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Ahoy!

Leaving aside Ultimate Intruige.... I've been thinking about this one for a while and I have to say I like the feel of it.

I do think though in order to get it to work, an archetype wouldnt be enough - it would have to be a distinct class IMO.

Whether it would have to tow the line and go CHA casting like the Oracle and Sorceror is also open to debate....

How about.... Elemental Soul ???

TBH...I'm not sure if there has ever been an official ruling on this

Tired old record that I am...

Yet another dismal attempt at a cleric archetype with the Cardinal.

And yes the name is pretty weird too.....

This is the final, final version! I've reinstated the x-bow option and tweaked 'Forbidden Lore' - I felt that as this was the bit that had most of the plus for the class in terms of ability, being 2 levels behind in terms of spell level was a bit weak....

Dark Apostle
Some clerics are willing to tamper with their own sanity, in order to be elevated in the sight of the masters of the Dark Tapestry and gain terrible new powers. A Dark Apostle is a high priest of a Great Old One or Outer God, fervently dedicated to granting their masters access to the material world.

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier. This alters the cleric's class skills.

Weapon and armour proficiency
A Dark Apostle is proficient with the club, dagger, quarterstaff, light crossbow and with light armour, but he's not proficient with any type of shield. This replaces the cleric's weapon and armour proficiencies.

Zealot
A dark apostle is fanatical in his worship. Their innate affinity with the abyss and the powers within disrupts aspects of their divine power and as such they completely lose the ability to channel energy. This ability may not be regained through alternate means.

Restricted Domain
Irrespective of which deity they worship, one of their domains must always be Void, even if that particular deity does not offer it as a choice. Any of the Void subdomains can be selected as part of this restriction. This ability alters the normal domain ability.

Spontaneous casting and summoning
A Dark Apostle cannot spontaneously cast curing/inflicting spells. Instead they can spontaneously cast Summon Monster spells but only to summon creatures of the Aberration type. They may not summon creatures of any other type. They may communicate perfectly via telepathy with any summoned monster and the creature obeys commands exactly as requested for the duration of the spell.

According to the spell level, the following creatures may be summoned:

I: Akata, Dossensus, Bogwiggle
II: Fleshdreg, Reefclaw, Goblin Snake, Choker, Sinspawn
III: Fleshdreg Swarm, Ghelarn, Shadowgarm, Chon Chon, Ettercap, Vampiric Mist
IV: Fleshwarp (Grothlut), Gibbering Mouther, Mimic, Blightspawn, Cloaker
V: Capramace, Fleshwarp (Drider), Lurker Above, Dark Naga, Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing
VI: Bee Man of Bellis, Emkrah, Spawning Canker, Trench Mist, Spawn of Yog-Sothoth
VII: Argorth, Moon Beast, Royal Naga, Siyokoy, Gug
VIII: Irlgaunt, Living Rune, Azruverda, Dark Young of Shub-Niggurath, Ghorazagh,
IX: Yah-Thelgaad, Neothelid, Targotha, Hyakume, The Mouldering Emperor

Forbidden lore
Through their occult readings a Dark Apostle comes across many terrible and ancient incantations and rituals that would be considered heretical for followers of other gods. This knowledge enables access to spells otherwise unavailable. The cleric at 1st, and then at every odd level till 17th receives a bonus spell from 1st to 9th level. A Dark Apostle may select these spells from any other divine source. These may be prepared in their normal spell slots. Once made, the choice cannot be changed.

Enlighten the Unbeliever
The ability may be used 1/day at 6th level. A single target within close range may be shown what is behind the skin of reality. The cleric points at his enemy, utters a stream of unnatural, incomprehensible words and exposes them to the emptiness of the abyss. The target must make a DC Fort save equal to 10 + 1/2 cleric level + wisdom modifier. A failed save means the target is paralyzed with fear for D6+1 rounds. If the save is passed, the target is merely frightened for D4+1 rounds. This ability is a supernatural, fear based effect.

Gifts of the Chosen
Knowledge of what lies behind the curtain of the Dark Tapestry is enough to challenge the lucidity of even the most stalwart believer. Madness and insanity are frequently the rewards for service. A Dark Apostle, however, believes these to be gifts given only to the chosen and a sign of high regard. Every time the cleric prepares his spells, he is afflicted by a minor madness. This type is determined each time by rolling a D6:

1-2: Distracted - the character sees shapes and darting movements in the peripherals of his vision that can cause him to lose focus. He receives a -2 penalty to sense motive, perception, perform, diplomacy, intimidate and bluff skills. However, once per day through bizarre means he can see danger where others do not and may be considered as having rolled a natural 20 for a single initiative check.

5-6: Voices - the character hears voices in his mind from behind the curtain of reality, feeding him garbled information. He receives a -2 penalty to all knowledge checks. However, once per day he has a moment of sheer genius and can apply a single metamagic feat of his choice to a spell.

In addition, whenever the Dark Apostle casts a Void domain or summon monster spell he must see if a higher form of madness affects him. The effects stack with a minor madness, however, they can only be affected by one of these higher forms at a time. The form is dependant on the cleric’s level and the effects applicable for the next 24 hours. Unless stated, once afflicted, the cleric may not have the condition removed by any means. A GM must declare at the start of their turn whether a condition is in effect.

3rd level: Mania (Will DC 12) .The character knows what lurks in the abyss and cannot help being fascinated by it.

Duration: D6 rounds - these do not have to be consecutive and can be chosen by the GM.

it gives up spontaneous cures, a Domain, medium armor, and goes to 1/2 BAB. In exchange it gets class skills and 6 skill points per level instead of 2.

Sounds very workable for an offensive caster Cleric.

Obviously I will have to wait till the 30th to get my PDF and see the full picture but...

I see absolutely nothing in any of the Cardinal descriptions that would make it a "better caster"!

In every single D6 cleric homebrew I've seen they get more spells not less in exchange for everything they give up!!!

6 skill points/lvl solves very little in that respect.

DOH! I thought they had released the PDF early.... its still only available from the 30th right?

I'm obviously missing something... having trouble accessing the PDF download page

For a more "caster cleric" it seems like an unmitigated disaster!

Can anyone give me the Cardinal lowdown?

Can someone give me a summary of the Cardinal archetype please?

Getting a couple spells from the druid list doesn't make it a druid caster. The Oracle is a spontaneous cleric caster, not a druid one. It is not the same thing.

You misunderstood what I meant!

A spontaneous druid could (and probably should) almost be made into a new class... an archetype wouldnt do it justice.

A bit disappointed not to get the spontaneous druid... something fey based would indeed be thematically appropriate.

I guess the prob was that you couldnt adopt a chop-shop approach to the archetype... since the concept is almost worthy of a class itself a la the Oracle.

Pretty cool. I would definitely play one.

However, I don't think you should inflict the frightened condition on a save. Losing control of your character for 4 rounds when you make the save? Not cool. Should be staggered or shaken.

Good to hear!... What I find very disappointing is that without any self-bias or arrogance, I think the archetype is more interesting and worthwhile playing than ANY current cleric archetype. I think it has a real sense of divine flavour.... you look at it and say "Now that cleric is serious about his worship!!"

I think you always have to look at the bigger picture with these things:

1) Its only 1/day and short range and to 1 target.

2) Dont focus on the individual ability too much but see whether it fits in with the overall power balance of the class - IMO it does easily.

3) Frightened isnt that bad....you do not "lose control" of your character in any way.... you just have to attempt to flee. In doing so you might well have to fight or cast spells... etc

4) The duration averages at 3-4 rounds... hardly encounter ending.

5) The PC is supposed to be a high servant of the abyss, he absolutely should have something along these lines. Think about it from a RP perspective - you are exposing the mortal brain to something indescribably wrong and alien.... even if you manage to stop your brain from overloading being staggered or shaken is a bit too tame.

6) Certain creatures are immune to fear based effects

7) Look at the Void Wizard's special abilities in comparison.... I think I have been very conservative!

8) I was very close when tweaking things to upping the useage to 2/day at 12th...even with that I think the power balance would still be absolutely fine.

I always look very carefully at balance when I'm designing archetypes and I genuinely think I have been quite conservative with the Dark Apostle all things considered. There are v.few (if any) archetypes that I'm aware of that could potentially suffer the level of hindrance that mine could on a daily basis.

Ps I'm working on another cleric archetype... "The Reaper"

Cheers... its been fun putting it together.

I deleted the crossbow option as I was really trying to strip the martial aspect to the bones and keep things low tech.... but maybe something like a sling.

Here is the final version... as always tell us what you think!

Dark Apostle
Some clerics are willing to tamper with their own sanity, in order to be elevated in the sight of the masters of the Dark Tapestry and gain terrible new powers. A Dark Apostle is a high priest of a Great Old One or Outer God, fervently dedicated to granting their masters access to the material world.

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier. This alters the cleric's class skills.

Weapon and armour proficiency
A Dark Apostle is proficient with the club, dagger and quarterstaff, and with light armour, but he's not proficient with any type of shield. This replaces the cleric's weapon and armour proficiencies.

Zealot
A dark apostle is fanatical in his worship. Their innate affinity with the abyss and the powers within disrupts aspects of their divine power and as such they completely lose the ability to channel energy. This ability may not be regained through alternate means.

Restricted Domain
Irrespective of which deity they worship, one of their domains must always be Void, even if that particular deity does not offer it as a choice. Any of the Void subdomains can be selected as part of this restriction. This ability alters the normal domain ability.

Spontaneous casting and summoning
A Dark Apostle cannot spontaneously cast curing/inflicting spells. Instead they can spontaneously cast Summon Monster spells but only to summon creatures of the Aberration type. They may not summon creatures of any other type. They may communicate perfectly via telepathy with any summoned monster and the creature obeys commands exactly as requested for the duration of the spell.

According to the spell level, the following creatures may be summoned:

I: Akata, Dossensus, Bogwiggle
II: Fleshdreg, Reefclaw, Goblin Snake, Choker, Sinspawn
III: Fleshdreg Swarm, Ghelarn, Shadowgarm, Chon Chon, Ettercap, Vampiric Mist
IV: Fleshwarp (Grothlut), Gibbering Mouther, Mimic, Blightspawn, Cloaker
V: Capramace, Fleshwarp (Drider), Lurker Above, Dark Naga, Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing
VI: Bee Man of Bellis, Emkrah, Spawning Canker, Trench Mist, Spawn of Yog-Sothoth
VII: Argorth, Moon Beast, Royal Naga, Siyokoy, Gug
VIII: Irlgaunt, Living Rune, Azruverda, Dark Young of Shub-Niggurath, Ghorazagh,
IX: Yah-Thelgaad, Neothelid, Targotha, Hyakume, The Mouldering Emperor

Forbidden lore
Through their occult readings a Dark Apostle comes across many terrible and ancient incantations and rituals that would be considered heretical for followers of other gods. This knowledge enables access to spells otherwise unavailable. The cleric gets a bonus cantrip at 1st, and at every odd level from 3rd to 19th a bonus spell from 1st to 9th level. A Dark Apostle may select these spells from any other divine spell list. These may be prepared in their normal spell slots. Once made, the choice cannot be changed.

Enlighten the Unbeliever
The ability may be used 1/day at 6th level. A single target within close range may be shown what is behind the skin of reality. The cleric points at his enemy, utters a stream of unnatural, incomprehensible words and exposes them to the emptiness of the abyss. The target must make a DC Fort save equal to 10 + 1/2 cleric level + wisdom modifier. A failed save means the target is paralyzed with fear for D6+1 rounds. If the save is passed, the target is merely frightened for D4+1 rounds. This ability is a supernatural, fear based effect.

Gifts of the Chosen
Knowledge of what lies behind the curtain of the Dark Tapestry is enough to challenge the lucidity of even the most stalwart believer. Madness and insanity are frequently the rewards for service. A Dark Apostle, however, believes these to be gifts given only to the chosen and a sign of high regard. Every time the cleric prepares his spells, he is afflicted by a minor madness. This type is determined each time by rolling a D6:

1-2: Distracted - the character sees shapes and darting movements in the peripherals of his vision that can cause him to lose focus. He receives a -2 penalty to sense motive, perception, perform, diplomacy, intimidate and bluff skills. However, once per day through bizarre means he can see danger where others do not and may be considered as having rolled a natural 20 for a single initiative check.

5-6: Voices - the character hears voices in his mind from behind the curtain of reality, feeding him garbled information. He receives a -2 penalty to all knowledge checks. However, once per day he has a moment of sheer genius and can apply a single metamagic feat of his choice to a spell.

In addition, whenever the Dark Apostle casts a Void domain or summon monster spell he must see if a higher form of madness affects him. The effects stack with a minor madness, however, they can only be affected by one of these higher forms at a time. The form is dependant on the cleric’s level and the effects applicable for the next 24 hours. Unless stated, once afflicted, the cleric may not have the condition removed by any means. A GM must declare at the start of their turn whether a condition is in effect.

3rd level: Mania (Will DC 12).The character knows what lurks in the abyss and cannot help being fascinated by it.

Duration: D6 rounds - these do not have to be consecutive and can be chosen by the GM.

The Vermin domain thing is a mistake - AON gives the correct info!

My gut tells me to prepare for another disappointing cleric archetype regarding the Cardinal from Ultimate Intruige......

Spontaneous CHA Druid sounds like it should be good though.... should have maybe made it into a separate class?

I think that with the books two weeks away, any suggestions as to changing its content are way too late.

I wasnt suggesting last minute changes merely expressing hopes and fears!!

Hi Mark

I always love to see a new cleric archetype (especially if its clothy!)..... but the description for this one has me concerned:

"Cardinal (a politics-heavy cleric with 6 skill points per level)"

This description combined with the book subject matter obviously strikes me as an archetype with a heavy emphasis on skill points, skill ranks, discussion and debate.... not at all IMO the areas where the cleric needs help/directing. Hope I’m mistaken and not jumping the gun (apologies if I am)!

As demo'd by the Herald Caller - 4 pts/level is absolutely fine when it is allied to abilities that provide a useful impact in other areas. Conversely, the Cloistered Cleric is an excellent example of emphasis in an unnecessary area combined with neglect in others.

I’ve always felt that too many cleric archetypes don’t provide a really different ‘flavour’ or the concept is great but the execution is lacking.

Hope you understand where I’m coming from! Really looking forward to seeing the Vigilante in its full Batman glory!! ;))

It's a great archetype...

Take 1 monk level, and guided hand and crusader flurry feats.
Flurry a great axe, using wis to hit.
With power attack , that was 5 feats.
Rest are meta feats.

Take main as fire and healing, alter healing spells to gory domain.
Fire balls, super heals (or animal companion instead). Great casting dc and great to hit...

The archetype is designed (albeit poorly) as more caster...

The dip makes it worse at this and compensates by making it a sub-optimal low AC fighter that has expended 5 feats in the process! You have to remember the cleric is feat starved!

WIS to AC helps avoid damage at low levels but not a lot once you get to 8-9th onwards, especially if you're trying to hit things on a regular basis like this build indicates. Even a basic chain shirt gets you +6AC.

Battle clerics are a sub-par choice at the best of times let alone when you're as squishy as an Eccl!

Its just not worth it. If you really want to play the archetype accept that you are gonna be uber-hitable in melee. Save your cash, feats/traits and action economy for stuff to improve your casting. Things like Magic Vestment are OK but using up slots and action economy for Prot Evil type stuff is just a waste IMO.

I would almost go as far to say unless you have access to Mirror Image then dont play the archetype....

Nope.... the only way is a 1 lvl dip and IMO its just not worth it.

The archetype only works if you're willing to pretty much compromise everything else....incredibly niche. My 2 cents....90% of time, its just not that good.

Hi!

This looks like a fun archetype.

Thanks... that was one of the prime factors behind the design! I do feel these days that archetype design has fallen flat.

Too much...."Replace A with B and C with D - done."

I like archetypes with personality!

What I would do is create a list of aberrations that can be summoned. You know 3 of these at 1st level, plus 1 per rank in Knowledge (dungeoneering). That should limit "summoners freeze" at the table.

Sounds good although if the PC builds up their Knowledge ranks wouldnt that necessitate a huge summon list?

For Forbidden lore, I would grant a bonus cantrip/orison at 1st, and 1st-9th spells at odd levels 3-19. This would replace Channel Energy.

Yup sounds good.... was tempted to make the spell choice from any divine source (a nod to the 3.5 Archivist!) instead of from any domain/subdomain... a slight improvement... dont know whether its enough to upset the balance though? Thought the idea might be more thematically appropriate?

For Gift of the Chosen, I would maybe give a minor (constant) madness when spells are prepared, and then require a Saving Throw whenever a Void spell or Summon Monster spell is cast, with a failed save resulting in worse madness for 1d6 rounds.

Interesting... so the Dark Apostle would constantly be afflicted by a low level madness? Maybe rolled from a choice of 3 via D6 everyday? Would have to be fairly party friendly to make it viable.

So they would potentially be making multiple saves/day and the madness would be level based as above? If that is the case some form of balancing in terms of slight improvement to Forbidden Lore (as suggested above) would be fair I think. Either that or improved use of Enlighten the Believer eg) 2/day at 12th or Panicked instead of frightened??

Cheers for the feedback!

That's correct. Also if you take quick channel you can channel as a move action:

IMO probably better to have Channel smite + Guided hand + conductive weapon

This now opens things up to more caster cleric types who have dumped STR but need a Plan B.

With a decent damage dealing favoured weapon or one that has decent reach, things could get very interesting!

WIS to hit... Weapon damage + channel damage + domain ability :))

The key is the 2 feat cost so the domain ability has to be good to make it worthwhile.

It doesn't really say one way or the other, but I doubt a DM would allow more then one effect at once because it would be pretty over powered. The only thing that might somewhat speak to that question is that you can only use it once per round.

In that case channel smite + conductive weapon > channel ray + conductive weapon

It says specifically for channel smite that it is a swift action through any melee weapon, leaving you room for a domain power on top (ie the 1/round).

Can conductive weapon utilise more than 1 ability in the same round...eg a channel and a domain power?

Conductive weapon cant be used like Channel Smite since channels dont rely on melee or range touch to hit.

that's why the exploiter wizard is so awesome. Getting the exploits and the faster spell progression.

Unnecessary, OP and unthematic archetype.... was designed purely to stop the wizard crying about the arcanist.

Shaman as well.... poorly designed, thought out and ultimately OP. If they insisted on making it a hybrid class it should have been druid/witch. But to be honest the idea was perfectly set up for a spontaneous druid type base class.

A cleric played as a healer is a complete and utter waste..... wands of CLW all round make a far better option

I'm hoping for some much needed cleric love.... possibly in the form of a new archetype ;))

Shameless plug for my own bit of Lovecraft (latest tweak at the bottom).... Dark Apostle

"To sleep perchance to dream...."

Tweaked and clarified in a couple of places.....

Dark Apostle

Some clerics are willing to tamper with their own sanity, in order to be elevated in the sight of the masters of the Dark Tapestry and gain terrible new powers. A Dark Apostle is a high priest of a Great Old One or Outer God, fervently dedicated to granting their masters access to the material world.

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier. This alters the cleric's class skills.

Weapon and armour proficiency
A Dark Apostle is proficient with the club, dagger, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, and with light armour, but he's not proficient with any type of shield. This replaces the cleric's weapon and armour proficiencies.

Zealot
A dark apostle is fanatical in his worship. Their innate affinity with the abyss and the powers within disrupts aspects of their divine power and as such they completely lose the ability to channel energy. This ability may not be regained through alternate means.

Restricted Domain
Irrespective of which deity they worship, one of their domains must always be Void, even if that particular deity does not offer it as a choice. Any of the Void subdomains can be selected as part of this restriction. This ability alters the normal domain ability.

Spontaneous casting and summoning
A Dark Apostle cannot spontaneously cast curing/inflicting spells. Instead they can spontaneously cast Summon Monster spells but only to summon creatures of the Aberration type. They may not summon creatures of any other type. They may communicate perfectly via telepathy with any summoned monster and the creature obeys commands exactly as requested for the duration of the spell.

According to the spell level, the following creatures may be summoned:
I:
II:
III:
IV:
V:
VI:
VII:
VIII:
IX:

Forbidden lore
Through their occult readings a Dark Apostle comes across many terrible and ancient incantations and rituals that would be considered heretical for followers of other gods. This knowledge enables access to spells otherwise unavailable. At 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th level a Dark Apostle may select a single spell from any other domain/subdomain of a level that they can cast. These may be prepared in their normal spell slots. Once made, the choice cannot be changed.

Enlighten the Unbeliever
The ability may be used 1/day at 6th level. A single target within close range may be shown what is behind the skin of reality. The cleric points at his enemy, utters a stream of unnatural, incomprehensible words and exposes them to the emptiness of the abyss. The target must make a DC Fort save equal to 10 + 1/2 cleric level + wisdom modifier. A failed save means the target is paralyzed with fear for D6+1 rounds. If the save is passed, the target is merely frightened for D4+1 rounds. This ability is a supernatural, fear based effect.

Gift of the Chosen
Knowledge of what lies behind the curtain of the Dark Tapestry is enough to challenge the lucidity of even the most stalwart believer. Madness and insanity are frequently the rewards for service. A Dark Apostle, however, believes these to be gifts given only to the chosen and a sign of high regard. Every time the cleric prepares his spells, he must test to see if he is afflicted by a form of madness. The form is dependant on the cleric’s level and the effects applicable for the next 24 hours. Unless stated, once afflicted, the cleric may not have the condition removed by any means. A GM must declare at the start of their turn whether a condition is in effect.

3rd level: Mania (Will DC 12).The character knows what lurks in the abyss and cannot help being fascinated by it.

Duration: D6+1 rounds - these do not have to be consecutive and can be chosen by the GM.

"And the winner of the Paizo 2016 'Most Pretentious Thread' award goes to......."

The issue is that a Battle Cleric ends up spending all of its time, money, skills, feats... etc on becoming a second rate warrior at the expense of its best quality.... 9th level casting!

The Warpriest is set up from the outset to gain synergy between its fighting ability and its spell list.... when a cleric tries this it falls short - so much investment. Battle Oracles also do a better job.

Once a cleric gains 4th level spells, THAT should be the priority, not attempting to hit things like a 2nd rate warrior!!!

If you REALLY want to hit things.... play a warrior!

Oracles and clerics don't fill the same role at all. It's extremely difficult to fill the actual healer role with an oracle. It can be done with lots pages of spell knowledge, but the cleric list is just not structured for classes that only get a few spells. HP healing is mostly you doing the job of a few first level wands. Or enabling sloppy high risk play by the rest of your group. Every few days an in combat heal might be useful and a little insurance is nice, but only insuring against HP is not worth a party slot. Even the full insurance clerics can offer wouldn't really worth a party slot if clerics weren't also capable of being effective combatants at the same time.

The lack of an aura for sacred summons and the large number of not very different summon monster spells to learn pretty much rule out the oracle for the other major cleric role.

The lack of fortitude hurts oracles as front liners. It's not terribly healthy for bad touch builds either. They can melee when not fighting something with a touch fort save effect, but they're going to need something to do to stay away from poisoners, energy drainers, and the like. Battle oracles aren't nonfunctional -- weak fortitude doesn't keep bards out of the front line -- but it's better to not have a weakness than to have it and I would recommend battle clerics over battle oracles even if they're a little weaker in the hurting things department.

What oracles are good for is being a theme sorcerer with more durability. If you like pattern spells you play a heavens oracle. Accept no substitutes. If you like fire a flame oracle will perform nearly as well as a sorcerer, better in some ways, and have armor and more HP. If they got scorching ray instead of resist energy I'd say they were just better. A number of mysteries are provide the same sort of sorcerer-like play.

Oooooohh no..... Battle Oracle over Battle Cleric everytime. Warpriest made the Battle Cleric redundant overnight.

Herald Caller would typically be a control build, not a support build.

Ahh my mistake.... by support you specifically mean "buff".

In which case I would be sorely tempted by the Varisian Pilgrim

Evangelist cleric is quite possible the most powerful support build out that, and reach cleric build works great with them.

I would disagree.... Herald Caller trumps it.

Its specialist vs generalist.....theres not a lot in it.

IMO where the cleric nudges ahead is that even if you choose to specialise with your cleric, you can still operate as a generalist in a Plan B situation. Oracle cant do this although they will be of course better in the specialised role.

IMO if you have a strong battle focus then you would be much better off with a Warpriest. If however you are primarily support then cleric is a much better bet.

I think the days of 'Battle Clerics' are over. As you level up trying to hit things productively with a physical weapon becomes increasingly inefficient.

Moving to CHA from WIS for a cleric is a heavy nerf IMO.....but then if its for RP reasons why not!!

There a couple of benefits from CHA as the casting stat but the heavy loss to the most important save and things like Perception and Sense Motive (both useful skills) overdoes it IMO.

Gift of the Chosen is still problematic. Can the GM activate Madness any time? Before a roll made by a player? After a roll? Because leaving it vague and having people fight each other over whether the GM could apply the -4 to Will before a save against dominate person or after the dice are rolled can kill game tables.

I would say the GM has to state at the start of his turn that he is activating the effect. Will tweak.

Are these effects mind-affecting? How does it interact with anything that makes you immune to mind-adffecting effects? Is it Su, Ex or SLA? Can it be dispelled?

I'm pretty much looking for them to be impossible to shake off. Will tweak.

Bonus question: Android Dark Apostle?

Yes - Gift of the Chosen is divine in nature and is imparted on them by their deity in the form of a test of their sanity.

Tricky Bonus Question: Dark Apostle with 1 level of Spiritualist, can he or she shunt the madness into the phantom?

No

Why is the Mania effect inconsistent with the fascinating condition RAW? Is it intentional?

Intentional - the effect RAW was a bit too easy to shake off, this version is slightly harder.

Considering that 99% of such Clerics will be CE from the get go, the Psychosis is actually the least problematic of all madness types.

Completely disagree - worshippers of Great Old Ones/Outer Gods can be everything from CG going through all the shades of neutrality to CE.This character is for people who are into their roleplay not just their roll play Also in this case having psychosis is worse than 'just being CE' since you also completely lose control of your character to the GM.

In any case, why not use the existing rules for insanity types and make them last 24h instead of having GM making arbitrary decisions as to when do they trigger? From my experience there are two kinds of GMs: those who will forget about the effect altogether, and those who will go out their way to make sure it's a PITA for everyone at the table.

24 hour effects?!?!... No way.... it would throw the balance completely off. First and foremost this is designed to be a PC. The fact that the effects have a limited duration and are saveable for a reasonably optimised character is a deliberate part of the balance and RP process. The saves should only be failed occasionally - any more and it spoils it as a PC. Would consider changing duration to D6+1 rounds - to give it a smidge more ooomph!!

At the end of the day good and bad GMs will be good and bad GMs irrespective of what is and isnt going on!!

Enlighten the Unbeliever: Fort save against fear effect?

Yup

Fiddled with the design a bit in terms of balance and flavour.... havent fleshed out the summoning list yet though. As always feedback please!

Dark Apostle

Some clerics are willing to tamper with their own sanity, in order to be elevated in the sight of the masters of the Dark Tapestry and gain terrible new powers. A Dark Apostle is a high priest of a Great Old One or Outer God, fervently dedicated to granting their masters access to the material world.

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier. This alters the cleric's class skills.

Weapon and armour proficiency
A Dark Apostle is proficient with the club, dagger, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, and with light armour, but he's not proficient with any type of shield. This replaces the cleric's weapon and armour proficiencies.

Zealout
A dark apostle is fanatical in his worship. Their innate affinity with the abyss and the powers within disrupts aspects of their divine power and as such they completely lose the ability to channel energy. This ability may not be regained through alternate means.This ability alters the normal channel ability.

Restricted Domain
Irrespective of which deity they worship, one of their domains must always be Void, even if that particular deity does not offer it as a choice. Any of the Void subdomains can be selected as part of this restriction. This ability alters the normal domain ability.

Spontaneous casting and summoning
A Dark Apostle cannot spontaneously cast curing/inflicting spells. Instead they can spontaneously cast Summon Monster spells but only to summon creatures of the Aberration type. They may not summon creatures of any other type. They may communicate perfectly via telepathy with any summoned monster and the creature obeys commands exactly as requested for the duration of the spell.

According to the spell level, the following creatures may be summoned:
I:
II:
III:
IV:
V:
VI:
VII:
VIII:
IX:

Forbidden lore
Through their occult readings a Dark Apostle comes across many terrible and ancient incantations and rituals that would be considered heretical for followers of other gods. This knowledge enables access to spells otherwise unavailable. At 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th and 15th level a Dark Apostle may select a single spell from any other domain/subdomain of a level that they can cast. These may be prepared in their normal spell slots. Once made, the choice cannot be changed.

Enlighten the Unbeliever
The ability may be used 1/day from 6th level. A single target within close range may be shown what is behind the skin of reality. The cleric points at his enemy, utters a stream of unnatural, incomprehensible words and exposes them to the emptiness of the abyss. The target must make a DC Fort save equal to 10 + 1/2 cleric level + wisdom modifier. A failed save means the target is paralyzed with fear for D6 + 1 rounds. If the save is passed, the target is merely frightened for D4 + 1 rounds. This ability is a supernatural, fear based effect.

Gift of the Chosen
Knowledge of what lies behind the curtain of the Dark Tapestry is enough to challenge the lucidity of even the most stalwart believer. Madness and insanity are frequently the rewards for service. A Dark Apostle, however, believes these to be gifts given only to the chosen and a sign of high regard. Every time the cleric prepares his spells, he must test to see if he is afflicted by a form of madness. The form is dependant on the cleric’s level and the effects are only applicable for the next 24 hours.

3rd level: Mania (Will DC 12).The character knows what lurks in the abyss and cannot help being fascinated by it.

Duration: D6 rounds - these do not have to be consecutive but can be chosen by the GM.

Unlike a lot of others I dont like PrC like Evangelist that allow complete class progression (granted there is a 1 level sacrifice involved)..... for me there should be a real sacrifice involved going PrC.

A gain in power and/or versatility in an aspect of your class for sacrifice/loss in other aspects of your class.

If you have a base class that already gets loads of class abilities as you level up then you absolutely should not be able to gain a load more on top for the sake of a feat and some skill ranks!!!

Thats why I quite like how Paizo currently design most of the PrC. If you're a witch, sorceror, shaman... etc then you should have your access to more abilities restricted unless you are prepared to give up a lot in return.

Might I suggest a Varisian Pilgrim cleric (devoted pilgrim if you're checking d20pfsrd)?

Everytime I read up on that archetype, I kind of do a double take.... RAW its amazing...I kind of think it needs FAQing!

For example...a cleric with Liberation as one of its domains by 8th level can effectively grant the entire party a permanent Freedom of Movement spell!

Tired old record that I am...... D6 divine

A sacred summoning Herald Caller cleric..... oodles of supporty and buffy goodness.

Yes some sort of template for design would be good - I'd love to do a Herald Caller archetype for cleric

PrC are essential IMO...

They give flavour to the flavourless and balance out class abilities - classes with lots of class abilities tend not to be able to use PrC effectively.

Oh, and regarding the name, this class came out *before* the Paizo class :)

The irony is that a spontaneous druid (with possibly a small dollop of witch) is FAR more thematically appropriate than the train wreck that is the Paizo shaman version...... kudos :)

I would go Herald Caller over Evangelist every single day of the week....

Gift of the Chosen is something that is not going to come up, ever. So if this is supposed to be a flaw that balances being able to spam Chokers at level 1, it needs to be reworked.

Gift of the Chosen was mainly for RP reasons.... anything Lovecraft has to have some madness involved!

Even without it I think the class is pretty well balanced. I would certainly be open to bumping the DC's up by 1 and/or introducing a new madness at say level 4. You have to bare in mind that whether a DC is passed will be strongly influenced by initial point buy and that a save will have to be made every day. In order for this to work as a PC class the saves for Gift of the Chosen should only be failed very occasionally....otherwise things WILL spiral out of control!!

Under the current summoning rules a choker wouldnt be able to be summoned until 2nd level and to be honest a choker is hardly a game breaking monster for a PC to summon. I would put Color Spray as a spell far more likely to end encounters at low levels.