Pathfinder 2 Strategy Guide?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Yes, I'm sure that not every player needs to purchase an all up CRB to play pathfinder, which was the point I was responding to. For proof, please see every single iteration of 3.5, including PF1.

To play pathfinder sure but PF2? If all I'm going on is pathfinder and character creation rules and concise rundown of the three modes of play, rather than the actual rules, I'm going to try to take an attack of opportunity when someone moves out of a threatened square. If PF2 holds true to playtest not everyone can do that. How's a transitioning player to know that with their creation rules and concise rundown of three modes of play, not ruleset? Relying on 3.5 and Pathfinder knowledge tripped up every player I playtested with, more than once. How did we correct that? By looking up the rules. Rules that would not be thoroughly provided in character creation rules and concise run down of the three modes of play which you said is all transitioning players would need.


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Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


To play pathfinder sure but PF2? If all I'm going on is pathfinder and character creation rules and concise rundown of the three modes of play, rather than the actual rules, I'm going to try to take an attack of opportunity when someone moves out of a threatened square. If PF2 holds true to playtest not everyone can do that. How's a transitioning player to know that with their creation rules and concise rundown of three modes of play, not ruleset? Relying on 3.5 and Pathfinder knowledge tripped up every player I playtested with, more than once. How did we correct that? By looking up the rules. Rules that would not be thoroughly provided in character creation rules and concise run down of the three modes of play which you said is all transitioning players would need.

A handbook for players is for players who don't even want to read the rules for play. I don't think I've ever been at a game where at least one or two of the players don't even want to read the rules. They just want to play, and trust the other players to tell them how the game is played.


Shain Edge wrote:
A handbook for players is for players who don't even want to read the rules for play. I don't think I've ever been at a game where at least one or two of the players don't even want to read the rules. They just want to play, and trust the other players to tell them how the game is played.

If it’s for people who don’t want to read the rules, why would they buy a rulebook in the first place/why should Paizo make a book for them?


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dirtypool wrote:

If it’s for people who don’t want to read the rules, why would they buy a rulebook in the first place/why should Paizo make a book for them?

They might read the rules just enough to make a character, but not the rules on how to play the character with the game mechanics. In fact they might need help in making a character. Having just enough rules to make a character is this balance point of a 'Strategy Guide' which step by step shows the player how to make the character is all this sort of information this style of player wants.


Shain Edge wrote:
A handbook for players is for players who don't even want to read the rules for play. I don't think I've ever been at a game where at least one or two of the players don't even want to read the rules. They just want to play, and trust the other players to tell them how the game is played.

Wow!!! I didn't realise so many players would so adversely affect their own agency in game. Glad I don't play with them.


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Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


Wow!!! I didn't realise so many players would so adversely affect their own agency in game. Glad I don't play with them.

They aren't bad players, just more casual then you are seemingly willing to give a chance to play. They don't care about making every little detail the optimal damage/effect per round. They just want to hang out.

In fact, it is more likely that it is the 'GM' that will buy one or two of the books so that their Core Rules isn't the bottleneck of chargen. I actually do that in my games. I'm the one who buys, at least the initial, books. Usually two of the main rules. I'm the one who reads the rules, and helps the others learn them as we play.

I sort of know the type of players who would need this sort of book to get off the ground in gaming. You seem to be under the impression that any person who is unwilling to read 300+ pages of rules is unworthy to game at your table.


Shain Edge wrote:
Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


Wow!!! I didn't realise so many players would so adversely affect their own agency in game. Glad I don't play with them.

They aren't bad players, just more casual then you are seemingly willing to give a chance to play. They don't care about making every little detail the optimal damage/effect per round. They just want to hang out.

In fact, it is more likely that it is the 'GM' that will buy one or two of the books so that their Core Rules isn't the bottleneck of chargen. I actually do that in my games. I'm the one who buys, at least the initial, books. Usually two of the main rules. I'm the one who reads the rules, and helps the others learn them as we play.

I sort of know the type of players who would need this sort of book to get off the ground in gaming. You seem to be under the impression that any person who is unwilling to read 300+ pages of rules is unworthy to game at your table.

I'm so happy you can make a complete judgment on what I find worthy or unworthy Karnak. Because I'd rather play with someone who takes agency and the reigns of the game in hand has no bearing on whether I find some one worthy to play with me. What does that even mean, worthy to play with? Good conversation derail, though. Why would you even want to play a game without knowing the rules? I wouldn't even want to play Battleship without knowing the rules.


When my group of five players made the switch to PF1 - three of us bought books and two of us bought nothing. We shared the books. It worked just fine. Paizo doesn’t need to spend money producing a book for the niche of players you describe.


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I've been running Pathfinder for ten ears now, and have played with about 13 individuals during that time, in multiple groups and campaigns.

Of those 13 players, only two of them have actually cracked the Core Rulebook open for anything other than character generation. That big honking tome is just too much for some (perhaps many) people. The fact that the PF2 rulebook will be even bigger won't improve those odds.

I feel that huge rulebooks are one of the major stumbling blocks between people playing and not playing a game like Pathfinder. That fact that only one person has to actually read and understand the whole thing is a saving grace. If I could only play with other people who have read the whole CRB I would still be waiting for my first session.

As for the comparison between reading the rules here and the rules in battleship, the two games are only tangentially similar. As a game format, RPGs (especially crunchy ones like Pathfinder) share a lot more in common with videogames than boardgames.

In most videogames these days, you don't sit down and read an instruction manual before playing, you just start it up and trust that the game itself will teach you as you go. In the same way, many players are perfectly happy to sit down and trust the GM to explain and tutorialize things as they go.


So these 11 players who spent a decade playing a game and only ever used the CRB for character creation - not once in 10 years buying a level of a new class, or looking up their feats for Rules clarification - how many of them bought Strategy Guides?

If big core books are a huge stumbling block that prevents people from playing a game like Pathfinder - how do your account for the four years straight where Pathfinder was the number one selling RPG on the market - or the fact that it has remained number 2 by a country mile?


dirtypool wrote:

So these 11 players who spent a decade playing a game and only ever used the CRB for character creation - not once in 10 years buying a level of a new class, or looking up their feats for Rules clarification - how many of them bought Strategy Guides?

Those people who always relied on me for information? None of them. They were happy for me to dig into my library and lay out the options for them.

Those two who did read the books also never payed Paizo for anything and used d20pfsrd or pirated copies of the PDFs when they wanted to look something up. They are my two power gamers who grab every resource at their disposal to optimize things and who I have to often pull back into line. Luckily they are in the same group so I can mostly just adjust the challenge rating upwards and everything works out.

dirtypool wrote:


If big core books are a huge stumbling block that prevents people from playing a game like Pathfinder - how do your account for the four years straight where Pathfinder was the number one selling RPG on the market - or the fact that it has remained number 2 by a country mile?

I'm not saying Paizo is a failing company who has to change their ways or die, or anything extreme like that. I'm just pointing out that in the current model they are missing out on potential customers. Someone who plays the game but doesn't buy anything isn't a customer. At best they are encouraging someone else (probably the GM) to continue to be a customer.

Paizo is doing well, they could do better. So could WotC, so could every RPG publisher.

There is a reason why videogames have gone from incredibly niche to a mass market thing, with multiple companies having brand-name household recognition, while I'm lucky if people even know what Dungeons & Dragons is when I try to strike up a conversation.

Again, doing well, still a lot of room for improvement.


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Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


I'm so happy you can make a complete judgment on what I find worthy or unworthy Karnak. Because I'd rather play with someone who takes agency and the reigns of the game in hand has no bearing on whether I find some one worthy to play with me. What does that even mean, worthy to play with? Good conversation derail, though. Why would you even want to play a game without knowing the rules? I wouldn't even want to play Battleship without knowing the rules.

You /litterally/ stated-

Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


Wow!!! I didn't realise so many players would so adversely affect their own agency in game. Glad I don't play with them.

"Glad I don't play with them."

How is anyone supposed to take your statement other then you wouldn't want to play with anyone who hasn't read every rule in the Core book before playing?

Rather then scaring a person off by handing them the Core Rule Book and saying, "Here, read this before you get into my game.", the equivalent to a college text book, wouldn't it be better to give them a much smaller book and say, "Follow the steps here, and you can make a character to play in my game. We will get into how to play when you are at my table."?

(What are you talking about 'Karnak'?)


I think the main point has gotten muddied and lost here a bit. Will Paizo eventually release a PF2 Strategy Guide? Sure, there's precedence. I don't know what the figures looked like for the PF1 book, but I don't see it being outside of the realm of possibility.

Will there be one at launch? I guess that's what this thread is about. To me, that seems strange. To release a book with all the rules for play and make that the bulk of your sales (hopefully, right?) and then have a trimmed down character creation version for... who?

I'd buy one, sure! But I also try and get my hands on every book that I can (a little tough living overseas, so bear in mind that some of us have to budget differently than most). Would any of my players? Absolutely not.

Like many people in this thread have noted, a large portion of PF players have a small set of books. If you're going to have books at all, you can bet that you'll have the Core Rulebook. Would you place a Strategy Guide as a "must have" alongside that? Probably not. All the more reason not to release that at launch. Sure, give it some time and have one appear down the line when people have given some feedback and the game has had some chance to develop.

For reference, most of my players (in the past) had Core Rulebooks and a handful of books or manuals that they found interesting or relevant. 99% of the books were owned by me, the GM. However, nearly everyone had a Core Rulebook. No one in my groups bought the Strategy Guide, despite it being marketed towards players. I was the only one who had a copy and it really just gathered dust.

I recognize that at the core of what I'm saying is a lot of anecdotal information. I don't have numbers for every table and I certainly don't know everyone's home table culture.


Shain Edge wrote:
Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


I'm so happy you can make a complete judgment on what I find worthy or unworthy Karnak. Because I'd rather play with someone who takes agency and the reigns of the game in hand has no bearing on whether I find some one worthy to play with me. What does that even mean, worthy to play with? Good conversation derail, though. Why would you even want to play a game without knowing the rules? I wouldn't even want to play Battleship without knowing the rules.

You /litterally/ stated-

Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


Wow!!! I didn't realise so many players would so adversely affect their own agency in game. Glad I don't play with them.

"Glad I don't play with them."

How is anyone supposed to take your statement other then you wouldn't want to play with anyone who hasn't read every rule in the Core book before playing?

Rather then scaring a person off by handing them the Core Rule Book and saying, "Here, read this before you get into my game.", the equivalent to a college text book, wouldn't it be better to give them a much smaller book and say, "Follow the steps here, and you can make a character to play in my game. We will get into how to play when you are at my table."?

(What are you talking about 'Karnak'?)

Glad I don't play with them does not equal unworthy to play with me. Where do you even get that correlation from? Not from anything I said. You quoted it above where is unworthiness even in there? Hint, it's not.

Karnak was a famous skit on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.


Lost In Limbo wrote:
None of them. They were happy for me to dig into my library and lay out the options for them.

So your players you were holding up as example aren’t a good example for the need of the SG. If they’re the kind of player who wouldn’t buy a PF1 SG why would they buy a PF2 SG? Why should Paizo expend resources to design a book for the kind of player at your table when 11 out of 11 of them didn’t spend a dime.

Quote:
I'm not saying Paizo is a failing company who has to change their ways or die, or anything extreme like that. I'm just pointing out that in the current model they are missing out on potential customers.

Are you saying that the current model is small books and Paizo is missing out on customers because they have a big book? Because three small core books was what the other guy did for decades before Pathfinder hit the market. It became number 1 in a climate where smaller multivolume cores were what the competition did. Why should they adapt to be more like that same competition?

Quote:
Paizo is doing well, they could do better. So could WotC, so could every RPG publisher.

The industry is doing better today than it has at any point in its history.

Quote:
There is a reason why videogames have gone from incredibly niche to a mass market thing,

Yeah and it has nothing to do with the size of the games Core Rulebook. Also videogames were never niche, they’ve been mass market properties since Pong.

Quote:
I'm lucky if people even know what Dungeons & Dragons is when I try to strike up a conversation.

More people are aware of D&D today than at any point since the satanic panic. So the problem might be who you’re trying to talk to


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There is something that would delay the PF2 strategy guide: The fact that one of PF2's design goals was to make it unnecessary. That one might be a bit of a stretch, as the playtest rules clearly failed to meet this goal and we won't know whether the actual PF2 rules would make such a book unnecessary until at least a couple of months after the new core rulebook is released. Then they have to find the next open spot in their future release schedule to slot it in.

Given the evident complexity of this game, I would be very surprised if they come to the conclusion that such a book is unnecessary -- but it would be a pleasant surprise if the general consensus turns out to be that it isn't needed.


Quote:
one of PF2's design goals was to make it unnecessary. That one might be a bit of a stretch, as the playtest rules clearly failed to meet this goal

Regardless of the scaling that went into the Proficiencies as the playtest went on, I felt that the character creation rules were simple, concise, well laid out, and lead to a relatively quick build when compared with PF1. There was no constant flipping back and forth... in that regard I think it's far from a failure.


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Well, I do recall seeing in the playtest review comments that people were having trouble finding some of the character creation rules.

So I would have to rate the playtest version a failure for that goal, even if it was better than PF1.

And do remember that one of the things they said they were going to do was reorganize the relevant sections, so it is clear that they didn't quite get there during the playtest.


David knott 242 wrote:

Well, I do recall seeing in the playtest review comments that people were having trouble finding some of the character creation rules.

So I would have to rate the playtest version a failure for that goal

Someone not being able to find them doesn't mean the playtest failed to make it clearer, it just mean that that person wasn't able to find them... which given the layout of that book I'm curious how someone failed to find them.

Quote:

And do remember that one of the things they said they were going to do was reorganize the relevant sections, so it is clear that they didn't quite get there during the playtest.

They did reorganize the relevant sections. PF1 Character Advancement rules appear at the beginning of the Classes section, in PF2 it appears at the end of the Creation sections. In PF1 Magic and Spells appear two chapters after creation rules end and in PF2 they're right in line after Equipment

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