Lem

Ssyvan's page

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It appears the player's get no XP if they don't kill Jabaxa and her crew, if they learn all of the details they can from her, should they receive XP as though they defeated them in combat?

Also the same thing happens with Clara-247 (no apparent XP if they don't kill her), should the PCs also get XP as though they defeated her if they convince her to ally with them?


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I was hoping to get your personal opinion on a question about a Wizard school power. There are a bunch of powers worded roughly something like the Core's Enchantment School's Aura of Despair. (Elemental Manipulation, Aura of Banishment, Foretell, Shape Emotions, and Bedeviling Aura are the others)

PRD wrote:
Aura of Despair (Su): At 8th level, you can emit a 30-foot aura of despair for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. Enemies within this aura take a –2 penalty on ability checks, attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. This is a mind-affecting effect.

I've looked around and it seems quite clear that to activate a supernatural power is a standard action.

PRD wrote:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

My question is how long do these powers last after activation? Do they last one round and require another standard action subsequent rounds to remain active? Or do you just need to use a free action to maintain them similar to the Bard?

And bonus question. What about Paladin Auras? If a Paladin is knocked out in combat, once they regain consciousness do they need to spend a standard action to use their Auras?


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Jiggy wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Lemmy Z wrote:
What's jigging?
A type of dancing. ;-)
Heck if I know. My name has nothing to do with any verbs.
Is it that you were a big Will Smith fan in the late 90s?
Nope, has nothing to do with Will Smith either.

Banjo-Kazooie?


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James Jacobs wrote:
Trigger Loaded wrote:
Oncoming_Storm wrote:
James, what sort of food do trolls eat?

You asked that already. Less than a week ago.

Anyways, some questions for the great Theropod:

Ever met (even if just online) people that hated prepublished adventures? Not just ones they claim are badly written, I mean any published adventure? I remember seeing some people comment (Admittedly, years ago) that they figured any GM who ran prepublished adventures didn't even deserve to run a game. Admittedly, haven't heard this recently, but then I probably haven't been hanging around the areas they do.

Favourite thing to drink during a game? (I believe you've cut sugary drinks from your diet.)

Have you ever read the comic Knights of the Dinner Table?

It's fine if someone asks a question more than once. Don't let it bother you, and don't use it as an opportunity to shame other posters, please. Not classy.

I've met plenty of people that profess to hate published adventures; I usually feel that their stance and opinion are fueled by arrogance and ignorance. Anyone who doesn't think they can learn how to do something better from someone who does that thing professionally or has done that thing for years is a fool.

Favorite thing to drink during a game is either coffee, cider, or water. Depends on my mood, the time of day, and whether or not I'm being calorie conscious.

I've read Knights of the Dinner Table; started reading it when it first got published in Dragon, and stopped when it wasn't. It's not really my sense of humor today.

My group refused to play published anything up until a few years ago. I suppose at some point we must have played something and decided it was bad so everything else must be bad too, certainly I was both arrogant and ignorant.

I'm not sure what changed, but I ran a Ravenloft adventure in 2nd ed which was fun. Then we swapped to Pathfinder (about 5 years ago), about a year later I picked up Wrath of the Righteous which we're still having a blast with! In the meantime we've also had a Mummy's Mask game, only lasted a book, and an Iron Gods game start in its place, which is still going too.

Anyways, since then we've learned a lot from the adventures you guys have published and I think we certainly enjoy the game a lot more. Which brings me to my question. We've been playing Wrath of the Righteous and Iron Gods for years, and there is constantly new material that comes out. What does a group do when the scope of Adventure Paths for them is in years?

Also what's a good environment to refine adventure design, when the iteration loop is so long?


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So we've had a few sessions since I last updated. They've completed the redoubt, and rescued Arushale, killed the Woundwyrm, and are nearing their confrontation with Vang.

The redoubt took a long time to run. They scouted it and were able to discover the location of the two Drake Riders. And decided that they were going to Dimension Door right next to one.

Initially this worked well. They were able to quickly kill the Rider before anyone else could act, but soon the entire redoubt was on high alert. The surprising thing was even with Invisibility Purge up those Will o' Wisps were absolute nightmares. Zack left himself exposed during their ambush to a direct charge from the other Drake Rider, who was more than happy to take advantage of the opportunity. That knocked him down to 8 HP. That caused every Will o' Wisp to dart over his direction and start zapping him, which quickly killed him. Galvak doesn't quite see the threat yet and Breath of Lifes him, but doesn't get him enought HP to go above that 10 HP threshold, so the Will o' Wisps quickly kill him again.

Other than that Marcus decided to tangle directly with the Hag. He flew up to her, got grappled provoking an AoO, and eventually was tossed back down to the ground. I'm not sure why he didn't remount his Griffon, but that took him out of the combat as he was busy with left over grimslakes.

Eventually through attrition they had the Hag nearly dead, and I went for the heal scroll. But Eb actually managed to Sunder the thing, only hitting because he had the higher ground bonus. And honestly at this point had he not, I'm pretty sure they would've been done for. After that they quickly finish the Hag, and most of what's left decides to head its own way.

The Woundwyrm encounter was okay. As usual any all on one fight that they have some prior information for ends up being one sided. They did manage to prebuff Resist Energy acid, so the Woundwyrm's Acid Fog didn't eat through their gear. I got lucky and managed to roll only 1s on the recharge for her breath. I ended up having her fight from inside her fog. That certainly kept damage to her down to a minimum, but eventually Zack summoned something that had Gust of Wind, and they slowly ate away at her fog.

I'll update with the rest later.


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Just to be clear by upgrading, I'm usually just altering tactics or changing memorized spells. I try to keep things the same as much as possible.

I ended up running the Fallen Fane this session. And I did make some alterations.

I changed the spells the antipaladins memorized from Command and Death Knell to Magic Weapon and Litany of Weakness. While it wasn't a change I spotted that the Unhallow's Magic Circle against Good wasn't included in the stat blocks so I tossed that in to my cheat sheet. The last change was rather than have the Antipaladins use their profane weapon for a +1, I used Magic Weapon to allow them to use Keen on their glaives.

With Zanedra, I added two rounds on to her before combat tactics; casting both Shield and Barkskin on her Eidolon. I also added in the Unhallow's Magic Circle against Evil.

For the Mihstu I made sure to adjust for the tentacle's weapon finesse on the grab rolls because of the FAQ that lets you use weapon finesse in applicable situations.

That's the extent of the changes I made.

Also, Galvak was absent this session and the party decided to leave him back in Drezen (their loss).

Anyways, the group while investigating the cave decided to buff up and scout as much as they could. However the sounds of casting and fully armored characters quickly alerted the occupants of the party's arrival. Sadly, the group took about 10 rounds to enter giving everyone ample time to prepare, and by the time they entered Zanedra had already hasted all 6 Templars.

Demitrius was the first to go in as he won initiative, and in a fit of Bravado strayed right into the thick of things. If you look at the map there really isn't a lot of room in there and with 8 pawns, no matter where he went he was surrounded. The player of Demitrius hesitated for a moment, but the player of Marcus assured him it'd be okay.

So he finishes moving in, provoking 4 AoOs (since both sides were buffing and acting before this, it was really the 2nd or 3rd round when Demitrius entered so no one was FF), and taking some minor damage. At this point they weren't smiting and I'd decided Power Attack was a dead feat so I wasn't using it. I think he got two hits, each was between 10 and 15, so his ablative barrier and DR soaked up most of it. That reassured him.

At this point 5 of the 6 templars go. They've all got haste and smite. One of them gets lucky and manages to Crit Demitrius for just over 60. And a bunch of others connect all doing d10+13, and quickly knock him out, before a templar manages to coup de grace him and he dies.

I had the wonderful plan of mixing Litany of Weakness and Touch of Corruption (Fatigue) to exhaust some players, but from here on out no one gets close enough for them to connect.

Every is worried at this point, and cautiously enters. Marcus closing with Zanedra, and Eb tosses a fireball in. Zanedra manages to summon 3 babaus though, and soon Eb and Wiki are bordering unconciousness/death. And the babaus start counterspelling the fireballs, but in a total screw up on my part Zack manages to end the encounter with Black Tentacles and Eidolon Surge(Breath Weapon).

I goofed because the Unhallow has a Freedom of Movement tied to it but in the heat of the moment I forgot that. Zack also rolled a 19 on his combat manuever check so everything was grappled, and quickly dead.

I actually didn't use Zanedra as effectively as I'd hoped. She got two Hold Monsters off, both were saved against. She also managed one summon, and then she teleported away.

Had I been thinking better, I would've used her Eidolon to block the path to her, but it wasn't until a player pointed out that Svennarobeth had wings on his pawn that I remembered he could fly.

All in all I think those adjustments worked out really well. I was quite bummed that antipaladins don't have a Divine Favor esque spell, but thought the use of Magic Weapon for Keen was handy. I really wanted to exhaust a player, but never had the chance. Though I did get to use Litany of Weakness to block a charge on Zanedra. The look on Marcus' face when I reminded him it was 3 rounds to cast Lesser Restoration was classic.

I'm not sure if they'll go for the Woundwyrm next or what. But we've got a cabin trip planned and 4 days to play, so I expect next time I update we'll have wrapped up Book 3.


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Whew, a few sessions have happened since I last reported. But things have certainly swung back in favor of the player's, but I suspect that's about to change.

I'm only going to cover what's stuck out in my mind, as a lot has happened.

I wanted to take a step back as Andrew's post got me thinking a bit, I was curious how things would run if I ran them exactly as presented. So starting with the Mythic Vrock encounter I ran(ish) the tactics as stated.

As I had thought the Dance of Ruin was entirely wasteful. It did manage to damage Jesker and Sosiel (Sosiel was their captured NPC, and Jesker was just along for the ride as they'd just rescued him) and brought them near unconsciousness, but the PCs shrugged it off. It wasted three creatures turns for paltry damage, I don't advise this.

I did have a bit of tension when Marcus and Grimwing (his Griffon mount from monstrous mount) nearly were entangled into the lava, but a few mythic surges righted that and the encounter proceeded from there. The Vrock managed to escape, so I'll be able to retry a few things later.

And so it was for Delamere's Tomb, Wintersun, and the other encounters I ran. They were much less of a slog than it could have been. The players for the most part enjoyed it, but are getting a sense that things might be a bit too easy.

At least for now, I can answer that I do indeed suspect that the vase majority of difficulty arises from tactics employed.

We ended last session after Wintersun Hall. The player's used stone shape to break in undetected. They killed most of the Barbarians there before they started to realize something was wrong. I'm not sure how they're going to handle that, but we'll be picking up there.

We should be getting to the Zanedra and the Woundwyrm next session (which is Saturday) and I'm looking forward to seeing how some of the things I switched up will run.


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Hah! That's a bit of an extreme! As I mentioned, I'm running Wrath of the Rigteous, and seeing how we're in the third book my players are already very familiar with demon basics. They know about how their DR works, that they can summon in friends, they can teleport, their resistances, and that they don't need to sleep.

They've also learned quite a bit about recurring monsters and usually get pretty detailed in taking notes, not too dissimilar to Van Richten's Guides if anyone remembers those.

If a crunchy number spills out during the game I certainly don't penalize someone for meta gaming with that knowledge. Though I have pointed out that acting on certain knowledge would be meta gaming in the past, but I leave the decision of whether or not to do that up to the players. I don't mind when they act on it as each player has their own tastes.

Also I do share stat blocks with players after the fact, especially if they're curious. I rather enjoy the discussion that brings, and sometimes they'll notice things I don't so I learn from them!


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Took me a few days, but I finally caught up (sort of) on this thread. It's an interesting read, as I've had a different experience.

My groups been playing about 15ish (+/- some) years 2nd through Pathfinder with a brief stint in 4th, plus a smattering of other table tops. In that time, up until maybe 2 years ago, we never played by the rules at all. I'm not sure any of us even took the time to understand the rules. Now we've been running Wrath of the Righteous (In Book 3 now), Iron Gods (Just finished Book 2), and Mummy's Mask (Ended this campaign in Book 2), and we decided to try and stick the rules as best we can.

Coming off of 3 sets of 4d6 for stats to a 15-point buy was absolutely massive for us. Not to mention going 2 traits, plus other special traits (we really just winged it), to only the campaign trait, rolled gold vs. max, and countless other house "rules".

On top of that, our rotating group of DMs (myself included), really stuck to goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, giants, trolls, ogres, seeing a trend here?

So for us we're in the midst of gigantic rebalance, and I'll get back to you (the collective you) on whether or not we feel things are nutty or not. For the moment things are working, and working well.

Anyways, we may have thought ourselves veterans, but it seems like we're only just getting introduced to the game. Since we've been a fairly closed static group for those 15ish years, I can only wonder what other groups may be like and if any of them were/are like us.


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We're 3 sessions into Book 3 and there is still definitely a challenge. As one player put it, he feels like every encounter is risking death. I'm running everything as presented, and haven't made any efforts to buff up the encounters or make things more difficult. I feel like everything is balanced in favor of the enemies, at least for the moment. We'll see as they level up and get more tiers how things go, but running things exactly as presented is a challenge for this group of 5 players.

Wall of Text:
Just wrapped up session 3 over the weekend. We spent the beginning in the Lost Chapel, the party content to heal up and share some spirits with the NPCs. After a bit of discussion, the party debated whether or not to chase down the missing cleric of Erastil or find out more about Marcus' past.

Considering the restless Fallen, and the proximity of Sesker's Gully they opted to go there first, as that would only put them a day behind if they were to have gone straight after the cleric of Erastil.

The party settled down for their first night in the Worldwound when they were ambushed by a Dwiergeth. This encounter was extremely brutal. The were camped alongside a dried up riverbed with strong winds and rain when it attacked. Everyone except for Eb was surprised, but due to the Dwiergeth's taste for outsiders it leapt into camp, devoured Eb, and dashed off into the storm before anyone else even had a chance to draw their weapon.

The party horrified, only became more so as the storm tore down from the skies enveloping them in at tornado an instant later. Then to make matters worse, Demitrius, the ever sturdy Barbarian gets sucked into the funnel somehow disappearing faster than Eb. Leaving only Zack, Galvak, and Marcus, to trudge off and find the Dwiergeth.

From here everyone except for Demitrius gets eaten, some numerous times. And it isn't long before the thing manages to kill and eat Eb. Sensing the danger they're in the party starts to dig deep and use just about everything at their disposal. Zack tries to Dimension Door out of the Dwiergeth and actually manages to succeed. Though the game bogged down as the player chose a location that was still within the Tornado. After he failed his save, and was sucked up (and currently at 9 HP, so this was a death sentence) we took a group vote and allowed him to change his location to the max distance of Dimension Door. Which was saftely outside the tornado.

Zack gets some summons out, casts a few buffs, and Dimension Doors back to the Dweirgeth, finally managing to finish the thing. After a quick rest, they Raise Eb who is now down 1 negative level for the week.

The next day they arrive in Sesker's Gully, they speak with Arlys learning a bit about what awaits them. After some scouting and planning they manage to take out the Bodak, but not before Eb gets hit for 6 more negative levels, and Marcus gets hit for 1.

We ended here, as they know it is a Nabasu ahead Eb has already said that he's going to sit this one out.

I'm not so sure about allowing Zack to select a different location to Dimension Door to. The player of Zack and Marcus argued for it. The player of Galvak was mixed, and the player of Eb and Demitrius were in thought when we opted to change it. Had we not, Zack and Galvak would've likely died and its possible that Marcus wouldn't have found an unconscious Demitrius until morning if at all.

There were a few goofs on the party's end that led to this. Zack forgot to use In Harm's Way with his Eidolon to block the Swallow Whole attack. Demitrius forgot he could surge on his saving throw (though I'm not so sure he did as he was planning to Fleet Charge after his save which cost his swift action). Eb decided to full-attack rather than to be a bit more defensive, which means he caught three bite damages on his turn (two hits, and the act of swallowing). Also, they've prepared themselves to fight demons, not abberitions. They also stopped trying to figure out how to overcome this things' DR.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Seannoss wrote:

How do 5' steps work while flying?

It seems easy in theory but I'm guessing it would require a flight check, and then the oddities if that check fails. Or that could be easy but if you take a full round action while flying and fail the flight check to hover, then what happens?

Also from 5' step: You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

Is that an odd way of saying you need to have the movement mode to use it?

Yeah, it's a sticky wicket. Our group came across this and here's how we do it:

At the start of your turn, roll the Fly check to see if you have to move half your speed. If you make it, you can do lesser movement, hover in place, 5-foot step, and the like. However, no 5-foot-stepping up because that's its own separate flying situation that costs extra movement than usual.

@Needing to have the listed speed, it's saying you can't 5-foot step when swimming or climbing without swim or climb speed.

What about out of Grease? (I kid, I kid....) =p


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Okay, after having run the opening session of this I wanted to drop in here and get some feedback and offer some of my own for everyone else.

We didn't get too far, but I did run the Drake Rider encounter, and I cannot caution against this enough.

He's listed as doing +21 d8+11+d6, but this adds up too fast when you start taking everything into account.

Using Power Attack - +18 d8+20+d6
Using Alter Self - +19 d8+22+d6
Charging with Spirited Charge - +21 3d8+66+d6
Higher Ground - +22 3d8+66+d6

Not to mention the Rift Drake who has Pounce gets (applying Charge, Power Attack, Higher Ground, etc)

+18 2d8+19 plus Bleed
+12 d10+12 plus Trip

I don't know about everyone else, but most in my party don't have 90+ HP and their ACs run from 25-30.

The Drake Rider alone is hitting for 83 damage on average, which will knock out 3 of 5 of my PCs, causing the Rift Drake's attacks to kill them.

Anyways, to anyone running this I would say make sure to review the encounter and run it at an appropriate time. I did it while they were traveling from Drezen to the Lost Chapel, so they were caught in the open which was a huge advantage for the Drake Rider. I actually goofed on a number of things, and as is they didn't actually defeat the Drake Rider, just scared him off. Had I not goofed, two of my players would've died, one of them before *anyone* had a chance to act in initiative (thought about granting the Drake Rider a Sinful Medal of Agility for that).


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Hey Mark,

EDIT: And just to be clear, I'm asking for your opinion on how it works. =p

This seems like it should be clear, but in talking with a player I'm now not sure how to read this.

If I was doing d8+4 damage with a Lance, and I used Spirited Charge would I now do 3d8+4 or 3d8+16?

Basically is the weapon getting extra damage dice like Vital Strike, or is it working like a Crit?

EDIT: I had assumed it worked like a crit, but he thought it worked like vital strike.


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I've been running an AP now for about a year, and I think quite a bit on how to run the presented encounters. There is a lot left up to the GM here, like monster placement, or tactics for general encounters. If I had to wager a guess that'd be because the state of the inhabitants can change, so you end up writing a lot of text to describe something that easily changes.

All of that said, have you ever thought about writing some sort of game theory book that talks about those finer details? (i.e. Something that isn't a rulebook, but a guide on how to use combat in memorable ways.) We catch glimpses of that when it comes to the tactics blocks provided for creatures, but I know I'd be extremely interested in a resource that could help me refine those things.

So much that has been written has been either at the player level, and when things are targeted at the GM they're generally at a much higher scope, including things like setting, adventure hooks, etc. There is also a lot written on how combat works, but not so much (as far as I've seen) on how to apply it in different ways.


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Hey Mark,

I was wondering if you've ever had to rule on how Share Memory works? It isn't listed as a harmless spell, so would the caster be able to pick a memory from the target? Or would you run it that the target gets to pick the memory?

If its the former, would the caster have an idea of what memories they have to choose from? Or would they pick a memory that they think the target might have, and get something from that only if the target has that memory?


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
ShieldLawrence wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
So how far can you move in the scenario above?

You can move 15' because you are limited to half your speed.

I've known many GMs who will let you move half speed for portions of a move action, such as only walking for one Grease square or tumbling though one square, but this method isn't outlined in the rules as far as I know.

It was in 3.5... the transition to PFRPG lost some wording on that. It is nonsensical for a character with a speed of 60 feet to tumble past an enemy and keep doing back flips for another 25 feet distance... for no reason... unless he's trying to show off...

Like I said, Grease only halves movement speed when "walking within or through an area of Grease." Once you're out you're no longer within or through, so there shouldn't be any more penalty to movement.


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Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?

The immediate implications are if your wizard casts Grease on an enemy so that you can 5' step away. If you can't make a 5' step out of grease, then they're blocked from making a full attack on you. If you can make a 5' step out of Grease then assuming they pass the DC 10 Acrobatics check they can make a full attack.

The discussion for this question is here.

Grease wrote:

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.

The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.


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In my game Nurah locked the door they'd used to get into the citadel. She was made when she was got caught in the area of a Holy Smite. Of course she did this after they were low on resources, forcing them to press on when they extremely uncomfortable doing so.

This of course led to a rather long argument both in and out of character amongst the PCs over what to do. And spawned an email chain 100s of emails long. It certainly created a ton of tension, led to Irabeth's death, and made certain that Demon's Heresy will start with the hunt for her. (As she lived through a second encounter with the PCs at Staunton's side.)

Also I've brought it up in a few places, I've been using this rule:

PRD wrote:
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.


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Hey James,

I have a question about this development in my Wrath of the Righteous game.

Wrath of the Righteous Spoilers:

My party ended up being betrayed by Nurah after a stray Holy Smite gave her away inside the citadel. Rather than locking them into the room with the fake Sword of Valor, she locked the front door of the Citadel, block their exit.

After this they ended up facing "Iomeade" (Janeamine), and after a brief flight she fled. In actuality I had her teleport away, try her summons, and then use Vampiric Touch to restore some of her depleted health. Anyways, by the time she gets back the party already made it to the false vault. And soon thereafter Irabeth dies.

Since the party hasn't been able to rest, and they're already deep into the citadel. They decide to make for the close parapet, leaving Irabeth's body behind while they went to clear a path.

I kind of winged it here as they weren't in any shape to face off with Janeamine again. And decided to have Janeamine disguise as Irabeth.

Anyways, to the party's shock they come back to find Irabeth alive, claiming "Irabeth" brought her pack. (Implying to them that for some reason beyond her Janeamine brought her back). I don't know why but the party bought it out of character. And they didn't pass their sense motive checks to detect the bluff. And they didn't pass their perception checks to spot the disguise. And through some really terrible rolls not even Anevia knew what was up.

So I'm at a loss for what to do with this.

I'm not sure how long she can keep the ruse up. I tabled it while the party went into to finish off the Citadel. Which they did over the course of the next day.

Which meant the queen appointed her leader of Drezen.

Do you have any suggestions?

In and out of character no PC knows about this, so I could brush it under the table without them knowing. I didn't intended for it to last this long, I thought at best she'd make it back to their camp and be found out by Anevia. Letting them deal with her when they had a large number of allies around.


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Magus with Wand Mastery and UMD would work. Not sure if there are other low level ways though. I suppose you could get a wand of Heightened Sanctuary as well. But I was just looking for cheaper, lower level ways to achieve the request.


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What about Floating Disk and a Wand of Sanctuary?


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Kalindlara wrote:

I've been betraying and deceiving the PCs relentlessly. They even fell for "Iomedae" in the Drezen chapel.

Basically, I want them to doubt Arueshalae like mad, rather than just go "Well, she's pretty, so we'll trust her."

Hahahahaha

For DM Eyes Only:
You've read what happened to my group with "Iomedae" right? If not linky

EDIT: ACK! You responded on that thread and gave some great advice! Sorry it has been many months since I've ran that session and by extension read that section of that thread.


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BigDTBone wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
should be noted that the h in the crit section may be different as there are abilities that improve crit confirmation rolls (Critical Focus is a prime example)
I was actually wondering about this, too. I haven't seen any spreadsheets that take this into account. I was looking at a crit-fishing type build that would have (at the very least) a +8 to confirm critical hits after level 10.
The first spreadsheet wraithstrike linked above accounts for that possibility.

Are there any tools that express a ratio of expected damage taken and expected damage given?

That way < 1 you're doing more than them
== 1 you're doing the same as them
> 1 you're doing less than them

Although I'd expect every result to be below 1, as that's how the game is balanced. But, I'd wonder what kind of builds would hit the ratio (against the create a monster by CR chart) where you'd expect to last 6 battles (i.e. 1/6 or hopefully less) because that's about how many encounters you expect in a day. I think.

Not that I'm aware of (strictly speaking, that isn't DPR)

However, the sheet I made and host has all of the relevant monster numbers on a tabbed sheet. It isn't accessable from the web app, but you could download it and then you would just need to write a single formula cell to give you that info.

Awesome! Thanks!


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BigDTBone wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
should be noted that the h in the crit section may be different as there are abilities that improve crit confirmation rolls (Critical Focus is a prime example)
I was actually wondering about this, too. I haven't seen any spreadsheets that take this into account. I was looking at a crit-fishing type build that would have (at the very least) a +8 to confirm critical hits after level 10.
The first spreadsheet wraithstrike linked above accounts for that possibility.

Are there any tools that express a ratio of expected damage taken and expected damage given?

That way < 1 you're doing more than them
== 1 you're doing the same as them
> 1 you're doing less than them

Although I'd expect every result to be below 1, as that's how the game is balanced. But, I'd wonder what kind of builds would hit the ratio (against the create a monster by CR chart) where you'd expect to last 6 battles (i.e. 1/6 or hopefully less) because that's about how many encounters you expect in a day. I think.


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Kalindlara wrote:

Not much to add yet - however, you asked about how my experiences had been going, I believe.

Hopefully this helps.

I'll try and get some stat numbers from my group, for your comparison. If you have questions about how specific events went, feel free to ask. :)

(I'd have just PMed you back, but I wanted to dot this thread.)

Thank you so much for starting a campaign journal! They're a lot of work (at least for me, I can't imagine what it's like for NobodysHome), but I can say I find them really helpful when it comes time to prepare for a given session.


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Seannoss wrote:

I think he was a champion at the time, and still a paladin. Double damage from smite plus mythic vital strike ( I think would push it to around 2d8 + 48), plus a sudden attack... maybe there was a crit involved. Its been a long time, but it opened my eyes on what mythic characters could do.

I don't think it had mirror image up. After that I started implementing that enemies started pre buffed as mythic foes can't waste a round casting buffs.

And wait til Demetrius gets mythic power attack.

EDIT: I always forgot about cleave too. Or it never felt like a good idea with a creature with 5 attacks. I may have subbed it out.

Thinking back over the encounter, I'm not sure it would've mattered if I had remembered it. He was full-attacking every round, even the first so he couldn't use Cleave.

Also, I think its a smart feat to put on the Vrock, especially when coupled with Combat Reflexes. It prevents the party from backing up and provoking an AoO to prevent him from full-attacking each round. They could do that, but with Cleave and Combat Reflexes, he can still get up to 4 attacks (all at 2d6, rather than x2 2d6, 1d8, x2 1d6). Which makes getting away from this guy a bit scary. Not to mention he can greater teleport at will.


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captain yesterday wrote:

Well let me clarify a bit; while the top floor could be difficult, the bottom floor makes up for that:-p

And what i meant is i doubt another party will say to their army "Um, you know what what, we took care of the Chimera and the bridge, why don't you guys go poke around the Citadel. don't worry, we'll totally supervise from atop that hill over there, and if you get into trouble just scream really loud and we'll come give you a hand, maybe"

The Ranger in my party actually came up with the idea, but that's archers for you. =p


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James Jacobs wrote:
Haladir wrote:

In my semi-hombrew Pathfinder campaign "Champions of Old Korvosa," I have a PC who's an undead-bloodline sorcerer who's walking on the edge of evil and neutrality. (And role-playing it REALLY well!)

He's interested in the spell pain strike, which is listed in the Advanced Players Guide as being in the evocation school.

To me, this spell feels like it would make far more sense to be in the necromancy school, so I'm changing the spell's school for my home game. (I think that would make the player happier, as he's taken Spell Focus (necromancy) as a feat). Would you foresee any problems doing that?

Do what feels right for your game. And be willing to change it back if it feels bad.

I personally feel like it should be necomancy too, frankly. So no, I don't see any problems doing that, especially since it's not like you're gonna be giving tens of thousands of players the chance to play in your game and find ways to abuse it. ;P

AKA: Making changes like this to a game is kinda one of the points of being a GM, and you SHOULD do things like this. It's what helps you become a better GM.

Sort of a similar question, and sorry if it has been covered before. But, why is Cure Light Wounds a conjuration spell? I'm not sure if that is something you guys thought about at all since it seems WotC made that change. But, if you did happen to, what was your reasoning?


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Ssyvan wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:

Yeah - I've been advancing my mobs (usually on the fly) ever since we started PF a year ago. The whole "action economy" thing and 5:1 players vs BBEG dynamic making that pretty clear.

I try to balance it so that I don't kill my players. Unless they get stupid or really careless.

And I get that his MS is only really OP at these lower levels. There are other classes that can do as much, though not quite as fast perhaps.

It was largely the "surprise! I'm going to throw this curve at you!" that prompted me to seek advice. A standard Summoner wouldn't have been such an issue - any class with an animal companion would be the same problem. It was the 10x duration, multiple active summonings that could grow quite large at lvl 1 that threw me.

And then he added the Augmented Summoning thing, plus the Summon Good Monster feat. Altogether, looking at the AP, I was like: "Damn! How do I deal with all of that from 1 guy? Obviously I need to tweak the encounters, but just how without it becoming 'I am doing this because of YOU!'?"

One other thing to consider that is specific to the eagle case. It is better for the Goblins to attack and move back 10 feet (which provokes an AoO), than it is for them to stay put. Keep your goblins mobile and force the eagle to use a move action. That way, at worst it is only getting two attacks rather than three.

EDIT: And I should say, that the goblins can use acrobatics to do this movement to attempt to avoid the AoO. I think they'd need a 9 on a d20, if they pass they don't provoke. If they fail, well then the eagle still has to attack.

Crap, just realized too late for editing. They'll need an 11 if he's using Augment Summons. Still that's .75 hits per round on average, rather than 1.5 hits.

EDIT: This stretches things perhaps a bit too far, but you could also switch their Skilled racial trait with Tree Runner from the Advanced Race Guide, which would boost their acrobatics to +6. I wouldn't recommend doing that though.


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Sissyl wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned, if you do decide the summons must be summoned on the ground you could also say that they can't use their talon attack on while walking (considering this is the advice forum).

Also, since they're going to attack to the best of their ability, and if they summoned on the ground next to a goblin. They'd likely take flight (remember you control them), which would provoke an attack of opportunity. I'd tell your player that before springing that on them. At the very least that'll get you a round where the eagle can't full attack.

I'm fairly certain if they fail their hover check they have to continue movement, which means they'll likely be provoking AoOs and only getting 1 attack.

Lastly don't forget about Fighting Defensively and Total Defense, the former granting them an AC 18, and the latter granting an AC 20. That's going to make it rather difficult for the Eagle to hit.

Saying an eagle can't use its talons when on the ground would be a pretty sharp departure from the rules, IMHO. It would raise a ton of odd questions: How can an octopus swim at all if it uses all its tentacles for attacking? How many does it need to move? Etc...

Right, it's certainly not a rule and if you were to go with that it should be done with advance notice. It's just an option to consider.

I have a normal summoner in my game, and so far he certainly hasn't tipped the scales of balance one way or the other. And I've been rather relaxed about summon control, summoned location, and beyond. That said, our combats do tend to last a very very long time due to his summon monster ability. I've worked him to speed that up, but he usually has his eidolon out so it isn't much of an issue.


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One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned, if you do decide the summons must be summoned on the ground you could also say that they can't use their talon attack on while walking (considering this is the advice forum).

Also, since they're going to attack to the best of their ability, and if they summoned on the ground next to a goblin. They'd likely take flight (remember you control them), which would provoke an attack of opportunity. I'd tell your player that before springing that on them. At the very least that'll get you a round where the eagle can't full attack.

I'm fairly certain if they fail their hover check they have to continue movement, which means they'll likely be provoking AoOs and only getting 1 attack.

Lastly don't forget about Fighting Defensively and Total Defense, the former granting them an AC 18, and the latter granting an AC 20. That's going to make it rather difficult for the Eagle to hit.


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wraithstrike wrote:
KutuluKultist wrote:

Of course DPR calculations provide useful information, but it leaves certain things out. These include the aspects that I have tried to point this board's attention towards.

Several times people have defended from anecdotal and subjective experience that accuracy is most important. I have shown that there is a mathematical basis to that experience and that, to the degree I have explicated ("all things being equal...") that feeling is justified by the actual probabilities in play.

I have been criticised for using extreme cases. I have justified this by pointing out that the extreme cases are good cases to study because the show clearly what is a general effect also in play in less extreme cases. I have not seen any reply that actually has taken this into account, so I will repeat myself: The effect shown is as real in less extreme cases, even if it is less extreme.

That is faulty logic. We don't care about some thing that may never happen. That is like me taking skill focus craft(water balloons) because they might show up one day.

The problem is that you are confusing "general use" with "always useful/accurate", and nobody is making that claim.

I think what he means is that DPR formulas overvalue damage and under value accuracy. By showing the extreme that fact becomes more apparent than it otherwise would be. So he isn't saying it never happens, but that it always happens to a lesser, but still extremely valid, degree.


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Claxon wrote:

Here is a google doc with actual stats derived from the bestiary and not just recommended guidelines. I'm not sure what bestiary it includes, but the bestiary tabs does list all creatures it includes.

I use it often as a tool.

The table linked by BigDTBone is a suggestion/guideline for creating new creatures.

This is amazing.


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Hahahahahahahaha


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Tels wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:

Okay, so I read more into this and it looks like there is nothing stopping Jeslyn from animating an addition 14 HD of undead (using up the onyx she already has).

Since I'll be running this this weekend, I'll stick with the setup as is and only add in new undead should there be an escalation. In addition it seems the spell requires a mostly intact corpse, something that I'm not sure is immediately present in the garrison, but would be after an assault.

One last thing, Jeslyn is immune to sickeness but acts as sickened for the encounter? Is that right, or is she immune to that?

So I finally got a chance to finish up this book and I'm going to put the rest of this post behind spoilers just in case.

** spoiler omitted **...

SON OF A B~!$&! GOD! I hate cliffhangers! Why you so cruel?

Sorry Tels, joy is in the journey and all that. =)

but if you need:
It was a 10, the wardstone was drained and they were in complete shock that there was an explosion killing Jeslyn, the undead minotaur, and a resurrection for the Barbarian.


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Ssyvan wrote:

Okay, so I read more into this and it looks like there is nothing stopping Jeslyn from animating an addition 14 HD of undead (using up the onyx she already has).

Since I'll be running this this weekend, I'll stick with the setup as is and only add in new undead should there be an escalation. In addition it seems the spell requires a mostly intact corpse, something that I'm not sure is immediately present in the garrison, but would be after an assault.

One last thing, Jeslyn is immune to sickeness but acts as sickened for the encounter? Is that right, or is she immune to that?

So I finally got a chance to finish up this book and I'm going to put the rest of this post behind spoilers just in case.

GM Eyes Only:
I've got a party of 4 players (Barbarian, Cleric, Rogue, and Summoner) all at 15 point buy, and only a single campaign trait.

They took out the Garrison in two assaults, on the first they went through the shutter and ended up having one huge pitched battle with nearly everything on the second floor. 3 Giant Flies, 6 Tieflings, 4 Cultists, Othribuo, and 3 Dretches. I left the Peryton, Schir, and Zombies alone. This battle went really well, and things arrived in waves rather than all at once. Things only got chancy when the cultists managed to command the rogue to approach, which meant my players had to finish this encounter rather than retreat and come back another day (As they weren't going to leave one of their own behind!). They managed to get their friend back, but left Othriburo and two cultists behind alive.

The next day they came back and went through the front door. Othriburo managed to hold them off for quite some time, but eventually they were able to corner and capture him! They had their Mongrelmen cohorts escort him back to Defender's Heart after an augury revealed that their mission would likely go well.

Afterwards they poured over what they found on the main floor (making quite a bit of noise) which gave the Schir and Peryton time to setup an ambush. These two working together as a team was an extremely difficult encounter for them, as the shock of it caused them to split their damage up across both opponents. That coupled with high AC (the Schir can cast protection from good) made this a bit too drawn out. Mid-fight they barricaded themselves into a room only to have the Schir Arcane Lock the door, then ran around and attacked them from their soft side.

From here they cleaned up the remaining cultists and zombies, then moved on to fight the Half-Fiend. They didn't use the scrying bowl, so instead sent the rogue up to scout. However the sound of battle in the room below gave the Half-Fiend time to set up an ambush. In a split second he landed on the Rogue taking him down to 7 HP, which caused the summoner to send up a small air elemental as a distraction giving the rogue time to get out of dodge.

From here they debated whether or not to head back and rest or try to complete their mission, as they knew they were close. They chose the latter and decided to run up all together. The Rogue and Barbarian attacked him on his front dealing some moderate damage, while the Summoner ran for the back door only to find it locked (then decided to provide flank). The Cleric healed for all he was worth, but still the Barbarian ended up dead. After the fight the rogue was still at 7 HP, the Summoner completely out of summons, spells and Eidolon, and the Cleric only had a few paltry charges on his wands.

At this point the party's morale was completely shot as they faced off against the sickened Jeslyn. In her opening gambit she cursed the Summoner (-6 Cha), then Soul Siphoned the Cleric (-1 Level), and finally charged passed them to the minotaur and raised it as a Flaming Skeletal Half-Fiend Minotaur (their faces at this point were classic).

As the table fell silent for a few long moments the Cleric finally declared, that if they're going down, they're going down fighting.

The Rogue charged headlong at Jeslyn and the Flaming Skeletal Half-Fiend Minotaur knowing that at best he was buying seconds. The Cleric dropped to his knees and started ripping apart his backpack trying to find the rod of cancelation. Jeslyn realizing what was happening shot a Hold Person at the Cleric, only to her horror see him shake it off. The Summoner jumped between the Cleric and the Flaming Skeletal Minotaur to buy a single moment. With his arm outstretched the Cleric reaccchhhhed for the Wardstone. Only the crickets outside are making noise as the room falls dead silent, the die falls on the table and stops on a 2.

GM - "What's your plus to hit?"
Cleric - "3!"
Cheers Erupt
GM - "It's not over yet, the wardstone might still resist"
Silence as the GM motions that this roll will be public
The die falls and stutters across the table knocking a few minis and finally comes to stop on a...

Not sure if any of the Devs frequent here, but I have to thank you for the best gaming moments our group has had in a long long time. =)


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They've been keeping the NPCs back in safety.

Just in case:
The one time they didn't they had brought Anevia up , and she was crit for 26 damage by the Mongrel Ranger. Which was enough to kill her outright. We kabitzed that back when a player pointed out that it was dark, and they had intentionally quaffed darkvision potions to sneak ahead. Since Anevia can't see in the dark, and they had no more potions I allowed a rollback.

Otherwise, everyone has been knocked out at some point, save for the Gnome Summoner...


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In case anyone was curious, I totaled these up and came up with the following:

In order from most to least common player race:

Human(85), Aasimar(58), Tiefling(34), Elf(24), Half-Orc(16), Half-Elf(13), Dwarf(12), Gnome(5), Dhampir(4), Halfling(4), Android(3), Tengu(3), Catfolk(2), Oread(2), Sylph(2), Pony(1), Kobold(1), Grippli(1), Vanara(1), Goblin(1), Ratfolk(1), Ifrit(1), Samsaran(1)

In order from most to least common class (if they were multiclassed, each class counted once):

Paladin(62), Cleric(36), Wizard(27), Inquisitor(17), Oracle(17), Ranger(17), Rogue(17), Fighter(15), Magus(14), Barbarian(13), Sorcerer(13), Monk(10), Summoner(9), Bard(8), Druid(5), Gunslinger(5), Cavalier(4), Alchemist(3), Samurai(3), Witch(2), Ninja(2), Warpriest(1).

In order from most to least common mythic path (dual paths counted once each):

Heriophant(44), Champion(35), Archmage(31), Guardian(25), Trickster(17), Marshal(15)

Anyways, I left off some posts if there wasn't enough information, or if I wasn't sure how I'd total it. Also, I didn't include nagash42's party since I started this post before he posted.


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Lost my edit ability on the last post so I had to start a new one. Anyways, thanks Sniggevert and fretgod99 for pointing out that benefit is language used in feat entries. I'm sorry I was so thickheaded up until you guys pointed that out, and I want to say thanks for sticking it out with me until this point.

=)


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Sniggevert wrote:

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

What happens if a larger creature tries to flank. Still no language changing base conditions required.

This explicitly demonstrates that flanking and flanking bonus are separate things. So when you say:

Sniggevert wrote:
The "question" is to whether the second paragraph overrides the condition provided in the first paragraph of the section. There's nothing to imply it should, but nothing to flat out state you can't flank at range.

There is something that more than implies the second paragraph is a rule for flanking. EDIT: And the first sentence is a rule for flanking bonus.

What muddies the waters is the Gang Up FAQ. And as Remy already pointed out the FAQ clarifies that so long as two of your allies threaten an opponent you count as flanking towards them. It says that in the first sentence. You count as flanking.

Where everyone is getting caught up is the use of the word benefit in the second sentence.

FAQ wrote:
The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat.

There are two ways to read that use of benefit. The first is reading it as them saying that ranged attacks never benefit from flanking(specifically) so this feat doesn't change that. The second is a much more broad reading reads that ranged attacks can't benefit from this feat, and Sneak Attacks are a benefit so they don't work with this either.

Everyone cherry picks that FAQ ruling to read how they want it to read, but it should be clear that because the subject of the feat and FAQ is flanking. Because of that I read it to say because ranged attacks don't normally benefit from flanking, ranged attacks won't benefit from flanking with this feat.

Sneak Attacks aren't "normal".