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I would love a Priest class who is essentially a wizard using the cleric spell list.
1/2 BAB, and 6+ skills/level with all of the knowledges present. Would require a lot of effort on new things to do with domains though.
Give them a familiar or divine bonded object, and access to some buff/battlefield control stuff like Haste, and maybe some blasty stuff taken from the druid list.
Could be awesome.
This...so much this. Back in 3.5 days, I wrote a variant class to the Cleric called the Priest. Basically, I wrote it as a 1/2 BAB class, light armor pro, simple weapons, no shields. I think it was 6+Int skills (all knowledges). The big difference was that I gave it 3 domains instead of 2 and allowed it to spontaneously cast from its domain spells in addition to its cure/inflict spells. Players loved it, and felt it was a much needed role of classic fantasy.
I'm not saying I would want to see a carbon copy of a more spellcaster-type cleric, but even that would be very nice.
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I'm starting to get the impression that the second most important rule of the message boards is "Remember the most important rule of the message boards."
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I've used priests in my games since 3.0 first came out and was reinforced by the WoW priest (cloth divine caster). Here are the key features:
They have d6 hit points, 1/2 BAB progression, only a good Will save, no armor or shield proficiency, simple weapons plus the deity's favored weapon, aura, channel energy (normal cleric progression), orisons, and spontaneous casting. Priests add half their level (minimum 1) to all damage healed or caused by channel energy.
Priests can spontaneously cast any cure/cause light wounds spell as well as any of their domain spells. This gives them a bit of an oracle feel, as they have a good amount of spontaneous options.
And that abundance of options derives from priests getting two domains at 1st level, plus another domain from their deity at 5th, 10th, and 15th level. If their deity doesn't have five domains, they can choose any domain that would thematically fit.
At 20th level, they get a capstone ability that supercharges one of their domains. The priest can now use the 1st level power of one of his domains an unlimited number of times per day.
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Given the number of people (eg me) who've made d6 half-BAB priests for 3.0, 3.5 and PF, and the general similarity between them, it's clearly a needed class and one that's fairly easy to design. It would be nice to have the official one, though. You can't do it as a hybrid, unless it's Cleric-Expert or something.
I don't feel a great need for a warpriest, personally. Got plenty already.
I'm starting to get the impression that the second most important rule of the message boards is "Remember the most important rule of the message boards."
I thought it was, "Never go up against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line!"
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I have to say, I'm actually pretty torn as to which I'd prefer to see. There's solid arguments every which way, but after writing them all out, I think I'm leaning towards warpriest.
-If the Warpriest has 4 levels of spellcasting, it'll basically be the "Paladin of any alignment" that we've all been hoping to see someday.
-The cleric spell list is full of enough save-or-suffer and summon spells that I suspect a warpriest would have its own, trimmed down spell list, likely including a few extra deity-specific gems.
-Favored weapons is a very flavorful part of the cleric rules that most players like to acknowledge but can't effectively focus on unless they picked their deity for the proficency. A warpriest would be the ideal candidate for favored-weapon-specific class abilities.
-The cleric, inquisitor, and paladin are all already martially-inclined divine charatcers. There isn't much a warpriest could do that one of these classes couldn't.
-The game doesn't have a 1/2 BAB, d6HD divine caster.
-The archetype of a pacifistic holy man who doesn't touch a weapon is long ingrained in our ideas of what "holy men" are.
-If the priest uses the cleric spell list (and it most likely would) then there's nothing a priest could do that a cleric who minmaxed for Wisdom couldn't do.
-The oracle has already showed us what happens when you take an existing class's spell list and graft it onto a different class. Most oracles I've seen struggle to find spells that they as spontaneous casters want from the cleric's list of situational cures and utility spells. The cleric list was written under the assumption that its spells were for a prepared caster. If the priest is a spontaneous caster, he'll have the same issues as the oracle. If not, then why is it a whole new class?
-While blasting is often considered a sub-par option for a spellcaster, wizards and sorcerers have plenty of support for it as a valid option. Divine spellcasters don't get any good blasts unless they're non-good enough to cast Inflict spells, and many GMs and parties expect divine casters to be holy, not unholy, which means one of teh major things the wizard and sorcerer have over the cleric would still be denied the priest.
-One of the cleric's biggest advantages over the wizard, by contrast, is the durability and combat capability, balanced by a wizard's more robust spell list. The priest, by contrast, fails to impress compared to the wizard unless the class feature it trades its armor proficiency for is a good one indeed.
I think the poster just above me made an excellent point--having played Oracles and struggled to find relevant spells for "all the time" usage (especially from the early levels, though I will admit Burst of Radiance has helped), it seems clear that the proposed "Priest" class would not be able to simply take the Cleric list wholesale.
They'd probably need some Divine blasts and control spells mixed in, which, well, is a lot of work. Maybe it could take a cue from the 3.5 Warlock and have some kind of divine blast as a hex style effect? Maybe some variation of Channeling?
I would think the Priest class just becomes a buff / debuff expert. Really no need to add divine blasts.
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Yes, a 1/2 BAB cleric-type would need something to do in between the rounds where they have useful spells.
Yes, a 1/2 BAB cleric-type would need something to do in between the rounds where they have useful spells.
To be fair, support clerics who build low Strength already have this conundrum, and it's usually filled with either picking domains that grant useful 3+Wis abilities that last throughout all levels or else flanking and aiding another, or both. For instance, my very first PFS character has Bit of Luck, which is extremely powerful at all levels, and then if she doesn't even want to spend one of her many uses of that, she flanks and aids.
Yes, a 1/2 BAB cleric-type would need something to do in between the rounds where they have useful spells.
this is why the 1/2BAB divine caster i made got extra granted powers (i think i said this before but it was almost like a cleric/oracle hybrid that got standard domains but also gained domain based revelation-like abilities as they leveled)
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I think the main problem with trying to make a Divine Caster with no armor is the fact that most of the buff/debuff spells are touch spells. So when you're next to the Fighter, buffing him up, you're a 5 ft step away from the bruiser smashing your face in.
I remember 3.5 had the Healer class, it was kinda a Paladin/Druid/Cleric mix where it had a code where it couldn't wear metal armor or something and could not refuse healing to anyone who asked.
The healer was weird, a simple weapon wielding character who couldn't use shields (by their vows) and had a very narrow selection of spells. They could get, I think, a unicorn companion, which was nice. They weren't anything like a "priest," they were really more like a melee character with an uber-focus on healing.
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Against Priests!: ** spoiler omitted **
All good points, which is why a prospective priest class would have to have better spells and/or class abilities. One easy path to take is to allow more than 2 domains and/or adding domain spells directly to the character's spell list (i.e. no domain slot).
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I'm a little sick of the d8 3/4 BAB classes, a few instant classics in the last few years notwithstanding.
I would love to see a prepared divine caster with no armor and 1/2 BAB. If anything, it's a niche that has never been filled and it would be a worthwhile challenge to design IMO.
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I don't think the War Priest by it's name should be overly combat oriented but more tactically oriented in arts of war. They should be controlling the battle field with spells and class features and they should be battle field healers. They should the experts in using terrain to their group advantage.
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Pretty sure SKR stated that the core concepts of the Hybrids aren't changing, only mechanics involved will.
Can't see a Fighter/Cleric ending up with 1/2 BAB.
The fighter/cleric concept is nice but right now I cnt see anyone take a warpriest over a pure cleric. In my opinion the WP is just bad and if it can't go away it needs to change. Much.
The cleric already can fight well after wasting rounds for buffing. Someone specialized in it should be able to without wasting time.
And all those gods with crappy favored weapons will never see warpriests.
To sum it up: I would prefer the warpriest over a priest but what we see now is no functional warpriest.
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I dont know what all the talk about a Priest being difficult to create is about..... there are loads of ways you could go about it.
Here are a few quick ideas....
Weapons - the Priest is forbidden to use any weapon except that of his deity (or a single specific type if unaligned). Any weapons created via spells are permitted. Feats cannot be acquired to assist in weapon use.
Armour - the Priest cannot wear armour - including via feats. Armour generated via spells is permitted. Wearing physical armour implies a lack of faith in the divine protection of their deity.
Saves: High Will and Fort (such is the strength of his faith and conviction, his body contains a resilience that belies its relatively fragility)
HP - D6
Skill points - 4 + Int
Multiclassing - the path of the Priest is hard and unforgiving and does not lend itself to multiclassing. Once a character receives the call of the Gods there can be no turning back.
If a character already has levels in another class, upon taking a level in Priest, the character must continue taking levels in Priest being forbidden from making further changes. If a character begins life a Priest, only other divine classes may be multiclassed and only then after Level 8.... such as that the Priest has proven his worth to his deity.
Domains: Several possibilities here...
a) Give access to 3 domains and to spontaneously cast domain spells
b) Stick with 2 domains but upgrade the abilities in terms of useage/damage/duration.... possibly via bonus metamagic feats.
Channeling - could stay the same or could go to D8's depending on the overall build..... possible Priest archetypes that vary on chanelling
Bonus abilities: these could be termed 'Interventions' or something similar... due to his lofty position, the Priest may request the direct intervention of his deity to assist himself or his party.
Possibilities include..... Interventions of Smiting, Healing, Domination, Resistance, Intimidation, Worship and Wrath
Essentially..... massively restricted in some aspects, but with true divine power in others!
The fun thing about a priest type is that you need to come up with some reason for their abilities not working in armor. 'cuz without ASF, who cares if you're proficient?
If I HAD to make a priest I'd make him as a cleric/monk hybrid. A full caster who gets wis to AC like a monk and only a really small selection of weapons.
And for the times between spells I'd give him a raised bonus from aid another to AC.
By priest type I meant "armor-less cleric".
And if your armorless cleric is able to wear armor for no real reason, then the balancing factor they relied on, not having armor!, sort of...goes away.
Having to take a dip to get armor proficiency for a full caster, or spending precious feats, is a balancing factor of its own.
Personally I'm not a fan of the current warpriest, and would prefer to see either a 1/2 BAB class that is more of a caster than the cleric, or a full-BAB, "paladin of all flavors" class. Adding some kind of speed-buffing like the magus's spell combat ability would help considerably as well. Right now I just don't see the design space for the warpriest as written. The inquisitor has the speed buffs that the warpriest needs, and is very similar.
I suppose I meant more along these lines:
You're a 1/2 BAB priest type. Your primary purpose is to cast spells. Compared to the cleric, your balancing factors are that you don't have 3/4ths BAB and you don't have armor proficiency. The former is irrelevant: You're going to be casting spells. That's why you chose this class. You aren't going to be wading into combat. You're a divine wizard.
The second one, well, you just take a look at what armor proficiency means: you take a penalty to attack rolls and Str/Dex based ability/skill checks equal to the ACP.
Well, OK. So, I don't plan on attacking with a weapon, so the penalty doesn't matter. I can just wind walk instead of climb.
Well, may as well put armor on as it doesn't really inconvenience me, and gives a huge boost to AC and survivability, especially once I get mithral breastplate.
So now our caster cleric, our divine wizard, is in armor because the penalties for nonproficiency don't matter to him. And there goes out balancing factor.
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I've always thought the current flavor for why you can't wear armor is weak sauce.
For arcane I would go with wearing armor interferes with your ability to connect with the arcane forces of the world. Arcane casters prefer to wear loose clothing, such as robes, to allow them maximum freedom of movement and access to the mystical forces that they call upon.
By that logic, the priest would be an easy step forward into them needing to be free of armor for similar reasons of connecting with their deity.
But again, I'm not sure how you would do it. It would definitely need a major centerpiece to make up for the change.
The penalty to attack rolls will apply to spells as well, though since those are touch attacks it will matter less.
A speed decrease is pretty unpleasant for a casting-focused character, as they need to be in position, and the cleric list doesn't have a whole lot of speed enhancers (those are mostly on the wizard and druid lists).
Still, I can see where you're coming from. I've never had anybody even consider wearing armor they weren't proficient with, so that's never come up for me.
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Still, I can see where you're coming from. I've never had anybody even consider wearing armor they weren't proficient with, so that's never come up for me.
The advice forums have ruined me :(
Still, I can see where you're coming from. I've never had anybody even consider wearing armor they weren't proficient with, so that's never come up for me.The advice forums have ruined me :(
Don't feel bad, man, they ruin everything.
The balancing factor is that with 1/2 BAB and d6 Hit Dice, you're not a melee monster, with or without armor.
The obvious solution is to make spellcasting for 'Priests' have a spell failure, but that's killing a very sacred cow.
Then again, Arcane Spell Failure is regularly ignored by magi, bards, spellblades, assassins, red mantis... It may not be quite as sacred as it once was?
It's more a thing for full casters, really.
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Priest. We already have Warpriests. They're called Clerics and Paladins.
Given that clerics and wizards have the same general number of spells per day, a Priest ought to have a sorcerer's number of spell slots per day. Yes/no?
As for Armor...
I too was thinking general nonproficiency would be fine, but yes, it doesn't have any direct drawback.
Faith in the Divine: Priests wearing armor can only cast half as many spells per day as prepared as they defy their god's protection.
Doesn't exactly cut it for the evil gods.
Armor of Faith: Priests are protected by their god rather than by the works of mortals. Whenever a Priest casts a spell that gives herself a bonus to armor class, no matter the type. Increase that amount by 1 if the priest isn't wearing any armor. At fourth level and every three levels thereafter, this bonus increases by one.
Yes, very Monk like, isn't it? Must be the robes. They're contagious.
I also think a Priest aught to have a way to cast what would be personal spells on other characters, as so many cleric buffs are self-only, having a half-babber get all those seems like a waste if they can't be used. I mean, certainly by all means waste them. There are plenty of arcane spells that don't make a lot of sense for half-babbers either. It's just that I'd like to see Divine Favour cast on an ally.
Is there any reason why the Shaman can't fit this 1/2 BAB, d6 HD mould? It's already super versatile with spellcasting and such, and even gets a familiar, so the combat abilities seem like a surprising addition.
Dingdingding! That's the solution, but it's fun to see people come up with their own ways of doing it in a way that makes sense for all gods.
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It seems like both Warpriests AND Priests will have to work to distinguish themselves from the already-existing classes.
For Priests, the challenge isn't just to distinguish it from the cleric and oracle, but also from the wizard and sorcerer. Personally, I think a new spell list seems like the best way to implement it. It isn't deity-specific (though deity-specific spells could be a major part of it), it solves the problem of a 1/2-BAB class having spells like Divine Favor and nothing to do with them, and even if the Priest does end up wearing armor and shrugging off the penalties, there's still a compelling reason to play a priest instead of a cleric.
As for what would be on a priest's spell list? Well, it seems like a priest should get domains, so domain spells obviously. An assortment of deity-specific spells would also be nice, so that a deity normally chosen by battle clerics (Gorum, I'm looking at you) would still hold appeal to a priest. I'd also like to see priest focus on AoE spells-- maybe something like the paladin's Rally Point spell, but with various different effects to appeal to different ideologies. Shelyn's "rally point" may grant a Charisma bonus to good creatures that pass through it, while Abadar's forces non-lawful creature to make a Will save or be staggered, and Urgathoa's rally point deals negative energy damage (and thus heals undead). Maybe at higher levels, the the radius of the point increases. There could be quite a lot of design space for spells like this, which would make a priest a battlefield controller in a way that a cleric or wizard can't really be.
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There's a priest write up (from third party book).... I use this in my campaigns...players enjoy it. Given that we already have a full BAB divine class, and two 3/4 classes, a 1/2 class is definitely called for IMHO.
You broke your link, and yes, such a thing is already open content for Pathfinder.