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I am looking for some feedback on optimizing a melee/support cleric build. Here is the build:
LG Versatile Human Cleric of Shizuru (+2 Str & Wis)
Traits: Reactionary and Fate's Favored
Domains: Heroism and Archon (Good)
Str: 17 (+1 at 4th)
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 17 (+1 at 8th)
Cha: 7
1st) Heavy Armor Prof.
3rd) Improved Init.
5th) Power Attack
7th) Sacred Summons
9th) Quicken Spell (for quickened divine favor)
11th) Divine Interference
At 1st through 4th level, this character can buff with bless, heal if needed, and serve in an off-hand tank capacity using a katana.
At 5th level, he will regularly use heroism (likely with a lesser metamagic extend rod) on himself or an ally when appropriate. He will also be able to supplement bless with prayer for longer battles.
At 7th level, he can summon a hound archon as melee assistance using a standard action. Unfortunately, there appears to be no room for augment summoning. He also gains the excellent blessing of fervor buff.
At 8th level, two powerful new abilities come online, which are the focus of the build. He can give a heroism effect to all allies within 30 feet as a swift action. As a standard action, he can activate his aura of menace ability to debuff enemies. With both abilities active, all allies within 30 feet attacking enemies within 30 feet will get an effective +4 to hit (due to the aura of menace debuff to AC).
At 9th level, he will be able to quicken divine favor for +4 to hit and damage (with fate's favored). Also, he should have boots of speed at this time.
At 11th level, divine interference will provide an additional defensive option. Also using a ring of summoning affinity, he will be able to summon a legion archon as a standard action.
I am also considering an alternate build that would allow for augment summoning.
If Quickened Divine Favor is a part of you plan, how about taking the extra traits feat for Wayang Spell Hunter (Metamagic master of d20pfsrd) & Magical Lineage? This way it's only a 3rd level spell when quickenened. Possibly worth it instead of Sacred Summons, as you're missing Augment Summons.
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I recommend a Reach based Evangelist Cleric. It really has good damage and amazing Action economy. Plus Bardic Performance is hard to beat Buff wise. Especially since it works on your summons. Leaving More spells for Fixing Problems and Healing. By 8th level you can: Standard Action Sacred summon, Move action- Inspire Courage, and Swift action- Heroism Domain power. Now your summon and you are ready to tear apart things apart....As is the REST of your team. You would need to tweek your feats slightly and your point buy. But not too much mind you.
Another option is the Crusader Archetype. Which is much more Combat focused with some bonus feats. But there are better domains to be paired with as a crusader.
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Corvino, that is an interesting idea. I don't know that I would use the feat, but magical lineage could get it down to 4th level, which would help.
Fruian, I am familiar with the Evangelist archetype, but I think it works best for those without the Heroism subdomain, as both inspire courage and heroism provide morale bonuses. I also dislike the wonky spontaneous spell list and armor and weapon limitations. I don't think it is the right choice for a battle cleric, even with reach weapons. It might work for a summoning focused build. The Crusader gives up too much for too little in my opinion.
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Renegade, I looked at the Crusader archetype but just was not sold. While it would give a few more feats, it would lose the synergy of the Archon and Heroism domains due to the loss of one domain. The loss of one spell a level is simply devastating. As far as the katana, my plan would be to make it keen anyway.
As far as dual talent, I am on the fence about that myself. I am certain that, based upon prior experience, I want at least three skill points per level, which is easier with a regular human. On the other hand, I want to be able to reach a 22 wis (needed for a bonus 6th level spell) by 11th level without going higher than a +4 headband. At 36,000gp, the +6 headband would crowd out a number of important purchases.
Inspire courage is a competence bonus not morale.
No need for apologies! I just had to point that out to our Bard as well. So more buffs for all, Huzzah. :-)
IMO if you have a strong battle focus then you would be much better off with a Warpriest. If however you are primarily support then cleric is a much better bet.
I think the days of 'Battle Clerics' are over. As you level up trying to hit things productively with a physical weapon becomes increasingly inefficient.
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IMO if you have a strong battle focus then you would be much better off with a Warpriest. If however you are primarily support then cleric is a much better bet.
I think the days of 'Battle Clerics' are over. As you level up trying to hit things productively with a physical weapon becomes increasingly inefficient.
Warpriest is great Levels 1-12
Beyond that they get Dwarfed by a well built Cleric. They can not compete to the power of a 9th level caster.
The warpriest isn't bad mind you but (as I believe) it truly was a class designed for PFS play. But By level 11 the Cleric is 2 spell levels above the warpriest and still rocketing in power while the warpriest starts slowing down.
But really its up to the OP and the adventure they will be playing.
But if your going Level 12+ I recommend sticking to Cleric.
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Ok that's fair, may I ask why you want your wisdom so high though? Support clerics rarely need a high DC and you have more than enough to get you by on your entire PFS career without a single item, buff, or tome. Did I miss something?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, my desire is to have at least a 22 WIS at 11th level so that I will have a bonus sixth level spell. I also don't want to have to resort to a +6 headband to do so because they are so expensive. With spells such as heal, harm, and Monster Summoning VI, I believe sixth level spells are worth having as many of as possible.
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IMO if you have a strong battle focus then you would be much better off with a Warpriest. If however you are primarily support then cleric is a much better bet.
I think the days of 'Battle Clerics' are over. As you level up trying to hit things productively with a physical weapon becomes increasingly inefficient.
I disagree that "Battle Clerics" are not viable these days. At 9th level for example, the character will have a BAB of +6, assuming a +4 strength item a +6 to hit from strength, assuming an extended heroism is up a +2 morale bonus to hit, using a quickened divine favor a +4 (fate's favored) luck bonus to hit and damage, using boots of speed gives a +1 sped bonus to hit, and assuming a +1 keen weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. That is a +20 for 1d8 + 14 damage (15-20 x2). Using power attack, that is a +18 for 1d8 + 20 (15-20 x2) damage.
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IMO if you have a strong battle focus then you would be much better off with a Warpriest. If however you are primarily support then cleric is a much better bet.
I think the days of 'Battle Clerics' are over. As you level up trying to hit things productively with a physical weapon becomes increasingly inefficient.
I don't see how the days of the battle cleric are over. Warpriest might make a feat intensive build a little easier, stuff like archery or two weapon fighting. But a cleric built for strength with a 2 handed weapon, or at least wielding a one handed weapon in both hands, is just as powerful as it always has been. Which is to say, pretty damn powerful. And quicken divine favor does a lot to invalidate the warpriest's advantage in fervor.
The issue is that a Battle Cleric ends up spending all of its time, money, skills, feats... etc on becoming a second rate warrior at the expense of its best quality.... 9th level casting!
The Warpriest is set up from the outset to gain synergy between its fighting ability and its spell list.... when a cleric tries this it falls short - so much investment. Battle Oracles also do a better job.
Once a cleric gains 4th level spells, THAT should be the priority, not attempting to hit things like a 2nd rate warrior!!!
If you REALLY want to hit things.... play a warrior!
The battle priests are not what they once were due to several changes in PF.
- Buffs don't last as long and there are no ways to keep them on forever like you could with the Persistent Spell feat in 3.5. So you have to spend rounds of buffing before you are semi-effective (I played one next to two melees). If you cannot choose when a fight starts, you are stuck with 3 rounds of buffs, one round of closing in and can deliver an attack in rounds 5 and 6. By then most fights are over.
- You have to spend a feat or dip into a melee class to get back heavy armor.
- You can often get a martial weapon by picking your deity, but not always, if you are set on a specific one for the domains. That may cost another feat.
- You get no bonus feats at all like many other classes, and you have to spend 1-2 to get on par already. So you have to neglect either your spells or your melee build.
I found that the big issue is the loss of actions in combat, since I more often than not could not buff before it started.
The war domain and the oracle (battle) can get around some of the problems, but they still have to use buffs if they want to hit something for enough damage to make it count.
The warpriest gets several advantages here. He has the martial weapons and heavy armor from the start and he gains a big advantage with sacred weapon and fervor over the other divine casters, since those are swift actions. He also gets weapon focus for free plus what all divine casters lack: bonus feats to spend on a melee build. So if your purpose is to do mostly melee and have a couple of spells as backup, the class is pretty good.
Back to the OP :)
If you plan to spend time at the frontlines, I recommend Combat Casting. Since you are human and have only one feat at 1st level, that could fit in there. Without this +4 it is pretty unsafe to cast defensively your high spells, and you will probably have to do it sooner or later. While you can often do a 5' step and cast, sometimes you cannot, since the enemy has reach or the space doesn't allow it.
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The battle priests are not what they once were due to several changes in PF.
- Buffs don't last as long and there are no ways to keep them on forever like you could with the Persistent Spell feat in 3.5. So you have to spend rounds of buffing before you are semi-effective (I played one next to two melees). If you cannot choose when a fight starts, you are stuck with 3 rounds of buffs, one round of closing in and can deliver an attack in rounds 5 and 6. By then most fights are over.
- You have to spend a feat or dip into a melee class to get back heavy armor.
- You can often get a martial weapon by picking your deity, but not always, if you are set on a specific one for the domains. That may cost another feat.
- You get no bonus feats at all like many other classes, and you have to spend 1-2 to get on par already. So you have to neglect either your spells or your melee build.I found that the big issue is the loss of actions in combat, since I more often than not could not buff before it started.
The war domain and the oracle (battle) can get around some of the problems, but they still have to use buffs if they want to hit something for enough damage to make it count.
The warpriest gets several advantages here. He has the martial weapons and heavy armor from the start and he gains a big advantage with sacred weapon and fervor over the other divine casters, since those are swift actions. He also gets weapon focus for free plus what all divine casters lack: bonus feats to spend on a melee build. So if your purpose is to do mostly melee and have a couple of spells as backup, the class is pretty good.Back to the OP :)
If you plan to spend time at the frontlines, I recommend Combat Casting. Since you are human and have only one feat at 1st level, that could fit in there. Without this +4 it is pretty unsafe to cast defensively your high spells, and you will probably have to do it sooner or later. While you can often do a 5' step and cast, sometimes you cannot, since the enemy has reach or the space...
If you look at my +18/+20 to hit calculation above (which is very comperable to a martial of the same level), it assumes only one long term buff, heroism. Activating boots of speed is a free action and the quickened divine power is a swift, so this build is fully ready for combat at round 1. As a worst case scenario, the aura of heroism can be activated as a swift action on the second round of battle if heroism has not been pre-cast.
The concentration check issue bothers me as well. Because I have taken care to maintain the casting ability of this build (including spells requiring saves), it only makes sense to be able to effectively use these spells. My assumption was that this would be solved by magic items, notably spellguard bracers and gloves of elvenkind. Perhaps this area requires even more attention.
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Battle clerics have 3 setbacks that need working.
MAD,str, wis , con, some cha is hard.
Party expect you to heal if you channel possitive.
Time taken to boost.
Easy fix :
Channel negetaive, rose channel smite and guided hand and focus on wisdom, you now can switch hit , spells and melee .
Now the time for boost, my 2 domains are feather and heroism , or feather and trade .
Lvl 1, channel smite and guided hand, with wisdom of 17 you hit well. Channels smite add some damage.
Lvl 3, power attack.
Lvl 5 boon companion
Lvl 7, imp share spells.
You buff 2 rounds the pet, adding the same effect on you. You tiger/ roc / whatever. Attack, buffed and strong, while you build up power.
Than, you switch as your pet is healed and moved back.
Lvl9, sacred summons
Lvl 11&13 argument summonYour casting ability is super high, you to hit is great. Damage is ok only but pet is there to balance the score.and you are a full lvl caster, with heroism aura and more.
Unfortunately, there is no PFS deity that mixes the heroism and the animal domains (including any subdomain, such as feather). As far as an animal companion build, I am well aware of how well these work. I even have a grandfathered aasimar dedicated to such a build (there is a feat that allows an aasimar to give his companion the celestial template). That being said, such a build is really beyond the scope of what I am trying to do here, which Is create a character that can buff sort of like a bard, serve well as a divine caster, and personally perform reasonably well in melee when required. The summoning is designed to help kind of like a buff, maybe to create a flanker for the fighter, not necessarily as a primary combatant.
That being said, such a build is really beyond the scope of what I am trying to do here, which Is create a character that can buff sort of like a bard, serve well as a divine caster, and personally perform reasonably well in melee when required. The summoning is designed to help kind of like a buff, maybe to create a flanker for the fighter, not necessarily as a primary combatant.
If this is your stated aim then an Evangelist Cleric with the Heroism domain, Armor Expert trait to permit a Mithral Breastplate and built as a Reach Cleric using a Longspear is pretty much the best fit. It's already been suggested, and with good reason. You buff amazingly, summon well and fight/cast/heal competently. There are more powerful individual builds but in terms of team support few can touch this.
Battle Cleric is still a very solid option when done well. Divine Favor + Fate's Favored goes beyond overcoming just the BAB gap. If a Barbarian using Rage and Power Attack with a two-handed weapon at level 9 is "9BAB +2STR -3PA = +8" base attack and "+3STR +9PA = +12" damage, a similar Cleric with Divine Favor and Power Attack is "6BAB +4DF -2PA = +8" base attack and "+4DF +6PA = +10" damage.
Guided Hand is a really great option on a lot of builds, but it's not always better than going Dual Talent Human - Guided Hand does nothing for damage, so it's not at all a straight ability score savings.
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That being said, such a build is really beyond the scope of what I am trying to do here, which Is create a character that can buff sort of like a bard, serve well as a divine caster, and personally perform reasonably well in melee when required. The summoning is designed to help kind of like a buff, maybe to create a flanker for the fighter, not necessarily as a primary combatant.If this is your stated aim then an Evangelist Cleric with the Heroism domain, Armor Expert trait to permit a Mithral Breastplate and built as a Reach Cleric using a Longspear is pretty much the best fit. It's already been suggested, and with good reason. You buff amazingly, summon well and fight/cast/heal competently. There are more powerful individual builds but in terms of team support few can touch this.
I agree that this is an awesome pure support build, worthy of its own thread. However, my first attempt at a PFS battle cleric using a reach weapon resulted in the realization that enemies need only a 5ft step to crush you. What you describe is not really a battle cleric that can hold his own in melee, particularly without heavy armor or shield proficiency or weapon proficiency in the deity's favored weapon.
As far as summons are concerned, I have found that you generally need to use your highest level summoning spell to get an impact. That means you have at max 2 summons at any odd level and need to crowd out more useful spells to summon them. If you are just doing melee in a pinch, this could really work out though. You could even use your touch of good to further buff your summon each round. Not a bad idea but not exactly what I am looking for.
One other, similar option would be a split DEX/WIS Sarenrae Crusader Cleric 10/ Unchained Monk 1 using Dervish Dance and Crusader's Flurry. 17+ DEX and WIS plus free dodge is great AC, and Weapon Focus/ Power Attack/ Heroism/ Unchained Flurry is really potent with a scimitar. High wisdom also means that Aura of Doom and Instrument of Agony are really great for melee - Aura of Doom is pretty similar to activating Aura of Menace, only it's a 10min/level spell that will stack with other forms of the shaken condition.
Or, Shizuru opens up the ability to take the Gentle Rest Domain Power, which is crazy good with Domain Strike or a Conductive weapon.
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One other, similar option would be a split DEX/WIS Sarenrae Crusader Cleric 10/ Unchained Monk 1 using Dervish Dance and Crusader's Flurry. 17+ DEX and WIS plus free dodge is great AC, and Weapon Focus/ Power Attack/ Heroism/ Unchained Flurry is really potent with a scimitar. High wisdom also means that Aura of Doom and Instrument of Agony are really great for melee - Aura of Doom is pretty similar to activating Aura of Menace, only it's a 10min/level spell that will stack with other forms of the shaken condition.
Or, Shizuru opens up the ability to take the Gentle Rest Domain Power, which is crazy good with Domain Strike or a Conductive weapon.
I was unaware of Domain Strike, or, more importantly, the Conductive weapon property. Those are very interesting. Holding an enemy to one attack a round is one of the most powerful debuffs imaginable. Using attacks to do it is pure gravy.
The most absurd "debuffs-through-melee" thing I can remember stringing together was Hei-Feng Cleric/ Martial Artist 1, with Guided Hand and Conductive 9-ring broadsword flurry:
- Shaken condition through Aura of Doom (WIS DC).
- Chaos Touch through Conductive weapon (no save).
- Stunning Fist through Cornugon Stun / Mantis Style (WIS DC+2).
- Nauseated condition through Instrument of Agony (WIS DC w/ Chaos Touch).
Of course, using Stunning Fist and Instrument of Agony at the same time is overkill; if Stunning Fist fails, then reach for the agony.
Also, bonus: Protean Domain Aura of Chaos for laughs. And Separatist Cleric: Trickery Domain for Mirror Image and Confusion.
Storms of raging protean chaos indeed...