So here is a question which recently came up in my group: Is it time to simply drop Prestige Classes?
Now to understand the question, first we must address the fact that Prestige Classes were introduced to the D20 system at a time when there were relatively few of the customization options we now take for granted. Traits were a very new concept that most group hadn't even heard of or implemented. Archetypes were not yet introduced, and racial customization as we know it today had not yet appeared on the scene. Customization was still limited to basic choices of Skills, feats, spells and magic items/equipment.
That said, with all of the customization options currently available, has the time come to simply rethink the viability of the PrC system?
Thoughts?
They already did. It has been years since the last PrC and they have said they won't be publishing more.
<chuckle> I guess Paizo agreed with me :)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It hasn't been that long. Inner sea gods, Champions of Balance and Technology Guide had some in and they where all 2014.
I think Pathfinder pretty much has prestige classes solely to ensure compatibility with 3.5. Since this game is coming up on its seventh anniversary this August, the relative proportions of "people who are playing 3.5 and want new material" to "people who are just playing Pathfinder" has probably shifted to the point where Paizo can just ignore 3.5 compatibility entirely.
Some of Pathfinder's fundamental design principles (no dead levels, you can stay in a single class until level 20 and it pays off for you) run contrary to how PrCs were seen and used back in the old days. Because most of the PrCs haven't been meaningfully supported in years and the less prestigious classes have gotten a lot of support, for the most part PrCs are obsolete and can be safely ignored. In all but a few cases (e.g. Dragon Disciple) there's a better option to play 'that sort of thing" in an archetype for a normal class; you're better off as an eldritch archer than an arcane archer.
But I don't think anything actually needs to be done. You can just ignore PrCs safely since no one is forced to ever take one and there are compelling reasons not to. If Paizo has a really good idea for something that is better done as a PrC than an archetype they can feel free to add one, but if that never happens then we can just stick with what we've got.
It's not like the "trap" PrCs are worse than the "trap" archetypes, but I do know that rules issues with "early entry through racial SLAs" have rankled a lot of people so I think we'd probably be better off if we just ignored prestige classes entirely.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Evangelist is pretty cool. Lots of classes only get better by taking it. Winter Witch too pretty much adds to your base class. You also have ones that do actually fit a niche well, like mammoth rider.
The main issue with PrC's is the amount of dead weight in them. A lot just don't stand up well to the new class + archetype structure. They need to take about 60-75% of them and either cut them or revamp them to get the whole thing up to snuff. I can see why someone Lazlo.Arcadia thinks about just dropping them as you have to dig in there and find the ones that are actually worth taking.
Evangelist is pretty cool. Lots of classes only get better by taking it. Winter Witch too pretty much adds to your base class. You also have ones that do actually fit a niche well, like mammoth rider.
The main issue with PrC's is the amount of dead weight in them. A lot just don't stand up well to the new class + archetype structure. They need to take about 60-75% of them and either cut them or revamp them to get the whole thing up to snuff. I can see why someone Lazlo.Arcadia thinks about just dropping them as you have to dig in there and find the ones that are actually worth taking.
Pretty much.
An interesting note on PrCs is a lot of them fail to give effective class levels for abilities. Even if the class itself grants those abilities... *cough*shadowdancer*cough* Another interesting note is that PrCs lack options. Whereas with a normal class you often choose how to build your class. With a PrC you have around 2-3 choices, if any at all. You are paying a premium and restricting your build up front for restricting your build further. *cough*shadowdancer*cough* This leaves less room for optimization. For PrCs that have their major features in the back no one cares and for PrCs that have their major features up front they are something to do with a martial and ditch.
HOWEVER, I do believe though that it is partly player mentality and table variance. Honestly, I think people just forget PrCs exist as there are plenty of builds that would be strictly better with taking a PrC. As far as I care after a certain point every Inspired Blade Swashbuckler should be a Duelist. For the boards I assume (being that I have little interest in society play) that their end level around 13ish does restrict how good some PrCs actually are.
While it's true that not all PrC's are created equal, there are a number which are truly excellent. Our group actually goes about 50/50 on whether or not a character goes into a PrC. In WotR, for instance, we had a rogue evangelist of Desna, a Hellknight Signifer cleric, a Magaambyan Arcanist wizard, and an Inheritor's Crusader paladin. In our Iron Gods campaign, we haven't touched them.
I think a lot of the reason for that is due to archetypes, which fill a lot of the role of a PrC, while being a PrC you enter at level 1.
Personally, I'd get rid of classes, period. :-)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like prestige classes but I would like to replace them with an alternate system closer to the benefits from organizations. Something like (much) weaker mythic progression, parallel to class levels and advancement independent from XP.
Something that doesn't halt class level progression.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In my opinion, Prestige Classes work best when they are a prestige.
Meaning, they need to be flavorful and thematic.
I find both the Hellknight and the Signifier PrC to be awesome and well worth the effort, even if they are mechanical steps down from single class builds, simply because of the incredible flavor they bring with them and their potential to influence story elements as members of a powerful organization.
I find Dragon Disciple and Mammoth Rider to have a certain "WOW" factor as well a a certain degree of raw power. I couldn't keep an Annihilator Robot alive for more than a turn because of the Barbarian/Mammoth Rider at my table...
Outside of the heavily thematic or overtly flash PrC, they all just seem to fall flat.
One issue I notice is the widespread gimping of spell casting in PrCs.
It makes no sense for me mechanically, as you pay for your abilities of your PrC upfront by meeting the prerequisites.
It makes no sense to me thematically, as many of these PrCs are ones with HEAVY magic themes. I mean, why on Golarion would the Blackfire Adepts or Riftwardens sacrifice spell casting abilities for their PrC abilities?
I simply don't see the logic in it.
And yeah, Archtypes really fill the role that PrCs used to.
In the end, I think PrCs should be:
1)Very thematic and flavorful. They should have a certain aesthetic appeal that makes a player want to play them regardless of the abilities.
2)Be heavily tied into either an organization or a very specific way of life.
3)Be at least mechanically viable. I'm not saying they need to be strictly better than single class builds, but they should at least be able to stand toe to toe with a moderately well built single class.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think there is still a place for prestige classes. They may not be good or used in PFS or highly OP gaming tables, but they are fun for the casual gaming group and other groups.
I think archetypes are wonderful, but sometimes a prestige class really hits the mark with me. I'm betting there are quite a few that have similar thoughts, even if they aren't on the forums.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not everyone Powergames; prestige classes can be fun, though as noted have already been mostly replaced with archetypes, which are also fun.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
PrC are essential IMO...
They give flavour to the flavourless and balance out class abilities - classes with lots of class abilities tend not to be able to use PrC effectively.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Recent Player Companions have provided feats, magic items, and even archetypes that make some Prestige Classes better options.
A Few Examples:
- Accomplished Sneak Attack means earlier access to Arcane Trickster.
- The Shadow Jumper's Tunic boosts the Shadowdancer's Shadow Jumping ability.
- The Magaambyan Initiate archetype has great synergy with Magaambyan Arcanist.
I suspect we will see more of these options in the future.
Let's not forget the Winter Witch archetype that plays directly into the prestige class. Plus Hunter works quite well with Mammoth Lord
|
I am a big fan of prestige classes because it tends to be something most people stay away from. In society play I have a Shadowdancer, Evangelist, dragon Disciple/Eldritch Knight, Winter Witch and Mystery Cultist. Just gives something different to everyone else, as I tend to see a ton of recycled builds amongst the lodge.
|
Many prestige classes are a focus. A prestige class should do its thing better than any other option. I.e., the Assassin should assassinate better than any other class choice. The fact it gets no rogue or ninja talents, no hide in plain sight, a death attack no more powerful than a Master Spy or the Rogue's capstone (albeit with earlier access), and no other interesting or unique class abilities makes the Assassin lackluster. 4 + Int skills is just insulting - what were the designers thinking?!
Other prestige classes are flavour or fun ways of mixing class abilities together. We need prestige classes more like the Hellknight Signifer and Evangelist, which improve base class abilities for this concept to work well.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Noooooo!
I love PrC. Most could do with a redesign, but I still love them.
At this point, most of the PrC could probably just be an archetype.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I love prestige classes and frankly wish the PrC were more like they were in 3.5. I truly miss my Stormlord of Talos and there's nothing currently in Paizo that allows me to play a class like that again.
I would be extremely unhappy to see Eldritch Knight and Dragon Disciple ditched. People tend to stay away from them because they may seem like generally bad ideas, but if handled right they can make really great characters that are a challenge to do well.
Though they're CRB, many possibilities have opened up since. Like grabbing Divine Favor (Spell Sage -> Preferred Spell) on a Wizard/EK. Or going Fey/Draconic crossblooded Barbarian Dragon Disciple with Persistent Hideous Laughter to compliment Monstrous Physique and ~34STR raging greatsword.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I love prestige classes. I would like to see more of them and more options for them, including archetypes for my favorite prestige classes. sure, some of them, maybe even many of them could do with a redesign. example: Pyrokineticist is one of my favorite prestige classes, but has the massive flaw of being focused on fire damage without a reliable way of dealing with fire immunity. That may be ridiculous of me to want, but there it is.
PrC have their place as flavor and a matter of more choice and customisation. They spawned archetypes but where not and should not be replaced by them.
This is part of Pathfinder's on going strength in regards to versatile and customisable character(maybe overly complex in some cases and broken in others but that's the price of ever growing content) and this stands for me as one of the main reason is out lived D&D 4th.
|
|
I love prestige classes. I would like to see more of them and more options for them, including archetypes for my favorite prestige classes. sure, some of them, maybe even many of them could do with a redesign. example: Pyrokineticist is one of my favorite prestige classes, but has the massive flaw of being focused on fire damage without a reliable way of dealing with fire immunity. That may be ridiculous of me to want, but there it is.
Kineticists are not prestige classes.
I personally have not really seen prestige classes in play much in either 3.5 or pathfinder but mostly because I play at lower levels. Also I have seen players that seem to really like the magus class but would not really like mutliclassesd wizard going. But at level 2 when you can start spellstriking things I think that caused that player my brother to have lots of fun.
I find it a bit hard to want to do a character concept for prestige class but it takes a few. I think cypermage from inner sea magic is one of the better ones I have seen.
Kineticists are not prestige classes.
There's a 3rd party PrC (form the Dreamscarred Psionics book) called "Pyrokineticist" which predates the official Kineticist by several years.
Honestly though the version of "Psionics" offered in Occult Adventures is probably preferable to most prior approaches.
(2) Can anyone say when Paizo's most recent published PrC was?
The last one I found was Pain Taster in 5/2014 (Occult Realms).
The three good ones in Inner Sea Gods in 4/2014.One before that, Envoy of Balance, another nice one in 3/2014.
I haven't been able to find one since those.
Paizo's failure to put out decent prestige classes is very disappointing to me, because I think they complement the archetype system quite nicely. Paizo has succeeded admirably in getting rid of the old 3.5 problem of PrC's being functionally mandatory, and archetypes are great for easily fulfilling general concepts. Where they fall short is if you have a specific concept, and know exactly which abilities your character should have. Unless you get lucky and those abilities are on compatible archetypes, this can be tricky to do or just infeasible. Many concepts are either stuck with a lot of unwanted baggage, or end up mediocre at what's supposed to be their core competency, all because they needed to pick a very weird archetype to get the combination of abilities they needed. Prestige classes have much higher compatibility, and can be mixed in with any archetypes or classes to either accentuate strengths, add secondary abilities, or simply give you a reasonable mid-late career option if you have a multi-class combo that doesn't scale well.
I completely agree with My Self that prestige classes in Pathfinder seem far too attached to 3.5 era thinking. Base classes have more class features that are more powerful, have better long-term progressions, and are much more flexible. Prestige classes should have been Pathfinderized with the base classes. They don't need odious prerequisites anymore since halting the progression of your base class abilities is already a big opportunity cost. Prestige classes also could have gotten more flexible along with base classes. Imagine if Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge got a list of cool powers that they could pick from every 2nd level in the same vein as rage powers or rogue talents; instead of being near-forgotten niches, they'd have likely have become popular staples and could have gotten more content published. Sure, classes like Arcanist would have had to be written with the consideration of how they interact with Eldritch Knight, but that just enriches all the classes involved!
Prestige Classes, new ones, could be designed for players who realize that Conan is no longer a valid character concept when the game hits level 9. They could be designed to add mobility, intelligence gathering and protection-from-autofail effects to martial characters who sorely lack them.
None of these prestige classes would be remotely balanced with anything published today.
While there are certainly things about the Eldritch Knight that could use a re-work, the actual class itself is a martial that gets 9/10 full spellcasting levels. Things like Overland Flight and Monstrous Physique make for one hell of a package of class features, even if the prerequisites are an ugly hurdle and Spell Critical should pretty much just be ignored. If Eldritch Knight was a core class or Archetype available from level 1 it would make for an absurdly powerful martial character. "Oh nice, level 6, time to turn into a full BAB, +2STR (size) gargoyle with 4 natural attacks! Arcane Strike makes them all +2damage and magic!"
Things that are tied to specific organizations or religions or other philosophies (as opposed to being used similarly by many organizations or religions, such as Fighter or Cleric) and that need some proof of capability and loyalty that goes beyond what can be demonstrated in 1st level training should by all means correspond to prestige classes. Hellknights of both prestige classes are the flagship examples, although both prestige classes need an update to work properly with newer material (just maybe we will get this in the upcoming Path of the Hellknight). Indeed, Paladins/Antipaladins and Inquisitors should really be prestige classes, not base classes.
Things that correspond more to general training (especially self-training) should generally be archetypes (for instance, Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, and Eldritch Knight are all really generic class advancements, and thus should be converted to archetypes(*), and why wasn't the Winter Witch prestige class just baked into the corresponding archetype?).
(*)As Magus archetypes -- Eldritch Archer is already a pretty good conceptual substitute for Arcane Archer, while unfortuately GreenSting Slayer Magus is a really bad substitute for Arcane Trickster, and Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue is cool but not a true substitute; we don't yet have an official Eldritch Knight substitute, but I took a shot at this myself.
In some cases having both an archetype and a prestige class may make sense (for instance, Aldori Swordlord Fighter archetype is what you get from basic training, while Aldori Swordlord prestige class is what you get when you become one of the elite duelists of Brevoy). Likewise, Hellknights could actually use some Armiger archetypes (of several candidate entry classes) -- again, maybe we will get some of this in the upcoming Path of the Hellknight.
Unfortunately, many prestige classes just don't actually have much prestige in them, and this was also the case in D&D 3.x.
While there are certainly things about the Eldritch Knight that could use a re-work, the actual class itself is a martial that gets 9/10 full spellcasting levels. Things like Overland Flight and Monstrous Physique make for one hell of a package of class features, even if the prerequisites are an ugly hurdle and Spell Critical should pretty much just be ignored.
Sure, but it's got lots of other problems, too. It has action economy issues, difficulty with AC, it's a full spell level behind other casters of its base class, and it has multiple attribute dependency. There are a lot of limiting factors here, and that gives it lots of room for cool class features in its own right without going overboard.
While there are certainly things about the Eldritch Knight that could use a re-work, the actual class itself is a martial that gets 9/10 full spellcasting levels. Things like Overland Flight and Monstrous Physique make for one hell of a package of class features, even if the prerequisites are an ugly hurdle and Spell Critical should pretty much just be ignored.Sure, but it's got lots of other problems, too. It has action economy issues, difficulty with AC, it's a full spell level behind other casters of its base class, and it has multiple attribute dependency. There are a lot of limiting factors here, and that gives it lots of room for cool class features in its own right without going overboard.
Well, a melee-oriented Barbarian 1 (Extra Rage)/ Wizard 6 (Teleportation School) / Eldritch Knight 2 can: wear an enhanced mithral kikko with Arcane Armor Training, toss on things like Shield, Mirror Image or Monstrous Physique for 9 minutes at a time, swing a greatsword for 30ish damage (or more with a polymorph effect) with essentially permanent Heroism and a solid attack bonus, and make a 15ft. swift-action teleport and 5ft.step before, during, or after a full attack action. Plus they can utilize no-save and utility spells even if they don't maintain a high mental stat, since they have no need to Rage until entering melee. That's a highly optimized example, but still...
Well, a melee-oriented Barbarian 1 (Extra Rage)/ Wizard 6 (Teleportation School) / Eldritch Knight 2 can: wear an enhanced mithral kikko with Arcane Armor Training, toss on things like Shield, Mirror Image or Monstrous Physique for 9 minutes at a time, swing a greatsword for 30ish damage (or more with a polymorph effect) with essentially permanent Heroism and a solid attack bonus, and make a 15ft. swift-action teleport and 5ft.step before, during, or after a full attack action. Plus they can utilize no-save and utility spells even if they don't maintain a high mental stat, since they have no need to Rage until entering melee. That's a highly optimized example, but still...
Several problems with that build.
Eldritch Armor Training and Shift compete for Swift action. Shift prevents you from taking actions until next turn, because it works like Dimension Door. A 6-caster at level 9 has 3rd. level spells, +6 BAB and class features; this guy is two for three.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like prestige classes for making something available to multiple classes/class combos instead of locking it into one specific class's archetype.
While there were only few new prestige classes lately, d20PFSRD lists 91 (!) of them overall. While archetypes get more attention, prestige classes are more than a short-lived tribute to 3.5.
Several problems with that build.
Eldritch Armor Training and Shift compete for Swift action. Shift prevents you from taking actions until next turn, because it works like Dimension Door. A 6-caster at level 9 has 3rd. level spells, +6 BAB and class features; this guy is two for three.
Eldritch Armor Training doesn't occupy a swift-action unless you cast a spell, which makes melee uses of swift-actions not an issue.
Shift says that you can teleport as if using Dimension Door, not that it otherwise works as Dimension Door. In fact, it works differently than Dimension door in almost every conceivable way, right down to the fact that it's not even a spell-like ability. I can see why someone might say that it cancels other actions, but I've never seen any Teleportation Wizard made to play it that way. If restricted like that, then it's 'only' useful for doing things like charging with a reach weapon and then zipping back to AoO range instead of eating a full attack, or unloading a full attack and then withdrawing, or attacking a front-line target and then jumping the backline, or setting up a flank.
Anyhow, there are plenty of other great grabs from other full arcane casting classes. Spell Sage Wizard can poach Bard/Cleric/Druid spells with Preferred Spell, a Strength Patron Witch can grab Divine Favor/Power and non-level-based Hexes like Claws, an Admixture Wizard can pull tricks like Rime Fireball, and so on.
Compared to a 6-caster, the EK above has hit 4th level spells and will only pull farther ahead in the future; BAB will also pull ahead. For class features, there's access to both Shift (or other things) and Rage. I'm not saying that it's necessarily better than some 6-caster class, just that people tend to really underestimate the overall effect when composite class features are put to work.
The only reason why I think PrC's should exist is because it could help with multiclassing without ending up getting level 1 appropriate abilities from it. But that isn't how WotC or Paizo or any third-party company I've seen makes them so I'd be fine with them not being made anymore.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Basically, with Pathfinders class design philosophy, its impossible for the 5-10-5 progression to match a 20 level progression, without making the 10 (i.e. the prestige class) so good as to be mandatory.
I don't agree with that.
Winter Witch is probably one of the best PrC's from Paizo IMO.
Why? It fulfills a lot of the goals we mention about prestige classes. It is focused (cold magic), is associated with an organization (White Witches of Irrisen), adds abilities not available to the base class, AND it also progresses the class features of the base class.
Does this make the class mandatory?
No, the limitations in the class (no fire spells, mandatory hex choices), the loss of one level of spell casting is too much for some, and the specific nature of the class all prevent every witch from going down this path.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm fine with prestige classes that reflect membership to organizations or group that don't make much sense for a first level character to belong to. Things like Winter Witches, Red Mantis Assassins, or HellKnights. Not a fan of the generic and flavorless prestige classes...There is nothing about Assassin or Eldritch Knight for instance flavor wise that says you shouldn't be able to have a class/build that does that stuff at first level.
But it can be done.