Classes, Archetypes and Prestige Classes I (and hopefully others) would love to see be made real


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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On the alchemist subject, not really an archetype but I'd really love for something to make generalist alchemists more viable.

My experience has mostly been seeing mutagen specialists that dump bombs or bomb specialists that dump mutagen. A few archetypes that do their own thing, but more or less the same paradigm every time.

Though at the same time I can agree more stuff to trade away mutagens for would be cool too.

UnArcaneElection wrote:


Those are pretty cool, thanks! Though even still I'd like to see something more generally mage-knighty. Still good.

Quote:
Paladin and Antipaladin should really be rebuilt as prestige classes

That might work. Mostly I'm just frustrated by the design space being very cluttered with paladins and upside down paladins when, say, Final Fantasy's Dark Knight or the (new) Warcraft Death Knights or 3.5's Bone Knight PrC if you want to look closer to home show that you can do a lot more with that design space than simply inverting a paladin.

Admittedly the Spiritualist actually does a pretty good job doing the death knight/bone knight concept.

Hex infusion idea sounds really cool.

Quote:


Exemplar Brawler (also see Battle Herald below)
Cavalier (most of its archetypes are still good for this; also see Battle Herald below)
Tactician Fighter

I like these and the others you mentioned, but I think condensing that into something more dedicated to the concept and maybe with some active support options as well would be really cool.

Quote:
Really? The Paizo Specialist Wizard choices mostly look pretty good, although they do have some stinkers mixed in (Necromancer of Life, for example). I'd like to see the Thassilonian/Sin Magic specialists fleshed out more, though.

It's not that the Paizo specialists are bad, but I buid an enchanter wizard and I don't feel like an Enchanter so much as just a regular wizard who happens to have some Enchantment themed tricks on top of everything else.

And then you take Opposition Research and 99% of the difference between you and any other wizard just evaporates on the spot.


^Well, one problem is that Enchanter Wizard is one of the stinkers. Their Arcane School ability (even with the sub-schools) has a ridiculously short duration, and since the uses per day is still Intelligence-based, you are still encouraged pump Intelligence and dump Charisma so that you can pump other things that you need to survive, so that Enchanting Smile effectively has no synergy with your other Wizard abilities (and none of your abilities other than your NON-Enchantment spells help you against Undead, etc.). (Yes, you can fix part of the latter with the Student of Philosophy trait, but something like that should really be built into the Enchantment School if it is going to be a semi-requirement.)

So yes, the Arcane Schools need to be built more evenly. But ones like Conjuration:Teleportation are already pretty good examples.

Also, by definition 1 application of Opposition Research cannot get rid of more than 50% of the difference between you and a different specialist Wizard (unless you are both Elemental Specialists), because each of you have 2 opposition schools (unless you are Elemental Specialists).


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Squiggit wrote:
So stuff like d20's Beguiler and Warmage and Dread Necromancer would be awesome.

We more or less have the Dread Necromancer now. Bones Oracle gets just about everything the Dread Necromancer did. Bone armor, negative energy touch attacks, soul stealing, etc.

Class I really want to see is the Artificer from Eberron. Dear lord, they were to Wizards what Wizards were to Sorcerers. Sorcerer is limited in spells known, but a Wizard who could prepare could easily tailor their list to dominate but needs to know whats coming at the start of the day. The Artificer could blow a wizard out of the water, but needed weeks or months to prepare (because they could craft literally any item in the game using UMD checks, so they had access to literally every spell in the game due to being able to make wands and scrolls of them all). Being able to craft EXACTLY what you wanted, and be able to do it faster and cheaper than anyone else was incredibly awesome.

I also have what I call my "Spongeworthy Concepts", namely characters that are generally very difficult if not impossible to create in most systems, that when I am considering a new system I try to build just to see if it can be done. One of those is a geomancer, as in a spellcaster that uses earth and stone. Depending on your entertainment viewing of choice, think Tera from Teen Titans or an Earthbender from Avatar.


I'd like some steam punk classes.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
JiCi wrote:

Classes:

- A tinkerer/artificer class; someone who builds gadgets that mimics spells and can be animated.

Wonder if this would work as an Alchemist archetype.

You both inspired me with this discussion, and I tried my hand at that very thing.

Take a peek, hopefully I'm not the only one that thinks the pieces fell shockingly into place with very little adaptation.

The Tinkerer (Alchemist Archetype)


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New stuff I want to see

9th level casting spontaneous druid. Was really hoping the shaman would have been this, not sure what it would even be called with the name taken.

Alchemist archetype that trades away the mutagens for Evolution Points to represent grafted limbs and organs from monsters. Could be restricted to shackle-born tieflings? Might also swap the bombs for Sneak Attack, or not so it can stack with Vivisectionist.

Alchemist archetype that relies on mundane chemistry to build non-magical items. Maybe they can aim at a higher crafting DC to make stronger alchemist fires and acid vials, craft thermite or even chemical ammo packs to power non-magical energy weapons.


Personally, here is my wish list:

1. A more "fighty" version of the Mesmerist, one that gets medium armor, martial weapons and adds Charisma to ALL saves. Trading out consummate liar, mental potency, and reducing skill ranks from 6 to 4.

2. A real shapeshifter, with 6 lvl casting, 2/3 BAB and much more robust and less complicated shapeshifting. NOT THE DRUID, that's a caster class with limited shifting, I want a shifter with limited casting.

3. A bard that can buff his/her teammates without singing, dancing, or performing in any way. I'm not a particularly artsy person and have always felt uncomfortable with that. The archaeologist is great but can't buff teammates.


1. A Mesmerist that gets better access to Possession effects.

2. Some sort of shapeshifting-focused class or archetype that has the ability to impersonate individuals and makes use of shapeshifting primarily. I'd love for it to be trickery-based rather than a Druid's focus on nature. Maybe a Vigilante archetype?

3. Stealthy Kineticist. One that gets sniping bonuses and the ability to gather energy as a move action without alerting everybody.

4. Psychic that gets a familiar. It's just so many feats to get otherwise.

5. Sorcerer that has a single flexible spell known that can be chosen daily.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Mime. A bard archetype whose performances create force constructs and who has all spells silenced (even though bard spells can't be silenced usually).

What would they trade out for that? A code of conduct? The ability to do auditory performances? reduced spellcasting so that silent spell is basically built in? Having to use Thought components?


HeHateMe wrote:
3. A bard that can buff his/her teammates without singing, dancing, or performing in any way. I'm not a particularly artsy person and have always felt uncomfortable with that. The archaeologist is great but can't buff teammates.

Well I think perform (oratory) or (acting) might work best. You recite inspiring speeches that don't have to be created by you or your character.


The Golux wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Mime. A bard archetype whose performances create force constructs and who has all spells silenced (even though bard spells can't be silenced usually).
What would they trade out for that? A code of conduct? The ability to do auditory performances? reduced spellcasting so that silent spell is basically built in? Having to use Thought components?

Being mute.


I'd like to see:

-Psychic archetypes for Druids and Oracles, and/or a full-casting, 3/4 BAB psychic class.

-An archetype similar to the 3.5 Warshaper for Rangers.

-A Gish archetype and an animal spirit archetype for Mediums.

-A Kineticist archetype with Bardic features, able to use Light and Sound to cause damage, healing, divination, illusions and enchantment effects.

-An Alchemist archetype using Kintetic Blasts instead of bombs and able to gain spells from the psychic spell list as extracts.

-A bard archetype able to convert their bard spells into sonic blasts.

-A magus archetype focused on summoning and mobility (teleportation, speed and terrain manipulation, etc...).

-A druid archetype able to Wild Shape into magical beasts and/or dragons.

-A sneak attacking archetype for Summoners.

-A Monk/Druid hybrid class. With spontaneous or versatile spellcasting.


Cruel Illusion wrote:

.

-A bard archetype able to convert their bard spells into sonic blasts.

There's something similar, but it trades performance rounds for sonic blasts.


The Golux wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Mime. A bard archetype whose performances create force constructs and who has all spells silenced (even though bard spells can't be silenced usually).
What would they trade out for that? A code of conduct? The ability to do auditory performances? reduced spellcasting so that silent spell is basically built in? Having to use Thought components?

I'd try to limit it mainly to swapping out performances. Say losing Inspire courage/greatness/heroics, frightening tune, dirge of doom. Possibly let them get an oracle-like curse of being mute but getting all spells silenced for free in exchange for say bardic knowledge and lore master. Maybe limit/alter versatile performance to mimey stuff.


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A Mime Bard would absolutely depend upon being able to move rather than being able to make sound, and would depend upon being seen rather than being heard to convey the benefits of Bardic Performance. In addition, a Mime Bard's spellcasting would be a hybrid of Psychic and Arcane spellcasting that would replace Verbal Components with Thought Components, but would retain standard Somatic Components (Material Components and Foci, if any, are not affected); Arcane Spell Failure for wearing Medium or Heavy Armor still applies. A Mime Bard would be able to make use of Logical Spell (although this feat would not be gained automatically), but would not be able to make use of Still Spell (contrast to a normal Bard who can make use of Still Spell but not Silent Spell). Silence would have no effect on a Mime Bard's Bardic Performance, but Blindness or Darkness of a sufficient level to prevent recipients from seeing the Bard would prevent a Mime Bard's Bardic Performance from helping them, as would effects that interrupt line of sight (such as a sufficient distance of Obscuring Mist or Smoke Bomb, provided that recipients do not have an ability that allows them to see through these); likewise, an invisible Mime Bard can only use Bardic Performance to affect creatures that can see through the invisibility. A Mime Bard's Bardic Performances would have to be modified or replaced by Bardic Performances that do not lose their usefulness for requiring the recipients to look at the Mime Bard. In addition, Medium or Heavy Armor would interfere with a Mime Bard's Bardic Performance in the same way as it interferes with Arcane spellcasting (with the same failure chances, with the failure chances being reduced by abilities and effects that reduce chances of Arcane Spell Failure). Below is a rough draft of what I have in mind:

Countersong (1): Replaced by Silent Fascinate (see below).

Distraction (1): Unchanged (this Bardic Performance is already sight-dependent).

Fascinate (1): This and Countersong are replaced by Silent Fascinate, which works like Fascinate, except for being sight-dependent rather than sight-and-sound-dependent.

Inspire Courage (1): Unchanged except for being always sight-dependent rather than sight-or-sound-dependent.

Inspire Competence (3): Most tasks that Inspire Competence would be useful for would suffer from the recipient's attention being required to be on the Mime Bard, so this and Inspire Greatness are replaced with Dance of Mockery, which is visual-dependent and applies the Inspire Competence bonus as a penalty to an opponent's skill checks. Every 3 levels after 3rd level, the Mime Bard can affect an additional enemy with this Bardic Performance. At 9th level, this also applies to opponents' attack rolls.

Suggestion (6): Unchanged except for being always sight-dependent rather than sight-or-sound-dependent; the Mime Bard must pantomime the Suggestion.

Dirge of Doom (8): Replaced by Dance of Dread, which works like Dirge of Doom except for being entirely sight-dependent rather than sight-and-sound-dependent.

Inspire Greatness (9): Replaced by Dance of Mockery (see above).

Soothing Performance (12): Replaced by Soothing Dance, which works similarly, but only acts equivalent to Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, and does not depend upon audible components (only visual).

Frightening Tune (14): Replaced by Dance of Fear, which works like Frightening Tune, but relies on visible instead of audible components; targets who fail their Will Saves can temporarily stop being Frightened 1 round (or longer if extended by Bardic Performance modifiers such as Lingering Performance) after they no longer see the Mime Bard, but immediately become Frightened again (with no further Save unless otherwise granted a new Save against an ongoing effect) upon looking upon the Mime Bard again, provided that the Mime Bard is using this Bardic Performance at the time.

Inspire Heroics (15): Unchanged except for being always sight-dependent rather than sight-or-sound-dependent.

Mass Suggestion (18): Unchanged except for being always sight-dependent rather than sight-or-sound-dependent; the Mime Bard must pantomime the Suggestion.

Deadly Performance (20): Replaced by Dance of Obsession, which is only visual-dependent, and permanently Charms a target that fails a Will Save (a successful Will Save makes a target immune to this Bardic Performance of a particular Mime Bard for 24 hours). This Charm effect even persists through abuse (even if life-threatening) performed by the Mime Bard and allies thereof, for the Charmed target will blame itself for the abuse. Although emplacement of this Charm effect is Spell-Like, once it is in effect it is no longer subject to Anti-Magic Fields or dead magic zones; it can be removed by Break Enchantment or greater Curse-removal magic, but a target thus relieved of it must succeed a second Will Save 1d1000 minutes later to be truly free; otherwise the effect re-establishes itself.

Mime Bards are not required to refrain from making sounds, although they often do so as a matter of style.


Editfail for above: After I got done with the above, I realized I had created a whole Bard archetype, so I wanted to edit it to get it into standard archetype format, but the edit timer ran out.

Also want to do a Magus archetype that is a Magus-Wizard backcross, but right now it is getting awfully late.


That looks pretty solid. The spell list probably needs some tweaking too, or else there need to be masterpieces for things like invisible walls. Also, possibly, a masterpiece or feature for being able to mime the existence of focuses or material components for spells, and/or for certain mundane items?


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I really want a Oracle-Druid hybrid class that has oracles curse. Also I would love to see a Rogue/Sorcerer hybrid that is kinda like a full 20 lvl class version of the Arcane trickster, but with bloodlines also.

Liberty's Edge

Artifix wrote:
Also I would love to see a Rogue/Sorcerer hybrid that is kinda like a full 20 lvl class version of the Arcane trickster, but with bloodlines also.

You might check out The Trickster from Kobold Press. Although it's not exactly a Rogue/Sorcerer hybrid (it's probably more of a Rogue/Arcanist or Rogue/Wizard) is is very much a full 20 level take an an Arcane Trickster.

And, although there are no bloodlines, the class has different Fortes to pick from, which allows a similar degree of customization :)

Liberty's Edge

RogueMortal wrote:

New stuff I want to see

9th level casting spontaneous druid. Was really hoping the shaman would have been this, not sure what it would even be called with the name taken.

Have you checked out the Shaman from Kobold Press? Full 9th-level spontaneous druid is exactly what the class is! Heck, "The Spontaneous Druid" are the very first words in the product's store text! :)

Oh, and regarding the name, this class came out *before* the Paizo class :)

If you want more bang for you buck, the Shaman is also one of the classes in the New Paths Compendium


Marc Radle wrote:


Oh, and regarding the name, this class came out *before* the Paizo class :)

The irony is that a spontaneous druid (with possibly a small dollop of witch) is FAR more thematically appropriate than the train wreck that is the Paizo shaman version...... kudos :)


RogueMortal wrote:

New stuff I want to see

9th level casting spontaneous druid. Was really hoping the shaman would have been this, not sure what it would even be called with the name taken.

Alchemist archetype that trades away the mutagens for Evolution Points to represent grafted limbs and organs from monsters. Could be restricted to shackle-born tieflings? Might also swap the bombs for Sneak Attack, or not so it can stack with Vivisectionist.

Alchemist archetype that relies on mundane chemistry to build non-magical items. Maybe they can aim at a higher crafting DC to make stronger alchemist fires and acid vials, craft thermite or even chemical ammo packs to power non-magical energy weapons.

The 3.5 Spirit Shaman is a 9th caster Druid spell list spontaneous class. In fact, each day it can repick its spells known (it is pretty cool). Thus, it can change which spells its uses spontaneously each day.

It uses pathfinder turning mechanics, interestly (for hurting sprits not healing). Spirits including
-- Incorporeal Undead
--Fey
--Elementals
--Creatures with the Spirit Subtype
--Rakshasas (included in the above)
--Nagas (also with Spirit subtype retroactively added)
-- Outsiders

But I would in Pathfinder grant more spells/day, because it has a lot rate (which is unusual for spontanous casters).


Scythia wrote:
Cruel Illusion wrote:

.

-A bard archetype able to convert their bard spells into sonic blasts.

There's something similar, but it trades performance rounds for sonic blasts.

The soundstriker's wordstrike kinda sucks as far as damage dealing goes, though.


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I would love to see a class, like a summoner, but has a construct for a companion. I think that would be awesome.


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I'd love an alchemist who can transform himself/herself into oozes and copy their powers. That would be awesome.


Okay, here's my idea for a Magus hybrid archetype backcrossed to the Wizard:

The Warrior Mage

Complementary to the more martial-focused Myrmidarch, some Magi focus more on the arcane side of their training. These are the Warrior Mages.

Armor Proficiency

A Warrior Mage is not proficient with any type of armor or shield, and runs the normal risk arcane spell failure when attempting to cast arcane spells that have somatic components while wearing any type of armor or using a shield (even if proficiency is gained from a feat or another class). This replaces the Magus' normal Armor Proficiency.

Wizard Spellcasting

A Warrior Mage casts spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list of spells up to 6th level, and treats these spells (including any gained from Arcane School choice -- see below) as Magus spells for the purpose of Magus Arcana that differentiate between spell lists. The basic progression of spells per day is the same as for a normal Magus, but choice of Arcane School (see below) can add spells per day. This replaces the Magus' spellcasting.

Arcane School

A Warrior Mage picks a Wizard Arcane School (including a Sub-School, if desired) and gains all Arcane School powers at the same class level at which a Wizard would gain them, using Magus levels as effective Wizard levels to determine effect. Bonus spell slots (if not picking Universalist or a sub-school thereof), Opposition or Prohibited Schools, and Arcane School additions to the spell list (if applicable) work the same way as for a Wizard, provided that the spells are of a level that the Warrior Mage can cast. This replaces Spell Combat, Improved Spell Combat, and True Magus.

Arcane Bond

A Warrior Mage gains an Arcane Bond that works exactly like the Wizard class feature of the same ame. This replaces Arcane Pool.

Wizard Archetypes and Discoveries

A Warrior Mage can take Wizard Archetypes that only modify Arcane School and/or Arcane Bond. In addition, a Warrior Mage can take a Wizard Arcane Discovery in place of a Magus Bonus Feat or a feat gained by general character level advancement. In either case, this is subject to the restriction that any feature of such a Wizard archetype or Wizard Arcane Discovery that applies to or requires ability to cast spells of a certain level only takes effect or becomes available when the Warrior Mage gains a high enough level to cast spells of the specified level. This modifies Bonus Feats.

Magus Arcana

A Warrior Mage who selected a Familiar for Arcane Bond cannot select the Familiar Magus Arcana, but can select Bonded Object as a Magus Arcana. This alters and otherwise works like Magus Arcana for a Warrior Mage who selected a Familiar for Arcane Bond, and has no effect on a Warrior Mage who selected a Bonded Object for Arcane Bond.

Arcane Pool

At 4th level, a Warrior Mage gains an Arcane Pool, which works exactly the same as the Arcane Pool of a standard Magus, apart from becoming available at 4th level instead of 1st level. This replaces Spell Recall.

Wizard Knowledge Pool

At 7th level, a Warrior Mage gainst Knowledge Pool as normal, except that it applies to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list instead of the Magus spell list. This alters and otherwise works like Knowledge Pool.

Light Armor

At 7th level, a Warrior Mage gains proficiency with Light Armor. A Warrior Mage can cast Warrior Mage spells while wearing Light Armor without incourring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like most other arcane spellcasters, a Warrior Mage wearing Medium or Heavy Armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. This ability does not apply to arcane spellcasting gained from other classes. This replaces Medium Armor.

Spell Recall

At 11th level, a Warrior Mage gains Spell Recall, which works exactly the same as the 4th level standard Magus class feature of the same name. This replaces Improved Spell Recall.

Medium Armor

At 13th level, a Warrior Mage gains proficiency with Medium Armor. A Warrior Mage can cast Warrior Mage spells while wearing Medium Armor without incourring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like most other arcane spellcasters, a Warrior Mage wearing Heavy Armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. This ability does not apply to arcane spellcasting gained from other classes. This replaces Heavy Armor.

Spell Combat

At 14th level, a Warrior Mage gains Spell Combat, which works exactly the same as the 1st level standard Magus class feature of the same name. This replaces Greater Spell Combat.

Heavy Armor

At 19th level, a Warrior Mage gains proficiency with Heavy Armor. A Warrior Mage can cast Warrior Mage spells while wearing Heavy Armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like Most other arcane spellcasters, a Warrior Mage using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. This ability does not apply to arcane spellcasting gained from other classes. This replaces Greater Spell Access.


I am still waiting for an un-armored martial weapon master. Unchained Monk gets close with things like the temple sword and nine ring broadsword but i want a something based around either STR or DEX and WIS or INT, able to use shields but not armor. A focus on one specific fighting style... Maybe something based off the Slayer for access to Ranger Combat Styles? Canny Defense would be nice or a Monk style extra stat to AC/level scaling AC.

Basically a smart martial option. Lore Warden doesnt do it for me.


^What's wrong with Lore Warden (or Tactician)?


ryric wrote:
I'd like to see a "divine trickster" cleric/rogue hybrid. You can kind of do it with Inquisitor but I'm thinking more roguish abilities like sneak attack and such.

Have you seen the Divine Channeler from The Secrets of Adventuring? (You can also get just the chapter on the Divine Channeler as a cheaper PDF.

It's a cleric-like class for whom most of their class features and spellcasting is based on their domains (they cast mostly domain spells with only a few extra standard cleric spells, and have a bunch of domain-themed class features). A Divine Channeler with the Trickery Domain may well be what you are looking for.


Speaking of int. I'd like more options for smart martial characters period.

Lore Warden is nice, but that's one specific archetype of a specific class and there should be more than just one way to pull it off.


HeHateMe wrote:

Personally, here is my wish list:

1. A more "fighty" version of the Mesmerist, one that gets medium armor, martial weapons and adds Charisma to ALL saves. Trading out consummate liar, mental potency, and reducing skill ranks from 6 to 4.

2. A real shapeshifter, with 6 lvl casting, 2/3 BAB and much more robust and less complicated shapeshifting. NOT THE DRUID, that's a caster class with limited shifting, I want a shifter with limited casting.

3. A bard that can buff his/her teammates without singing, dancing, or performing in any way. I'm not a particularly artsy person and have always felt uncomfortable with that. The archaeologist is great but can't buff teammates.

There is a perfect archetype for you! It's called. 'Bard'

Apart from counter sing and fascinate, your perform skill isn't even technically used for your powers. And if you want to visualize using it, use oratory or comedy for powerful and stirring statements and tactical advice, or barbs and biting remarks for comedy. No singing nor dancing required at all. My bard got through all of kingmaker without singing or dancing or playing an instrument on the field or battle even once.


Divine Champion.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^What's wrong with Lore Warden (or Tactician)?

Here is my take on the Lore warden:

Scholastic - Cool, the kind of thing it'd be nice to have on a smart martial.

Expertise - It replaces an ability that i usually forget exists so it is good for that. It gives a free feat to help dodge a feat tax. Good for trip/disarm etc. builds but those are niches to me that fall away in usefulness fairly early on. Fighters as a whole dont really need to dodge feat taxes, Feats is what they do. not needing the 13 int on a class that should be using int... huh.

Maneuver Mastery - goes well with exerptise, makes maneuvers last a little longer. If you are fighting ground based bipedal manufactured weapon users. is it that weird that this is an uncommon group for me to fight in most campaigns?

Know Thy Enemy - Super cool. Gives the feel of being smart while not actually requiring any very high investment into mental stats but thats not exactly what i want. Its a standard action and remains so until level 14 when most games fall apart/end. Kind of eclipsed by studied target which starts earlier, improves faster, better action economy and all the skill boosts.

Hair’s Breadth - Great ability that uses an action that fighters rarely get to use. cool.

For all of that (which for me is mostly just Scholastic and Know Thy Enemy) the Lore Warden gives up huge swaths of AC, no shields no medium or heavy armor. They can buy them back with their feats i suppose. The class seems to push towards needing lots of STR, CON, INT, DEX, WIS and dumping CHA as far as you are allowed making them really MAD. And they dont really use their INT for anything more than skill checks.

By Tactician i assume you mean the 3PP Psionic class? I know its controversial but i dont look at 3PP. I have yet to find a game where it is allowed so its not worth the investment to me.

What i want is a martial class that focuses on STR and INT primary, CON secondary and DEX, WIS, CHA are nice to haves. Archetypes could switch out INT dependence for WIS. Studied Target would be a great add on for the class. Ranger Combat Styles would be a nice to have.

So slightly more worked out;

(working class title, AM SMRT)
D10/Full BAB
Simple, Martial and single exotic weapon.
Light Armor, Shields except Tower
Good Fort and Will saves

4+INT skills

Class abilities:
- Canny Defense (stack with light armor, no need to be armed)
- Ranger Combat Style
- Every two levels add a point of INT mod to Initiative and reflex
- At level 5 add INT mod to either your attack or damage rolls, free action once per round to re-allocate bonuses. Or otherwise Studied Target, every martial needs some kind of accuracy and damage booster

It would push towards STR and INT for high damage or DEX and INT for high defense.


RDM42 wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Personally, here is my wish list:

1. A bard that can buff his/her teammates without singing, dancing, or performing in any way. I'm not a particularly artsy person and have always felt uncomfortable with that. The archaeologist is great but can't buff teammates.

There is a perfect archetype for you! It's called. 'Bard'

Apart from counter sing and fascinate, your perform skill isn't even technically used for your powers. And if you want to visualize using it, use oratory or comedy for powerful and stirring statements and tactical advice, or barbs and biting remarks for comedy. No singing nor dancing required at all. My bard got through all of kingmaker without singing or dancing or playing an instrument on the field or battle even once.

I think you and I are talking about 2 different things. I'd like a bard that can buff his/her teammates without performing or doing anything artistic at all. No singing, no dancing, no oratory, no mime, no rapping or beatboxing, no stand up comedy, no gymnastics or figure skating. Nothing of the sort. This is the crux of the issue why alot of people hate on bards, including me.

Another class I'd love to see is the Warlord from 4E in PF. That was such a fun class that just oozed flavor. I'd love to play a guy who heals people by yelling at them and cussing them out, like the drill Sargeant from Full Metal Jacket. "GET ON YOUR FEET! WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION NUMBNUTS?!" Lol. I know there's a Warlord class in Path of War, but it was done very poorly.

Sczarni

Torbyne wrote:


By Tactician i assume you mean the 3PP Psionic class? I know its controversial but i dont look at 3PP. I have yet to find a game where it is allowed so its not worth the investment to me.

Tactician is actually a Fighter archetype from Ultimate Combat. Basically, it trades tower shields and 3 out of 4 Armor Trainings for more skill points, the ability to take Skill Focus or teamwork feats as bonus feats, and the cavalier's tactician's ability, plus a few opportunities to actually benefit from an INT bonus on the battelfield. Seems alright to me.

Someone earlier mentioned they'd like a Mutagen'less alchemist, because maybe they don't want to play Dr. Jekyll this time around. I'd go the other way-- I want to see a class that's all about "hulking out" and assuming a fearsome battle form; something a bit more transformative than rage, and more unique to the individual.

I imagine it like a druid/fighter hybrid that eschews spellcasting entirely in favor of wildshaping into an animalistic alternate form. Perhaps the character has two separate lists of feats, and benefits from or the other in certain circumstances? Think the Berserker from Torchlight II, or the Abomination from Darkest Dungeon.


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HeHateMe wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Personally, here is my wish list:

1. A bard that can buff his/her teammates without singing, dancing, or performing in any way. I'm not a particularly artsy person and have always felt uncomfortable with that. The archaeologist is great but can't buff teammates.

There is a perfect archetype for you! It's called. 'Bard'

Apart from counter sing and fascinate, your perform skill isn't even technically used for your powers. And if you want to visualize using it, use oratory or comedy for powerful and stirring statements and tactical advice, or barbs and biting remarks for comedy. No singing nor dancing required at all. My bard got through all of kingmaker without singing or dancing or playing an instrument on the field or battle even once.

I think you and I are talking about 2 different things. I'd like a bard that can buff his/her teammates without performing or doing anything artistic at all. No singing, no dancing, no oratory, no mime, no rapping or beatboxing, no stand up comedy, no gymnastics or figure skating. Nothing of the sort. This is the crux of the issue why alot of people hate on bards, including me.

Another class I'd love to see is the Warlord from 4E in PF. That was such a fun class that just oozed flavor. I'd love to play a guy who heals people by yelling at them and cussing them out, like the drill Sargeant from Full Metal Jacket. "GET ON YOUR FEET! WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION NUMBNUTS?!" Lol. I know there's a Warlord class in Path of War, but it was done very poorly.

Serious question... how does one inspire without doing anything? I think you actually do want Bard, you just don't know it yet. Giving inspiring orders is just Perform (Oratory). You realize a Warlord going all drill sergeant is literally just a bard using Perform (Oratory) right? How do you picture someone buffing their teammates without doing anything?


Anzyr wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Personally, here is my wish list:

1. A bard that can buff his/her teammates without singing, dancing, or performing in any way. I'm not a particularly artsy person and have always felt uncomfortable with that. The archaeologist is great but can't buff teammates.

There is a perfect archetype for you! It's called. 'Bard'

Apart from counter sing and fascinate, your perform skill isn't even technically used for your powers. And if you want to visualize using it, use oratory or comedy for powerful and stirring statements and tactical advice, or barbs and biting remarks for comedy. No singing nor dancing required at all. My bard got through all of kingmaker without singing or dancing or playing an instrument on the field or battle even once.

I think you and I are talking about 2 different things. I'd like a bard that can buff his/her teammates without performing or doing anything artistic at all. No singing, no dancing, no oratory, no mime, no rapping or beatboxing, no stand up comedy, no gymnastics or figure skating. Nothing of the sort. This is the crux of the issue why alot of people hate on bards, including me.

Another class I'd love to see is the Warlord from 4E in PF. That was such a fun class that just oozed flavor. I'd love to play a guy who heals people by yelling at them and cussing them out, like the drill Sargeant from Full Metal Jacket. "GET ON YOUR FEET! WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION NUMBNUTS?!" Lol. I know there's a Warlord class in Path of War, but it was done very poorly.

Serious question... how does one inspire without doing anything? I thin you actually want Bard, you just don't know it yet. Giving inspiring orders is just Perform (Oratory).

Inspire through moody gazing and emo posing?

For me, if you think a drill sergeant isn't using a perform skill, you are quite mistaken.


RDM42 wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Serious question... how does one inspire without doing anything? I thin you actually want Bard, you just don't know it yet. Giving inspiring orders is just Perform (Oratory).

Inspire through moody gazing and emo posing?

For me, if you think a drill sergeant isn't using a perform skill, you are quite mistaken.

I don't know... Lelouch's moody gazes and emo (ok chuuni) posing definitely count as Perform in my book.


HeHateMe wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Personally, here is my wish list:

1. A bard that can buff his/her teammates without singing, dancing, or performing in any way. I'm not a particularly artsy person and have always felt uncomfortable with that. The archaeologist is great but can't buff teammates.

There is a perfect archetype for you! It's called. 'Bard'

Apart from counter sing and fascinate, your perform skill isn't even technically used for your powers. And if you want to visualize using it, use oratory or comedy for powerful and stirring statements and tactical advice, or barbs and biting remarks for comedy. No singing nor dancing required at all. My bard got through all of kingmaker without singing or dancing or playing an instrument on the field or battle even once.

I think you and I are talking about 2 different things. I'd like a bard that can buff his/her teammates without performing or doing anything artistic at all. No singing, no dancing, no oratory, no mime, no rapping or beatboxing, no stand up comedy, no gymnastics or figure skating. Nothing of the sort. This is the crux of the issue why alot of people hate on bards, including me.

You don't need to specify the performance and nobody is asking you to sing, it's your character doing it with a special type of magic.


HeHateMe wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Personally, here is my wish list:

1. A bard that can buff his/her teammates without singing, dancing, or performing in any way. I'm not a particularly artsy person and have always felt uncomfortable with that. The archaeologist is great but can't buff teammates.

There is a perfect archetype for you! It's called. 'Bard'

Apart from counter sing and fascinate, your perform skill isn't even technically used for your powers. And if you want to visualize using it, use oratory or comedy for powerful and stirring statements and tactical advice, or barbs and biting remarks for comedy. No singing nor dancing required at all. My bard got through all of kingmaker without singing or dancing or playing an instrument on the field or battle even once.

I think you and I are talking about 2 different things. I'd like a bard that can buff his/her teammates without performing or doing anything artistic at all. No singing, no dancing, no oratory, no mime, no rapping or beatboxing, no stand up comedy, no gymnastics or figure skating. Nothing of the sort. This is the crux of the issue why alot of people hate on bards, including me.

Another class I'd love to see is the Warlord from 4E in PF. That was such a fun class that just oozed flavor. I'd love to play a guy who heals people by yelling at them and cussing them out, like the drill Sargeant from Full Metal Jacket. "GET ON YOUR FEET! WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION NUMBNUTS?!" Lol. I know there's a Warlord class in Path of War, but it was done very poorly.

I repeat ... You think that drill seargent isn't using a performance skill? A drill seargent's routine is a very finely honed and crafted performance if he's any good at all. Definitely oratory/comedy mix.


That's interesting actually, I never thought of a drill Sargeant screaming at people to get them moving as using Perform, I always thought of it as a use of the Intimidate skill.

Shadow Lodge

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To be fair, an Intimidate focused bard archetype would be pretty cool.


^Drill Sergeant Bard -- although a Drill Sergeant Fighter archetype actually exists, which also has the Tactician class feature -- not as good as the Tactician archetype, though. Come to think of it, going either of these Fighter archetypes (preferably Tactician) VMC Bard would be not a bad idea for making a military commander (even of rank higher than Sergeant). Although if you want to go into Battle Herald, then instead of using either of these Fighter archetypes, use Cavalier VMC Bard for the later entry but more powerful method, or Exemplar Brawler (gets Bardic Performance including Inspire Courage at 3rd level) VMC Cavalier for the faster entry but less powerful method.

Sure would be nice to have an actual Battle Herald Cavalier archetype (Rite Publishing made an Inspiring Commander archetype for this purpose, although the levels at which replaced features and their replacements come in are a bit uneven, and it probably replaced too much, since it gets rid of Mount and related features rather than leaving these for some other archetype to replace).

Torbyne wrote:

{. . .}

For all of that (which for me is mostly just Scholastic and Know Thy Enemy) the Lore Warden gives up huge swaths of AC, no shields no medium or heavy armor. They can buy them back with their feats i suppose. The class seems to push towards needing lots of STR, CON, INT, DEX, WIS and dumping CHA as far as you are allowed making them really MAD. And they dont really use their INT for anything more than skill checks.
{. . .}

If you get Weapon Finesse and the right weapon and feat that builds upon Weapon Finesse, you don't have to pump Strength so hard. Or if you dip in another class that grants Heavy Armor and Shield proficiencies, you don't have to pump Dexterity so hard (at a quick-and-dirty guess, some archetype of Cavalier or Samurai that trades out Mount is probably best for this).

Also, Lore Warden itself makes a very good 2 level dip.

As for the AM SMRT (great working title, by the way) class that you want, it sounds to me like Slayer comes close:

D20/Full BAB -- check
Simple, Martial, and single Exotic weapon -- almost check, but not the Exotic weapon unless you get it from a racial proficiency or alternate racial trait
Light Armor, Shields except Tower -- more than check-- you get Medium Armor thrown in for free
Good Fort and Will Saves -- not quite (Slayer has Good Fort and Reflex, so you're going to have to build around a bad Will Save, as with Unchained Monk)
4 + IntMod skill ranks per level -- more than check -- you get 6 + IntMod skill ranks per level

Canny Defense -- didnt see this, but I might have missed somewhere you can pick it up with a Slayer Talent, Rogue Talent, or feat)
Ranger Combat Style -- check (this is a well-recommended Slayer Talent of 3 ranks)
Every 2 levels add a point of IntMod to Initiative and Reflex -- not available, but Vanguard Slayer adds 1/2 your level to Initiative checks (unfortunately it trades out your first 2 Slayer Talents and trades out Stalker to get Ever Ready, which quite nice but losing Stalker hurts)
At level 5 add IntMod to attack or damage rolls -- no, but has your alternate ability fo Studied Target


HeHateMe wrote:
That's interesting actually, I never thought of a drill Sargeant screaming at people to get them moving as using Perform, I always thought of it as a use of the Intimidate skill.

A drill sargeant who is just yelling at recruits to intimidate them into doing what he wants is what is colloquially known as a bad drill sargeant. That isn't what they are doing.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Drill Sergeant Bard -- although a Drill Sergeant Fighter archetype actually exists, which also has the Tactician class feature -- not as good as the Tactician archetype, though. Come to think of it, going either of these Fighter archetypes (preferably Tactician) VMC Bard would be not a bad idea for making a military commander (even of rank higher than Sergeant). Although if you want to go into Battle Herald, then instead of using either of these Fighter archetypes, use Cavalier VMC Bard for the later entry but more powerful method, or Exemplar Brawler (gets Bardic Performance including Inspire Courage at 3rd level) VMC Cavalier for the faster entry but less powerful method.

Sure would be nice to have an actual Battle Herald Cavalier archetype (Rite Publishing made an Inspiring Commander archetype for this purpose, although the levels at which replaced features and their replacements come in are a bit uneven, and it probably replaced too much, since it gets rid of Mount and related features rather than leaving these for some other archetype to replace).

Torbyne wrote:

{. . .}

For all of that (which for me is mostly just Scholastic and Know Thy Enemy) the Lore Warden gives up huge swaths of AC, no shields no medium or heavy armor. They can buy them back with their feats i suppose. The class seems to push towards needing lots of STR, CON, INT, DEX, WIS and dumping CHA as far as you are allowed making them really MAD. And they dont really use their INT for anything more than skill checks.
{. . .}

If you get Weapon Finesse and the right weapon and feat that builds upon Weapon Finesse, you don't have to pump Strength so hard. Or if you dip in another class that grants Heavy Armor and Shield proficiencies, you don't have to pump Dexterity so hard (at a quick-and-dirty guess, some archetype of Cavalier or Samurai that trades out Mount is probably best for this).

Also, Lore Warden itself makes a very good 2 level dip.

As for the AM SMRT (great working title, by the way) class that you...

Yup, Slayer is really close to what i want. It could probably work as an archetype of Slayer. But Slayer as a class still doesnt have anything actually pushing you towards using INT or WIS. To keep it from getting to MAD there would have to be some re-arrangement of derived values, pulling something from DEX or STR over to a mental stat. To keep it from being a Dip it couldnt all come at once at level 1 or 2. to make it playable from 1-20 it would have to come online early-ish though, so some level scaling thing. It is still a great chasis for the concept though so who knows, maybe someday.


Archetype

A monk archetype that has something like the swashbucklers Parry and Riposte ability. Maybe it has flurry of blows completely removed and focuses on only defensive hitting. Maybe its just a ki power, or replaces it like stunning fist.

Prestige Class

The Old Warrior - originally thought that it could be a fighter archetype but monk, barbarian, and brawler should all have access to this. It should be required to be naturally age to middle age as a prerequisite for entry into the class. It should also give more bonuses the older the character is. A venerable martial character should actually a viable character with this.


A full level 20 arcane archer. That isn't built on the magus chassis.


fearcypher wrote:
A full level 20 arcane archer. That isn't built on the magus chassis.

Huh, dare I ask what's wrong with the Eldritch Archer archetype, in Heroes of the Streets?


Raef13 wrote:

Archetype

A monk archetype that has something like the swashbucklers Parry and Riposte ability. Maybe it has flurry of blows completely removed and focuses on only defensive hitting. Maybe its just a ki power, or replaces it like stunning fist.

Prestige Class

The Old Warrior - originally thought that it could be a fighter archetype but monk, barbarian, and brawler should all have access to this. It should be required to be naturally age to middle age as a prerequisite for entry into the class. It should also give more bonuses the older the character is. A venerable martial character should actually a viable character with this.

The Old Warrior is something you could play with my idea too, if you have INT or WIS as main stats you can leverage that age to your benefit :)


Raef13 wrote:

Archetype

A monk archetype that has something like the swashbucklers Parry and Riposte ability. Maybe it has flurry of blows completely removed and focuses on only defensive hitting. Maybe its just a ki power, or replaces it like stunning fist.
{. . .}

Check out this guide -- you might be able to put together something you want with blending the archetypes Kata Master and Monk of Many Styles.

Of course, I'd like to see any archetypes for the Unchained Monk, beyond the 2 (or 3?) recent Classic Monk archetypes that have been made to be compatible also with Unchained Monk, that are almost impossible to find. (And the one that I can find, Serpent-Fire Adept, is not at all clear to me how to use -- might have something good in it, but I can't tell.)

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