Functionality of an all wizard party


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Silver Crusade

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Been toying around with the idea of some themed campaigns... holy pilgrim journey, thief mafia style campaign, all aquatic etc...

Most of those are obviously possible if not weird due to things like alignment or water movement rules. The idea that is really the one that is hardest to gauge without actually testing, is the concept of an all wizard party.

For the sake of this idea, lets go with PFS legality for character creation (ignoring the papers needed for things like Ifrit), starting at level 1. We can also assume piazo modules such as society, adventures and adventure paths.

Providing everyone went in knowing what they were doing, and was o.k. with the concept... could someone have a functional party of all wizards for an extended time?

My biggest concerns at the moment is:

1. Blasting: the characters are just going to be mowed down or mow down the enemy in one round.

2. While wizards can fill every role in the party to limited degrees in the fighter-wizard-cleric-rouge set up... they can be lacking in certain aspects at certain levels (how do you have a tank at level 1?)

So is this a fools errand... or would the career students of a wizard academy that got destroyed, wandering around trying to figure out how to survive in the world... be a workable idea?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For a standard campaign it's a hopeless cause. For a home campaign, a GM can make it work and appropriately challenging.


totally fine, if the party is built as a functional group (ie, one person has high int and cha for face skills and umd, one person takes craft potion to churn out potions of whatever that arcane healing devil blood spell is, etc). everyone can spend traits to pick up class skills in a few things to make the group spread out a bit, skillwise. only one needs to be the wise loremaster.

adventure paths are not built for pfs standards, they are built for 15 point buy, so its really not all that bad.

only thing you'd really want to allow would be crafting feats, for obvious reasons. (mostly, potions, wands, etc). i know thats not pfs legal, so take that for what its worth

Shadow Lodge

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I like the idea of wizards stuck outside their element.

Wizard: "So, uh, our mage's college was destroyed. Where is your library?"

Peasant: "..."

Reminds me of Magicka.


Nothing wrong with an "all-wizard" party; definitely different and probably would break some presumptions in adventure paths. If you're running your own home-brew campaign that will be designed for this kind of party I don't see a problem. Personally, I'd allow Sorcerers alongside them.

Quote:
1. Blasting: the characters are just going to be mowed down or mow down the enemy in one round.

Yup, this is entirely possible and quite an effective strategy when you have critical mass of casters. However, any combination of arcane spells cast in rapid succession are going to be potential combat-enders. The ability of this party to go full-throttle and really decimate their enemies is going to be their strength; let them revel in this.

It's maintaining that kind of power output across multiple encounters that's tricky. If you want to challenge this party then try staggering the placement and timing of encounters so it's harder to do a smack-down with a few well-placed spells.

Quote:
2. While wizards can fill every role in the party to limited degrees in the fighter-wizard-cleric-rouge set up... they can be lacking in certain aspects at certain levels (how do you have a tank at level 1?)

When dealing with a party like this, discard the usual notion of "roles". This party is going to have fundamentally different tactics due to their highly specialized nature. That's what makes this kind of game appealing.


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One of the funniest things I have ever heard of was a group that had played together for a long time all decided to play something different for a new campaign and all of them showed up with barbarians... none of then could read or anything, it was very funny

Shadow Lodge

I would suggest you allow the players to have varied stats. Maybe one could be 'the tough guy', because he has a Str score above 10, and casts transmutation or evocation.

Grand Lodge

Now, a party of Witches can work.

Not quite as well in PFS.

By the way, Pathfinder Barbarians can read.


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Depending on the specialization of the individual wizards, and how the GM feels about the idea of a 10-round adventuring day, the first few levels are going to be very one-sided.

int NumWizPC
for Round(i=1, i<=NumWizPC, i++)
{
if SpellsMem >= 0
StdAct(CastSpell) = Sleep
else FullRdAct(Withdraw)
}


DigMarx wrote:

Depending on the specialization of the individual wizards, and how the GM feels about the idea of a 10-round adventuring day, the first few levels are going to be very one-sided.

int NumWizPC
for Round(i=1, i<=NumWizPC, i++)
{
if SpellsMem >= 0
StdAct(CastSpell) = Sleep
else FullRdAct(Withdraw)
}

Not entirely. Some are going to oppose enchantment and use color spray. Some may even oppose both enchantment and illusion and use grease.

Silver Crusade

I thought about it a lot... and traditional D&D style wizards really aren't going to be much...

Let me clarify... Can school powers, varied buff spells and limited wizard combat ability make a passable group?

At level 1, say a half orc wizard had

STR 12
DEX 14 (+2) race mod
CON 15
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 8

Lets give him transmutation school, opposed abjuration and enchantment

We'll give him combat casting as a bonus feat, and toad as a bonus feat. With his school physical enhancement he would have 16 Con. With favored class in HP, he'd have 6+1+3+3 or 13 HP.

He gets 6 level 1 spells, for his level 1's

1. Mage armor
2. Enlarge Person
3. Shocking Grasp
4. Shield
5. Protection from X
6. Stone Fist

Prepared in general

0 Touch of fatigue
0 Disrupt Undead
0 Mage Hand
0 Haunted fey aspect

1 Mage armor
1 Shield
1 enlarge person

So at level 1 he should be rocking a dagger or club. If he pulls off all his buffs, he'll have 19 AC... and his dagger is +1 to hit, and 1d6+2 damage

He's basically a mediocre monk/rouge/cleric for combat sake if I'm judging the numbers right.

Also, this potentially gives them a huge selection of starting spells as they have a book club going...


He'd be rocking a great axe or falchion because he's a half-orc, and there's no reason not to dump charisma all the way to 7. No reason not to drop con to 14 either since by the time he could bump it to 16 he'll have better defenses and the conjurer will be taking up some of the tanking duties with summons.


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I've actually been toying around with an idea like this as of late. I'm not sure the legality of all the races in PFS but basically it goes something like this:

Tiefling Transmuter, Enhancement Subschool (The party's tank/melee DPS)
Ratfolk Necromancer, Undead Subschool (Party face, just from moderately high Cha, along with being the main debuff specialist)
Human Conjurer, no subschool (Summoning and Battlefield Control)
Samsaran Diviner, Foresight Subschool (Utility and Backup Debuff/Support)

More in depth explanation of roles, stats and stuff to come.


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More in depth analysis of previously mentioned Wizard party (and hey, I'm right below myself). To the OP, note again that none of this is really specified for PFS. Sorry about that, but it might be an interesting read anyway and give some ideas for how such a party might function.

Just a note: I mostly focus on their combat capabilities as, between the 4 of them, they have a ton of versatility in spell selection and quite a lot of skill points floating around to make their out of combat utility pretty self-explanatory. They do focus on different roles (such as the Necromancer handling most social skills, the Diviner handling Wisdom based skills like Perception and Sense Motive), and a few of them take traits to grab suitable class skills as well, like the Transmuter picking up Stealth.

Anyway, when I look at spell loadout, I generally assume that they have these spells prepared knowing they'll probably be facing combat at some point and so devote the slots to them. In reality, they'd probably only prepare things they'd definitely need in a fight, and leave other slots open in case something else comes up, only filling slots fully if they plan on specifically finding battle.

Character Creation and Level 1:
Just to make them diverse, they've got varying alignments and stuff, but I basically figure that, considering the all-wizard deal, they are probably friends with each other through attending some wizard school at the same time or something like that, so they're cool working with each other. Anyway here we go.

Tiefling Transmuter: Neutral Good. Stats are obviously a bit tricky with him, being a full caster with 1/2 BAB and trying to handle melee combat duties, but he ends up with 15/15/15/16/10/6 after racials (built on 20 point buy) and his Transmutation School Power boosts one of those stats (most likely strength) to 16. Barred Schools are Enchantment and Divination. Arcane Bond is a Bat, that I haven't put much thought into, to be honest. Later upgraded with Improved Familiar, perhaps to a Pseudodragon, or something that can UMD items.

He takes the claws alternate racial, giving him two nice natural attacks to rely on in melee. His AC is mostly reliant on spells, but 2 Dex, plus 4 from a Mage Armor, and 4 from Shield cast as soon as combat starts gets him 20, which is not terrible for first level. His Con mod, Toughness, and favored class bonus see him at 12 HP, which means he can likely take a hit or two and keep on trucking.

Ratfolk Necromancer: Chaotic Good. Stats after racials: 7/16/12/17/10/14 (Cha could probably be lower, but eh). Barred Schools are Conjuration and Abjuration. Arcane Bond is an item for quick access to any needed spell.

He's a bit short of luck in early levels, as his primary strength (commanding hordes of undead) isn't really accessible until later level spells. Spell Focus Necromancy however, and spells like Cause Fear let him disrupt enemies somewhat nicely. Otherwise, magic missile is always a fallback, and he's got a crossbow to pelt enemies with (side note, all of them have crossbows to pelt the enemy, even the Transmuter, though he'd likely do better up close and personal. So, a lot of encounters will probably be: Transmuter goes to slice up and occupy the enemies, everyone else pelts them with bolts. Perhaps also delaying their turns to let the Tiefling 5-foot step away, allowing for clear shots).

Human Conjurer: Lawful Evil, mostly in a ruthless way more than malevolent. Racial bonus goes into Int, leaving her final stats as 10/14/12/19/10/10. Barred Schools are Necromancy and Illusion. Hawk familiar, also upgraded later, maybe to an Imp, although one might be wary of keeping an extreme aligned outsider around this party, at least at all times.

At early levels, she mostly relies on Summon Monster spells (her school power letting them stay at least 1 round longer). Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning right off the bat helps for letting them do some damage, and if nothing else, they're nice flanking buddies for the Tiefling for a round or two. Otherwise, she pelts people with the crossbow, or can let loose a Grease spell in the right situation.

Samsaran Diviner: True Neutral. Stats after racials are 10/14/11/18/14/10. Barred Schools are Evocation and Transmutation. Another item bond for spont-casting any known spell once per day.

She takes Mystic Past Life to grab some useful spells that aren't on the Wizard List, though with an eye generally for the later and greater things, like Heal, Resurrection, Death Ward, Harm, Freedom of Movement (oh, and not CLW. Infernal Healing is much more readily accessible to the party). As far as spells go at this level, she mostly relies on knockouts like Color Spray and Sleep. She's actually also pretty likely to be good with the crossbow thanks to True Strike (not many other Divination spells to prepare in that slot), and the Foresight school power of rolling a d20 to be used later in your turn. But yeah, like our Conjurer and Necromancer, she'll probably be using that crossbow a lot at this level as well.

Summary: So, there's level 1. Not exactly easy going for them, but I'm inclined to think that careful tactics can help them overcome most obstacles about as well as any other group. At this point, to-hit still relies quite a lot on the dice rolls. The melee combatant can already do two attacks with a decent modifier to hit, and each of the other party members have +2 or +3 Dex mods for ranged attacks. All in all, they're not terribly unlikely to do some damage, and focus firing could bring down enemies somewhat swiftly.

Or, or course, I could just be wrong. Maybe they wouldn't fare as well I think they can. At any rate though, assuming they can do alright, moving on to higher levels.

Level 5:
Transmuter: At level 3 he takes Weapon Focus (Claws), not only for claws in his regular form, but for future polymorphing combat. Level 5 sees him pick up Arcane Strike for 2 extra damage, and more later, along with Extend spell, letting Mage Armor last most of the day, and he gets access to Beast Shape I, allowing some magical augmentation for combat.

Necromancer: Greater Spell Focus on Necromancy helps improve his debuffs, and Improved Initiative comes up at level 5, just as a useful thing in general. He (and pretty much everyone except our Transmuter) picks up Fast Study at 5th level for quick spell prep. Ghoul Touch and Vampiric Touch both serve for some protection if enemies close on him, but he can go ahead and start animating corpses for minions as well, helping fill out the meat shield department and alleviating stress on the Transmuter for melee combat. Slowing enemies is a magnificent debuff too, if not in his specialty.

Diviner: At this point, most of our Diviner's feats are not all that noticeably useful - Toughness, and Spell Pen/Greater Spell Pen. Not likely to come into play, but good for the future, and most metamagics she'll want to learn feature a bit too high of a level increase to be useful either. She fills out most of her spell slots with a couple nice things though, like Summon Monster (probably learned from the Conjurer), Heroism, See Invis/Glitterdust, to name a couple possibilities.

Conjurer: Well, her summoning abilities have certainly improved now. She can summon more powerful creatures or add a number of them to the map, to flank with the Transmuter and the Necromancer's minions. She takes Greater Spell Focus on Conjuration, and picks up Aqueous Orb for some kickass battlefield control too.

Note, I have her slated to pick up Craft Wondrous Item at level 3 to craft for the party, who likewise also pick up some other crafting feats, like Craft Rod and Forge Ring, to craft for the others. I know crafting feats are not supposed to count for people other than the one who has them, but in an actual campaign, having people craft for each other seems reasonable, much like a lot of their spell acquisition would likely be through each other (by learning separate spells on level up) or through party pool (everyone chips in for a scroll of useful spell X for everyone to learn, and so on).

Summary: By this point, they've become pretty well set for challenges in my opinion. The Transmuter will probably be main damage dealer still, but will have a lot of backup from the Necromancer and Conjurer. The Necromancer can do some effective crippling of enemy forces and the Conjurer can do some good battlefield control. The Diviner can manage several of these things, along with some other party support.

In truth, the Diviner, Necromancer, and Conjurer kind of all have some overlap on these duties, but I don't really see that as a bad thing personally.

And later levels...:
This post is already kind of long, so I'll do a quick overview of how things continue.

Around level 10, they each eliminate an opposition school of their choice through Opposition Research. Our Conjurer gets rid of Abjuration, Diviner gets rid of Transmutation, Necromancer clears Conjuration, and Transmuter clears Enchantment.

This lets the Diviner do some more enemy debuffs (Slow, best of all), and party support, such as Haste. The Necromancer can contribute to battlefield control through wall spells, separating or funneling enemies where best, taking his undead legions into account. The Conjurer can do some more party support with Abjuration open, and the Transmuter can go ahead and buff himself with things like Heroism.

They pick up some appropriate Metamagics. Our Conjurer learns Persistent and Dazing Spell, so she can smash enemies with Aqueous Orb, Ball Lightning, or other nice Evocation/Conjuration spells and lock enemies down. Our Diviner and Necromancer both pick up Persistent Spell to push debuffs on enemies, and start tossing Enervations, possibly Maximized, on enemies when needed. Our Transmuter picks up Eschew Materials, allowing him to cast while Polymorphed if he can meet the Somatic and Verbal components (such as in Dragon Form). They all get Quicken Spell, unsurprisingly.

Just a fun note, I could see them each taking the True Name discovery for an alignment appropriate outsider to call on when the situation suits them (and the outsider's motives).

Well, that's a fair amount of text. But yeah, so there's a little project I've been toying with.

So... TL;DR I think an all wizard party is quite possible and could be pretty neat.

Note, if you want more complete specifics, just ask (they're kind of loosely planned at 1, 5, 10, and 20, the later levels being more vaguely defined).


A samsaran could learn some more important healing spells.

Elves and half-orcs begin with some weapon choices that might be beneficial.

Consider starting at level 2 to allow for multi-class which allows for some more character concepts and to more easily fill the roles, even 1 level will make a huge difference.

A minor magical item to start with can help cover some roles at low level.

An alchemist, magus, sorcerer, bard(magician) or witch might still fit in a thematic party.


Darkwolf117 wrote:
So... TL;DR I think an all wizard party is quite possible and could be pretty neat.

I actually thing an all wizard party can be pretty brutal at mid levels. I don't think you really need a tank or a melee, just summon something that does it (or planar bind it). At early levels only immune to mind effecting can be problematic (the others can be handled by 4xDC16 color spray or sleep).

I'd go with:

Admixture blaster,
Teleportation summoner/controller,
Void SoD,
Forsight "scouter"

One or two should be Samsaran to add bard spells to their list (CLW etc), wizards trying to bypass SR should go Elf. Android is a pretty powerful option as well. One should have good cha for social skills and planar binding.

You should have enough skillpoints to cover each skill. I don't think you really need UMD though, but it's neat for your Lyrakien familiar.

Generally just go with the blue options from Prof. Q's guide, spread them across the different characters and you should have a party that is really difficult to challenge if played smart.


I currently am playing in an all wizard campaign. (i.e. no summoners, wiches, sorcs, etc.) Just full caster, stop oggling my spellbook wizards.

I have to say it has been a lot of fun. We are all 12th level now and have been having a blast. It is true that it is a much different style of play then most games i have been in.

We have a :

Conjurer (Infernal Binder) - me
Transmuiter - High strength paladin type.
Air mage
Diviner
Invoker
Universalist

between us at this level we have quite a few spells available (100 - 120 maybe) and their is very little we cannot do given, as is the case with all non-spontaneous, time to prepare. We have a tower, meet as a council and fight demons, travel the fey realm, fight whole covens of hags, as just a few highlight.

The only thing we have missed is healing and the only thing we can't do is grapple (chokers!!!! Not good dude not good).

Everything else (party roles wise, a pet peeve but for another forum) we have under control.

need a tank - summoner
need a thief - knock, invis

I have noticed thta we are more powerful then your average well balanced party but the DM has adapted.

If you are going to DM I suggest keeping limits on healing, foes good at grappling, SR, and not allow "resting" every 5 minutes.

Silver Crusade

As far as AP's, an all wizard group will probably get curb stomped before they got too far in without significant GM adjustment of the AP. At some point the AP assumes you have a tank, healer, or skill guy to get past an encounter. Although the wizard group might be able to blast or utility spell their way past, they are going to have a resource problem eventually.

Of course if you open your wizard campaign to any arcane based class, an AP becomes viable. Summoners and magus can tank. Alchemists, witches, and bards can heal to an extent. Alchemists and bards make great skill guys. Throw in wizards and sorcerers for blasting and battlefield control, you suddenly have a very effective group.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What you have to look at are your liabilities.

1.d6 hit dice and pratically no armor at first level.

2. No healing abilities save those that you buy.

Which means a lot of folks are going to be face planting in those early combats if you run a standard style game. You can't count on going first in every combat, which means people are going to take hits in that first round.

By the way Dale, did you start that group of yours at first level or were they prebuilt at a higher tier? There'd be some justificaton in going that route.


They should play Redhurst, Unhallowed Halls or Academy of Secrets.


I think the "tank" wizard of the group would probably be either a Necro (Life) or Trans (Enhancement) specialist Human, where you can grab both Toughness and Tribal Scars for a +9 HP bonus at level 1, along with the spare goodies that come with Tribal Scars. Probably just eat the ASF/non-prof penalties at level 1, then grab Mithril BP ASAP and have the -1 ACP trait for the elimination of the non-prof penalties. Still Spell at level 3 or 5 to negate the ASF, Mithril Buckler ASAP as well.

Remaining slots go to a Conjurer, an Illusion/Enchanter, and a spare of choice, probably a Transmuter that specializes in casting instead of fighting.


Tribal scars?


an all cleric or all paladin group would make the most sense, holy crusade and certainly the easiest.


Atarlost wrote:
DigMarx wrote:

Depending on the specialization of the individual wizards, and how the GM feels about the idea of a 10-round adventuring day, the first few levels are going to be very one-sided.

int NumWizPC
for Round(i=1, i<=NumWizPC, i++)
{
if SpellsMem >= 0
StdAct(CastSpell) = Sleep
else FullRdAct(Withdraw)
}

Not entirely. Some are going to oppose enchantment and use color spray. Some may even oppose both enchantment and illusion and use grease.

Grease is a fantastic spell if the striker or tank is waiting there on the edge to actually, you know- kill the monster. But otherwise all it does is make the foes kill you one or two rounds later. The “all wiz’ party will have to remember that battlefield control spells only “control” a battlefield, they can’t finish a battle.

But I am sorry, the wizard can’t do the healing role- which is more than just hit point recovery. (Yes, there’s a spell and the Celestial wiz can do a little HP recovery, but you also need Restoration and such)

And, they can’t do the old fashioned skill monkey trapfinder role. Fortunately, that is only critical in old school Gygaxian dungeons full of nasty traps. In PF, this role is not anywhere nears as critical, and a wiz does have enough skill points to cover many things.


Of course the ultimate single-class party for survivability, versatility, damage, healing and outright crazy battlefield control is a party of druids...

But a party of wizards can be more survivable than most players realize. At low levels it's going to be a challenge, but at low levels your wizards will be more capable with melee and ranged attacks than they will be at higher levels, you'll just have to accept some risk in having wizards in combat.

Wizards can take feats and wear armor. They just suffer penalties for doing so. But at low levels you won't be casting that many spells anyway.

I'd love to play in an all-wizard party. I have no doubt that by level 5 we'd be knocking down doors and kicking ass all over the place.

By level 9 you'd have to rewrite most encounters just to challenge us.


Thanael wrote:
Tribal scars?

Tribal Scars - Peoples of the North:
Tribal Scars

You endured the grueling coming of age rituals of your tribe or following, and proudly bear the scars that grant you the bles sings of your tribe's ancestors or totem.
Prerequisite: Member of a Mammoth Lords tribe or following.
Benefit: You gain 6 hit points. In addition, you gain another benefit, depending on which Mammoth Lords following you belong to.
Bearpelt: You gain a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves and a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
Greattusk: You gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to make bull rush or overrun maneuvers and a +2 bonus on Ride checks.
Ice Chasm: You gain a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +2 bonus on Climb checks.
Night Hunt: You gain a +2 bonus on Perception and Survival checks.
Raptorscale: Your base land speed increases by 5 feet, and you gain a +2 bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Slothjaw: You gain a +1 bonus on Will saves and a +2 bonus on Handle Animal checks.

It's kind of broken.


Wow @ Tribal Scars. That is pretty darn good.

@ Spock: Well, I figured it was probably granted that wizards at mid to high levels would be good, so my statement is more to say that I think they can work even from first level.

I admit you probably don't need a party member to handle the tank/melee role (although I do think it would be helpful in the early levels, when Summoning spells won't last long). That said, I do like the idea of a shapeshifter wizard who just buffs up and goes to town on enemies. There was a thread I was reading recently that had something to do with Wizards and Beast Shape, and that's kind of what got me thinking about this whole thing with wizards filling out the entire party and handling jobs that would normally be reserved for other classes.

Also, I was considering a void specialist, since they do have some sweet abilities, and I could see an admixture evoker being pretty useful. The reasoning for the specializations and roles I chose were something like:

Enhancement Transmuter: Main threat target and moderately nice DPS (Natural Attacks and Buffs are generally good, and he has access to both). He's also nice to have just as straightforward damage dealing - that is, if nothing any of the other wizards can throw around gets through to enemies, they can at least power through with straight damage from this guy.

Undead Necromancer: Brings lots of backup around wherever they go without the need for any summoning time, and can do major debuffs on the enemy forces (ideally, anyway). Also, lets at least one person play party face, even if the amount of skill points mean that would be feasible for any of them :P

Foresight Diviner: Mainly for the massive Initiative boost she gets, and the ability to act in the surprise round, so she can start combat off with whatever is going to most adequately help the party (debuffing enemies, buffing party, shaping battlefield, whatever). This is also why she's one of the wizards with an item bond, so she can grab a particularly useful spell if the situation requires it. Diviners are all for being prepared right? ;)

Also, I figured it would be worth having someone grab some other helpful spells through Samsaran, and the Diviner seemed the most thematically fitting for that.

Conjurer: Side note, I did consider Teleportation Subschool, just because Acid Dart is pretty lackluster. She probably should have Teleportation instead.

Anyway though, she obviously handles the summoning support in a lot of cases, but does handle blasting a bit as a secondary role, kind of mixed into her control aspect. Many of the good blasting spells being conjuration (bypassing SR) lets her use her upped DC's on those from Spell Focus for control stuff even while she does some damage (acid's lingering effects for example, or Aqueous Orb sweeping up enemies), and they also mix well with Dazing spell, in my opinion.

A lot of the party is probably less optimized than they could be though I admit (heck, they might all be best as humans). The reason for this is partly because I'm sure better minds than mine can come up with more effective ideas, but I also kind of thought it would be fun to make them fairly diverse too, hence no repeating races or specializations, differing alignments, etc., and they kind of fell into thematic roles as my pieced them together (like you said, a wizard tanking probably isn't necessary, but seemed like it would be a fun way to make one).


LazarX wrote:

What you have to look at are your liabilities.

1.d6 hit dice and pratically no armor at first level.

2. No healing abilities save those that you buy.

Which means a lot of folks are going to be face planting in those early combats if you run a standard style game. You can't count on going first in every combat, which means people are going to take hits in that first round.

By the way Dale, did you start that group of yours at first level or were they prebuilt at a higher tier? There'd be some justificaton in going that route.

We started at first!!!! It's true what you say a first level wizard is a liability more than a helpfull member of the party (how quick that changes) but luckily if you die at first level it is pretty easy to get back in the game


DrDeth wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
DigMarx wrote:

Depending on the specialization of the individual wizards, and how the GM feels about the idea of a 10-round adventuring day, the first few levels are going to be very one-sided.

int NumWizPC
for Round(i=1, i<=NumWizPC, i++)
{
if SpellsMem >= 0
StdAct(CastSpell) = Sleep
else FullRdAct(Withdraw)
}

Not entirely. Some are going to oppose enchantment and use color spray. Some may even oppose both enchantment and illusion and use grease.

Grease is a fantastic spell if the striker or tank is waiting there on the edge to actually, you know- kill the monster. But otherwise all it does is make the foes kill you one or two rounds later. The “all wiz’ party will have to remember that battlefield control spells only “control” a battlefield, they can’t finish a battle.

But I am sorry, the wizard can’t do the healing role- which is more than just hit point recovery. (Yes, there’s a spell and the Celestial wiz can do a little HP recovery, but you also need Restoration and such)

And, they can’t do the old fashioned skill monkey trapfinder role. Fortunately, that is only critical in old school Gygaxian dungeons full of nasty traps. In PF, this role is not anywhere nears as critical, and a wiz does have enough skill points to cover many things.

Color spray sets low level enemies up for coup de grace as well as sleep does and isn't in as dumpable a school.

Prior to level 3 an elven or half-orc wizard can fight about as well as a cleric or druid. Battlefield control can work at this stage and illusion's pretty dumpable as well.

Everybody having sleep isn't worth the pain of having dumped schools that don't suck when most of you could have dumped enchantment.


LazarX wrote:
For a standard campaign it's a hopeless cause. For a home campaign, a GM can make it work and appropriately challenging.

Even with a home game, it's really damned difficult. I attempted to run an all-spellcaster campaign, and picking enemies for the group to fight was a pain that I don't wish to go through again. There are so many enemies, even at low levels, that will pretty much wreck a group of equally-leveled spellcasters (with their paltry d6 hit dice and no-doubt low CON).


Harrison wrote:
LazarX wrote:
For a standard campaign it's a hopeless cause. For a home campaign, a GM can make it work and appropriately challenging.
Even with a home game, it's really damned difficult. I attempted to run an all-spellcaster campaign, and picking enemies for the group to fight was a pain that I don't wish to go through again. There are so many enemies, even at low levels, that will pretty much wreck a group of equally-leveled spellcasters (with their paltry d6 hit dice and no-doubt low CON).

Did any of the wizards in the group you are speaking of make any concession to the need to beef up con, maybe take toughness as a feat or even wear armor? Or were they just a bunch of first level, robe-wearing 6HP targets walking around?

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4

I think it's a great idea, totally viable with seasoned players, and not at all hopeless. If you start a wizards-only game online, I'm in. I'll play the melee guy if no one else wants. :b


Heh, count me in too. I'll also play a melee wizard. I've wanted to build one out for a while.

Human wizard with bonus feat in toughness and 1HP from favored class bonus, and a con of 14 = wizard with 12 HP. That should be enough to take a punch or two.

Scarab Sages

DrDeth wrote:
Grease is a fantastic spell if the striker or tank is waiting there on the edge to actually, you know- kill the monster. But otherwise all it does is make the foes kill you one or two rounds later. The “all wiz’ party will have to remember that battlefield control spells only “control” a battlefield, they can’t finish a battle.

A creature using acrobatics to move through grease becomes flat footed, making it much easier for wizards to hit with all those ranged touch attacks most get as school powers.

Quote:
But I am sorry, the wizard can’t do the healing role- which is more than just hit point recovery. (Yes, there’s a spell and the Celestial wiz can do a little HP recovery, but you also need Restoration and such)

By the time it becomes an issue, at least one wizard should be good at UMD. Use a trait to make it a class skill. Not perfect, but doable. At higher levels, summon creatures with healing abilities.

Quote:

And, they can’t do the old fashioned skill monkey trapfinder role. Fortunately, that is only critical in old school Gygaxian dungeons full of nasty traps. In PF, this role is not anywhere nears as critical, and a wiz does have enough skill points to cover many things.

Ummm...wizards certainly have the intelligence to grab lots of skill points and at least one of them should have a high dexterity for ray spells. Use a trait to make it a class skill. Several of the wizards should have traits or feats making perception a class skill.

Scarab Sages

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Heh, count me in too. I'll also play a melee wizard. I've wanted to build one out for a while.

Human wizard with bonus feat in toughness and 1HP from favored class bonus, and a con of 14 = wizard with 12 HP. That should be enough to take a punch or two.

Gnome with 14 dexterity, mage armor and shield.

21 AC and a 16 con. 23 AC fighting defensively.

Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 12

Traits: dangerously curious, eyes and ears of the city.
Feat: tough
Skills: perception 1(+9), disable device(+7), choice, choice, choice
Arcane bone: familiar of choice

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Yea, totally workable. Summoning can fill the tank role even at low levels, or at least the meatshield role. Even if you have to be a "pure wizard" and no bards, summoners, etc are available some wizard archetypes are more martial like the arcane gun although it is not PFS valid.


If I did it, I'd probably go universalist wizard just to take the most plain vanilla possible option and make it work.


At least one character should be a transmuter aiming for Eldritch Knight with battle-cleric-like stats. This is your low level and emergency tank. He may want to take his fighter level at 3.

At least one character should be focused on summoning. Probably a diviner for the initiative bonus.

At least one character should probably be a standard dazing blaster build.

At least one character should be a samsaran poaching the witch list. If you can get patron spells you can get the condition removers and if not you can still get heal. Ill Omen is nice as well. The Samsaran should go into Pathfinder Savant ASAP to UMD divine wands and scrolls and start filching important condition removers that aren't on the witch list if the patron lists are off limits.

With at least 4 wizards you can cover each other's opposed schools so nobody should be an universalist.

Action economy is less of a concern and with at least 4 wizards sharing spellbooks the cast anything ability of the divine bond gets a lot better.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4

There are dozens of combinations using only wizards or archetypes. And universalists are awesome. Any group of players could make ana amazing combination of characters. I say offer a pbp and see.

If AD wants the melee fighter, I'll play the rogue.

Scarab Sages

Tank + trap handling at level 1

Eventual spell focus would be battlefield control + summoning.

The stat block does not add the +1 to-hit/damage is both combatants are touching the ground.

Spoiler:

Telsie
Female Gnome Wizard 1
NG Small Humanoid (gnome)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +9
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 13 (+1 armor, +2 Dex, +1 size, +1 natural)
hp 13 (1d6+7)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +2; +2 bonus vs. [language-dependant], glyph, symbol or writing-related spells
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee Quarterstaff +0 (1d4-1/x2)
Special Attacks acid cloud (1d6) (6/day) (dc 13)
Spell-Like Abilities Arcane Mark (1/day), Comprehend Languages (1/day), Message (1/day), Read Magic (1/day)
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 1):
1 (2/day) Shield, Mage Armor, Grease (DC 14)
0 (at will) Haunted Fey Aspect, Ray of Frost, Detect Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12
Base Atk +0; CMB -2; CMD 10
Feats Scribe Scroll, Toughness +3
Traits Eyes and Ears of the City, Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device)
Skills Acrobatics +2 (-2 jump), Craft (weapons) +7, Disable Device +8, Fly +4, Perception +9, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +7, Stealth +6, Use Magic Device +2
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Sylvan
SQ +1 natural armor, arcane bonds (arcane familiar, armadillo), earth supremacy +2, empathic link with familiar, magical linguist, master tinker, opposition schools (air), share spells with familiar, specialized schools (earth)
Other Gear Silken ceremonial armor, Quarterstaff, Artisan's tools (Craft [weapons]), Thieves' tools, 85 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
+1 natural armor You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Acid Cloud (1d6) (6/day) (DC 13) (Su) 5'r cloud deals 1d6+0 Acid damage and sickens for 1r. Fort halves/negates.
Air Classical opposition school for: Earth

You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Air school.
Arcane Mark (Magical Linguist) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Arcane Mark once per day.
Comprehend Languages (Magical Linguist) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Comprehend Languages once per day.
Earth Supremacy +2 (Su) +2 CMD vs. bull rush, drag, reposition, trip, and overrun while touching the ground. +1 insight bonus to melee attack/damage while you and your opponent are touching the ground.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Linguist +1 effective level for [language-dependent], glyph, symbol, or writing-related spells. +2 save vs. these spells.
Master Tinker You are proficient with any weapon you have personally crafted.
Message (Magical Linguist) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Message once per day.
Read Magic (Magical Linguist) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Read Magic once per day.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.

--------------------

Arcane Familiar
Armadillo
N Tiny Magical Beast ((animal))
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+2 Dex, +2 size, +3 natural)
hp 6 (1d8)
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., burrowing (5 feet)
Melee Claw (Armadillo) -1 (1d2-3/x2)
Space 2.5 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 4, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 7 (11 vs. Trip)
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Climb +2, Disable Device +1, Fly +6, Perception +8, Spellcraft -1, Stealth +10, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +0
Languages
SQ improved evasion, natural diver, protective ball
Other Gear You have no money!
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Burrowing (5 feet) You have a Burrow speed.
Improved Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save; half on failed save.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Natural Diver (Ex) Can hold breath for up to 6 minutes.
Protective Ball (Ex) Increase natural armor to +3, but decrease speed to 0.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Of course the ultimate single-class party for survivability, versatility, damage, healing and outright crazy battlefield control is a party of druids...

But a party of wizards can be more survivable than most players realize. At low levels it's going to be a challenge, but at low levels your wizards will be more capable with melee and ranged attacks than they will be at higher levels, you'll just have to accept some risk in having wizards in combat.

Wizards can take feats and wear armor. They just suffer penalties for doing so. But at low levels you won't be casting that many spells anyway.

I'd love to play in an all-wizard party. I have no doubt that by level 5 we'd be knocking down doors and kicking ass all over the place.

By level 9 you'd have to rewrite most encounters just to challenge us.

I'm joining a game where we will be three Druids and one Summoner. It sort of worked out that way, two people wanted to play druids and one wanted to play a wizard. when the fourth player saw we were going to have two druids he thought it would be fun to play an all druid group, but the wizard player only met us halfway and changed to summoner. We're going to try RotRL.


Artanthos wrote:

Tank + trap handling at level 1

Eventual spell focus would be battlefield control + summoning.

The stat block does not add the +1 to-hit/damage is both combatants are touching the ground.

** spoiler omitted **...

Could work, depends on your DM and how he handles Perception checks vis a vis the Trap Spotter talent, and how many traps are around. Should work in most PF paths. The Earth school comes with a nice low level attack ability.

I could only come up with +8 to Perc, tho.

Lantern Lodge

I never have played with an all Wizard group but i have played in an all caster group b4 and will have to say it was fun. The party consisted of 2 sorcerers, a wizard, a cleric, and a bard. Me and the other sorcerer picked up Point Blank shot and used Ray of Frost every round and Disrupt Undead along with summon and blast spells. The wizard went elf and used a bow focusing more on crowd control. Bard was a of course our buffer and back up heals. Cleric went typical battle cleric wrought doing sword and board healing when needed to. In mid to high level play it changed a tad since the wizard started making constructs and we all were equipped with wands of some very sweet 3.5 spells like Searing Light and Negative Energy Ray. Not to mention all of us but the Bard created and summoned undead. The game sadly died out though since combat was taking way to long with the hordes of undead, summoned monsters, and constructs at our disposal.


I'm late to this party, but it seems to me an obvious way to add a little more versatility to a low-level party like this would be to let one of them be a cleric at 1st level who worships a deity that grants the Magic domain. It wouldn't be weird, for instance, to have a priest of Nethys installed at a magic academy, whether as their resident pastor or as a visiting scholar. And that character could easily multiclass toward becoming a Heirophant. Such a character could serve as a second-rate tank as well as provide access to some much-needed cleric spells.


That's not what the thread is about. I'd love to try this. I'd be a scrollmaster :P

Dark Archive

Infernal Healing being available to wizards, and the potential for a necromancer to use a commanded skeleton or zombie as a 'tank' makes an evil wizard party a halfway survivable option.

If you can use 3.X backwards-compatible stuff, the Unearthed Arcana 'Undead Minion' Necromancer Specialist option could be handy here. The specialist options for a Conjurer to have Rapid Summoning or an Enchanter to start with a Cohort also could help.

Another Unearthed Arcana wizard suggestion (in addition to the ridonkulous no-brainer 'Domain Wizard' option) would be the option on UA p. 58 to swap out your familiar for an animal companion as a druid of 1/2 your wizard level.

There's also the Wild Cohort feat on the WotC site, as yet another option for tankage.

Things open up more if other cloth casters, like Sorcerers (celestial bloodline for healing? Battle Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple? and Witches and perhaps even Alchemists, are allowed as well.


Noble Knight WBC wrote:

Been toying around with the idea of some themed campaigns... holy pilgrim journey, thief mafia style campaign, all aquatic etc...

Most of those are obviously possible if not weird due to things like alignment or water movement rules. The idea that is really the one that is hardest to gauge without actually testing, is the concept of an all wizard party.

For the sake of this idea, lets go with PFS legality for character creation (ignoring the papers needed for things like Ifrit), starting at level 1. We can also assume piazo modules such as society, adventures and adventure paths.

Providing everyone went in knowing what they were doing, and was o.k. with the concept... could someone have a functional party of all wizards for an extended time?

My biggest concerns at the moment is:

1. Blasting: the characters are just going to be mowed down or mow down the enemy in one round.

2. While wizards can fill every role in the party to limited degrees in the fighter-wizard-cleric-rouge set up... they can be lacking in certain aspects at certain levels (how do you have a tank at level 1?)

So is this a fools errand... or would the career students of a wizard academy that got destroyed, wandering around trying to figure out how to survive in the world... be a workable idea?

Wizard party vs barbarian rogues.

Ha... ha... ha.

Low level would be hilarious, medium level would be fascinating.

Liberty's Edge

I have played in an all spellcaster party. We went from 1-16 BTW this was the shortest campaign we have ever played. Yeah it was tricky in the beginning but like adamantium dragon said come about level 8 or 9 it starting getting real ugly.

Graet campaign...but it did get a little ugly come 8-9 level and when spell perfecto hits at 15 Fuh get about it!


I'd be happy to run a few encounters right here. 4 first-level PCs, PFS legal. First encounter is urban.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This would be funny, I think. My (3.5 at the time) group tried something like this once. We started at a Wizard college, and one was a typical elf conjurer, appropriately optimized, top of the class. I was a Dwarf Enchanter with 14 str/16 Con and my friend was a Half-Orc Diviner. The GM looked at our character sheets and put us in the academy's remedial class. Good times.

The first 2 levels or so might be rough. But I gotta figure it won't be long before they're seriously difficult to challenge if everybody's optimizing.

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