Hey Everyone!
Not sure what the interest would be in me starting one of these for the boards to peruse, but I'll post the party setup and see what kind of interest this gets and depending on that I'll continue to up date this.
As I've mentioned in another thread on this board we're a 6 person group (5 players and 1 GM [me]). All of my players (save for one) have a decade+ of experience with tabletops, but in the past have emphasized RP over combat. With this AP that has all changed, and for once we've decided to play things by the book.
Our group meets up twice a month (trying for the 1st/3rd Saturdays) for 6 hours.
Rules:
-15 point buy
-Average Starting Gold
-1 Campaign Trait
-Slow XP Track
-No House Rules (We have/had a lot)
Player Characters:
Demitrius Thac(Stolen Fury) - CG Half-Elf Barbarian
Plays a hot headed half elf that believes the best defense is the best offense. He's over protective of his friends, which has already landed him in hot water a few times.
Eb Oriax(Touched By Divinity) - NG Tiefling Rogue
Hired himself out as a scout before the attack, but has always wanted to aspire to having a larger impact on the crusades. And it seems that fate agrees, as there is no better time than now to do just that.
Galvak Mortak(Exposed to Awfulness) - NG Dwarven Cleric of Torag
Superstitious dwarf that sees value in everything. Refuses to get near "borrowed" things until they've been deemed righteous by his peers.
Marcus Blackbarn(Child of the Crusade) - CG Human Ranger
Paranoid fanatic that was kicked out of the Eagle Watch for acting too rash. Realizing he's strayed, he's hoping to find himself again.
Zack(Riftwarden Orphan) - CG Gnome Summoner
Traveled to Kenabres just before the attack to study conjuration magic with his peers. So far he's hit it off with Aravashinal.
Wanted to bump this thread again with some updates.
Marcus Blackbarn is no longer playing, and because of that we're now using the medium XP track sort of. For the most party we're leveling as the AP expects, this'll continue until the group misses something.
We're still playing 1st and 3rd Saturdays, though at the end of each book in the AP I swap games with the player of Zack. He's running a Mummy's Mask game that we're all having a ton of fun with!
We're not a terribly optimized group and have found this AP sufficiently tough. I'm running all encounters only using things that are written, but I may gloss over suggested tactics changing situations to handle or mesh with my group a bit better.
EDIT:
Demitrius Thac(Stolen Fury) - CG Half-Elf Barbarian(Invulnerable Rage) 6 Champion 1
Eb Oriax(Touched By Divinity) - NG Tiefling Rogue 6 Trickster 1
Galvak Mortak(Exposed to Awfulness) - NG Dwarven Cleric of Torag 6 Guardian 1
Zack(Riftwarden Orphan) - CG Gnome Summoner 6 Archmage/Guardian 1
While I'm not a terribly good writer, I do plan on posting my combat notes here so that others might be able to use some of things I'm attempting in my game.
My group is halfway done with the Desecrated Chapel after last session.
I changed the gargoyle encounter using their stealth to catch the group off-guard, who then proceeded to charge and grapple (against FF CMD) the party attempting to push them over the cliff. While the cliff isn't a huge threat at 90' (9d6 to my 50+ HP party), it certainly grabbed the attention of my party. Also, they weren't expert climbers and had already blown three uses of the levitate scale scaling up to the chapel. If any of them other than Eb had fallen, they might have been out of luck for the day. Demitirius realizing the threat and being the first to act blew his Horn of Battle Clarity, which actually came back to bite them.
Because Demitrius blew his Horn of Battle Clarity, I allowed the denizens of the chapel perception checks which a number of them were able to pass. Because of this I adjusted enemy placement to their benefit and made ample use of the cleric's prepared Detect Thoughts. They gleaned that Demitrius couldn't see in the dark, which door they were approaching through, and who was coming in first. With that the Babaus set up, and readied a darkness that was used to great effect. My group wasted a few rounds attempting to channel energy on the ghouls, only to have the clerics undo that moments later. They also failed a number of perception checks which allowed the Babaus to stay hidden longer that I had hoped. In the end the ghoul fodder lasted long enough for the Babus to flank Eb and Galvak. We ended right after this encounter with Eb at -3, and Galvak at 1. Also, one of the clerics seized the moment and fled deeper in to the chapel.
I plan on giving a certain wand to that cleric and having him use it, freeing up Nulkineth's actions (hopefully combined unholy blight). I can't imagine this encounter being tough for my group, but they are starting to be wary about spending mythic points, I think they all have 3 or less.
As for the last encounter? I'm rather worried about that one. I don't see how my group will overcome that, but they've proven to be plenty resourceful before!
Some more updates:
Marcus Blackbarn is playing again, and we're still playing in the same time slots. I'm making very minor adjustments to the encounters detailed below to account for this.
Vescavors: The party botched their entrance by falling into the vescavor cave. This caused the swarms to start to gather allowing the others who hadn't fallen time to get in.
My group made a tactical error, by casting mythic haste to run through the cavern searching for the queen. This flurry of activity stirred up another two swarms, but by the time they settled down and faced the queen it was just two swarms and her.
She tried to fly back to the abyssal rift room, but before she got there Demitrius charged and hit her pretty hard. Instead of falling back she decided to fly up to the ceiling and bombard the players with acid, leaving the two remaining swarms to eat into them.
They eventually managed to kill her through attrition (I think it was about 10 rounds in total), which left the party with a bunch of their gear destroyed and broken. The summoner and his eidolon ended up with madness. So this mini-dungeon is still having massive repercussions to this day. The summoner took on Multiple Personality Disorder, we rolled and he thinks he's a half-orc bar room brawler from the high plains. I allowed him to essentially keep his stats and have a fully leveled brawler on the days he's confused which actually is turning out to be a lot of fun!
Taking Drezen:
-Army Encounters: Their army absolutely trounced every mass combat encounter. They also really loved this section, it went fast and felt really good. I think I may add this into future homebrew games.
-Haunted Vault: This went south really fast. Everyone ended up paralyzed, and he even got a Coup De Grace against Galvak. Galvak saved so he didn't die, but the players were certainly calling a TPK.
-Ahari Bridge: I think it took us about 3 hours to get through this, but they absolutely destroyed this encounter. I was rather impressed with how they tackled it.
I had modified the encounter by adding two extra tieflings and a Man-Eating Auroch to the top of the bridge. I had planned on having Barrid cast rage and bull's strength on the auroch and using it to bull rush players around.
It didn't play out like that at all.
Their scouting noticed the aurochs chained to the bridge below. And that the troupe seemed to be lead by Barrid. Marcus setup in some of the ruins a few hundred feat away and readied his Holy arrows (he had 3 left). Galvak went as far as he could down river and readied Control Water to cast when Marcus sprung the ambush.
Everything worked out well. Marcus managed to hit Barrid in the surprise round, and the top of initiative bringing him down to 4 hp by the time it was his turn. Galvak managed the perception to cast Control Water, completely negating two aurochs from the encounter. The rest of the party charged in after the two remaining chained aurochs.
The rest took a lot of time, but they were barely touched and at the end the bridge stood. The only downside was Barrid escaped on his turn.
Brimoraks: I don't have much to say here. It went really fast, and the Brimoraks put up no challenge.
Army morale: They still haven't uncovered the traitor, and the damage to morale has been completely bonkers. I've rolled a 4 every time.
Fenton Blackfoot: They attempted to track him down (Marcus was part of the prisoners on Paradise Hill and learned of Fenton's recent adventures while there), but the traitor had a hand in this. Since Fenton had already left Drezen with the Lymerian Discourse they sent a smaller group of PCs out to track him. The rest of the party stayed in Drezen mopping up mass encounters.
The group that left was Marcus, Anevia, Demitrius, and Zack. At the end of Book 1, an animated Dreadnu terrorized the party and I intended to use him again for morale purposes (considering the random encounter chart turned up a Half-Fiend Minotuar (he's a bit easier than that and the party was split in half)). I had his stats handy, so he ambushed the party. This went bad fast as he managed to kill Marcus. But Demitrius and Zack were able to kill him soon after. That marked the second player Dreadnu has killed in this game.
Citadel Drezen: We just started this last Saturday and haven't made it too far.
-Brimoraks: They opted to go in the front door and we're surprised by 4 Brimoraks (two were summoned in the time it took them to open the locked front door). They caught 4 fireballs that hit everyone, and nearly killed the NPCs that accompanied them. Othriburo (who they're attempting to redeem. Irabeth, and Nurah.
They really struggled at first here, but the Brimoraks hit hard up front then taper off after. Galvak dropped to the -20s but thanks to mythic didn't die. Other than that the NPCs went unconcious here and there. Irabeth would've died, but Galvak had put up Shield Other on her.
During the second half of this encounter, I used the lone teleport the Brimoraks had to put some minor pressure on Marcus (as he's an archer that hangs back alone) as a warning flag for later. They'd already spent their fireballs and didn't have much in the way of really threatening him, so I hope it was a good heads up for him.
-Gargoyles: They keep sending in Eb to scout. The first room there was a miscommunication and everyone ended up inside before the scouting was done. This time they made sure to send Eb in alone. Sadly, there wasn't enough cover in here and the player didn't realize the statues were gargoyles until too late. All four charged him (dealing very minor damage). The players reacted well to this and quickly got into the room and managed to put them all down. The only hiccups were a few players weren't using magic weapons so the DR really helped the gargoyles. Other than that, the room was too large for them to really get off their 4 attacks. Also, Eb is immune to flank so that hurt they're attack during the surprise and subsequent round.
-Sally Port: We ended here after the surprise round. It had been a few days since the Ahari Bridge and Barrid had retreated to here. He gave the rangers here specific orders to wait for the archer and take him out first (as revenge). Anyways, Eb went in and failed his Will saving throw falling down the trap. Considering this was the second trap in the whole game and he's fallen prey to both, the player wasn't too terribly happy. He made his fort save, so was happy about that. Anyways, after retreating back to the group and reporting about the trap, Marcus decided to take a look for himself. He caught a fireball and a standard attack from 3 archers. They'd had resist energy up since the Brimoraks so the fire didn't hurt too much. Either way, they're in a pickle now, and I'm not sure what they're going to do.
Ending here was good because it gives them time to consider what to do.
My Thoughts: Holy crap, 3 ambush encounters back to back? Not fair. The Brimoraks with the improved cover from the doors have a 36 stealth if they take 10. The gargoyles have a 32-37. And the archers? They have at least a 40. How is any party ever supposed to spot these? Especially if they're taking the tactic of sending in a single scout? Eb has a +17 perception, so at best he's hitting 37 which makes the first two encounters possible (but unlikely) and the last entirely impossible.
The doors. Wow, they're eating up huge amounts of time getting through these. They've opted to have Eb unlock them, but if he takes 10 that's 10 minutes on average. This is killing their buffs. Not sure if this is good or bad yet. He's got a +19 DD so they need a 16 to get through.
Barrid. This guy creates so many options. Air elemental for wind wall anyone? Or summon a Hound Archon on the party (lets see them beat that Good dr)? I'm really glad he lived, it makes the Sally Port encounter so much more dynamic.
Lack of Town. This has been a big deal so far. Not only do they not have spell reagents for Restoration (see madness above), they haven't been able to get any gear upgrades. What they find is what they get.
I will say that your group was the only one in these journals that went in through the front door... usually the best defended part of a castle.
My group entered via Soltengrebbe's tower and never encountered any of the troops at the front gate.
They'd discussed this for a bit. But, they had gone through "the back door" at the grey garrison, and that didn't turn out well for them at all. So prior experience informed this decision. Lastly they lack the magic to get up there. They have the levitate scales, but no means to get back down should things go bad.
Ha! You are correct about the grey garrison. I had forgotten all about that one. That encounter is much more challenging than the other choice.
Ha! You are correct about the grey garrison. I had forgotten all about that one. That encounter is much more challenging than the other choice.
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah, they're having a long email chain right now about solving that issue. The summoner has Summon Monster 4, Control Summons, and Black Tentacles as their 3rd level spells. But before they went in the front door he had considered using Evolution Surge to fly the group up to one of the parapets. However, Galvak wasn't too keen on that, as he and gravity don't get along.
Hey Ssyvan I was able to find 2 of my PCs at somewhere in book 4 power levels. I had already started to slow down mythic tiers(which I would suggest doing) so they were one behind. I'll try to use spoiler tags to cut down on text walls. Their stats and saves will include magic items.
St 14 Dx 12 Cn 18 In 11 Ws 27 Ch 12
Fort 13 Ref 7 Will 20 AC 29 HP 168
Feats: Hvy Armor, Toughness, Weapon Focus(M), Iron Will, Power Attack(M), Weapon Spec, Gr Weapon Focus, Mythic Spell Lore(M), Quicken Spell
Mythic Abilities(tier 5 heirophant): Inspired Spell, Mythic Spell Caster, Eldritch Breach, Divine Source, Enduring Blessing, Extra Mythic Power
St 10 Dx 14 Cn 17 In 28 Ws 16 Ch 10
Fort 11 Ref 12 Will 15 AC 24 HP 125
Feats: Extra traits, Skill Focus:Perception, Spell Focus:Trans, Scribe Scroll, Mage's Tattoo(trans), Craft Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Mythic Spell Lore(M), Spell Specialization(haste), Greater Spell Spec, Spell Penetration, Empower Spell, Extra Path(M)
Mythic Abilities(tier 5 archmage): Wild Arcana, Harmonious Mage, Abundant Casting, Crafting Mastery, Component Freedom (M+V), Enduring Armor
I may be able to find the paladin in the group. If not he was a guardian/heirophant with mythic spellcasting.
The 4th player was an elven fighter/shadowdancer champion with mythic finesse, 2 weapon fighting and fleet charge(of course).
Thanks for sharing Seannoss! I'm looking over them now, but as always with characters they take a bit to absorb. Did you all finish the entire AP?
Nope... up to the final part of book 4. Level 13/5 where Lyra is at. I was redesigning Hepzamirah and was overcome on how ridiculous mythic rules were... mostly because I was worried about my PCs, as she could one shot any PC without rolling dice. Also a reason I switched to critical hit cards.
And I also didn't include their items, but there were many. My mistake for allowing/having a mythic crafter, but at the time it felt right to go along with whats in the citadel.
But even without that, there is a lot of treasure in the AP.
Some take aways. Wow, your casters both have really high casting stats (granted mine will have at least +4 from mythic by the time they're tier 5), but Galvak has a 17, and Zack has a 17. That means their spell DCs are about 5 lower than yours.
I also find it amusing that Lyra has a higher AC than everyone in my party. And it seems like your party did a very good job of covering their saving throws.
I'm glad to see this, because it reinforces the idea that the discrepancies we're seeing probably have to do a bit with optimizing.
In a similar format to what you used here is my party, bolding where I see gaps (All are level 8 tier 1):
F: 10 R: 4 W: 2 AC: 21 HP: 113
Feats: Power Attack, Toughness(M), Dodge, Improved Grapple
Path Abilities: Champion Strike(Fleet Charge), Uncanny Grapple
F: 10 R: 5 W: 13 AC: 23 HP: 94
Feats: Extra Channel, Iron Will(M), Heavy Armor, Combat Casting
Path Abilities: Guardian(Sudden Block), Adamantine Mind
F: 4 R: 10 W: 4 AC: 22 HP: 70
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Armor of the Pit, Dodge(M), Mobility, Spring Attack
Path Abilities: Surprise Strike, Mythic Sustenence
F: 6 R: 9 W: 5 AC: 17 HP: 76
Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus(Bow), Iron Will(M), Clustered Shots, Rapid Shot, Improved Precise Shot
Path Abilities: Marshal(Advance), Pierce the Darkness
F: 5 R: 3 W: 1 (at a -5 because of madness) AC: 17 HP: 71
Feats: Combat Casting, Uncanny Concentration, Spell Focus(Conjuration), Augment Summons, Dual Path
Path Abilities: Archmage(Arcane Surge), Guardian(Sudden Block), Mythic Spellcasting
Those caster stats are each buffed by a +4 item and +4 from mythic, and maybe more from the extra levels. Going by the forums (as discussed a very dangerous thing) their casting stats may be 'low' for mid to high level characters.
They were also going to be slowed down. I realized things a bit late but had told my PCs that the mythic boost could not be used on the same stat more than twice.
I guess my group does put high priority on saves... don't even ask what a mythic paladins saves are :) But even the fighter was an elf, with a 14 or 16 Wis and iron will. Your PCs have taken iron will too, I imagine with items and more buffs (like eternal mythic heroism) the saves will get there.
Sure the investment in Iron Will helped Marcus, but Galvak spent 2 feats on it one of which was mythic, and then went and got Adamantine Mind. I feel like he's over invested in that particular save. I know Reflex isn't used often, but I'm surprised he didn't at least put some investment there.
EDIT: Not to mention his Will would be +11 without all of those feats.
And found the paladin too.
St 20 Dx 18 Cn 17 In 14 Ws 13 Ch 24
Fort 20 Ref 17 Will 18 AC 35 HP 211
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Great Mercy??, Selective Channel, Power Attack(M), Sword Oath, Gr Weapon Focus, Imp Critical(M, Dual Path(M)
Mythic Abilities (hierophant/guardian): Mythic Caster, Eldritch Breach, Display of Charisma, Sudden Block, Absorb Blow
Or close to that... over a year old and the hand writing is hard to read. He was a challenge in the AP just for being a paladin, as he had the highest AC, best saves and did the most damage. I believe his attack routine with haste was +31/+31/+26/+21 for a d8+48/17-20/x3. He also gave up a smite, took a 'display' feat and was a paladin mythic caster... an odd mix that I do not consider optimized.
Wow, that is insane. It'll be interesting to see where my players are when they're around that level, and I'll certainly check back when they are. How did Elric get 211 HP though? If I'm counting everything right that's 1 off max.
EDIT: Were you allowing retraining? Or were there lucky rolls, or something else?
Anyways, we just had our second session inside of Drezen on Saturday. It went pretty well, but things certainly took a long time.
We picked up right where we left off in the Sally Port encounter. Unsurprisingly, they delayed behind cover until Zack was able to cast mythic haste on everyone (they've come to rely heavily on this spell). What they didn't realize though was the acrobatics bonus the spell granted for increased movement. That allowed everyone to jump the pit and get into the adjoining room with full cover from the archers.
Once set up, Eb started working on unlocking the doors out of the room (he rolled 7 rounds, so it was going to take a while). While he was doing that, Demitrius and Marcus ran up to the arrow slits in their room and started returning fire. However, Barrid (realizing that they were moving on) summoned in a Dust Mephit and had him put up a wind wall to protect their retreat.
Realizing that, the party broke initiative to focus on getting the door unlocked. I had Barrid and the Rangers move into the Templar's Court with the Vrock, and Barrid knowing the party had resist energy up, decided to instead Rage and Bull's Strength the Vrock. The Vrock tried to summon but failed, so they all took up positions since they knew the direction the party would have to come from.
After a bit of scouting and discussion on tactics the Party readied and on Zack's mythic haste (really relying on this spell) we rolled initiative.
I had the Vrock move to the corner of the hallway where the party was going to enter and use his shriek. My reasoning was two fold. First, if he used it after the party came in it'd hit all of his allies in the room. Second, knowing there was no effective way to use it, telling the party make a DC 21 Fort save would give them pause. That worked.
Everyone failed except for Wiki (Zack's Eidolon), who on his turn moved up to peak into the room. Seeing the Vrock he decided it was best retreat back to the group and wait.
The battle from this point lasted the rest of session (about three to four exhausting hours). The party decided, for the most part, to focus on taking the Vrock out, but they entirely underestimated the archers from the Sally Port. Using the Vrock's telepathy he had them focus fire on whoever had a chance of ruining his day. Barrid attempted to flank the party in the hallway by Dimension Dooring behind them. Marcus finally turned him into a pin cushion before he had a chance to do absolutely anything.
Take Aways:
-I hadn't even considered Rage and Bull's Strength on the Vrock until the encounter was about to happen. I think his attacks were all at +15 to hit, and all of them did xdy+14. The highest AC in the group was 24, so anything 9 or above was going to hurt.
-I can't imagine any group getting through this with a second Vrock. I'm really glad he failed to come (rolled a 42).
-I think for the most part they're entirely out of mythic points, and most spells now.
-Demitrius, Marcus, and Irabeth all went under -10, Demitrius was under -20. Galvak went under 10, but I think Eb, Zack, and Wiki were mostly unharmed.
-Zack's DCs are way too low. His big debuff is slow, but the DC on it is only 15 [Second level spell, and Cha 17]. He twice used Archmage(Arcane Surge) to cast slow on the Vrock, both times he overcame its SR, but the Vrock had a +8 Will (+2 morale from Heroism (also +1 morale from Rage, but that doesn't stack)). Both times the Vrock didn't roll lower than a 7, so he passed.
-Perhaps, most hilariously Galvak cast Holy Smite right next to Nurah. She passed her save, and Bluffed (rolled a natural 19) to see if anyone noticed she got hurt. Considering she was behind everyone, and no one was too invested in Sense Motive they didn't notice. This however knocked her under 30 HP, so the next turn I had her cast cure serious wounds on herself. They party was a bit confused, but didn't ask too much about it. Then next round she cast invisibility, again the party was confused and didn't think much about it. The next round, they heard the door to the Sally Port open, then close, and then they heard someone casting a spell (Zack determined it was Arcane Lock). Again they were confused, not really sure what was happening. Some of them thought someone else was joining the battle. Others thought she got scared and was running away. And then it finally clicked, at least for the player running Galvak. Then I had Eb roll a Sense Motive check, and I told him that he finally had a strong suspect for the traitor they'd been suspicious might exist.
-This deserves its own section, because after all of that? After they used almost everything to kill the Vrock, Barrid, and his minions? After coming to terms that Nurah's betrayed them? They realized that she didn't just leave them, she's locked them in. With no place to rest.
Wow, that is insane. It'll be interesting to see where my players are when they're around that level, and I'll certainly check back when they are. How did Elric get 211 HP though? If I'm counting everything right that's 1 off max.
EDIT: Were you allowing retraining? Or were there lucky rolls, or something else?
He did have the campaign trait that gave an extra 3 hp per level. As an aside we do use slightly generous hp rolling and I did allow retraining in this campaign. Although not for extra hp, that rules doesn't pass my smell test.
He did have the campaign trait that gave an extra 3 hp per level. As an aside we do use slightly generous hp rolling and I did allow retraining in this campaign. Although not for extra hp, that rules doesn't pass my smell test.Wow, that is insane. It'll be interesting to see where my players are when they're around that level, and I'll certainly check back when they are. How did Elric get 211 HP though? If I'm counting everything right that's 1 off max.
EDIT: Were you allowing retraining? Or were there lucky rolls, or something else?
Gotcha, I'm doing retraining for additional HP, but not allowing any rerolls on HP. What they roll is what they get.
So far it has worked really well, and because of that I'm seeing people invest heavily in FCB, Toughness, and Con. Which is good.
They've had a total of 10 days, between book 1 and 2. Which I think allowed some of them to retrain up to 3 HP back.
And I forgot about that trait! Galvak has it, and wow is it crazy. Demitrius was very jealous of it when he found out, haha.
Yup. The campaign traits for this one are pretty much like having an extra mythic power.
Reading about your group is very interesting, much different than other posters here. (like I ran a side adventure when they were 6/1 against a vrock and the paladin killed it in one round. And then I disallowed mythic vital strike.) They still hated vrocks later (and half vrocks too!) as I made liberal use of their spell like abilities.
Yup. The campaign traits for this one are pretty much like having an extra mythic power.
Reading about your group is very interesting, much different than other posters here. (like I ran a side adventure when they were 6/1 against a vrock and the paladin killed it in one round. And then I disallowed mythic vital strike.) They still hated vrocks later (and half vrocks too!) as I made liberal use of their spell like abilities.
How did he one round it? That's just absurd! I don't think my party could even approach that.
Demitrius hits for d10+19 when raging and two-handing. He gets 4 attacks with mythic haste and using his Fleet Charge. He's also got the world serpent totem so he'll bypass DR.
Assuming all 4 hit, and he rolls max that's 116. So maybe I can see that happening now (but wouldn't even come close to expecting it), but 2 levels ago?
EDIT: Even if I gave Demitrius Mythic Vital Strike that's only one Vital Strike attack, and then Fleet Charge (which he can't apply Vital Strike to since it isn't the attack action).
If the Vital Strike hit, that's 2d10+38 and then the Fleet Charge is only d10+19 still. So that'd hurt his damage output (assuming mythic haste).
Also, did the Vrock have Mirror Image up?
And that is one thing I did not do. I used Heroism, Teleport, and Mirror Image, but did not use Telekenisis. I could've used that to disarm a bunch of them, but they closed to melee so fast and he was playing whack-a-mole with the party so there was never a good time to do it.
I also completely forgot about Cleave during this encounter. =(
I think he was a champion at the time, and still a paladin. Double damage from smite plus mythic vital strike ( I think would push it to around 2d8 + 48), plus a sudden attack... maybe there was a crit involved. Its been a long time, but it opened my eyes on what mythic characters could do.
I don't think it had mirror image up. After that I started implementing that enemies started pre buffed as mythic foes can't waste a round casting buffs.
And wait til Demetrius gets mythic power attack.
EDIT: I always forgot about cleave too. Or it never felt like a good idea with a creature with 5 attacks. I may have subbed it out.
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I think he was a champion at the time, and still a paladin. Double damage from smite plus mythic vital strike ( I think would push it to around 2d8 + 48), plus a sudden attack... maybe there was a crit involved. Its been a long time, but it opened my eyes on what mythic characters could do.
I don't think it had mirror image up. After that I started implementing that enemies started pre buffed as mythic foes can't waste a round casting buffs.
And wait til Demetrius gets mythic power attack.
EDIT: I always forgot about cleave too. Or it never felt like a good idea with a creature with 5 attacks. I may have subbed it out.
Thinking back over the encounter, I'm not sure it would've mattered if I had remembered it. He was full-attacking every round, even the first so he couldn't use Cleave.
Also, I think its a smart feat to put on the Vrock, especially when coupled with Combat Reflexes. It prevents the party from backing up and provoking an AoO to prevent him from full-attacking each round. They could do that, but with Cleave and Combat Reflexes, he can still get up to 4 attacks (all at 2d6, rather than x2 2d6, 1d8, x2 1d6). Which makes getting away from this guy a bit scary. Not to mention he can greater teleport at will.
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Not much to add yet - however, you asked about how my experiences had been going, I believe.
Hopefully this helps.
I'll try and get some stat numbers from my group, for your comparison. If you have questions about how specific events went, feel free to ask. :)
(I'd have just PMed you back, but I wanted to dot this thread.)
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Not much to add yet - however, you asked about how my experiences had been going, I believe.
Hopefully this helps.
I'll try and get some stat numbers from my group, for your comparison. If you have questions about how specific events went, feel free to ask. :)
(I'd have just PMed you back, but I wanted to dot this thread.)
Thank you so much for starting a campaign journal! They're a lot of work (at least for me, I can't imagine what it's like for NobodysHome), but I can say I find them really helpful when it comes time to prepare for a given session.
We're not playing this week, but I wanted to spend some time covering in detail something that I've only mentioned in passing that has had a huge impact on our game.
Drezen's Doors: First of all, while my players do have multiple adamantine weapons I am not allowing them to use them to break down the doors. It has always bothered me that these weapons make things such as Iron Doors pointless, and it seems silly to build things like castles if players can just attack a wall like it were paper.
At least that was until I spotted this:
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.
It's a wonderful rule as it allows DMs to apply reason to something seemingly unreasonable. After reading about Drezen I envisioned it literally, as a Citadel meant to withstand a demonic siege. The descriptions of the doors reinforced that idea, and it seemed extremely silly to allow a player wielding an adamantine weapon take a few swings at it to knock it down, when it was built to withstand far greater.
So with sanity restored we now had to address how the players would get in. The Rogue, Eb, had a decent Disable Device (+19), but the doors are DC 35. That means he needs to hit a 16 to open the door. Tough, but nothing take 20 can't solve (at least so I thought, more on this later). Anyways, I only expected at worst, that it would slow them down during the Sally Port encounter.
Anyways, fast forward to the first game night the players entered Drezen, and while reading over Disable Device I find out that complex devices take 2d4 rounds to disable. Which immediately throws a wrench in their plans.
The player can take 20 on these, but:
Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
So taking 20 means he's going to be spending 4 - 16 minutes at each door. (I quickly house ruled that we'd just take the average which is 10 minutes). He's been rolling but they're still taking a long time at each door.
All of that adds up to this issue; they're losing their 1 min/level buffs each time they have to unlock a door.
Certainly ambivalent, though a bit surprised. I didn't expect doors to present an obstacle to party.
Though as I said I do think the ineffective weapons bit is a good thing.
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Certainly ambivalent, though a bit surprised. I didn't expect doors to present an obstacle to party.
Though as I said I do think the ineffective weapons bit is a good thing.
I agree there. I'm now on PC, so I can tag a little more easily...
I was referring more to the time spent and the expiration of buffs. My groups tend to hasten through dungeons for exactly this reason; on top of that, my Wrath of the Righteous party had no primary Disable Device specialist.
They now have a cohort for that. In fact, Helkrix's DD was a major qualification for her joining the group - even if it restricts her from wearing proper full plate.
Captain Yesterday, not sure why you removed your post but it gave me a good chuckle!
I think its a good thing because there isn't much they can do about it other than accept the time spent. Like I pointed out all spells that have a duration of or shorter than 1 minute/level expire by the time they move to the next room.
Since they know that, they're not buffing up before they enter a dungeon and then trying to run through every room. Enemies with Dispel Magic become a lot less scary (since they only have a few buffs up). And the players are taking time to roleplay, explore, and investigate. They know their buffs will expire so why hurry?
That said, I personally don't like 1 minute/level buffs because they encourage players to rush on to the next room. They also don't help 15 minute adventuring days as players are hesitant to press on when they can go back and rest without penalty.
Does that answer your question?
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I forgot to use a spoiler tag then accidentally deleted it, on a dog walk using phone, it's spring so he's yanking me all around lol
Using the Adamantine Great Sword on the doors would be like trying to use a can opener without the turny thingy, sure it can be done but it'll take forever and totally suck
Edit: there you go Ssyvan, still on my phone but ditched the dog at home and are at the toy store :-)
Edit 2: also sounds like you guys are having fun :-)
Not to keep pointing out rules but....
Using the Adamantine Great Sword on the doors would be like trying to use a can opener without the turny thingy, sure it can be done but it'll take forever and totally suck
Edit: there you go Ssyvan, still on my phone but ditched the dog at home and are at the toy store :-)
Edit 2: also sounds like you guys are having fun :-)
We are! I'm a bit worried whether we will continue to, but at least for now we are. =)
On another note, having never tried either, I'd prefer a big greatsword to a mace for taking down a stone door. I also dislike the 1 min/lvl buffs.
Not to keep pointing out rules but....
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Not to keep pointing out rules but....
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Aha! Heh... I even read that too :) Guess I was going by what the book says. Now its down to how you want to run your game. It would bother me as a player but you know your group best (of course!)
Aha! Heh... I even read that too :) Guess I was going by what the book says. Now its down to how you want to run your game. It would bother me as a player but you know your group best (of course!)Not to keep pointing out rules but....
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Eh, I don't think the book says it takes one round to open a lock. I could be wrong on this, so if you're up for the discussion I'd love some fresh eyes on the subject!
Reading the actions section:
Action: The amount of time needed to make a Disable Device check depends on the task, as noted above. Disabling a simple device takes 1 round and is a full-round action. A tricky or difficult device requires 1d4 or 2d4 rounds. Attempting to open a lock is a full-round action.
-The amount of time for a Disable Device check depends on the task.
-Disabling a simple device takes one round and is a full-round action.
--This is really where the crux of my reasoning lies. Here we're setting the action for disable device to full-round action regardless of the task. So that its implied that tricky or difficult devices are also full-round actions that take 1d4 to 2d4 rounds.
-The confusion lies with the last statement that attempting to open a lock is a full-round action.
--While this states the action type, it doesn't state how long opening a lock takes. Note that above it makes a distinction between action and time required. Simple devices take 1 round, not all locks are simple. Which leads me to.
-Locks are devices. This is as far as I'm aware the only assumption I'm making.
Okay, to sum up. Devices take a variable amount of time. Their action is full-round action.
Now the natural question is: Why is opening locks specifically called out as a Full-Round action?
I can see this leading to the response, because they only take one round to open. But, I see two alternate reasons.
-They simply carried the language from Open Locks into Disable Device for completions sake.
-It allows them to create abilities such as:
Trap Saboteur (Su): At 8th level, a cat burglar becomes a master of avoiding and manipulating traps and locks. She can attempt to open a lock as a standard action and takes 1/2 the normal amount of time to disable traps (minimum 1 round) . When she has bypassed a trap without disarming it, she can also choose to suppress its trigger for up to 1 minute. If she does, she can also choose to end this suppression prematurely as a free action. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Which would allow someone opening locks to stealth while doing so. Which isn't normally possible, and makes the ability rather cool.
Hmm, its an interesting idea. I can totally see tougher locks taking longer to open.
However, I believe your assumption is a big one. I would think that opening locks is called out because it is different from other devices, or because it isn't counted as a device.
Not that I can offer any proof behind my thoughts. I will point out that the 4 locks complexities called out do not match the same levels listed in disable device. If they were meant to be the same, wouldn't the same words be used?
Also, if the cat burglar ability you linked could shave off multiple rounds of lock picking it would be much more powerful. The ability also calls out lowering times for traps and for locks; maybe meaning that they aren't on the same time table.
Hm, mind if I move this discussion over to the rules forum? Your last post has me questioning things, and I think a broader discussion could be useful!
No prob. Thought it was odd you wanted to digress in our own spot, but it was yours :)
Not that I have much more to add. Its a classic PF issue; does mentioning something new mean anything? Does the period and sentence separation mean a different rule?
No prob. Thought it was odd you wanted to digress in our own spot, but it was yours :)
Not that I have much more to add. Its a classic PF issue; does mentioning something new mean anything? Does the period and sentence separation mean a different rule?
Hah! I just wasn't thinking is all. =p
Okay, post is up here
Hey guys! I wanted to thank all of you for this thread and others you've commented on concerning WotR. They were constructive, informative, and in several cases, amusing. I begin running the AP on Monday and I'm eager to see what my players are going to do.
I've decided to use the non-Mythic options presented in part 2 for my game(fast track xp, attribute boosts, etc) with minor adjustments as we go. Based on what I've read in the forums(PC's obliterating even Mythic encounters), it doesn't seem like too big of a stretch to keep the Mythic monsters as is while the previous options.
Hey guys! I wanted to thank all of you for this thread and others you've commented on concerning WotR. They were constructive, informative, and in several cases, amusing. I begin running the AP on Monday and I'm eager to see what my players are going to do.
I've decided to use the non-Mythic options presented in part 2 for my game(fast track xp, attribute boosts, etc) with minor adjustments as we go. Based on what I've read in the forums(PC's obliterating even Mythic encounters), it doesn't seem like too big of a stretch to keep the Mythic monsters as is while the previous options.
Glad you're finding some use from it! We just wrapped up a session today, and I'll try and post about it when I get a chance to collect my thoughts. Not sure when that'll be though. =p (Probably Monday at the latest)
Oh man, what a session.
So we started off right where slightly after where we left off (some emails were tossed around between sessions, that included some RP, identifying items, buffing, healing, etc).
Part of that included an impassioned speech by Irabeth to push forth to the Sword of Valor, or at least it's original vault since they were so close. Not wanting to miss an opportunity the party eventually decided it was best, and decided to press on.
At some point, Eb noticed some chanting coming from Iomedae's chapel, and Galvak was able to confirm that the chants were typical of those given to crusaders about to battle. So naturally, they knocked.
Sure enough, they were greeted by a grizzled warrior who seemed a bit confused, but no worse for the wear, and amazingly enough Iomedae herself. They were not amused, but without anything to show them it wasn't what it seemed they cautiously proceeded, with Irabeth and Galvak accepting her blessing.
Irabeth going first, passed both her saves, and quickly alerted the party something was amiss as the warriors rose, gusimares at the ready. Demitrius, empassioned as always, killed the one nearest him before Galvak had a chance to warn them they could be charmed/dominated. But after that, Eb dashed into the chapel (he'd been just outside) and dropped a darkness blinding them all. After that Galvak put up a magic circle against evil, and actually knocked two of the three remaining warriors out of their stupor.
Marcus meanwhile laid into Janeamine connecting with two of his three arrows, injuring her and putting her on the defensive.
At this point Janeamine teleports away, leaving the party to collect themselves and asses their new allies. Or so they think.
Behind the scenes I had Janeamine teleport away, summon in a Babau, and then she cast Vampiric Touch on it, healingish herself. The party passed the spellcraft checks and were completely shocked by such a tactic.
They ran out to where they heard this, got ambushed by the Babau, she got a Charm off on Eb, but that was cleared by a Protection from Evil from Zack. And about then she was surrounded, so I had her Etheral Jaunt away, and drop her profane gift on the warriors, actually knocking one of them unconcious from the Cha drain.
At this point they waited on edge for a few minutes before deciding she wasn't coming back for now. So they went on to the Vault, licking their wounds from the Babau along the way.
They almost covered all of their bases once getting to the false vault. Detect Magic, Take 20 Perception, Detect Evil, all were used scouting out the area. I took a slight liberty here, the book says the sword is an elaborate fake, so I allowed Magic Aura to have been cast upon it. Finally, expecting a trap, poor Eb offered to go up and get the Sword alone.
He took 2 slams from the Mimics in the surprise round, and then got grapple smited well into the negatives as the first mimic won initiative. Irabeth charged forward to try and help, but was also grapple smited to death. At this point they made it through the slog, but Galvak also lost conciousness (going down to -13).
They pushed through, killed the mimics, were thrilled and dismayed about the armor and Irabeth respectively. And they were just about to leave the damned citadel for rest when they heard Janeamine calling to them from the Chapel with a proposition. Basically accept her gift or expect a fight.
At this point, literally every spell has been cast. Not a single spell is left at the party's disposal. Hearing this they drank the remaining healing potions, getting them all to the mid 30s. They're completely out of Mythic Power. They have no healing wands, or healing potions.
So they considered it and decided against accepting the gift.
Marcus lines up his shot, but she hits him with a Charm Monster. Now, Marcus has Mythic Iron Will, and manages to blow both saves. So he's charmed. Galvak who is getting ready for a fight, attracts her attention next, so she asks Marcus to make Galvak allow her a moment to explain her offer.
Eventually the party ends up grouped for a few minutes discussing whats going on.
And this is probably where I should explain the board what's going on. I've decided that Janeamine has a god complex. Seeing an opportunity to usurp this crusade and make it "her" crusade seems extremely delightful. I also think it sets up some things to come quite nicely, and frankly my group has had enough seems to be nice but is traitor moments. So allowing Janeamine to be a frenemy (I hate that word) seems appealing for the moment.
Taking this to its conclusion, her current plan is to Alter Self as Irabeth (I know Alter Self can't do this, but considering the AP already had her use it to appear as Iomedae, I think this is a reasonable change) who will claim that Janeamine brought her back from the dead. I'm stealing a bit from that other succubus later, as she'll go ahead and cast charm on herself. The party should be able to notice that.
Eventually she'll try to charm all of them using her gift on them if she succeeds. Long term, she's going to try to take a crack at leading Drezen.
I haven't read over books 3-6 too closely, but I was wondering, how does this work with those events?
Oh, they eventually let Marcus out to get his gift. And when he returned he also had some information. They learned about Jestak, the unguarded Armory, and that Staunton was behind most of this.
Not sure if your players read this so...
The Sword of Valor does limit the teleportation abilities of demons, it may do other things too.
I may have missed something in your description; how much do the PCs know? Like why would they believe Irabeth was resurrected by the succubus?
There are a number of things I can seeing going wrong with her plan. For one, she isn't aware of Zack's multiple personality disorder, so if she does manage to charm them all, if Zack woke up as Flint, he wouldn't be charmed. If he managed to alert Sosiel, they just might be able to get out from under her control (assuming she succeeds).
I'll certainly fill everyone in on how it all happens as soon as we play next!
I would suggest not using the other succubus as you would already have a demonic dupe.
I'm also thinking that you could combine her role with Jerribeth's in book 3 to help give your PCs a victory, whatever could make for a better, more memorable enemy.