's cool for a character to have one or two, maybe even three sort of iconic items to that character but when your wear 17 things it kinda takes away from your actual character. Just my opinion.

Dark Archive

Christopher Sniezak wrote:

For those people who like there magic item Christmas tree characters I would say it's cool for a character to have one or two, maybe even three sort of iconic items to that character but when your wear 17 things it kinda takes away from your actual character. Just my opinion.

I once played a character who was famous for donating all the money he did not need for basic expenses, such as food and lodging, to charity. I did not want a whole bunch of magic items and didn't want to lug around tons of gp either, so he became the most caritable man in the Realms.

Liberty's Edge

David Fryer wrote:
I once played a character who was famous for donating all the money he did not need for basic expenses, such as food and lodging, to charity. I did not want a whole bunch of magic items and didn't want to lug around tons of gp either, so he became the most caritable man in the Realms.

je that was cool!

lol the wizard of my party actually scolded me OOC because my cleric took the bag of money she had received as a reward and without looking or counting it she put about half on her own bagand the rest she gave to the cleric of Sandpoint to be used for the orphans... (about 25 gps, but its the only reward and indeed the only money she has) err the wizard drped his jaw because he was counting how many scrolls could be done with that :P

she is mostly like that... but she needs a soft bed, hot food and warm bath to be happy and approachable... when she doesn't has oneof this she is not in the best moods... when she has none... she is not approachable at all, *its like pulling the mad b%@~# switch, and she doesn't careifyou are the sheriff... you can't arrest her without profs... cof she is LG*

mmm now she needs to leave some money aside... she intends to build a shrine/temple/fortressfor her goddess (Iomedae)... every cruzade vs evil and darkness needs a base of operations...


David Fryer wrote:
A wizard should not have to choose between better spellcasting ability and better hit points, which equals better survivability.

Yes they should, though there really isn't a choice there. You can't always get what you want, and neither should the characters.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Personally, I like the idea of two +1's every 4th level as long as there is also some form of control over characters gaining stat-boosting items. It is a 4E thing, but 4E also very strictly controls magic items in general.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the magic item shop, but at the same time, I'm not a fan of random magic item finds either. If a character is looking for a specific item then I prefer they find a crafter, do some research on where they might find an item like that, or make it themselves. All of those are just oozing story potential. There's also nothing wrong with customizing treasure to match what the party needs every now and again. Just don't let it be a crutch to finding other ways of handing them out.

I do want to point out, though, that this particular option is very applicable for heroic or epic-style game. It's not so much of one for a gritty game. Like the experience table, I'd say this should be an optional rule a la fast advancement vs. slow advancement.

Arovyn


+1 to 2/4 levels is used in 4th edition (along with +1 to all at 11th and 21st levels), and I think that Pathfinder would benefit from it, too. But that's just me.


as for ability scores, I definitely would go with two +1 bonuses every four levels.

(non related) I would ask for an INDEX, to better locate information in the book itself

and a master magical item list (with percentages and everything ;)

Liberty's Edge

SneaksyDragon wrote:

as for ability scores, I definitely would go with two +1 bonuses every four levels.

(non related) I would ask for an INDEX, to better locate information in the book itself

and a master magical item list (with percentages and everything ;)

this is a Beta, thats andbecause of time is that they didn't add ittheypromised to add it for the Final book


I second the call for two different stat increases of +1. It works out very well in Star Wars Saga edition.

Dark Archive

Wonderful example.


I think this is also a good idea. This makes me think that the +2 to a stat that humans get should be changed to +1 to two different stats.


If I could change one thing...hmmm. I would say the magic system. As it is it relies too heavily on modifiers as opposed to the spellcaster.

Sovereign Court

Yep. I liked the idea in 4e (don't lynch me!) and I think it serves an excellent purpose here as well. Not only does it provide support for multi-stat-dependent classes, it allows single-stat classes to actually give some thought to their 4th level bump (name a wizard who didn't up int, a sorcerer charisma, etc). With an additional +1 to distribute, more customization could be achieved. I'd obviously recommend clarifying that the two +1's cannot be added to the SAME stat, else we end up with power creep that serves no true purpose.

--- Magis


The whole point that +1 to a stat was removed was because with those bonuses, you can either bury it by putting it into a even score or raise a modifier by putting it in an odd score. That is clearly either biased or unfair, depending on which way it goes.


It makes a lot of sense that characters would improve in multiple ways as they level up, and it would let martial characters improve their WIS score and will saves without having to divert any points fromt their primary stats.

Other games like SAGA and 4e allow for greater stat growth over time. Especially for games that insist on using point buy, it would make character growth a lot more significant.

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

I would have to agree with the idea. Normally I am not a fan of power-creep but the +1 for 2 stats every four levels will, as other have mentioned, give players the option to increase something other than thier main attribute and since it is only +1 every 4 levels the benefits should not "break" the game.

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