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With your low Cha, I'd consider Signature Deed at 11th for Parry and Riposte, since you have low panache each day. That way, the deflection AND the AoO cost no panache, since it's all part of the same deed.Signature Deed requires 11 levels of Gunslinger, which I won't have. If you look at the section on Grit and Panache in the ACG Playtest Doc, Panache counts as grit for feat qualification. So you can, in fact, take Signature Deed. You can also take Extra Grit (Panache) at a much lower level to make up for the low Charisma as well. I've been toying around with a similar idea, but using the feat in the playtest that allows the Katana to be finessable.
My only issue with the swashbuckler is how soon they get the improved critical feat. While every other class has to wait till at least level level 8 for the feat and hey look at that level 8 for buying a keen weapon they get it at level 5. That just seems wrong given how classes are balanced against each other. When does a oracle get the ability to fly? The same time a wizard gets to cast it. Same for cleric, witch, sorcerer and alchemist. Just seems unfair to have increased crit range for 3 levels. Is it unfair that a Ranger gets access to combat feats earlier, or monks? No, it's called a class feature.
I wholeheartedly, unabashedly, unequivocally disagree with you here. Fort saves are not worth precise strike, in no way shape or form. While I agree SBs need better fort saves, gimping their damage makes that good fort save completely unnecessary. And yes, SBs should be about damage AND mobility.
... and DEX to damage should replace precise strike as a Deed. Bad idea...At 6th level, I would not trade a possible +6 to DMG to almost every strike, for a maximized +6 to DMG which becomes a possible +12 on crits (which only happen 33% of the time). At Level 12, the +12 from precision strike is better than a +8 (if every resource is geared to it) with a +16 on a crit. DEX to DMG really only matters from levels 1 to 4, after that precise strike provides more consistent damage. Just my two cents
Taking dex to damage via a different route; if i take Slashing Grace than a one handed slasher becomes useable with Swashbuckler's Finese... which counts as Weapon Finese... which means the weapon is useable with Weapon Finese (for that swashbuckler anyways) so now i can get an Agile Katana RAW? IMO yes, but I would argue that it only works that way in the hands of someone trained via that feat to use it.
Since the DEX to DMG argument is not likely to resolved, I think the best option is to push for CHA to DMG instead. That concept also fits with the swashbuckler; their sheer force of presence unnerves their enemy, thus allowing the swashbuckler to make an opportune and damaging strikes.
If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.The "we're right and they're wrong" attitude that's present is exactly the reason that they simply ignore all conversations regarding dex to damage. I've always found that he who cannot set aside his own biases and open his mind to see things from another man's perspective is unlikely to have perspectives I care to look at the world from... Not to quibble, but you realize that most of the Paizo designers predate the DDN designers, right?
This might be the best way to do it.
If you look at the way the feat is worded, it allows it to be used with Swashbuckler's Finesse; therefore, you can use your DEX to attack with one slashing weapon. Not a weak feat by any means.
yes, but probably thematically more appropriate as well as reducing the desire to dump charisma. i actually want my dex/cha class to use those...What about allowing the Swashbuckler to apply their Charisma bonus to Will saves?That's been thrown around alot. Better than what we have but IMO not good enough. A good base saving throw will in the long run give you a much higher save. Make Bravery into Bravado and have it apply CHA Bonus to Will and Fortitude. Flavor works -- through sheer force of personality, swashbucklers are able to shrug off mental and physical attacks that would hamper others. Remove higher levels of Bravado or have it add a +1 every 4ish levels. Higher, but not broken saves, and adds a reason not to dump CHA. EDIT: Spelling Gremlins
Everyone seems to forget that Porthos was a brute, strength swashbuckler should be a viable buildUggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.Why is that a problem? Porthos is better represented by other classes precisely because of this. Porthos would make a very good Urban Barbarian/Raging Drunk. The thing here is that the strong brute fighter is already VERY well covered ground. The swashbuckler class does not need to cover every lightly armored swordsman from the era of early guns. Rob Roy is a good example here... skilled swordsman, no armor, probably best made as a barbarian not a swashbuckler. All three (four, actually) musketeers should be viable builds underneath the umbrella of the swashbuckler class. DEX and STR should be useable builds, because CHA is what really matters :)
Uggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.Why is that a problem? Everyone seems to forget that Porthos was a brute, strength swashbuckler should be a viable build
FTFY That is one of the most negative rpg sites ever created, I'm not sure why they play games, they seem unable to have fun.
Here are some of my more recent thoughts after play testing a level one swashbuckler last week. I needed more Panache... Exactly one more Panache. I agree with the idea for Panache to be 1+CHA with a min of zero adding one more point at 7th level. This will prevent dumping CHA below 10, and it will allow for a character with decent CHA (14) to have 3 Panache. Why 3? 3allows me to derring-do into combat, Parry an attack and then Riposte. I had no problem with refilling PAnache, crits were easy to come by at first level, but having only 2 panache left me just attacking while hoping to get a crit. Because of the way panache is written, unless I take a now mandatory extra panache feat or pour all of my ability upgrades into CHA, this low number of Panache points will become problematic later when I have more choices. On to parry, tried it twice, never succeeded, may have been unlucky dice rolls, but the cost of parry/riposte is too height. I still recommend that Parry costs a panache, and riposte costs an AoO, unless Combat Expertise is given for free at 2nd level (move SB Finesse to first in this case) I had a hard time hitting without DEX to attack. SB finesse needs to move to 1st level. Leave the weapon selection as is, but allow it to count as weapon finesse for the purposes of other feats. I did not have a problem making my will or fort saves, lucky dice rolls, but there were tense dramatic moments when I made those rolls. The drama added to the feel of playing a SB, but this class will be hurting for Will later on. Rethink adding CHA to Will at some point, remove Bravery and call it Bravado to do this. DEX to damage, yes, please, and all that. At some point, possibly at fourth level, add this as an optional feat for the SB. Make it a fighter only feat if necessary. Don't make it a automatic feat, because strength based SBs need to be viable, I'm looking at you Porthos :) Those are my thoughts for now based off one first level playtest
My thought is that neither Rogues nor Fighters have Grit/Panache. The gunslinger part of the hybrid provides the mechanics for Grit/Panache which has a decidedly swashing feel to it. I agree that some mobility items are needed, but at what expense? Which trait already there would you remove? I think the +6 to a skill check from Derring-Do is supposed to emulate this, but a better solution may be to allow an mid-move attack, at the cost of 1 Panache.
I can imagine a pretty kick-butt Dwarven Swashbuckler swinging a morningstar :]
I agree with whips, but they already have proficiency in Morningstar (B & P) which works pretty well to take out skeletons.
The class you are comparing this fighter to is not what the swashbuckler is. The class that exists does less than a fighter does. It does not have any abilities it needs to "pay for" with a lower damage output, with the possible exception of certain deeds (which the fighter can replicate easily with their extra feats), and any time they use those, they do pay for them with reduced damage, because they are spending panache on something other than the damage boost that almost brings them to a fighter's level. The extra skill points aren't even an edge, because they have more demands on their stats. The fighter could easily dump dex, cha, or even con relative to the swashbuckler and make up for the gap with more int. A swashbuckler is both the Dread Pirate and Inigo, along with Athos, Porthos, Aramis, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Robin Hood, Zorro, Jack Sparrow, Cyrano de Bergerac, John Carter, etc... All of them similar but different, but that is the spirit of the class :)
Since a swashbuckler is a fighter/gunslinger hybrid, both d10 classes the damage should equal the fighter. If you want a fighter with more skill points play a lore warden :)
Ranger is better than fighter? I'll need to see some proof of that old canard That, and the Inquisitor is a divine bard, not a ranger/cleric hybrid
Fighter gets better armor and has a wider variety of weapons with which to cause this damage. I see no problem with this.
For the crits with bonus at half, at that same level(12), I would have a +6 on damage with a chance to get +12 on every three hits. So for three hits with one critical, +24 damage total, while with normal progression, 3 hits would be +36.Your math is a little off, there. Three attacks with full level to damage is +36 damage, yes... but three attacks with half level to damage and a crit every third attack is only +24 damage, not +36. That's +6 on the first attack, +6 on the second attack, and +12 (+6 doubled) on the third attack. Thanks, I was in the process of fixing it :]
Agreed. I've already mentioned that it should be +1 damage every 2 SB levels, but that this bonus damage will multiply on a crit (just like every other flat damage bonus in the game, including skill-based ones like specialisation and weapon training).The thing is that +1 damage per level more than makes up for the 1.5 Str and 3:1 Power Attack (3:1 Power Attack gives an advantage at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, so you would need to have a build that ends at 66 Strength for 1.5x Strength to counter the remaining bonus). I'd keep the +1 every level over getting DEX damage or multiplying it on a critical hit at a rate of +1 per 2 levels. Math...Dex will top out at +6 with 22 DEX, which is achievable on a normal build by level 12. You might crit more than 30% of the time with a higher DEX but your damage over three hits would be +24. At that level with normal progression, you would have +12 on damage on every hit on any target that can be hit with Sneak Attack (most) giving +36 over those three hits. For the crits with bonus at half, at that same level(12), I would have a +6 on damage with a chance to get +12 on every three hits. So for three hits with one critical, +24 damage total, while with normal progression, 3 hits would be +36. Both of these fixes give worse damage to the DB Just my two cents... EDIT: Fixed Math
So, looking at the non-combat social capability of the Swashbuckler, it appears to have slightly less ability in social situations than the Aristocrat. Since the Swashbuckler doesn't get any class abilities to help with other non-combat situations and only gets 4 skill points per level, it really looks like a strong NPC class. You can build a good killer with this, but they are going to be pretty much limited to that role and won't have many options for solving problems outside of combat. Yes, but a decent CHA will more than make up for this. 6 skill points would help, but their set of skills is pretty good.
Not good for a class that should be minimizing strength. Since only 25-30%ish attacks will crit, you've effectivly worsened the damage output.
I'm not sure if it's been addressed, and if it already has been, doesn't matter I want to address it again. All of the features and deeds being based on only light or one-handed piercing weapons is kinda dumb. It means that some swashbuckler-y weapons get left out, like dueling swords, or whips. The list of light and one-handed piercing weapons also include short spears, tridents, and morning stars. Morning stars guys. The list of weapons a Swashbuckler can use with their features should be set to very specific weapons. The morningstar came in very handy while fighting skeletons. I can also see a dwarf swashbuckler using that weapon. +1 on whips being added
The cost of one Panache for a exploding d6 to Acrobatics is appropriate. I pulled off a pretty risky Acrobatics roll because of this the other day at level 1. If it was always on, then it would more diffilcult. A better fix might be increasing Panache to 1 + CHA Mod.
Agree
Agree here as well, either that or gove Combat Expertise for free
I totally agree with you Malachi; I made that ability in a previous post, calling it With Style, Charisma Bonus to Saves, but I did Charisma Bonus to HP instead of AC (kinda like a free Toughness Feat, using Luck and maneuvering as your HP bonus instead of pure toughness), both capped by class level. =) Bravado would be a better name :]
The fix is to make parry only waste an AoO as long as you have a Panache available. If you succeed than you spend the panache to riposte. This would go along way to solve the problem of the swashbuckler having a low AC as the game progresses.
As of now, the Swashbuckler looks like a fun alternate fighter with potential to deal a good amount of damage, but it'd seem like an underwhelming choice around 10-12th level. You mean when he's hitting a crit with Nat 15+ for 2d6+10+STR+WT damage? Or burning a panache to possibly get 2d6+26ish? It's not bad...
While I agree about the Rogue being the odd one out in terms of trapfinding, I don't think Swashbucklers have much to do with traps, in terms of flavour. A swashbuckler with a gun might shoot a lock off a chest, but I'm not sure if the concept favours a careful, safe-cracking approach. I agree, no to traps
I am running a lvl 1 Swashbuckler tonight, so'll I'll provide more feedback tomorrow. My initial thoughts are as follows: 1) While Deeds and Panache are good 1st level abilities, something else needs to be given. I would add Combat Expertise instead of moving Weapon Finesse to 1st. This would help reduce some of the MADness of the Swashbuckler, while opening up the Combat Maneuver Feats. 2) These both deal with Precise Strike a) I like the idea of adding level to damage, especially since Strength will be at premium to add damage, but it needs to not be precision damage. Basically allow it to damage anything that can be critted. b) Allow the use of a buckler or dagger in the off-hand. This will allow a Swashbuckler to utilize two weapon fighting or improve their already weaker AC. If you need to restrict the Precise Strike to the main hand, that's ok. 3) Parry and Riposte - I love this concept, but make the Parry cost an AoO as long as the SB has at least one Panache, and then the Riposte cost one Panache as long as they still have an AoO left. That way, they have a choice to Parry and/or Riposte not completely destroy their reserve of Panache. Those are my initial thoughts, I will let you know how my playtest goes tonight. -- Sir Frog
If I remember correctly, the staff said that many of their hybrid classes are based on a successful archetype along with the two classes being combined.Not so much "successful" archetypes as archetypes that needed another look. Maybe because thye realized that you cannot simply retool the archetype to properly fill that niche but have to build it differently. Just thinking out loud.
From Jason Buhlman Up to this point, we have announced the [#1] arcanist (a mix of sorcerer and wizard), the [#2] bloodrager (a mix of barbarian and sorcerer), the [#3] hunter (a mix of druid and ranger), the [#4] investigator (a mix of alchemist and rogue), the [#5] shaman (a combination of oracle and witch), the [#6] slayer (a blending of ranger and rogue), the [#7] swashbuckler (a mix of gunslinger and fighter), and the [#8] warpriest (mixing the cleric and fighter). But you knew about those already. Here are the last two. [#9] Brawler: This class blends the fighter and the monk, creating a warrior whose sole focus is unarmed combat and martial maneuvers, without any of the mysticism of the monk. This class is designed specifically to beat up monsters, with a full base attack bonus progression (like a fighter) and improved unarmed strike damage (like a monk). To top it off, the class is also very skilled at making combat maneuvers. [#10] Skald: Taking parts of the bard and the barbarian, this class can rage and inspire rage in its allies (we initially called it the “bard-barian” in-house). Instead of inspiring speeches and words of encouragement, the skald incites fury and anger in his allies, allowing them all to go on a murderous rampage.
Prove to me that global warming is man-made...not that it doesn't exist, but that man is actually causing it to happen and that we can stop it from happening without wasting an inordinate amount of resources that could be better spent coming up with solutions to cope with the problem. At that point I will entertain a serious effort to have laws passed. Better yet, convince companies they can make a buck at it and leave the government out entirely.
Just went on Barnes and Noble website, and they have the book for $38.54 plus tax, and they expect it to arrive on the 31st of this month! This is why I love bookstores like B&N, and cried the the closure of Borders. Bookstores for the common people are awesome! :) If B&N will have it by the 31st, so will Amazon. It's not like they have different sources for the book. While I miss Borders, I wish Barnes and Noble would follow in their fate.
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