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Sounds comlplicated. Maybe just let the whole thing go and continue the actual adventure?
"This is a tough moral quandary we have here... Let me put on my thinking cap!"
Very click-bait title. I love it.
And I'm loving this thread again. See, when people respect each other we can come up with all sorts of theory-crafting insanity! Cooperatively!
A moderator should rename this thread "Argue with Anzyr!" At this point I think that would be a more fitting title.
Wait, so your hope is to create a character with the maximum number of non-fighting man abilities that people will accept as still being a fighting man? The very fact that you require something that works first in order to begin making it more fighter like is telling don't you think? The wacky Mythic tricks were in response to Explosive rules stacks and other shenanigans. Some would call that "clever spellcasting" while I would call it disingenuous. In a straight out no pre-buffs duel it comes down to who wins initiative. Because the Mythic Fighter has a Mythic Vital Strike and can hit you from virtually any distance (let's assume he has a bow) for 1k damage a blow. Twice per round. Even if the Wizard wins inititive the Fighter is literally un-killable. Since the Wizard can't know that (remember no prep time) he likely levels a SoD spell at the Fighter. Who shrugs is off. Or a SoS spell that said Fighter can reroll 15+ times until he succeeds or he might be flat immune to already. The thread exploded and it was GLORIOUS to watch. It started with a simple premise like the one above, but then the arguments devolved into "But what if the Wizard had X?" "Then the Fighter has Y" "Yeah but a Wizard would never not be pre-buffed" "Oh yeah? Mythic Vital Strike was being nice. Now Fighter bro is a DemiGod and has copied all your tricks." "Well, my Wizard has tricks you don't know about." "Do Tell." "No, and actually now he's a sorcerer, with another trick that is even cooler. "Seriously?" "Yeah, and my dad could beat up your dad." That about sums the thread. With liberal doses of one side ignoring the other. I'll let you guess which side ignored which ;).
My Theoretical DemiGod Fighter has got Divine Source (for free Wishes or Miracles as needed and other spells) instead of beefy fighter stuff. So he has some other options then "Hit with sharpened metal" Big guns? Big guns. Use Divine Source Wish to make a Simulacra of said Wizard you are about to fight. Do that until you feel comfortable. Send Wizards to Enervate. Watch his Wizards fight your Wizards. You then both retreat to your respective Demi-Planes. Repeat until both of you aren't having fun anymore. Meet later for tea and agree to a Cold War with Simulacra.
I'm enjoying this thread, especially the rapid-response nature of it. Good way to spend a Friday afternoon in rainy Washington State. Wish I had some popcorn :). Reading it though I feel I can sum up some tactics and counter-tactics. It's my personal belief that mythic is almost always stronger than non-mythic. So that being said in my mind the fighter has already won. I’ll explain why below. Point-by-point counter begins now:
2: Time-Stop Shenanigans: A contingency spell can help with these shenanigans. The contingency is "If someone I can see casts Time Stop then I dimension door to somewhere else." Or go invisible. Or whatever. It costs some money to set-up, unless you have what I am about to describe. 3: Geas/Quest: Undone by Unbreakable Fighter 20. All other points can probably be countered by the following: Some folks might ask "Roan, why do you think mythic will always trump non-mythic?" and my response would be "Divine Source." The mythic ability you can pick up at Tier 3, 6 and 9 gives you spells effectively. You pick two domains the first time you take it and then 1 domain and two subdomains each time after and can cast one spell of each level per day as a spell-like ability. Remember, spell-likes have no components? And Miracle, Wish, Limited Wish, Time Stop, and Explosive Runes are domain spells you can access. In short all those cool things the wizard can do (especially tactics 1-3 listed above) said fighter can pull of with Divine Source. Sure, it's only once per day, but you don't have to pay gold for them, ever. Given enough time said fighter (or any class really) can do WHATEVER THEY WANT BECAUSE WISH DOESN'T COST MONeY. You want to turn it up to 11? Then take the feat Spell Lore and make them all Mythic. Mythic Time Stop can last for HOURS. Or Mythic Wish can be cast as an immediate action to make a d20 roll whatever you want it to be. Or be used to cast up to 8th level mythic spells YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW. I’ll give an example: Mythic Disintegrate has a fort save like the regular version but if you spend 3 mythic points to power it up it flat KILLS YOU if you fail the save. But now we have a fighter who can cast spells (he's a god actually, so is it really spells he is casting?) up against a wizard. Does that invalidate my argument (mythic fighter wins because he is mythic)? Not within the parameters of said battle. Admittedly Divine Source has some problems with it (what’s the caster level or save DCs of those spell-like abilities?). Even assuming worst case scenario based on the wording of other abilities (CL=Mythic Tier and DC=10+Tier+Cha) that still means you get Wish for free once per day. And that is nothing to sneeze at. You can enter the domain of GM arbitration by getting Miracle as a SLA and asking for big stuff from gods like “Kill that dumb wizard over who’s trying to kill me” as soon as your daily mythic commune ability lets you know someone is out to get you. So Schrodinger’s wizard is countered by Schrodingers demi-god because Demi-god > Wizard because of potentially unlimited Miracles and Wishes, Miracle especially because it has the Clause “Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request.”, examples being bring armies back from the dead, stop volcanoes, etc. Others might argue that Blood Money can make for Unlimited wishes more effectively than Divine Source but it’s gonna be tough to pump your STR up past 50 reliably as a Wizard. Likewise the Fighter could also have Undetectable on his Legendary Item which means the Wizard will never ever be able to find him ever. It’s bad news. Fighter has greater invisibility, shouts “I’ll kill you!” then moves away in some direction. Both roll for initiative (surprise round), Wizard wins (or fighter lets him win). Wizard does stuff for however many rounds he feels like (time stop, etc) but can never find fighter no matter how hard he tries. On Fighters eventual turn he kills Wizard with one mighty blow. If mighty blow does not work then Fighter moves and repeats above tactics. The Wizard can run away but the Fighter will always win eventually because he can’t be found. We will say nothing of Divine Source powers in this case; if FIghter can Divine Source stuff then it’s even less fair. Yes, the Mythic Fighter clearly won (in my mind anyway) by stealing the Wizard’s coolest toys with god-power and then beating him to death with them. Not to mention the 10th Tier ability that explicitly states you can only be killed by artifacts or a coup de grace by someone who is Mythic. Likewise Mythic Saves gives you Evasion with all your saves. Amazing Initiative and Mythic Improved Initiative means you will always go first. Sorry for being so long-winded, felt it was necessary. Maybe we can put this thread to rest without having to make crazy builds and arenas to fight in. Maybe.
You could try having another deity approach the paladin? I like this one the best personally. Have a cleric of a god more...compatible...with the paladin's ethos approach the paladin and offer to help them regain their powers but in the service of a diety with a more...grimdark...view on Lawful Good.
Many players can make good educated guesses about whether or not their save/attack/skill check succeeded or failed before the GM announces so and then can 're-roll accordingly
Mindblank plus well hidden location. No one can Wish themselves there if no can knows you're location
Wrong John Silver, that's the perfect way to RP someone of the opposite gender. Speaking again about my current game group; no one can usually tell that I am playing a female character unless I a. tell them directly or b. do something obviously telling. Many years ago I had a GM who was staunchly against roleplaying outside of your IRL gender roles because he thought it would be "weird and distracting." So I, being the sneaky bastard that I am, RP'ed a female in his game anyway. I left the gender tab on the character sheet blank, picked a suitable non-gendered name (Umi) and went to work. I took some steps to hide her gender identitiy from the GM but not from NPCs. For example Umi woud always wear baggy clothes (Monk) and would typically enjoy the comforts of home (bathes and such) in the privacy of her personal room at the local inn. Later when the party was rescued by a suitable powerful (and quite handsome) male NPC she would say "Can I have your baby?" The GM thought it was a hilarious out of character joke. The other PCs (who I told or who had figured it out by this point) thought the GM's oblivious laughter was even more funny =). Also, thanks GM Under the Bridge. Indeed, no one can stop me from being fabulous.
It's astoundingly easy with mythic rules. Take divine source at rank 3 and 6 to pick up the Divine subdomain. Boom, now you have miracle as a spell-like ability once per day by 9th tier. Laugh all the way to the bank.
I was playing in a Star Wars SAGA Edition game once upon a time, back in 2011 I think. It was the very first adventure in what happened to be a long campaign. We were playing some mercs who had been sent to rescue this Jedi from a Sith compound (Legacy Era, by the way). Two things happened that really surprised our GM... The first occoured when when we discovered that Jedi we had been sent to rescue had escaped on her own. We found her in a courtyard battling her Sith captor. We entered the area just in time to see her skewered by a Sith lightsabre. Apparent mission over, complete failure. Bummer, right? Well, I check my medic character's inventory and discover he has a med kit that, if administered to a dead character within one round of death (as a full round action), will revive them. So I have our droid with jump servos (able to make huge jumps, little damage) grab my character and leap down to the fallen Jedi. I administer first aid as a full round action, barely beat the DC of the Heal check, and blamo!, healed Jedi. This Jedi went from "NPC slaughtered to demonstrate the power of the enemy" to "extremely useful NPC resource" with one DC 20 heal check. Later on in that same adventure on our way out of the facility we came across an armory loaded with weapons. Weapons and three thermal detonators (10d6 damage DC 20 reflex save for half grenades with an insane splash radius). A few rooms and encounters later we meet up with the BBEG of the adventure, the Warden of the prison. We open a blast door to see the Warden set up on a Blaster Turret in a wide room, flanked by some mmoks for support. The Warden and his crew have higher ground and that nasty Turret, so my character is sweating bullets. As we open the door and roll initiative. My medic goes first. Warden "What do we have here?" he says as he pivots the turret. The Medic replies "A Thermal Detonator!" Medic throws the Thermal Detonator (standard action) and slams the blast door shut as (a move action). The last thing we hear is the Warden say "Oh sh--!" The blast door absorbs the explosion and we open the door to find a ruined Turret, a large crater, and pieces of mook everywhere.
you are correct to specify that you do not need a hand to un jam you're gone. However, the absence of that caveat deos not imply that a hand is not needed. If you didn't need a free hand they would have mentioned it in the text perhaps. I would say a hand is necessary, since you need a free hand to reload it makes sense you would need one to unjam. In fact, it may be better to holster your other sidearm, or drop it, so you can have a free hand to reload that turn anyway.
I do something similar to the veteran gamer described above. Sometimes I play a character who is dumb as a rock and would likewise have a tough time thinking tactically. Personally, I think tactically almost automatically. So sometimes my conversations go like this: Me playing as a big dumb fighter: "Ok guys, we all need to be arranged exactly like this on the battle map for maximum damage from the wizard fireball. And look, you move the rogue here and he has flanking!
I agree. Also, here's some other ways: 1. To kill his character while he sleeps. This was mentioned before, and it is a goodie. You can do other mean things to his character while he sleeps, like poison him or shave his eyebrows off. 2. At 8th level his invisibility purge goes out to a 40 foot radius. Stay out of the radius. Also, it only lasts for 8 minutes at that level. As an 8th level Oracle with (guessing) a +5 Charisma mod he should only be able to cast that spell 6 times a day. If he wants to play ball then you just wait him out. He will run out of spells; you won't. 3. Ping him to death. Seriously, you don't even need to sneak attack all the time. That shortbow has an immense range (70ft). Stay well back (like 3 range increments, 210 feet) be invisible and shoot away. The lack of dex will negate the range penalty, and the penalty to perception checks at that distance is so huge that he won't even be able to tell where the arrow came from. Also, bring lots of arrows cause it's gonna be a long fight. 4. Buy a bucket of holy water. Douse him it; being kind of a zombie he will likely burn. 5. Undead tend to have low forts saves but are still required to make them againsts spells that can target objects too. Buy a scroll of disintergrate, or polymorph any object. 6. There is a host of spells that only work on undead that are quite nasty. Buy some scrolls of those. At the end of the day remember to play to your strengths. Those being that a. You don't run out of sneak attack. b. You are faster than him. and c. He will eventually run out of spells. And will always have this gem of a phrase as a standby: "Kill my character today and the next character I make will have a life goal of murdering your character, and will be built from the ground up to do so. I'll go the forums and they will make me a monster and it will EAT YOUR FACE."
You're barbarian screams with all of his might, takes a few moments to breath heavily (a free action) then continues raging. Youtube a UFC fight; these guys take "breaks" mid fight all the time. Same with boxers. |