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I was chatting with a friend tonight and he was puzzled as to Elvanna's motivations in RoW - not in trying to freeze Golarion, but as to what she had to gain by doing so. And we honestly couldn't figure out what she had to gain... but did realize there is one other character who in fact had the perfect motivation and may in fact be the mastermind behind the entire plot.
That being our old Mad Monk, Rasputin himself.
Think for a moment... when we come across Rasputin, what is he doing? He is trying to drain his mother's Mythic power and imbue it on himself. In fact, he's built a strange technomagical device that utilizes souls and the like in order to try and steal his mother's power.
Well, what if Rasputin had talked Elvanna into rebelling? Elvanna was already suspicious about her sisters. She couldn't find any evidence of them. Meanwhile we have Rasputin who, for some bizarre reason, keeps coming back from the dead. What if he had his own life essence drained by dear old mother? But he came back from the dead and then when he comes across Elvanna he fills in the missing pieces and Elvanna is suddenly wanting to kill their mother.
Rasputin doesn't want Baba Yaga dead. He wants to become God. So he needs to harvest a lot of energy... souls... to devour his mother's Mythic power. But Earth alone isn't enough. So he talks Elvanna into spreading Irrisen's winter across all of Golarion (as Rasputin was always said to be quite charismatic) and plans on using the souls of Golarion along with those of Earth to finally pull Baba Yaga's power from her and claim it for himself.
I'm contemplating an "after-the-end" with Elvanna fleeing the end of RoW (as there's another module set for level 17 characters involving Elvanna and her plots) but at the end the group finds Elvanna herself has been snared in another plot of Rasputin's - a posthumous effort to ensure he is brought back using a certain Demon Lord's torq and his sister's life in sacrifice. Because let's face it. Rasputin was a far far more interesting and enjoyable villain than Elvanna ever was... and having him be the puppetmaster behind everything makes more sense than Ms. "I want the world to freeze"
If it doesn't benefit her to turn the world to a winter wonderland, then what is Rasputin going to say to convince her to do it?
Rasputin is incredibly charismatic. Don't forget, the RL version of the man basically charmed his way into the royal family through the force of his personality alone, and was convincing the royals to do things that he wanted them to.
That said, he probably played onto Elvanna's ego. First, he tells her about Baba Yaga's attempt to devour his essence and how this is what Baba Yaga has in store for Elvanna and her children. Second, he says that by working together, they can overthrow Baba Yaga and that they will be able to "share" Baba Yaga's power but only if certain things get done - a lot of death is needed to empower his magitech to strip away Baba Yaga's near-divinity. He may even express it as "intellectual curiosity" as to if it could be done. Finally, he points out "Baba Yaga could have frozen the entire world if she wanted... but she gave up." In short, by expanding winter across all of Golarion Elvanna is able to do what Baba Yaga "couldn't" do - freeze the entire world.
Also, it doesn't matter if it benefits her or not. What matters is this: does she believe it will benefit her? If so... if she drinks her brother's Koolaid, then that can explain what's going on here.
And again, Rasputin was a far far more interesting and intriguing antagonist for the group than Elvanna. All she is is an end-boss that you never actually run into until the end. Compare that to Karzoug in Runelords or other truly memorial villains... including Rasputin himself in Book 5 of RoW, who is a constant threat for the PCs.
I'm contemplating an "after-the-end" with Elvanna fleeing the end of RoW (as there's another module set for level 17 characters involving Elvanna and her plots) but at the end the group finds Elvanna herself has been snared in another plot of Rasputin's - a posthumous effort to ensure he is brought back using a certain Demon Lord's torq and his sister's life in sacrifice. Because let's face it. Rasputin was a far far more interesting and enjoyable villain than Elvanna ever was... and having him be the puppetmaster behind everything makes more sense than Ms. "I want the world to freeze"
/QUOTE]I have both the RoW AP and the Witchwar Legacy module, but no immediate chance to run them myself. However, when I eventually do so, I'd like to link them up too.
Is your plan that Elvanna resurrects Rasputin, who then kills her, or that she tries to use the torc, but Rasputin's ghost/whatever interferes and uses both torc and Elvanna to resurrect himself? Or a completely different idea?
I'm contemplating an "after-the-end" with Elvanna fleeing the end of RoW (as there's another module set for level 17 characters involving Elvanna and her plots) but at the end the group finds Elvanna herself has been snared in another plot of Rasputin's - a posthumous effort to ensure he is brought back using a certain Demon Lord's torq and his sister's life in sacrifice. Because let's face it. Rasputin was a far far more interesting and enjoyable villain than Elvanna ever was... and having him be the puppetmaster behind everything makes more sense than Ms. "I want the world to freeze"
I have both the RoW AP and the Witchwar Legacy module, but no immediate chance to run them myself. However, when I eventually do so, I'd like to link them up too.
Is your plan that Elvanna resurrects Rasputin, who then kills her, or that she tries to use the torc, but Rasputin's ghost/whatever interferes and uses both torc and Elvanna to resurrect himself? Or a completely different idea?
I'm not entirely sure yet. Having him return in all his glory while draining Elvanna of her power and life essence would be quite dramatic (and reminiscent of what Baba Yaga had in mind for Elvanna) and would allow the grandiose return of a far more memorable foe... but his "working with" Elvanna and then stabbing her in the back at an opportune time would also work.
To be honest, my group is taking its time with this... we're lucky if we get through two encounters a night and meet every other week (usually). So even if I start cutting unnecessary content (stuff unrelated to the plot - I tend to level up on fiat so "missing out" on experience isn't a big thing) it's likely going to be another three or more years before we get to Book 6... and that doesn't include a plan of mine to incorporate the third-party mid-level campaign "Wrath of the Jotunn" which will add even more to the game.
Of course, as the players learn the system more and get to know their characters better, things might speed up. But even so, I still likely will have quite some time to make up my mind.
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If it doesn't benefit her to turn the world to a winter wonderland, then what is Rasputin going to say to convince her to do it?Rasputin is incredibly charismatic. Don't forget, the RL version of the man basically charmed his way into the royal family through the force of his personality alone, and was convincing the royals to do things that he wanted them to.
That said, he probably played onto Elvanna's ego. First, he tells her about Baba Yaga's attempt to devour his essence and how this is what Baba Yaga has in store for Elvanna and her children. Second, he says that by working together, they can overthrow Baba Yaga and that they will be able to "share" Baba Yaga's power but only if certain things get done - a lot of death is needed to empower his magitech to strip away Baba Yaga's near-divinity. He may even express it as "intellectual curiosity" as to if it could be done. Finally, he points out "Baba Yaga could have frozen the entire world if she wanted... but she gave up." In short, by expanding winter across all of Golarion Elvanna is able to do what Baba Yaga "couldn't" do - freeze the entire world.
Also, it doesn't matter if it benefits her or not. What matters is this: does she believe it will benefit her? If so... if she drinks her brother's Koolaid, then that can explain what's going on here.
And again, Rasputin was a far far more interesting and intriguing antagonist for the group than Elvanna. All she is is an end-boss that you never actually run into until the end. Compare that to Karzoug in Runelords or other truly memorial villains... including Rasputin himself in Book 5 of RoW, who is a constant threat for the PCs.
The idea is decent, . I'm just throwing it questions to develop the idea.
How do the souls of people dying of cold, starvation, and war on Golarion get to Rasputin? Is he doing something similar on Earth?
Are you keeping Rasputin as an oracle or changing him to one of the psychic classes similar to the contest? I really want to switch him over, but the loss of miracle is pretty devastating. He relies on that spell quite a bit in setting up the events of Book 5.
If it doesn't benefit her to turn the world to a winter wonderland, then what is Rasputin going to say to convince her to do it?Rasputin is incredibly charismatic. Don't forget, the RL version of the man basically charmed his way into the royal family through the force of his personality alone, and was convincing the royals to do things that he wanted them to.
That said, he probably played onto Elvanna's ego. First, he tells her about Baba Yaga's attempt to devour his essence and how this is what Baba Yaga has in store for Elvanna and her children. Second, he says that by working together, they can overthrow Baba Yaga and that they will be able to "share" Baba Yaga's power but only if certain things get done - a lot of death is needed to empower his magitech to strip away Baba Yaga's near-divinity. He may even express it as "intellectual curiosity" as to if it could be done. Finally, he points out "Baba Yaga could have frozen the entire world if she wanted... but she gave up." In short, by expanding winter across all of Golarion Elvanna is able to do what Baba Yaga "couldn't" do - freeze the entire world.
Also, it doesn't matter if it benefits her or not. What matters is this: does she believe it will benefit her? If so... if she drinks her brother's Koolaid, then that can explain what's going on here.
And again, Rasputin was a far far more interesting and intriguing antagonist for the group than Elvanna. All she is is an end-boss that you never actually run into until the end. Compare that to Karzoug in Runelords or other truly memorial villains... including Rasputin himself in Book 5 of RoW, who is a constant threat for the PCs.
The idea is decent, . I'm just throwing it questions to develop the idea.
How do the souls of people dying of cold, starvation, and war on Golarion get to Rasputin? Is he doing something similar on Earth?
Are you keeping Rasputin as an oracle or changing him to one of the psychic classes similar...
I'll keep him as an Oracle. I do not like the "Occult" rules. If you're going to do psionics you do it right. You don't turn it into a reskinning of the Pathfinder magic system with its own magic missiles "spell" and the like.
You do have a good point on how the other souls are getting to Rasputin. But I can set the groundwork early - the device in the Winter Portal that is helping generate the Portal will be a device of Rasputin's and uses the Portals themselves to draw souls of the dead in and then send them to Earth. As for on Earth itself, Rasputin is using the Great War itself (and has set up for its sequel by manipulating certain people of power using his magic remotely to ensure war happens) to empower his Ascension into Godhood.
If it takes every life in Golarion and Earth to do so? That's a small loss to him. He'll be a God after all.
Stuff
Originally I would agree with you on occult but I've come around. I really like the flavor, reminds me of Blades in the Dark a little. I guess just don't expect occult to really be proper psionics, Dreamscarred and other 3pp has pretty faithfully recreated that so there's not a reason for Paizo to reinvent the wheel.
Btw I love the idea that Rasputin is using the Great War to mimic what's happening on Golarion.
But whether you have her be the final boss or betrayed by Rasputin, has anyone built up Elvanna other than what's in the book? Because having Rasputin pop out and drain her makes her appearance even more of a footnote.
Regardless I'll be stealing this idea though I may have my party fight both Elvanna and Rasputin (with some CR adjustment).
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StuffOriginally I would agree with you on occult but I've come around. I really like the flavor, reminds me of Blades in the Dark a little. I guess just don't expect occult to really be proper psionics, Dreamscarred and other 3pp has pretty faithfully recreated that so there's not a reason for Paizo to reinvent the wheel.
Btw I love the idea that Rasputin is using the Great War to mimic what's happening on Golarion.
But whether you have her be the final boss or betrayed by Rasputin, has anyone built up Elvanna other than what's in the book? Because having Rasputin pop out and drain her makes her appearance even more of a footnote.
Regardless I'll be stealing this idea though I may have my party fight both Elvanna and Rasputin (with some CR adjustment).
Oh, she'll be a major boss fight for the end of Book 6... it's just that she is going to escape at the last moment thus allowing the Witchwar Legacy be the final chapter of Elvanna (and Rasputin).
Then again, I do plan on a few other modifications in the game. For instance, I'm going to include Elvanna's forces in Books 3 and 4 so that the group doesn't just feel like it's a plotkey quest but that this world-encompassing threat is real. Because while I love the concept of Reign of Winter... there are problems with it.
The fact Elvanna is an afterthought for Book 6 is just the icing on the cake. You also have the fact that after Book 2, Irrisen and its plots are forgotten. The cold weather in Book 3? Completely unrelated to Elvanna. And hell, it would be fascinating if we had come across signs of the White Witches in Book 4, perhaps "harvesting" the cold of the planet. Book 5 could have had more obvious links between Elvanna and Rasputin.
But none of that happened. Reign of Winter is 3.5 disparate parts, with Elvanna's plots only being important in Books 1, 2, and the last half of Book 6. Sure, part of it is this was never about Elvanna and was all about Baba Yaga but... it could have been better crafted for a more contiguous story.