Killing the Party Cleric


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I know it's a terrible idea so I don't need to hear anything about repercussions or anything like that.
Our campaign has been very lawful good so far, while I am playing a Neutral Evil character. Most of the group (There's 7 in total and 3 are evil and 2 are neutral) care mostly about personal gain but we get held back (Myself especially as my undead can all be killed fairly instantly by positive energy) by having to follow laws and good aligned rules.
In our last campaign I burned down a church and left the party to deal with it but IRL the cleric was saying he "Might not kill me if I repent and help them put out the fire" which I feel is way too cocky for another player at the same level to be saying to me, so I'm wondering if there's any way to really weaken a cleric (Without access to his food source <i> probably </i> so it would have to be in an actual fight) and maybe even prevent him from using positive energy spells as I think murdering him will make the campaign much more enjoyable.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.


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never never never ever play good and evil characters in the same party. It never works out.


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Too late for that, I just need to kill him now


Additional Details: Possible people helping me would be a Level 7 Conjuration Wizard and a Level 3 Barbarian along with a level 7 (I think) Fighter, while we'd be against a level 7 Cleric and possibly a Level 7 Gunslinger and Monk.
Since I have separated from the group I can set up traps and hire people to help with this if necessary.
I also have a Level 5 skeletal Champion, but as we're against a Cleric and I'm quite attached, I wouldn't be using him (Unless an item I read about which transfers positive energy cast on him to me instead actually exists) and a Bloody Dire Ram skeleton with a Cannon inside him (Single use)


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Steal/sunder his holy symbol in the surprise round and get rid of any spares he might have beforehand.


He has a tattoo'd holy symbol on his hand. does disfiguring this count? Or would I have to chop it off at the wrist?

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
GM Hands of Fate wrote:
never never never ever play good and evil characters in the same party. It never works out.

It can work if you do the following:

* Paladin has Int 7, and no ranks in sense motive
* Evil player has non-dectable alignment
* Campaign has lots of "evil" infections as par for the course (Carrion Crown)
* Evil player's goal is still the same as the Paladin
* Evil player never does anything against Paladin's code known by the Paladin


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NecroMageDroid wrote:
Too late for that, I just need to kill him now

If the campaign as a whole is lawful good, you need to retire your inappropriate character and play something that fits into the party and campaign.

If you continue with your current idea, you will end up without a party, without a campaign, and possibly without your (presumed) friends in real life too.

On the other hand, if all the players and the GM now want to end the game in a major intra-party battle, go ahead.


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Gilarius wrote:
NecroMageDroid wrote:
Too late for that, I just need to kill him now

If the campaign as a whole is lawful good, you need to retire your inappropriate character and play something that fits into the party and campaign.

If you continue with your current idea, you will end up without a party, without a campaign, and possibly without your (presumed) friends in real life too.

On the other hand, if all the players and the GM now want to end the game in a major intra-party battle, go ahead.

Seconded.

PVP is BAD.
Unless yyou're playing an arena style game, PVP is ALWAYS BAD.

Lemme break it down for you.
You kill his cleric.
He gets pissed that you killed his cleric.
He brings in a new character.
He kills your character.
You get pissed that he killed your character.
You bring in a new character to kill his new character.
Everyone at the table gets pissed off at everyone else.
Real life fights break out.
Feelings are hurt.
People get angry.
Your group splits.
People don't talk to eachother again for YEARS.
Some people never pick up the hobby again.


Cleric already has a new character rolled and I don't think he cares that much, he's the only one I want to kill really. The Gunslinger and Monk will just have to be incapacitated probably. I want to become the antagonist and then see if I can make reparations with everybody.
We're having the type of campaign where we end up in fighting and conflicting interests all the time.


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NecroMageDroid wrote:

Cleric already has a new character rolled and I don't think he cares that much, he's the only one I want to kill really. The Gunslinger and Monk will just have to be incapacitated probably. I want to become the antagonist and then see if I can make reparations with everybody.

We're having the type of campaign where we end up in fighting and conflicting interests all the time.

Just get him in his sleep. coup de grace.

simple.


NecroMageDroid wrote:

Cleric already has a new character rolled and I don't think he cares that much, he's the only one I want to kill really. The Gunslinger and Monk will just have to be incapacitated probably. I want to become the antagonist and then see if I can make reparations with everybody.

We're having the type of campaign where we end up in fighting and conflicting interests all the time.

What are the Gunslinger and Monk's alignments?

Cause I don't know about you, but I'm not going to make amends with someone who kills one of my friends.
At best, I'll play along til I can coup-de-grace him in the night with a pistol shot to the head.


He's level 7, I'm not sure how we're gonna do the 67 or so damage in one hit to him. We have a rogue but he's on the fence on this whole thing. Also currently we're separated into Rogue solo, Gunslinger solo, Cleric and Monk duo, Wizard, Barb and Fighter trio, and Me (Necromancer) solo (not counting my babys)
Also the Wizard knows where I am going so we could all reconvene (2 Wizards, Fighter and a 4 levels lower Barbarian) while the rogue is lost to everyone and the gunslinger knows where to meet up with the Cleric and Monk (Which is basically splitting the party into us 4 evils and those 3 goods with the neutral running around by himself)


NecroMageDroid wrote:

He's level 7, I'm not sure how we're gonna do the 67 or so damage in one hit to him. We have a rogue but he's on the fence on this whole thing. Also currently we're separated into Rogue solo, Gunslinger solo, Cleric and Monk duo, Wizard, Barb and Fighter trio, and Me (Necromancer) solo (not counting my babys)

Also the Wizard knows where I am going so we could all reconvene (2 Wizards, Fighter and a 4 levels lower Barbarian) while the rogue is lost to everyone and the gunslinger knows where to meet up with the Cleric and Monk (Which is basically splitting the party into us 4 evils and those 3 goods with the neutral running around by himself)

You could always hire some outside help... :D Ask the GM about mercenary prices.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Maybe I'm just not seeing it but did you mention what your own class was? I assume a wizard with the necromancy school but you could be something else. Either way the easiest (though less fun) way is just to coup de grace him in his sleep as others mentioned above. I wouldn't do it this way though as the player would be more likely to be angry for needlessly killing his character without a chance to fight back.

In combat the best way (as others have also mentioned) is to sunder his holy symbol to deny him both spells and channeling. Do note that if you plan to surprise him, clerics often have very high perception modifiers.


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First, I seriously recommend sitting down with everyone involved, this means all other players including the cleric, your GM, and yourself and discussing this in a adult manner outside of game.

Asking questions like:

Where is this game going?

What are the goals for this game, for each person?

Are we deliberately heading for a internal conflict?

Is everyone OK with PVP?

If one character kills another does that character become an NPC and does the player need to create a new character?

What is acceptable behavior for characters? (Some games for instance deliberately do not discuss themes such as Racism, The dichotomy of Murder and Killing, or other things some players/GMs do not want to deal with/feel uncomfortable with.)

Basically get a solid statement from all involved about their wants and intentions. If everyone involved is happy with the idea of internal party conflict and PVP then enjoy and good luck.

If not however, it may be best to have a discussion about how you all can compromise and get a cooperative play style you all like.

If some individuals cannot agree then the group may need to split to allow for two different playstyles.

I hope this helps and please understand I am not trying to attack or condemn you, this is simply the best advice I feel I can give you in this situation.


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Have you tried ROLEPLAYING the situation out? All I see is stat, stat, stat...

BTW, there is an evil alignment you can use in a good campaign. We have a noob playing in his first campaign and he does what he wants to do. We call the alignment "Jayne Evil" (See Firefly or Order of the Stick's Belkar). We recognize that some folks are just out for themselves yet we have learned to control him.

How, you ask, does the Lawful Good Cleric control the Chaotic Evil Rogue/Assassin who wants to start PVP? One sentence:

"The first person who starts a fight with the other party members will NEVER see another healing spell as long as they live."


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Oh it can work out. If you play it Smart Evil with long-reaching plans, and not violent short-sighted ally-stabbing Evil.

It is important that the Evil-character did not dump his mental stats, and is not overt with his evilness.

P.S.
Coup-de-grace him in his sleep. And all of your "companions" who might revive / revenge him.


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Wait, so he's giving you a chance to get off scot free, and your response is "I'll kill him!"? ... That's short-sighted, to say the least. Why just lie to him and get off scot free? That is appropriately self-interested for an evil character, in my mind.


This is something that needs to be worked out on the player side. Are you all happy with a game that has PvP? If some people really don't like that, then it's a bad idea with this group.


NecroMageDroid wrote:
He's level 7, I'm not sure how we're gonna do the 67 or so damage in one hit to him.

That's not how Coup de Grace works.

" As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace."

So, you don't have to do "67 or so damage in one hit to him." If you manage to do 20 (remember, this is an auto-crit), you'll almost certainly kill him, as the Fortitude Save will have a DC of 30+, and at lvl 7, his Fortitude Save is almost certainly under +10.


If the Cleric seems really intent on making the first move against you, you need to act. Otherwise, let it cool off, then do something to get in the Cleric's good graces. Save him from an arrow, offer to do cleaning duties for him, whatever.

What you need to do is a convincing display of force or trickery so that he won't try to kill you. Don't do this preemptively! If you directly threaten his life before he directly threatens yours, he will be back to kill you. But if he has threatened yours in the past, then a display of force can be the right thing to do. You could sneak up to him during the night and threaten to cut his throat unless he stops- make sure that you are actually prepared to do so and have properly incapacitated him. Alternatively, you could leave a note by his neck or something, telling him to cease and desist or die.

If the Cleric demands a fight, you could challenge the Cleric to a 1v1 honorable duel, no casting on the opponent. It doesn't have it be a fight to the death, but this is a loss you can afford. Defeat or surrender is probably sufficient unless your Cleric is CN, NE, or CE.

But yeah, if you really want him dead, get a scythe and ram it into his skull in the middle of the night. If you have Power Attack or even a half-decent Strength modifier, you will murder him. If you're the party beatstick, you have a good chance of going through all 67 HP at once.

Also, what class are you?


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Sounds comlplicated. Maybe just let the whole thing go and continue the actual adventure?


He said to me that he had no problems with killing my character, so I think it's only fair that he also has no qualms with me killing his character. We're all close friends and don't let the campaign interfere with our relationships IRL so as much as I enjoy my character, if it came to it I'd suck it up and make a new character, and he has another character pre rolled already so presumably he's fine with starting over as something other than a heal bot.

We have a fairly light hearted campaign (Think Gnome Genocide and pub crawls) and one of the party members has almost killed us and made new characters on multiple occasions already so I would think this situation would be much the same.

The reason for my choices at the moment IS a part of the roleplaying aspect of the game, my character being fairly neutral about most things, but is evil by default as a Wizard specialising in Necromancy.
He is a prideful character, so a party member casting him aside so easily for something he doesn't consider to be an issue (Especially considering what our party has done in the past which the cleric has turned a blind eye to) would probably cause him to want to do a show of power, but 1v1 the Cleric is just much stronger and plays very well into my weaknesses as a necromancer, so holding a dagger to his throat and telling him to get off his high horse doesn't seem like an option, considering the saving throws and my own terrible luck with important dice rolls, so I feel the best option is just killing him.

There are a lot of other reasons which would take too long to go into detail with but believe me this seems like the best option for now, both stat wise and RP wise.

Sorry about my lack of knowledge in these areas, we took a year long break from DnD and I play a wizard only so I'm not familiar with a lot of the Rogue/Fighter elements of the game.

Also I've already made the decision in the game to split from the party (Which the DM was fine with) and give the Cleric time to cool off, but while I'm away I'm also going to be preparing for the worst case scenario (Having to kill the Cleric and possibly the other Good characters) which was the point of this thread, as the question "What is the best way to kill your party's cleric" doesn't yield anything helpful for me.

I was hoping with preparation you could set up Unholy grounds or Cursed Areas which lower the capabilites of Good Aligned Characters, or anything along those lines, but I suppose just doing what I can to stop his healing physically is the best option


Also my Characters Charisma is appallingly bad so were I to lie and say I cared about what I did I'd have to pass a bluff check or Sens Motive, both of which are in the negative for me.

I would like to simply continue the campaign as normal, but tbh a 7 person campaign is very slow going, and my characters impactful choices being negated by a very stubborn Lawful Good all the way through makes it quite boring for me since my hands are tied most of the time.
The other 2 good aligned Characters don't care nearly as much about the actions I take, so getting rid of the Cleric altogether would make things a lot smoother for me and the other 2 Evil aligned Players.

Going into this whole thing, I had been one of the better Characters in the campaign in terms of being reasonable and trying to keep sentient enemy NPCs alive as information sources while the rest of the group just wanted to kill them (And when they did it was totally cool) so this Church Burning episode was a long time coming and my first real Evil action in the campaign, so the Cleric getting so upset about it (Especially considering they managed to save everybody inside the church anyway) is just really bothersome.

In a game of player choice, if the one time you make a choice which aligns with your own interests, instead of the Good characters interests, they start threatening to straight up murder you, it feels pretty stale for you as a player.


Im guessing you summon skeletons yes? your the necromancer in the most archaic sense of the word?

Here's what you can do. Obtain a Scroll of Desecrate, You will have to make a UMD check to cast it. Make sure before you cast it that there is an altar to a god you serve, or at least an evil god.

Desecrate grants +1 to Attack, Damage and Saving throws and +1 hp per HD to every undead in the area. this is increased to +2 if there is an altar present at the time of casting. Also any character summoning or creating undead in this area can effectively double the amount they can create (4HD worth of undead/level instead of only 2HD/level.)

My suggestion would be, you are a BBEG now in the Clerics eyes. Play like one. Setup traps, hire mercernaries, Assassins, and finally have your room swarming with Undead and dont forget you can actually have an infinite number of undead, you can only control a certain amount, the rest beyond and above the total you can control become mindless and can attack you so be wary.


Alric Rahl wrote:

Im guessing you summon skeletons yes? your the necromancer in the most archaic sense of the word?

Here's what you can do. Obtain a Scroll of Desecrate, You will have to make a UMD check to cast it. Make sure before you cast it that there is an altar to a god you serve, or at least an evil god.

Desecrate grants +1 to Attack, Damage and Saving throws and +1 hp per HD to every undead in the area. this is increased to +2 if there is an altar present at the time of casting. Also any character summoning or creating undead in this area can effectively double the amount they can create (4HD worth of undead/level instead of only 2HD/level.)

My suggestion would be, you are a BBEG now in the Clerics eyes. Play like one. Setup traps, hire mercernaries, Assassins, and finally have your room swarming with Undead and dont forget you can actually have an infinite number of undead, you can only control a certain amount, the rest beyond and above the total you can control become mindless and can attack you so be wary.

Thank you, this sounds like a good plan to me. I like the idea of being the Antagonist of the campaign.


My suggestion kill him when he go sleep with shrinked Stone

fly high with your stone , drop it , say command word for unshrinking and watch divine punishment or if you think 1 stone is not enough , take whole bag of stones

second option :
Your lvl 7 wizard necromancer right ?
just prepare 3x times Eneveration and cast on him


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I think you have a greater problem than killing a cleric.

I think your group has missed the point of cooperative roleplaying. I recommend playing a game where character conflict is encouraged.


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The whole "I'm evil in a party of good and I must
kill or thwart my party members" seems childish to me...just my 2 cents


In fairness, I think they mentioned that the party was a fairly even split between good, neutral, and evil.


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Just keep in mind that while people might not mind that their character gets killed it is another thing to have your character get killed by another player. It might just start more trouble than it's worth.

Other than that, the most obvious way but also the most crappy for the other player is killing him in his sleep. If I'd steer to be the antagonist in the campaign I'd not try too hard to kill my fellow players but build a difficult but possible way for them to fight back.

Desecrate his holy temple, raise the priests from the dead and use them to exact your vengeance in a carefully planned ambush. That will help making you your preferred status of antagonist and much more fun for the other player.


Remco Sommeling wrote:

Just keep in mind that while people might not mind that their character gets killed it is another thing to have your character get killed by another player. It might just start more trouble than it's worth.

Other than that, the most obvious way but also the most crappy for the other player is killing him in his sleep. If I'd steer to be the antagonist in the campaign I'd not try too hard to kill my fellow players but build a difficult but possible way for them to fight back.

Desecrate his holy temple, raise the priests from the dead and use them to exact your vengeance in a carefully planned ambush. That will help making you your preferred status of antagonist and much more fun for the other player.

Yeah, animate his family as zombies!


You've got a 7th level conjurer on your side. Throw the cleric in a pit, summon some monsters down there and target until dead. This is a bad idea; but if you're going to do it just target the reflex save until dead.


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Andrew Harasty wrote:
GM Hands of Fate wrote:
never never never ever play good and evil characters in the same party. It never works out.

It can work if you do the following:

* Paladin has Int 7, and no ranks in sense motive
* Evil player has non-dectable alignment
* Campaign has lots of "evil" infections as par for the course (Carrion Crown)
* Evil player's goal is still the same as the Paladin
* Evil player never does anything against Paladin's code known by the Paladin

I can imagine it can also work out if you have well developed and interrelated backgrounds and a decent grasp on non-stereotype roleplaying.

Typically, I would want an overriding connection between the characters that can bypass the alignment problem. Family ties seems like a fairly simple one- two brothers with very different views of the world, but they still care enough about eachother to work together. That gives an immediately understandable relationship which preclude the obvious question "Why don't I just kill this guy?"

For an example- One brother is a knight in shining armor that always tries to use diplomacy first, even if he suspects he might be betrayed. But he gives them a chance. The other brother is a rogu-ish type, perhaps a bounty hunter. The second brother has had to deal with the scum of society, and he may have been burned in the past by people he tried to protect (maybe a bounty with a sob story that he decided to try to help...that stole his wallet the next morning). He thinks the first brother is a fool for giving people a chance, since he thinks they will often try to stab him in the back.

The first brother is trying to help the second with trust issues, while the second tries to help the first 'wise up' and avoid getting burned. Both are acting on very different assumptions about the world, but their motivations are in fact very similar- they are helping their brother. And thus, you can get rather good conflict when they are taking different routes to the same ends.

But of course...all of this requires a lot of effort and investment. Maybe a bit much for a typical beer and pretzels style game. So as a general guide- yeah, probably avoid these opposites of the moral spectrum. Only do it with mature players that can develop a sound understanding and agreement beforehand.


lemeres wrote:
I can imagine it can also work out if you have well developed and interrelated backgrounds and a decent grasp on non-stereotype roleplaying.

Judging by some of the iconic backstories anyone who isn't stereotypical mustache twirling, puppy kicking, baby eating evil is neutral. Alain's cavalier order is basically the definition of evil as given in the CRB yet he's neutral. Now imagine how nasty someone has to be to actually get an evil alignment. If swearing your life to being a selfish jerk isn't enough to get out of neutral you have to actually go out and do things "for the greater evil" to rate an evil alignment in this game.


First thing is first:

This is premeditated murder on your character's part. You need to start next session telling the GM and making a Bluff roll. Then he needs to make a Sense Motive roll.

If he succeeds then you need to tell him (depending on how well he does. Likely we'll considering your tanked Charisma and likely low Bluff vs his high Wisdom and likely high Sense Motive) what's up.

IE:
My character is planning on killing yours.

So he gets to act based on his skills. Your character torched a church, he gave you an "out" and you resort to murder and PVP.

If I were your GM you'd be bounced from the game.


@ the OP,

Never forget, revenge is a dish best served cold, play things smooth, as others have noted, go with the flow for a while, be a good team player, play nice with the cleric for a good long while.

BUT, all the while, use your WBL and whatever else you gain over 3-4 levels (if the game is gong that far) to prepare, stockpile dead creatures for animate dead in strategic spots. Quietly and slowly invest in items that protect you from your goodly "allies" or enhance your abilities as a necromancer. Hire mercenaries, bribe/control monsters,etc.

Once your evil plan and preparations are ready, likely it has taken long enough that the cleric may have come to terms with you, may even think you are at least a feasible ally (may be good to get some social skill enhancing spells if you can, or at least consumables of such like scrolls just in case)

And then just wait for the right moment, say in the midst a a pitched battle (mayhaps with those merc you hired to attack the party) set you evil plans in motion and watch the shock and jaws drop.

(as an important note, I do not suggest going this route if any of the PC's involved will take this badly as players, however their characters reactions should not factor in. But if you fellows players and GM are actually fine with PvP and nasty down and dirty PC interactions, then, your golden, and you may find everyone has fun, hell Way of the Wicked, that I am playing in now, is all about EVIL, and it has a ton of 5 star reviews. Nothing wrong with evil or PvP, just has to be handled correctly and with enough tact to avoid pointless OOC drama and bad blood)

@ HWalsh,

Not trying to be a jerk here man, but the OP is not playing in your home game, thus comments like "I would kick you out" are sort of pointless, and in poor taste. I will reference a famous fantasy novel group, the Companion of the Lance. Wies and Hickman write into the Chronicles series a number of events where members of the Companions of the Lance betray each other, for love, for power, because they are soul bound to an evil archemage, etc. Yet, and I agree, those novels are some of the best from their time period. So there is, and has been, a long standing precedent for inter-party conflict, betrayal, and yes, even murder. There are many more examples, but really thats not the point. Point is long as the players and GM are all on the same page with PvP, it is not for any of the rest of us to denote, bad wrong fun, or dog pile on them with "well in my home game I would do X to you, as I do not agree with what you are doing." We are supposed to be an open and welcoming community for gamers, and alas, scolding someone for a different play style is, well, not welcoming. You are entitled to your opinions HWalsh, but the OP is also entitled to not be criticized for not fitting into your version of PF.


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NecroMageDroid wrote:

In our last campaign I burned down a church and left the party to deal with it but IRL the cleric was saying he "Might not kill me if I repent and help them put out the fire" which I feel is way too cocky for another player at the same level to be saying to me, so I'm wondering if there's any way to really weaken a cleric (Without access to his food

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

You sound very cocky yourself for wanting to repay a personal slight with death. Since it was "IRL" then you can't use your character's alignment as justification. It's immature to respond to an out-of-game dispute with an in-game retaliation. Moving forward with this plan will result intention in the gaming group. What will you do if the party defends the cleric, or avenged him, and kills your character? I suggest you swallow your pride and think of a reason why your evil character should cooperate with the group, instead of thinking of ways to use a fantasy game to hurt someone in your family by group.

Is PvP acceptable at your table? If you insist on proceeding, just coup de grace him in his sleep.


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Sounds like the worst table to play at. This kind of stuff made me quit gaming for a decade.


Dave Herman wrote:
Sounds like the worst table to play at. This kind of stuff made me quit gaming for a decade.

it didn't make me quit but it has resulted in some undesirable tension in the short term, the added value in game play was less than nothing.

I'd recommend to steer clear of it, only the killing player will likely consider this even remotely fun, that might be a wrong evaluation but if you are anything but 99% sure I'd just leave it well alone.


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Basically what I get out of this post is NEVER play in a game with NecroMageDroid.


VonDien wrote:
Basically what I get out of this post is NEVER play in a game with NecroMageDroid.

It could be worse. I find it rare to be on a table where everyone is all aligned in-game, forcing too strict a behavior code can be a fun-killer in a fantasy.

That being said, NMD may just be seeking validation for his choice to confirm his desires. I get the feeling the more NMD elaborates, the more he is just seeking approval and proof that his view is the correct one. A Winnar is you, I suppose.

There is no fixing that, and we aren't his DM or thankfully his group for that matter.

Plainly put, the player with the Initiative and takes the first decisive action will win that party conflict. Unless there is an in-game pre-arrangement, if that assassination is too blatant it can lead to tragic consequences A: for the perpetrator & B: the group as infighting can suddenly flare out of control.

If either or tickles his ego, go for it -NMD's posting about it already after all.

As a DM, I am torn between Player Freedom and shepherding my flock of Players. The retaliation cycle is very real as I've gone through it as a bystander. Entertaining, but sometimes people have to go and if this is the impetus, then damn it I am weaving it into the Campaign & Story!

Plus, there's nothing funnier that seeing the conspirator get foiled every now and then.

Kill in sleep is brought up so much it's makes me curious about the posters' natures ^_^... personally I'd allow the enemy to do my work for me and find a way to let or make the opposition do my work for me. There's a lot of finesse work involved, granted, but it can feel so much more rewarding upon success, and its guaranteed that the more dice someone rolls, eventually somebody fails or the enemy crits.


GM Hands of Fate wrote:
never never never ever play good and evil characters in the same party. It never works out.

I disagree. Playing a chaotic evil murdering psychopath with a bunch of lawful good does not work, but playing an intelligent Lawful evil does work and can be fun.


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GM Hands of Fate wrote:
never never never ever play good and evil characters in the same party. It never works out.

It works out fine if they are played as though they were people, rather than caricatures of moral/immoral ideal.


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I think evil PCs can work when their goals are reasonably in agreement with the rest of the party's plans. For example, maybe they're on a path to power, and support the party because hey, bodyguards. The party's immediate actions may be largely immaterial - for example, say that a dragon is terrorizing a town. Most of the party may want to protect the town, but the evil PC just wants lots of money and, potentially, rare and useful magic items the dragon's been hoarding. They have a reason to support the group, and will not stab their allies in the back because that would be detrimental to their plans.

They're also smart enough to realize that doublecrossing a group of people who can kill a dragon is a chancy proposition at best, and probably wouldn't even consider doing so unless there was an obvious gain and a plan almost certain to succeed. Otherwise, they might simply say "Hey guys, great knowing you, but I want to do other stuff now - best of luck".


GM_Beernorg wrote:


@ HWalsh,

Not trying to be a jerk here man, but the OP is not playing in your home game, thus comments like "I would kick you out" are sort of pointless, and in poor taste. I will reference a famous fantasy novel group, the Companion of the Lance. Wies and Hickman write into the Chronicles series a number of events where members of the Companions of the Lance betray each other, for love, for...

@GM_Beernorg

Thank you for understanding that not all campaigns are super serious, and for standing up for a necromancer who's just trying to spice things up.

@Avaricious
I guess I was kind of seeking some validation. I didn't think almost everyone on this forum would have a strict code of ethics which all instances of a game based entirely on Player Choice must adhere to. Also I only mentioned murder in sleep once, when asking someone else how it worked as I'm not an assassin or even a melee character in my campaign.

@Ciaran_Barnes
Yeah it was cocky, but I had no interest in killing the Cleric from the outset. I assumed he'd react how he had to every single other instance of evil being committed throughout our campaign and go "G#& d*#mit you guys, lol" but instead he said he was gonna straight up murder me which at the time was just very jarring and insulting. Not saying it justifies it, it was a kneejerk reaction.

@Everyone else
Guys I think a lot of you are missing the point of this, the very first post I made I stated I know it's a terrible idea, as in I know this is a terrible idea, but I'd like some suggestions or some friendly reminders of WHY it's a bad idea (And not just in YOUR campaign but from my characters perspective)
Also in case anybody is curious the DnD session has gone on hiatus for exams so we have made 0 progress since I first posted this. I've lost most of my motivation to stir things up and the cleric may have also lost some of his bite over the break. I'm probably going to go back to being generic party member #7 when we restart, so you can all celebrate. To be honest this thread was largely for the fun of it, and to get suggestion on how to deal with the cleric if he continued to stifle any chaotic fun throughout the campaign, and seems to have turned into "judge another players session even though it really isn't my problem, and all they did was ask for suggestions on something they said from the very beginning they knew was a bad idea"
Regardless, thank you guys for answering my question as best you could, much appreciated. I'll refer to this thread in future if I need it.


NecroMageDroid wrote:


@Avaricious
I guess I was kind of seeking some validation. I didn't think almost everyone on this forum would have a strict code of ethics which all instances of a game based entirely on Player Choice must adhere to. Also I only mentioned murder in sleep once, when asking someone else how it worked as I'm not an assassin or even a melee character in my campaign.

@Everyone else
Guys I think a lot of you are missing the point of this, the very first post I made I stated I know it's a terrible idea, as in I know this is a terrible idea, but I'd like some suggestions or some friendly reminders of WHY it's a bad idea (And not just in YOUR campaign but from my characters perspective)
Also in case anybody is curious the DnD session has gone on hiatus for exams so we have made 0 progress since I first posted this. I've lost most of my motivation to stir things up and the cleric may have also lost some of his bite over the break. I'm probably going to go back to being generic party member #7 when we restart, so you...

I think the biggest takeaway from the forums is exposure to different playstyles and etiquette. Other forums like GitP are excellent for number crunching and /tg/ would outright outline action-by-action how to assassinate and come out clean, but I believe the finger on the pulse of PF is best in Paizo's Forums. A lot of voices aren't heard fully on the table but come alive when it hits the forums.

Do as you will. I have no qualms against PVP in-game and pursue aggressive PC interactions with the knowledge that it can shake the table apart. For me its that extra bit of realism where "Party Unity" doesn't trump everything for a PC's vested interests and the game can go beyond standard encounters, puzzle solving, and NPC interaction.

Enjoy your "Lancer/Black Horse" trope role -it's more fun for me than the typical party leader. At seven or more players, a little discord is expected and it prevents everyone from being the same generic Swiss Family Robinson personality. Just accept the fact that some viewpoints will bump against yours. Its fine to disagree and vent, but let it stay that way unless you feel you need to let the dice decide.


This may come up when I playtest The Cleaves. The difference is if the party splits up, their chances for survival go down. In your game, how have the real monsters and real bad guys reacted to this infighting? Have they made overtures to your character? An effective villain has been observing the possible threat to his or her plans for some time.

Much of the time, helping a not so good PC get and use certain items or skills will advance the individuals plot. Not all villains have the same goals. The vampire might give you a book of +3 charisma in return for convincing the cleric that the evil high priest is the real menace.


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NecroMageDroid wrote:
Too late for that, I just need to kill him now

No, you need to retire your character and play one that isn't an anal orifice.

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