Are Attacks of Opportunity too powerful?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


Recently got into a discussion with my gaming group about AoO and how some of them don't like how they interrupt the flow of combat and some characters can make them really busted.

Case in point, I run a swashbuckler. Currently built for two weapon fighting and taking advantage of 10' reach+ Attacks of Opportunity, especially with Parry and Riposte.

All ready they think swashbuckler is crazy powerful

(even after two combats where I was 5hp from death. The last combat my luck was horrible. Rolling 1s, rerolls into 1s, my Parry rolling an 18 or 19 being beaten not once, but twice by a natural d20 roll. Couldn't get a crit or kill a thing to save my life or dwindling panache, got grappled and couldn't roll decent to escape artist out...)

Cough, so anyhow, that aside my DM was quick to shutdown a new feat I wanted to take at level 7.

In the new Chronicles of Legends book, there's a feat:

Surprising Strategy (Combat)
Source Chronicle of Legends pg. 9
Your quick swordsmanship leaves your opponents struggling to predict your moves.

Prerequisites: Riposte class feature.

Benefit: In addition to the attack of opportunity you can make when you successfully parry an attack, you can attempt a dirty trick, disarm, or sunder combat maneuver with a +2 morale bonus without provoking an attack of opportunity against the creature whose attack you parry, so long as the creature is within reach.

I looked at this and was like "heckin awesome, I can do some really fun Zoro flavor with this."

I liked the flavor enough I thought of taking it over my previous choice when I reach 7th level, improved two weapon fighting.

In my mind, the effect of this feat, while nice, is still not better than an an extra attack you can make actively on your turn (which can also be manuvers and I can get around provoking by having longer reach)

But, that's not how my gaming group sees it. They think it's way too powerful a feat given to an already way too powerful class.

I don't see it... But maybe I'm wrong?

Is this feat overpowered for two weapon fighting saashbuckler? Are Attacks of Opportunity and abilities that key off them too powerful?

What's your thoughts?


Does your DM know that the monsters can make an acrobatics roll against CMD (if they move half speed, CMD +10 if full speed) to avoid the most likely AoO?

Does he also know that spell attacks and any ranged attack won't let you use your Party and Riposte?

Does your DM know what is critical immune and less than half your hit die, leaving you without panache and therefore unable to use this ability? A swarm of slimes can destroy a swashbuckler.

Did you know you only get one attack per turn with Party and Riposte (it uses an immediate action not an attack of opportunity), and that means you lose your Swift action next turn?


AoOs are really powerful vs many small/mediums sized melee-enemies. They're mostly useless against anyone else. If you're fighting large enemies, or mostly ranged enemies, or even just one powerful medium-sized melee enemy you'll get a lot less use out of AoOs.

Swashbucklers have a mechanic that lets you get a bit more out of them, but Swashbucklers have plenty of weaknesses (low saves, no ranged capabilities without sinking a lot of feats, etc).

I think your group is overreacting, but maybe it's the GM not understanding how to counter these mechanics, or emphasize other aspects of the game.

Sovereign Court

You do know that a natural 20 doesn't auto beat your parry?

How are you getting 10' reach, Enlarge? The Swordmaster's Flair? Lunge? Using the flair means you can't be two weapon fighting, and Lunge is only during your own turn. Enlarge, well someone is either buffing you or you are buying a lot of potions.

Also, by two weapon fighting you don't get to add your level to damage rolls with precise strike at level 3.

The way I read Surprising Strategy is that it is saying in addition to the option of taking an AoO after you parry, you can also choose to Dirty Trick, Disarm or Sunder. Basically, give up your riposte to do a combat maneuver. And the language about the not provoking is basically saying you have the improved maneuvers for that specific situation.


Careful maneuvering avoids most AoOs (except those from OP&R). OP&R is good, but a swashbuckler doesn't have a lot of other great tricks. If your friends only remember the high points I guess it looks even better. If you write up a story or a summary of each session that might help with selective memory?

TWF is normally a poor idea for a swashbuckler - precise strike is a sizable damage bonus and it doesn't apply when you're using two weapons. It also sucks up feats and as you've just noticed, there are others you would like to take. Besides this one look at lunge just for a start.


Why are you two weapon fighting with a swashbuckler?


AoOs are funny.

In 3e/PF and 4e, AoOs seem too powerful. PCs will walk incredibly complex paths just to avoid triggering these, slowing down combat.

During the playtest for 5e, they took away AoOs. So of course monsters would just walk past the front line and kill the mage. They had to put them back in.

I don't understand how the OP can dual-wield 10 feet reach weapons. The vast majority of such weapons are two-handed. The whip isn't, but that's the only one I can think of. I guess an Enlarged dual-wielder (who would be suffering from reduced Dex) could do just that...


they can be. Mostly their annoying with how much of the game is rocket tag like.
I think they're stronger if you can add an effect. Something that stops them or a dirty trick. etc.

Pathfinde 2nd edition gated AOO so only certain classes/monsters have it. Which yeah things can go bast the front liners. But it does make combat a looot more dynamic. it also enforces the usefulness of some Combat manuevers. A trip is no longer just a thing. it is effectively helps mitigate the freedom of movement. I liked it.


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I believe that Surprising Strategy is reffering to the Riposte class feature of the Duelist PrC, not Opportune Parry and Riposte from the swashbuckler base class.


Kimera757 wrote:


I don't understand how the OP can dual-wield 10 feet reach weapons. The vast majority of such weapons are two-handed. The whip isn't, but that's the only one I can think of. I guess an Enlarged dual-wielder (who would be suffering from reduced Dex) could do just that...

Maybe they used a greater hat of disguise to turn into a sewer troll?


Lelomenia wrote:
Why are you two weapon fighting with a swashbuckler?

Maybe twf is his way of nerfing the Swashbuckler. On the other hand its perfectly possible to not free hand style and just not use Precise Strike. My personal favorite is greatsword parrying. The Azatariel archetype has no text specifying a single weapon when using Whimsical Riposte which places Precise Strike. This cannot be used with greatswords but it can allow two rapiers.

Errant Inlad wrote:
I believe that Surprising Strategy is reffering to the Riposte class feature of the Duelist PrC, not Opportune Parry and Riposte from the swashbuckler base class.

Good catch. If it was referring to Swashbuckler it would have said Deed not Class Feature


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To answer the question: no they’re not

Also like to point out plenty of things can’t be parried, like ranged attacks and spells and breath weapons. It’s not overpowered at all.

Also like to point out even less thing can be disarmed and sundered

Sounds like very knee jerk over reaction from your DM.


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Wait, so martials are enjoying a nice thing, and you want to take it away because it's "too powerful"?


Thunderlord wrote:
Errant Inlad wrote:
I believe that Surprising Strategy is reffering to the Riposte class feature of the Duelist PrC, not Opportune Parry and Riposte from the swashbuckler base class.
Good catch. If it was referring to Swashbuckler it would have said Deed not Class Feature

The same book has feats for the eldritch knight PrC, this makes sense of a kind. Though I'd thought duelist entirely redundant in the light of later material like the swashbuckler, maybe someone else doesn't think the same way.


the swashbuckler gain the "Opportune Parry and Riposte " deed.
not the duelist's "Riposte" class ablility

should you also take levels in said prestige class (gain at 5th level) then you might be able to take this feat.


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My first thought here was, why are you two weapon fighting on a swashbuckler?

You're losing Precise Strike, which is the biggest reason people play a swashbuckler.

As for the other bit, as others point out that feat probably isn't for Swashbucklers but for Duelists.

And even if it was, you can only make one Immediate action a round, so you can only perform one Riposte per round. And that doing so uses your swift action for the next round, though you still could use an Immediate that next turn. But there are a fair number of things that use an Immediate or Swift, and this tactic makes you unable to do those.


Kimera757 wrote:
I don't understand how the OP can dual-wield 10 feet reach weapons. The vast majority of such weapons are two-handed.

Nah, what you do is get a two-handed reach weapon made for a small-sized race; that means it's a one-handed weapon for a medium-sized creature. Then you can do two-weapon reach fighting with no disadvantages, except for massive attack penalties.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Kimera757 wrote:
I don't understand how the OP can dual-wield 10 feet reach weapons. The vast majority of such weapons are two-handed.
Nah, what you do is get a two-handed reach weapon made for a small-sized race; that means it's a one-handed weapon for a medium-sized creature. Then you can do two-weapon reach fighting with no disadvantages, except for massive attack penalties.

i would go with the traditional double-medium-gnome flickmace swashbuckler build, but either way you more or less lose parry/riposte along with precise strike.

Really, normally when I see a swashbuckler mention reach I assume a Flair is involved. But then, he’s a two weapon swashbuckler...


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Whatever else may be involved, getting a free dirty trick, disarm, or sunder isn't overpowered. I'd argue most of them are underpowered because they don't generally inflict damage and so just prolong a fight (leading to more risk overall) compared to dealing out damage. This, in effect, gives you a chance at using a maneuver and inflicting normal damage but only if the creature provokes an AoO. In other words, finally the manuevers get something nice.


SorrySleeping wrote:
Does your DM know that the monsters can make an acrobatics roll against CMD (if they move half speed, CMD +10 if full speed) to avoid the most likely AoO?...

I had mentioned the downsides to AoOs and to the parry ability but the reaction they had was still that it's too powerful. I even mentioned that any enemy that's been in a fight once or twice and has some intelligence would understand threat ranges and how to try and avoid getting tagged.

But that being said I didn't emphasize my swift being eaten up or that certain enemies like half HD creatures can really f@$& with a swashbuckler. Even more so with my build depending on the creature type because I took the Whirling Dervish Archetype and can only get that panache on Non-lethal take downs which some enemies are immune to or resistant too because of DR.

Firebug wrote:

You do know that a natural 20 doesn't auto beat your parry?

How are you getting 10' reach, Enlarge? The Swordmaster's Flair? Lunge? Using the flair means you can't be two weapon fighting, and Lunge is only during your own turn. Enlarge, well someone is either buffing you or you are buying a lot of potions...

I actually didn't know natural 20's didn't auto succeed vs a parry! I just assumed because nat 20's auto succeed on attacks, that it would overcome what ever fancy parry I tried to do.

I'm using the Swordmaster's Flair primarily (though it's not entirely out of the question to use a wand of long arm or enlarge person, since Swashs have high charisma and could put a few points into UMD )

As for the flair though, the way I and my gaming group have come to understand it is because A) by RAW it's a slotless item and B) by RAI it's a piece of cloth which shouldn't impede using something in that hand, and how the wording is presented, it does not disallow the use of something else in that hand regardless. Just that you need to be grasping it in your hand.

Here's a sketch I did that shows how I picture it:
Jabari Seddik

I could be wrong about this ruling, but I honestly don't see it being too much a problem one way or the other. If for some reason spending a panache for 1 minute of reach is too strong for two weapon fighting, then I'll just have him learn to use a wand and max out UMD, he could probably auto succeed at this level on a DC 20 check.

As for the last two bits: I know precise strike doesn't work when using two attacks (though I can always choose to use just one weapon and get it, say when I'm fighting VS enemies with DR) but, I feel the benefits and what I want to do with this character outway the loss of precise strike. It's nice damage, but not necessary. And by the numbers, the damage should even out because I'm getting more attacks anyways. (which is also fishing for more crits). It's true, more chances to fail attacks and loose damage, but more chances to succeed to and get crits for extra damage and effects.
And for how you read Surprising Strategy, not sure I agree... again I could be wrong as someone mentions later the feats in that book hit a lot of PRCs, but the ability works almost the exact same so by RAI at least I don't see why those two abilities couldn't work with this feat. Swashbuckler is kind of the replacement for Duelist anyhow.

avr wrote:

....

TWF is normally a poor idea for a swashbuckler - precise strike is a sizable damage bonus and it doesn't apply when you're using two weapons. It also sucks up feats and as you've just noticed, there are others you would like to take. Besides this one look at lunge just for a start.

To answer this question and for those in general who question my choice of TWF and how I'm getting 10' reach and all that, I'll just mention my build here.

To start, I'm not necessarily going for the most powerful or optimized build. I like big numbers and great effects, but I also like flavor and variety in options.

Jabari Seddik

Half-Elf (re-skinned into a Hyena man) Level 6 (soon to be 7)
Chaotic Good, Blended-View Alternative Racial Trait
STR: 7
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 18
Fort: 5 / Reflex: 11 / Will: 3 [5 vs enchantments]
Traits: Blade of Mercy / Finding your Kin (worked it out with DM to make it story related to have this trait)

Swashbuckler: Whirling Dervish Archetype
Chosen feats:
1) Half-elf Skill Focus: Intimidate
Enforcer
3) Combat Reflexes
4) (swash bonus feat) Retrained into Combat Stamina (was weapon focus)
5) Two-Weapon fighting (retrained from Dazzling Display)

Items:
Waveblade +1 Thundering ("Booming Blade")
Dagger +1 Guardian ("Harrier's Friend")
Throwing Axe (MW)

Mithral Chain Shirt (MW)

Swordmaster's flair (GM and I have agreed it doesn't prevent using a weapon or item in the hand used to hold it. It's cloth and a slot-less item, see drawing to see how this might be illustrated)
MW tools: Acrobatics -- Tumbling
MW tools: Intimidate -- Demoralize

Headband of Alluring Charisma +2
Cloak of Resistance +1

Future items to get next level:
Belt of Dex +2
Cracked White Prism Ioun stone
+1 to mithral chain
Plume of Panache
Second Waveblade

General Idea:
So, originally I wanted to do straight up swash and make an intimidate build using enforcer and dazzling display. I have a trait that negates the negative to doing non-lethal with slashing weapons, took an archetype that benefited from doing non-lethal and gave free dex to damage. Over time though, I realized how crappy Dazzling display was. There were 4 big fights where I tried my best to use Dazzling display but could not justify any turn to use it. The problem is it's a full round action, meaning you can't move into place and get a good set up for it. Trying to set up the previous turn doesn't work because A: you may end up wasting your turn just getting into position and B: enemies move.

So, I decided, with the suggestion from my DM, to go TWF. I know the downsides, you loose Precise strike. But the extra attacks make up for the damage lost and the fact that you're crit fishing much more often and crits give some juicy effects beyond double damage.

In addition, Whirling Dervish combos really well with Enforcer at level 7 when they get Whirlwind Dance which gives you a full attack + movement (but hitting different enemies). You get a better Dazzling display effectively. Because you can move up to your speed, hit with all your attacks at full bab (though separate targets), and make intimidate checks on everyone you hit and those effects lasts ROUNDS instead of A round.

Now, off hand I know what you're thinking, You can't Two-weapon fight with whirling dervish! It's restrictive to one weapon, a scimitar no less, and nothing in the off hand!

And you'd be right, but there's a bit of a work around based on the wording (and something the DM agreed with).

Dervish Finesse, the ability that gives Dex to hit to Scimitars specifically for the Whirling dervish, does not inherently get rid of your base swash buckler finesse. It just says you can treat scimitars like piercing melee weapons for your class abilities and feats. It says it alters Swashbuckler Finesse, but not over-right. It would say replace otherwise.

Dervish Dance is the ability that gives free Dex to damage. It specifically calls out when you use your Swashbuckler Finesse. Not when using your Dervish Finesse. It also specifies separately that you get dex instead of strength to damage. Then later says this counts as having dervish dance for feat pre-requisites, but does not say this ability IS giving you dervish dance. Otherwise they'd just say "At level 4 you get Dervish Dance as a free feat.

So, with all the rules juggling out of the way, essentially with this archetype you can still use piercing weapons and because you still get your dex to hit and dex to damage using piercing weapons from your base class abilities, you can dual wield with no problem. The only other issue is enforcer, which calls out slashing damage.

To get around this, I'm working towards obtaining Wave Blades, which are light- slashing, piercing weapons with an 18-20 crit range, the only one of its kind in pathfinder. (exotic obviously). I plan to use a Cracked White prism ion stone to handle the proficiency issue (cus I don't have feat slots for it)

And so that's the mechanics and thought process behind this build. Two weapon fighting, Enforcer/Intimidate, Whirling Dervish.

A scary and graceful whirlwind of swords on the battlefield.

Thunderlord wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
Why are you two weapon fighting with a swashbuckler?

Maybe twf is his way of nerfing the Swashbuckler. On the other hand its perfectly possible to not free hand style and just not use Precise Strike. My personal favorite is greatsword parrying. The Azatariel archetype has no text specifying a single weapon when using Whimsical Riposte which places Precise Strike. This cannot be used with greatswords but it can allow two rapiers.

Errant Inlad wrote:
I believe that Surprising Strategy is reffering to the Riposte class feature of the Duelist PrC, not Opportune Parry and Riposte from the swashbuckler base class.
Good catch. If it was referring to Swashbuckler it would have said Deed not Class Feature

Ha, that's a fun archetype I never saw! Very interesting.

I still think at least by RAI, since swash is effectively the Duelist in all but name, that it should work. Deeds are apart of your class feature. But I understand the EXACT wording is It's Riposte, not Opportune Parry and Riposte.

But to that same argument I mention the ruling on Swashbuckler's weapon training, whether it counts as "Weapon Training" for feats that specifically call for weapon training and not swashbuckler weapon training. From what I've read the devs have ruled that so long as the ability works and acts the same way, by any other name it's the same ability and should work with those feats.

Bill Dunn wrote:
Whatever else may be involved, getting a free dirty trick, disarm, or sunder isn't overpowered. I'd argue most of them are underpowered because they don't generally inflict damage and so just prolong a fight (leading to more risk overall) compared to dealing out damage. This, in effect, gives you a chance at using a maneuver and inflicting normal damage but only if the creature provokes an AoO. In other words, finally the manuevers get something nice.

Ya, if it allowed for something like a trip manuever, maybe it would be a bit on the powerful side. But even then I don't see it as a problem. You can already do maneuvers in place of attacks, even attacks of opportunity. So instead of choosing to do a damage attack or a disarm maneuver, the feat lets me do both for that one specific case.

Paizo Employee

Attacks of Opportunity are as strong as your ability to trigger them, which can vary a lot between builds. There are some builds that can handily surpass a full attack primarily by chaining together AoOs with different triggers, or by effectively threatening so much territory that it becomes all but impossible to perform any action that can trigger an AoO (including movement) without suddenly having a character in the creature's face smacking it down.

Swashbuckler in general is a class that can feel powerful by virtue of its array of options, but about 1/3 of its class features are actually mutually exclusive and block each other out. Its damage also isn't actually that impressive compared to a barbarian or fighter (especially if you're two-weapon fighting and losing your precise strike bonus damage.)

To the build- Swashbucklers can't actually take Surprising Strategy. It requires the Riposte class feature which the Duelist has but the Swashbuckler does not. Normally you wouldn't be able to take Surprising Strategy until 11th level. So that could be negatively impacting things if you're using an 11th level feat as a 7th level character. A free disarm, sunder, or dirty trick on your riposte is incredibly good; at least one of those will always be useful and when using the correct maneuver against the correct opponent, you can end a fight right there. Dirty Trick as a free rider in particular is very good because normally you can't perform a Dirty Trick in place of an attack and combining it with a full attack + parry and riposte is significant, far more powerful than something like Improved or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting which is just giving you an extra attack on a full attack (and maybe catching you up to the damage you gave up by being a two-weapon fighting swashbuckler in the first place.)


AoOs are strong when enemies engage with you. If they don't engage, then you don't get much out of them... directly.

For a martial character, you are often restricted to only having the option of "murder it" when it comes to tactical options. AoOs can all you to turn you damage into a circle of pain that makes it more attractive to try to avoid you... making enemies take longer routes if they want to kill the squishies.

This game doesn't have very many aggro or traditional tank options. Reach and AoOs is one of the few ways to accomplish that kind of effect without requiring a complex build. So allowing a martial to have something more than "apply greatsword A to face B" is nice.


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Roco wrote:

Ha, that's a fun archetype I never saw! Very interesting.

I still think at least by RAI, since swash is effectively the Duelist in all but name, that it should work. Deeds are apart of your class feature. But I understand the EXACT wording is It's Riposte, not Opportune Parry and Riposte.

It is absolutely not RAI. That's one of a number of feats that were added in Chronicle of Legends to make the CRB prestige classes more appealing. It works for characters with the Duelist prestige class, full stop.


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Roco wrote:

Ha, that's a fun archetype I never saw! Very interesting.

I still think at least by RAI, since swash is effectively the Duelist in all but name, that it should work. Deeds are apart of your class feature. But I understand the EXACT wording is It's Riposte, not Opportune Parry and Riposte.

But to that same argument I mention the ruling on Swashbuckler's weapon training, whether it counts as "Weapon Training" for feats that specifically call for weapon training and not swashbuckler weapon training. From what I've read the devs have ruled that so long as the ability works and acts the same way, by any other name it's the same ability and should work with those feats.

This is very much not the case, at least not in the post-SKR world. There are specific requirements for a class feature from an archetype to count as the original class feature from the base class. This isn't even that--it's a deed from a class that has no relationship to the prestige class bearing the original class feature. And I'd bet my snout that swashbucklers are played far more frequently than duelists, so it's unlikely that design simply overlooked the difference. Swashbucklers don't qualify for this feat.

As for attacks of opportunity being too powerful, . . . this is reminding me of that one thread where someone complained that sneak attack was OP. Specializing in attacks of opportunity is expensive, and like most expensive specializations it's frustrating when the gimmick isn't applicable. And attacks of opportunity from a single threat are frequently either avoidable or tankable. I'm gonna go with "no" to the original question.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Roco wrote:

Ha, that's a fun archetype I never saw! Very interesting.

I still think at least by RAI, since swash is effectively the Duelist in all but name, that it should work. Deeds are apart of your class feature. But I understand the EXACT wording is It's Riposte, not Opportune Parry and Riposte.

It is absolutely not RAI. That's one of a number of feats that were added in Chronicle of Legends to make the CRB prestige classes more appealing. It works for characters with the Duelist prestige class, full stop.

You're probably right, but dammit, they should just really put hard-line wording if they plan for a feature to be like... one thing only. Unless there's some other class or archetype that gets "Riposte" as a class feature, why not just say the prerequisite is a level x Duelist?

In any case, I really don't feel that disarm, sunder, or dirty trick is really that bad a condition anyhow. Disarm is an action economy waster. The worst it can do is waste a move action and or prevent the enemy from doing AoO that turn.

Dirty trick, all the conditions, just seem like another move action eater. The conditions aren't exactly strong.

And sunder... who sunders? I mean, probably plenty of people, but I've never seen someone sunder before. Just seems like, why? Unless that particular bady has some weakness tied to his weapon you might as well just hit the bad guy. And even if attacking the weapon was the answer, you might as well... ATTACK the weapon on your turn rather than waiting and hoping he attacks you first.

Ahh, but I digress. It probably is stronger than I realize. But ah well, I'll just live with an extra attack x3

(on a side note, if they want Prestige classes to seem appealing, make it suck less to multi-class into them. The problem with prestige is you loose so gosh damn much from multi-classing out of almost every class, save maybe a fighter or other mostly martial class.)

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Roco wrote:

I still think at least by RAI, since swash is effectively the Duelist in all but name, that it should work. Deeds are apart of your class feature. But I understand the EXACT wording is It's Riposte, not Opportune Parry and Riposte.

But to that same argument I mention the ruling on Swashbuckler's weapon training, whether it counts as "Weapon Training" for feats that specifically call for weapon training and not swashbuckler weapon training. From what I've read the devs have ruled that so long as the ability works and acts the same way, by any other name it's the same ability and should work with those feats.

Riposte doesn't even work the same way as Parry and Riposte, so that ruling wouldn't apply anyways. And has been previously mentioned, there's a huge level gap between when a character can get Riposte and where they can get Parry and Riposte. The swashbuckler does not qualify for Surprising Strategy (unless they're also a 5th level Duelist.)


Ssalarn wrote:

....

Swashbuckler in general is a class that can feel powerful by virtue of its array of options, but about 1/3 of its class features are actually mutually exclusive and block each other out. Its damage also isn't actually that impressive compared to a barbarian or fighter (especially if you're two-weapon fighting and losing your precise strike bonus damage.) ....

Ya, this is something I try to get others to understand. But, like the Kineticist, they see some big flashy numbers or effect and think the whole class is op.

When swashbuckler works, it does some FLASHY s!$* time to time. Case in point, when I managed to jump and climb up a cliff, parry and riposte, crit kill an Ettin, then on my turn turn and attack another ettin and crit, then when another ettin attempted to jump down to attack my friends bellow, I tripped him up and he fell to his death. All happening within like 2 or so rounds. Ya, that ONE instance seems super powerful. But like, every class can have flashy moments like that. It's just very obvious when a swash gets it cus they are kind of a gambler class.

But karma kicks in and the next two fights I'm next to useless and near death, rolling 1s rather than 15-20s, and running out of panache. So ya.

lemeres wrote:

AoOs are strong when enemies engage with you. If they don't engage, then you don't get much out of them... directly.

For a martial character, you are often restricted to only having the option of "murder it" when it comes to tactical options. AoOs can all you to turn you damage into a circle of pain that makes it more attractive to try to avoid you... making enemies take longer routes if they want to kill the squishies.

This game doesn't have very many aggro or traditional tank options. Reach and AoOs is one of the few ways to accomplish that kind of effect without requiring a complex build. So allowing a martial to have something more than "apply greatsword A to face B" is nice.

I agree with most of this for sure. I like variety and having only one thing you do in a fight seems kinda boring.


Quote:

.....

As for attacks of opportunity being too powerful, . . . this is reminding me of that one thread where someone complained that sneak attack was OP. Specializing in attacks of opportunity is expensive, and like most expensive specializations it's frustrating when the gimmick isn't applicable. And attacks of opportunity from a single threat are frequently either avoidable or tankable. I'm gonna go with "no" to the original question.

Huh, this is a good way to put it in perspective. My group knows all too well how under-powered regular rogue is, and even unchained, while much better, still isn't super powerful even when trying to make sneak attack as powerful and frequent as possible. Strong when it works, but many ways to have it not work too. (also doesn't help sneak attack as a feature is given out like candy to any class that wants it practically. There's like an archetype to be a better rogue for many classes)


For the record I am of the opinion that Surprising Strategy is rather underwhelming as an 11th level feat - most of the new feats are, with the super interesting Eldritch Knight options as a major exception.

Shadow Lodge

Flairs are slotless, but only because "occupies a hand" has never been considered a slot. They've obstensibly been balanced with a single one-handed weapon in mind.

The attack in Opportune Parry and Riposte is an immediate action.

Surprising Strategy is a level 11 feat for a prestige class that you're saying should be available to Swashbucklers at level 1. Chronicle of Legends was released this year. If it was meant to be available to swashbucklers, then it would be.

You can only do some combat maneuvers in place of attacks without abilities that allow you to do otherwise. Dirty trick is not one of these.

Waveblades are piercing or slashing, so you either get to use swashbuckler's finesse or Blade of Mercy+Enforcer, not both. You need a piercing and slashing weapon to utilize both. I think the broken back seax is the only weapon that does this, and it's an exotic one-handed 19-20/x2 weapon.

You keep coming up with reasons why certain abilities and items "should" work with your character (when they were written to not work in those ways). You've convinced your GM to let everything work the way you think it should, but I don't think it's Attacks of Opportunity in general that are the problem.

Paizo Employee

Arachnofiend wrote:
For the record I am of the opinion that Surprising Strategy is rather underwhelming as an 11th level feat - most of the new feats are, with the super interesting Eldritch Knight options as a major exception.

It's better than Quick Dirty Trick even before you count in the fact that it also offers disarm and sunder options, has no prereqs beyond the class feature, and is a free action rider on a thing you want to do every round anyways. Outside of key build feats that require a robust expenditure of other resources (Shield Master, Coordinated Charge) it's pretty much the best thing you could be spending a feat on. Dirty trick works on everything and disarm and sunder are both situational but can also completely flip an encounter when they matter. Even with CMD scaling being what it is, you'll generally have a better chance of landing that full bonus maneuver than you will of landing the -12 to -14 third off-hand attack from Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Blinding, deafening, or disarming an opponent can all effectively end the threat the opponent poses and there's no real limit to the number of times you can do this.


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Roco wrote:
You're probably right, but dammit, they should just really put hard-line wording if they plan for a feature to be like... one thing only. Unless there's some other class or archetype that gets "Riposte" as a class feature, why not just say the prerequisite is a level x Duelist?

It's a rules writing standard they adopted ages ago for futureproofing. Yes, it's a bit silly seeing it used in one of the final PF1 products but it still allows for some third-party product or house rule giving a non-Duelist access to Riposte.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have a mythic character with infinite AoO (movement triggers once unless I spend a mythic point on my turn), huge size, 30’ reach and I don’t feel it’s overpowered.

Shadow Lodge

Roco wrote:
(even after two combats where I was 5hp from death. The last combat my luck was horrible. Rolling 1s, rerolls into 1s, my Parry rolling an 18 or 19 being beaten not once, but twice by a natural d20 roll. Couldn't get a crit or kill a thing to save my life or dwindling panache, got grappled and couldn't roll decent to escape artist out...)

People don't remember failure when they are trying to say something is broken OP in a game.


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Well people shouldn't judge a class by the dice rolled anyways.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
Swordmaster's flair (GM and I have agreed it doesn't prevent using a weapon or item in the hand used to hold it. It's cloth and a slot-less item, see drawing to see how this might be illustrated)

You might like to take a look at this specific ruling/errata, which adds new text to the Flair.

Quote:
that says “Carrying a swordmaster’s flair counts as having that hand free for the purpose of abilities that require a free hand, though you still can’t hold another object in that hand.”

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
To get around this, I'm working towards obtaining Wave Blades, which are light- slashing, piercing weapons with an 18-20 crit range, the only one of its kind in pathfinder.

Also, slightly minor point, there is also the Wakizashi, still exotic, but gains the Deadly trait as well. The Gladius is a close second, with a 19-20 threat, but not being exotic, and working as a short sword.

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