Aroden's not dead, he just went home...

Imbicatus wrote:

Okay, a pit fiend regularly fights demons and daemons and decides to cast protection from evil to give himself an edge. Devils regularly fight with other evil entities. After two castings, they are neutral and three more and they can take levels in paladin.

Outsiders can't change alignment in the same way that mortals can. The rules are PC-focused.

So my Aasimar Paladin (an Outsider) can't change alignment and will never fall? Time to go slaughter that ungrateful orphanage!

My favorite plot twists always come from when my players mess up or screw around and I decide to screw with their minds. Once, a player in Rise of the Rulelords discovered a strange wererat (stuck in his hybrid mode) locked in an asylum. The wererat started talking to the group's rogue, promising to give him the wererat's greatest treasure if he would only let him out of the cage... and was totally shocked when the wererat bit him and ran away. The group proceeded to chase him all around the nearby woods, and ended up killing him right before he got into town. But not before he had bitten the rogue, fighter, and Sorceress... the only one to fail the save and contract lycanthropy was said Sorceress. Group starts looking for a cure when they realized they have been bitten, and all drink wolfsbane. This is fine, but Sorc failed resave. Enter Metagamey player during next phase of moon, realizing that the Sorc is still infected. During attempts to cure her I realize that Metagame is looking at Lycanthrope stats in Bestiary... So I tell them it's Primal Lycanthropy... this lead to about 6 months of them on and off trying to cure her Primal Lycanthropy, and then after all that time and effort they find out some info about Primal Lycanthropy; two big things in particular.
1. It's only curable until she kills a sentient creature while under its effects.
2. How to cure it.

This is the day before the full moon. They take this info (which they got from an old half blind Sczarni Harrow Seer) and immediately set out to cure the Lycanthropy. No, wait, they instead got distracted by the sexy Sczarni dancers and spent the day dancing their troubles away at the Sczarni encampment....

As per your opinion on Witches, the Patrons still have to have power to give. A granny can't be a Patron, unless she secretly has massive power to bestow to others for potentially nefarious purposes.

Necro in the house! The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750 gp. Wands are assumed to be made at minimum caster level unless stated otherwise.

Cleric doesn't need to be better, it is one of the strongest classes as it.

Quintin Verassi wrote:

Mallecks wrote:

thaX wrote:

It is tracked against HP, if the total of Lethal and Non Lethal go beyond max HP, ya got knocked out. Not sure how this is not HP.

Peace.

Sure, I can explain it with a question.

Let's say you have 10 HP. You take 1 nonlethal damage.

How much HP do you have left?

Quintin Verassi wrote:

So I found nothing that mentions that non lethal damage isn't hit point damage. Interestingly enough, under healing non lethal damage, it says non lethal heals at a rate of 1 Hit Point per Hour. That implies to me that it is in fact hit points unless I can see a quote otherwise.

I think I stated this earlier in the thread, but the one of the two major arguments here is...

"Nonlethal Damage is damage that is measured in hit points, and is therefore, hit point damage."

** spoiler omitted **...

You didn't address the point that the healing Non-Lethal damage rules on the PRD clearly state that Non-Lethal damage heals at a rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. That was cut and paste directly from the Non-Lethal damage section, and clearly states that Non-Lethal is a form of Hit Point damage. Your quote about magical healing do not address this at all.

Nonlethal hit points are not the same as hit points in the same way that nonlethal damage is not the same as damage.

Ah, but Gallant, you just said that Nonlethal Hit points are a thing. I am damaging them. This is Hit Point damage for Power Attack. Power Attack merely states that it doesn't work on things that don't cause Hit Point damage. If you wanted it to only work on Lethal Hit Point damage, PA would need to state that.

+1 for Irontruth's suggestion. Let one of the threads die, this BS is clogging my attention in a way it doesn't need to.

I've found the Mindblade Magus, and the Kineticist has the melee infusion, but both of those aren't what I was hoping for - Mindblade is focused on dual wielding, and Kineticist... isn't what I hope for, for a number of reasons to do with how the class was implemented

Mindblade isn't focused on dual wielding, it just is able to. You start out with the ability to summon a light weapon for 1 psychic point, a one-handed weapon for 2 psychic points, and a two-handed weapon for three psychic points. Later on they can summon and maintain 2 weapons, but they aren't required to, and don't gain all that many bonuses for doing so. A STR magus gets a lot out of the 2-handed weapon. Additionally, because how psychic spells are cast, Mindblades are better off focusing on buff spells than damage spells.

1. Alchemists are bad healers, and shouldn't even main heal with the discoveries they have that Investigators don't.
2. Investigators have Alchemy, but unlike Alchemists they cannot use Wands without UMD.
3. They can take the infusion discovery with one of their talents, but this just lets others use their extracts, which is a very limited pool for healing.

You might be able to get around these issues, but low and high levels will be a real pain.

thaX wrote:

It is tracked against HP, if the total of Lethal and Non Lethal go beyond max HP, ya got knocked out. Not sure how this is not HP.

Peace.

Sure, I can explain it with a question.

Let's say you have 10 HP. You take 1 nonlethal damage.

How much HP do you have left?

Quintin Verassi wrote:

So I found nothing that mentions that non lethal damage isn't hit point damage. Interestingly enough, under healing non lethal damage, it says non lethal heals at a rate of 1 Hit Point per Hour. That implies to me that it is in fact hit points unless I can see a quote otherwise.

I think I stated this earlier in the thread, but the one of the two major arguments here is...

"Nonlethal Damage is damage that is measured in hit points, and is therefore, hit point damage."

** spoiler omitted **...

You didn't address the point that the healing Non-Lethal damage rules on the PRD clearly state that Non-Lethal damage heals at a rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. That was cut and paste directly from the Non-Lethal damage section, and clearly states that Non-Lethal is a form of Hit Point damage. Your quote about magical healing do not address this at all.

Damage

Damage
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal.

Damage reduces a target's current hit points.

Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.

Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.

Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

Ability Damage: Certain creatures and magical effects can cause temporary or permanent ability damage (a reduction to an ability score).

Hit Points

When your hit point total reaches 0, you're disabled. When it reaches –1, you're dying. When it gets to a negative amount equal to your Constitution score, you're dead. See Injury and Death, for more information.

Nonlethal Damage

Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening. Unlike normal damage, nonlethal damage is healed quickly with rest.

Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage: You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage: You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Staggered and Unconscious: When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round (in addition to free, immediate, and swift actions). You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.

When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.

Spellcasters who fall unconscious retain any spellcasting ability they had before going unconscious.

If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.

Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

So I found nothing that mentions that non lethal damage isn't hit point damage. Interestingly enough, under healing non lethal damage, it says non lethal heals at a rate of 1 Hit Point per Hour. That implies to me that it is in fact hit points unless I can see a quote otherwise.

Murderous Command.... just for fun...

Sniping is a little different:

Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).

So it calls out that you need to reference sniping in the CRB skill chapter as a use of stealth.

Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

Since the first references except when sniping I would, just to cover my own posterior, announce when making the attack that I was sniping. There are of course the standard arguments against making only a single attack in a round as being sub-optimal, but there are some builds that could be fun with it with an appropriate setup.

I don't think that's how that works. If you read further, it states specifically:

Manifestation (Su): Upon reaching 20th level, a shaman undergoes a transformation as she manifests as a pinnacle of her main spirit. The nature of this manifestation depends on the shaman's spirit, and is described in the spirit's entry.

So manifestation says that what you get is limited by the Spirit's entry. Just as an example, Battle (literally the first spirit on the list):

Manifestation: Upon reaching 20th level, the shaman becomes a spirit of battle. As a full-round action, she can make a full attack and move up to her speed (either before or after the attacks). Whenever she scores a critical hit, the attack ignores damage reduction. She gains a +4 insight bonus to AC for the purpose of confirming critical hits against her. If she is reduced to fewer than 0 hit points, she does not die until her negative hit point total exceeds double her Constitution score.

Nothing in this indicates to me that they gain the ability to grant spells or become Gods/Major Spirits/Other things capable of granting divine spells.

Pax Miles wrote:

Gallant Armor wrote:

thaX wrote:

To be quite frank, GA, I am still going to use Power Attack with Non Lethal Damage with my Earth Breaker in PFS. This interpretation you have for this interaction is simply not in line with the rest of the game. It is beyond the scope of what was and is intended, and I only hope you don't have this same confusion on your part with the new ruleset in August of 2019.

The rules don't stop being the rules just because you really want something to work.

This game isn't clear cut enough for this sort of interpretation (Directed at you, Gallant Armor). If a rules interpretation breaks the ruleset, doesn't matter how supported by RAW, that answer is wrong.

Making the game unplayable should not be the goal of rules lawyering.

You want to find some fun loophole, go for it, but if the loophole isn't fun because it just creates arguments, the GM should ban it (if they haven't already).

Your HP and lethal thing. Ignore the RAW for a sec. When playing with others, how do they rule it? Which approach makes the game run smoother? Which approach is easiest to implement? Which approach makes the game more fun?

These games are a democracy. I know, RAW says one thing, but ultimately, people can just quit if they don't like how a rule works, and the players just want to play. So, you can firmly argue RAW and play by yourself, or you can use the rules that make the game fun and play in a group. This doesn't mean ignore the rules as written, but pick your battles - fight the ones that benefit the group, and don't argue as fiercely for the ones that don't benefit the game.

So, back to the debate, how does the ruling that HP isn't non-lethal make the game better? I'm not on either side per say, I just want to have fun while playing. Explain how your arguement makes the game work better and I'll be on your side.

If we are delving into pure opinion, I think it makes more sense to not be able to deal extra damage with those feats...

I don't care how hard you swing a Nerf bat, it still takes a long time to beat someone to death with it... a Non-Lethal weapon does Non-Lethal damage. Power Attack may mean you are swinging harder, but doesn't mean you are able to deal lethal damage with a sap or whip, but I can still swing it very hard....

Hey, I suggested the White Necromancer, which literally removes the evil descriptor from it. :P

Yeah, but 1. Many GMs in my experience don't care for 3rd Party;

Hauk should probably be a club instead of mace, as that's the way I recall it be described in the second book of the Deed of Paksenarrion. Tir is the sword master and focused on war, so for domains maybe Artifice, Strength, and War? Favored weapon could be the Bastard Sword.
Spiked Chain might work for Liart, but so too would the whip and/or scorpion whip.

I think it's truly hard for them, because, basically, you'll have to look at EVERY previously released feat or class ability to see how the wording would collide with the description of their new content.

That's also why playing by RAW is, imho, totaly ridiculous. You'll only build a situation with infinite debates and abuses from the players.

What is suited for coherent campaigns is to understand the INTENT behind the feat. aka RAI. If you understand the intent of the author, you understand 90% of the time what is allowed and what's not.
For exemple, a Phallanx fighter is intented to allow the use of a spear and a shield together with no penality... you know, like a phallanx. NOT make the spear finessable.

For Bladed Brush, it's a bit less evident, but the description says that you basicaly are not considered as using you off-hand when using the Glaive, which is precisely the condition for using Slashing Grace... so I'll bet it was intented to allow this mix.
It even explicitely allows the Swashbuckler Precise Strike, which is quite similar to Slashing Grace in its behavior.

While I understand what you are saying here, the problem I run across is people who go around stating something is RAI with no proof, and then seem surprised when the Errata/FAQ/Dev comment doesn't agree with them. And that's the best case, when it doesn't get Errata/FAQ/Dev commented it can be widely accepted and still be wrong, or there can be different ideas of RAI in a single case.

My advice is simple. Talk to your GM and see if he considers casting spells with the [Evil] descriptor an evil action. There is nothing that inherently says they are, and one reason that descriptor exists is as a limiter of clerics (they CANNOT cast spells with descriptors of alignments opposite their deity's.) Further, while this isn't a good case of rules or lore but more of making such a campaign work, the Pathfinder Society doesn't consider casting [Evil] spells an evil act.

Moonheart, while I agree that knowing which setting was the default for D&D is not necessarily important to the point of the thread, I brought it up to counter your idea that Sorcery Magic in 3.x comes from the ideas of Forgotten Realms. Do you ever see Gandalf or any other big wizard in fantasy using a spell book, or just casting off of spells they know?

It is Cheliax, so you may be able to circumvent the certification by providing proof of financial stability (legalistic wording for a large bribe) or by showing incontrovertible proof to the local bureaucrat that you are qualified (doing his dirty deeds, no questions asked.)

Paladin. Hospitaler is the best healer in the game IMO. Channels, large pool of Lay on Hands not linked to channels, some casting (lags a bit behind here, but Mercies can make up for it.)

Look at the feat options:
Greater Mercy, (extra d6 on lay on hands if subject doesn't need one of your mercies)
Ultimate Mercy (expend 10 lay on hands to raise dead, can ignore material components of spell by accepting a temporary negative level for 24hours that can't become permanent)
Word of Healing (Lay on Hands from 30ft but only heals half, still applies mercies).

Power Attack has no relationship to STR or DEX Mods, it is a scaling bonus.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Its only relationship to STR is that STR 13 or better is required.

Deadly Agility is a 3rd Party feat for Path of War, so might want to check with your GM on how they feel with that.

Zarius, what does treat as a one-handed mean to you then? What purpose does it fill if not this exact situation?

Quintin Verassi wrote:

For the record, Jotungrip (the previous ability for Titan Mauler) has nothing to do with Massive Weapons. It is a separate ability for other builds of the Titan Mauler, and only works with appropriately sized weapons. Gallant, do you think a normal creature could wield a small sized longbow? Under your argument they can't....

Jungotrip also has nothing to do with why Massive Weapons doesn't work with a bow. The reason it doesn't work RAW is that ranged weapons aren't given size categories as I mentioned in my post. I would agree that it is a reasonable homerule to allow it to work given that a longbow would likely be classified as a two-handed weapon by size.

As for a small sized longbow, there are no rules allowing for it so it wouldn't work RAW, but I think it would be a reasonable homerule to allow for a medium creature with or without any special abilities regarding over/undersized weapons to wield a small longbow as it would likely be classified as a one-handed weapon by size category (but not by hands required to use).

Both the Titan Fighter and Titan Mauler's earlier abilities call out melee weapons in particular but the 3rd level abilities are worded in a way that could be argued to allow for wielding a large bow. I don't think it holds up RAW as Incredible Heft uses the phrase "more skilled" which implies a continuation of the precious ability which requires using a melee weapon and Massive Weapons requires a two handed weapon and ranged weapons do not get size categories.

Specifically calling out the idea Massive Weapons works based off earlier abilities. This is plain false. It doesn't scale, isn't a more skilled, it is entirely unconnected.

Note that the ability says that: You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty.

Large is specially called out. You can use Large weapons without penalty. Yeah, you keep restating the same points, and claiming unrelated class abilites prove your points, but it is like linking Slashing Grace in a discussion about Dervish Dance. The rules are unrelated, and no matter how many times you bring up Titan Mauler/Fighter doesn't change the fact that they aren't related.

As far as hands, or the inappropriate weapon size, that is a general rule; Specific rules (Feats/Abilities) override General rules.

Its from the Vampire Hunter D supplement.

My only major issue with the class is a d8 hit dice on a full BAB class. Still not sure who thought breaking pathfinder design philosophy was a good idea

You mean like the 4 level caster class on a d8 hit die with a 3/4 BAB? Occult broke class design already.

PRD Uncanny Dodge:Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.

If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Going more literally, the only ways a rogue can lose their dex bonus as called out under uncanny dodge is to be feinted or to be immobilized. Those are the listed conditions for denying a rogue their dex to AC, and are the only ways to do so by a literalist interpretation. This ability calls out the ways you can SA a rogue, and if you don't like it tough.

For the record, Jotungrip (the previous ability for Titan Mauler) has nothing to do with Massive Weapons. It is a separate ability for other builds of the Titan Mauler, and only works with appropriately sized weapons. Gallant, do you think a normal creature could wield a small sized longbow? Under your argument they can't....

Try looking for urban fantasy posters/pictures. I know there are several popular authors who write in the genre, and there should be some fan art out there.

So, Guided Hand has the same weakness as Weapon Finesse builds that don't/can't gain dex to damage: you do poor damage, although you seem to be trying to stack dice for that. This does seem to work, although I have a few questions about plans. Is this an undead hunter, or are you planning to channel negative energy? Are you aware that at 7th level you get only 4 channels a day with this build, and lose the awesome Fervor ability to cast buff spells on yourself in combat; this can be a very powerful ability that allows you to become far stronger the longer a fight drags on. Finding a way to cast mage armor would be... beneficial. The enhancement from Magic Vestment stacks with the armor bonus from Mage Armor, and both are hours/level.

Afterlife for her worshipers is to crew her Warship (making them Warshippers) as she runs Pirate Raids on: Heaven, Hell, The Abyss, The Maelstrom, Elysium, and Abaddon. At least, she may also raid other places.

Ah, I didn't think of 5e, as I have never played it. I read the PHB and Noped out on my local group that was into it. As far as Pathfinder coming from D&D and that being based on FR, Pathfinder and its version of sorcerer, split long before 5e was ever considered. The rest of Moonheart's post flows from the mistaken idea that PF has any real relationship to FR; if PF was related to any of the D&D settings it is most definitely Eberron. The Sorcerer was 3.0 material, written (just guessing here, but fits the facts) to emulate many many many fantasy novels where "accidental" spellcasters existed, something you can't really have in D&D's wizardry system.

Greyhawk is and has been the default setting since 2nd Ed at least, and FR has NEVER been the default setting. Sorcerers came out of a desire to emulate magic users in many settings who do not study or prepare spells, who have no book learning and have access to innate magic as opposed to mastery over the written word. How do they figure out gesture A, Motion B, and thought C makes a spell? They don't figure it out, they don't study, they just know. In Pathfinder the magic is literally in the Sorcerer's Blood.

According to the PRD, Uncanny dodge:
cannot be caught flat-footed, lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible, still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action.

Improved Uncanny Dodge:
This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

So, you can SA opponents with UD and IUD by flanking, and in the case of IUD being 4 more levels of rogue than they are. Feint also works. While Blinded isn't specifically mentioned, common sense says that not being able to see someone (Invisibility) is the same as not being able to see someone (Blinded).

I can Two Weapon Fight with Dervish Dance if I don't use a weapon. I can use Improved Unarmed Strike to deliver a blow with my off hand, and Dervish Dance continues to work as worded. You are claiming that a FAQ, whose wording is completely different, both before and after the FAQ. You then state that the FAQ was for balance, which you have no way of knowing. The Slashing Grace/Fencing Grace changes may well be for fluff reasons. You can't just uniformly decide to apply a FAQ about one thing to something else, no matter how similar you think they are.

Scimitars are not light weapons, nor do they state that they can be used with weapon finesse. Without Slashing Grace or Dervish Dance, you can't Dex to hit with a scimitar. Nor can you use agile on a weapon that cannot be finessed.

Going to dig up this dead horse with some malicious intent here. I am going to be honest, and admit I wasn't really paying attention to the exact wording earlier. The feat, which is from a non 3.5 source, that is part of the hard cover book line, clearly states carrying in the hand. The intricacies of two weapon fighting, Spell Combat, Spellstrike, or long division don't enter the rules discussion on this. RAW, this feat is not and has never been a part of the "Grace" FAQ/Errata. This feat works with Spell combat as written, as your hand isn't carrying a spell. (I am willing to be proven wrong on the idea that your hand is carrying the spell if someone can show a rules precedent.)

I believe that BNW very first post in this thread admitted that the RAW is correct about being able to use it, under his "Why it should work" category. So, if you are enforcing a rule that is a FAQ/Errata that doesn't apply to the feat in question because you disagree with it, then you as the Gamemaster are cheating. In a home game you have the right to say everything that he points out in his "Why it shouldn't work" section and justify your exclusion from it working on those reasons. PFS is RAW, and this interpretation doesn't have any RAW to stand on. I will also say I disagree with his interpretation of the intent as well, which is why RAI is a bad idea in organized play environments. Dervishes are frequently in fiction and reality equated with Mysticism, and the archetype that grants it to you as a bonus feat is skilled in combat casting.

So, prove me wrong. Show me where TWF requires the off hand be carrying something. Show me where Spell Combat and/or Spellstrike states you are carrying the spell in your off hand. Show me any RAW to support this position and that people aren't acting as the Fun Police because they don't like a playstyle or a concept and have taken it upon themselves to remove it from the campaign.

Honestly, I never use quickdraw with the shield... why lower my flat footed AC? TWF penalties on a heavy steel shield are a bit harsh, until you get Shield Master, or you just take the Gorum faith trait that makes Heavy Shields a light weapons for TWF. Honestly, despite what Nefreet has written, I feel Light Shields lack a purpose in Pathfinder. The base armors and equipment should have unique rules or flavor to make them interesting to have.

As a side note... folding cannot do light shields. So starting with a quick draw mithril light metal shield covers a lot of bases for cheap.

Why would anyone ever want a Light Shield? Buckler is same AC, lighter and leaves hand free for shenanigans. Heavy shield is better AC and shield bash damage.... And Tower Shields are Tower Shields. Why would I want worst shield in game?

Quintin Verassi wrote:

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but maybe it wasn't banned for mechanical reasons? Perhaps the Campaign leadership didn't want more Fey oriented characters or found something about the fluff of the source not suitable?

I know its not the fact that they didn't want more Fey oriented characters because the best deific obedience in the entire game is one they purposely wrote into the campaign for one of the eldest.

No, you don't know that they don't want more fey oriented characters, you suspect because you have a good and logical reason to. To know for a fact you would have to be campaign management, or have had them tell you their reasons. For that obedience do you have to be Fey, or just worship one of the Eldest? There is a bit of the difference between the two.

So for those stating that the hang up is on like 2 weapon fighting, let me ask you about a similar rule issue that I have seen in my local lodge.

Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

So, what do you include as "the like" here? Other feats? Can I Slashing Grace my greatsword? TWF? What does like mean here?

If Spell Combat doesn't work with Dervish Dance, to be logically consistent, do you think Jotungrip works with TWF?

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but maybe it wasn't banned for mechanical reasons? Perhaps the Campaign leadership didn't want more Fey oriented characters or found something about the fluff of the source not suitable?

So, I thought it was time to add my 2 copper pieces. With Spell Combat, you deliver the touch attack through the off hand, making it an unarmed touch attack. Can you make an Unarmed Strike through your off hand? I don't see anything that prevents it, as my fist isn't a weapon weilded. If you can make the unarmed strike, then you can Spell Combat, if not then you can't.

While Spellstrike refers to Spell Combat, you do not make the strike with your off hand, and it is delivered through the scimitar. It doesn't interact with the off hand, except that it must be free. You don't use it as a part of the attack at any point.

While I think that Spell Combat should work with Dervish Dance, I can see some room for disagreement and discussion. Spellstrike just works with it unless you can come up with more than "But your hand is occupied." That isn't a factor for Dervish Dance as written.

Magusflurry is deceptive. It isn't flurry, and is just how Spellstrike works. There are magus builds that flurry, and have other "burst" attacks that work similarly.

supervillan wrote:

I think Lau's nailed it, really.

Spell combat is "like" two-weapon fighting in that you get a -2 on your attacks during the spell combat full attack action, and in that you are getting an extra attack. And that's it. Because no other similarities are called out. Spell combat is not two-weapon fighting, it just shares some features with two-weapon fighting, and the features that it shares are all called out.

Okay, if that's the only similarity can I two weapon fight and magusflurry in the same round?

What is Magusflurry?

andreww wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

So they didn't deliberately end dex magi they just wanted them packing the pews of the temple of saranrae?

They did not because they didn't errata dervish. If they wanted to remove both options they would have changed both.

Except they only erratta when they reprint and they don't reprint the line that dervish dance came out of.

Inner Sea World Guide? I know it's in Qadira, but it's also in ISWG, which is a hard-cover book.

Also, this is something that would absolutely cause me to walk away from a table and avoid a PFS GM from that point on. He is taking one ruling on a set of specific rule/item and applying it to something it isn't stated to apply to. This can be argued as GM variation, but it could be called cheating as well. Flat out altering the rules of feats or abilities is beyond the powers of a PFS GM.

Chained Monks don't get any sort of bonus to initiative. You see Dex based chained monks as a reactive defense of "I can't get enough stats to be good at anything, so I am forced to optimize down one path." You could build an Unchained Monk like a standard monk, Agile AMoF, but you are no longer forced to. In some martial arts films and styles speed isn't every thing. Maybe having the strength to end a fight in a single blow is now what you are going for. Maybe you want the Con to stand on the front line like a barbarian now that you have the hit die for it. Unchained monk did break some things for me (mostly archetypes I love), but it made all monks much less cookie cutter.

The ability to wield the weapon one handed is not in question, the ability to use it in the offhand to gain extra attacks is what we are talking about.

Yes, you can use a shield with that build.

Quintin,

"...and the like." is talking about the use of abilities as you are wielding the weapon One Handed. It does not change the weapon into a One Handed weapon, which is what is needed to use it with TWF, with or without the feat.

Remember, the feat only takes down the penalties for TWF. TWF can be done by the character at any time, but the character can only wield a One Handed or Light weapon in the off hand.

My last post on this unless anyone offers something new.

Can you show me a source on that? There are race and class options that grant extra arms, so is your claim that a vestigial arm doesn't let an alchemist dual wield 2handed weapons? How about Kasathans? I don't see anything that would prevent this.

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.

Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.

Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat –2 –2

Note that nothing in this section mentions One or Two Handed Weapons. The penalties are fixed, and light weapons reduce them, but One Handed isn't listed as a necessity.

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.

Doesn't state you cannot dual wield.

Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)

You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.

Prerequisite: Dex 15.

Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.

Again, note a lack of limitations on Two Handed Weapons.

So, if you can show me a rules source for Two Handed Weapons and not being able to dual wield, please let me know: I really do wish to increase my rules knowledge in general.

Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

And the like is certainly the issue hear, and I suspect that it will require some Campaign FAQ or Clarification. Until such happens though, my stance as a player and a gamemaster is as follows:

The and the like applies to all Character options (feats and class abilities, including twf if you have the feat) but not all System options. This means that without the feat you couldn't TWF. You could never enchant for Agile or any property that requires a 1H weapon, as it is a 2H weapon. Saying that this is a RAW with such an open ended rule though is a bit short sighted.

Saddle slot is a magical item slot. Normal, mundane gear worn does not interfere or interact with the Magical Item Slots, Either in mounts or in Characters. Wearing a robe doesn't prevent a monk from wearing a (Chest [Body]) slot item. Exotic saddles can be worn, if they aren't magical.

My google-fu fails me right now, but I could swear that there was a rule that FAQs only effect the things they specifically stated they effect. In other words, don't extrapolate anything from FAQs but take them at face values.

Paladins need deities. The second quote linked, a quote by mister Jacobs, is a direct reply to a question about Gray Paladins. You asked this question, so I am not going to rehash it, but he replies about Gray Paladins needing a Deity as a specific set of paladins, but ignores the part of the rules for them that states:

Alignment: A gray paladin can be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good, though she must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.

This states that Paladins need a deity, specifically one of Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Lawful Neutral Alignment. While this isn't specifically stated in the core book, neither is it contradicted. Paladins are divine casters. Read their description from the Core rulebook:

Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine.

Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and
lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and lawbringers,
paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but
to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve.
In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of
morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness,
these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them
in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent,
and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might
lead them into conf lict with the very souls they would
save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark
temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to
bring about a brighter future.

What about that indicates in anyway that there are atheist paladins, or ones that choose to not to follow a god? They are Holy Champions. Not Fighters with cool powers cause I'm LG nanana.