Ghost Movement


Rules Discussion


A few questions on ghost movement.

1. If you fall/jump off a cliff can you use your fly speed to slow your fall/glide?

2. Pass Through is a three action activity that says if you start your turn inside an object you must use it or a similar ability to leave, but you are slowed 1 and cant use it so how do you leave?

3. Can ghosts climb walls without Ghostly Grasp?

4. Without Ghostly Grasp or Pass Through if you somehow where backed into an unlocked closet and they shut the door, can you escape?

5. The dedication explicitly says you can not pass through objects with the Pass Through feat, and Ghostly Grasp is required to interact with objects. So if you don't have Ghostly Grasp or Pass Through what happens if you try to pass your hand through a cup or table?


1) Since you do have a fly speed - though it is one with a restriction on it about how high you can fly upwards - it would still qualify you to use the Arrest a Fall reaction.

2-5) What kind of GM are you playing with and why?


Ok, I'll try to answer these since I will have a ghost in my party (I'm the GM), and I honestly believe this archetype needs some thinking on the GM part to make it viable.

1. Yes, with the Arrest a Fall, as the previous poster indicated.

2. RAW you cannot exit the wall using Pass Through, but the Success text in the feat includes a clause that you can also exit using "some other means of moving through a solid object". For my games I am ignoring the slowed 1 text, so you have three actions and can try to exit using Pass Through.

3. RAW no, you cannot climb without that ability.

4. Again, no. And you imagined a pretty favourable situation, since one of your party members can open the door for you. If you are a lvl2 ghost and you fall into a pit, you are pretty much screwed, not even your friends can do anything about it. They can't throw you a rope, you can't climb out of the pit, and I don't think there are teleportation spells/abilities at this level to get the ghost out... you get the idea.

5. I would say that your hand goes through the cup or table. My understanding is that the Pass Through feat exists to allow you to pass objects with the entirety of your body, and the Ghostly Grasp for fine manipulation.

At my table I have houseruled that a ghost without Ghostly Grasp can interact with objects in the material plane if the character can concentrate for 10 minutes (same time as if you wanted to turn an item incorporeal to carry it), so outside of combat, with some time you can do on your own most things that a character is expected to be able to do in an adventure. You still need the Ghostly Grasp for the advanced undead benefits, and also to interact more quickly with your environment by rolling Athletics or Thievery, which can be useful in combat. To pass through objects you still need the corresponding feat, although I'm ignoring the slowed 1 part so you can still use the feat again to exit.


I believe it's intentional that you're very limited in your interactions when you don't have ghostly grasp.
A ghost is a very esoteric being and the closed door of a closet becomes as much of a metaphorical barrier as a physical one.
An easy way to make this more accessible for the player is to give them anything with ghost touch (like a gauntlet).
Alternatively if you're a spellcaster or have an ancestry cantrip, there's mage hand in arcane/occult and prestidigitation in all traditions (prestidigitation doesn't open a door by a very strict reading but let's be honest if it can lift an object but not open an unlocked door, it's just magical dry cleaning).

Ghostly grasp really feels designed like a must take because it gives you the advanced undead benefits. The ability to interact with physical objects is more here as an enabler to take pass through later and not feel bad that you need to leave your ghost touch stuff behind than a replacement for it.

Pass through getting you stuck in walls is either a huge oversight or a roundabout way of telling the player to never finish their turn inside a wall unless they have a 2 action teleport spell. I think your judgment call makes sense.


Quote:

I believe it's intentional that you're very limited in your interactions when you don't have ghostly grasp.

A ghost is a very esoteric being and the closed door of a closet becomes as much of a metaphorical barrier as a physical one.
An easy way to make this more accessible for the player is to give them anything with ghost touch (like a gauntlet).
Alternatively if you're a spellcaster or have an ancestry cantrip, there's mage hand in arcane/occult and prestidigitation in all traditions (prestidigitation doesn't open a door by a very strict reading but let's be honest if it can lift an object but not open an unlocked door, it's just magical dry cleaning).

I'm fine with characters having limitations, but I believe that a newly created ghost without an entry-level environment interaction tool/rule is very problematic, as there are some situations were the ghost would be screwed because neither they nor the other PCs can do anything (see the "you fall into a pit, how do you get out?" example).

Ghost touch gauntlets is a nice solution, but I prefer to give the character an innate ability instead of having to rely on an specific item.

Quote:


Ghostly grasp really feels designed like a must take because it gives you the advanced undead benefits. The ability to interact with physical objects is more here as an enabler to take pass through later and not feel bad that you need to leave your ghost touch stuff behind than a replacement for it.

I think the important part about Ghostly Grasp is the object interaction, not the advanced undead benefits. Those are not mandatory by any means. Also, Ghostly Grasp and Pass Through don't do the same thing, so the first doesn't get obsolete when you take the second.


The ghost touch trinket is problematic if you loose it, but as the GM it's like a wizard loosing a spell component pouch. The only reason that would happen is if you decide to make that call.
Anyway almost everyone can pick up mage hand as an innate cantrip. The ghost touch mcguffin is more of a fix before you grab ghostly grasp.
I get that getting stuck in a closet would be annoying, I just see it as a potentially amusing situation to happen to a player that didn't pick up a cantrip nor a ghost touch item. As long as the GM uses that as a minor setback rather than a punishment, it's a fun story beat.
I didn't really mean that pass through made ghostly grasp obsolete but they both solve the closed closet issue in different ways. And I can see a caster that really doesn't care about material items intentionally leave it behind if they have access to spells that work around it.


Sc8rpi8n_mjd wrote:
Ghost touch gauntlets is a nice solution, but I prefer to give the character an innate ability instead of having to rely on an specific item.

I re-read the dedication feat because of another thread about the archetype and I completely missed that you can spend 10m to give any unattended item ghost touch.

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