Thoughts on Titan Mauler build


Advice

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So I've been looking at the Titan Mauler archetype for the Barbarian. I know that RAW means that it cannot be used as the original writer wished BUT, I still believe there is a lot of potential for this archetype to kick some serious butt and here's how:

- Jotungrip means you can do TWF with TH weapons. So if I use 2 Nodachi's with Keen I feel like a crit machine is already getting started early on.

- Abyssal Blood Rage Power means I can go from Medium to Large once per day for an entire engagement basically.

After getting to Level 6 for Abyssal Blood I'm thinking of swapping to Two-Weapon Warrior for the rest of my levels. Thoughts?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You can not TWF with Two Handed weapons. Not at all.

There is no Off Hand use for a Two Handed weapon, no matter how many hands it takes to wield it. Though one can wield the weapon One Handed (or treats it like a one handed weapon), it does not lose the Two Handed quality. The weapon in your off hand needs to be a One Handed or Light Weapon.

There are some things you can do to effect some damage output for the Titan archtypes (Mauler and Fighter) that is discussed in another thread, like using Enlarge, using Lead Blades, and Vital Strike.

Liberty's Edge

I multiclassed Armor Master and Titan Mauler using a Greatsword and Tower Shield and focused on mobile Vital Strike.

He reached 12th years ago, but in hindsight I would have upped his Intelligence for more skills. I think he pretty much had just Acrobatics and Perception and couldn't contribute much outside of combat.

Grand Lodge

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Hillis Mallory III wrote:

You can not TWF with Two Handed weapons. Not at all.

There is no Off Hand use for a Two Handed weapon, no matter how many hands it takes to wield it. Though one can wield the weapon One Handed (or treats it like a one handed weapon), it does not lose the Two Handed quality. The weapon in your off hand needs to be a One Handed or Light Weapon.

There are some things you can do to effect some damage output for the Titan archtypes (Mauler and Fighter) that is discussed in another thread, like using Enlarge, using Lead Blades, and Vital Strike.

That's certainly one view of it.

But you can equally argue that if you're treating it as 1 handed that you can also treat it as 1 handed for TWFing rules and thus it works.
There's not a clear RAW on this so it doesn't help to tell someone they absolutely cannot do it. Saying it's subject to table variation would be a far more true statement.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As we disagree, keep in mind that the Inappropriately Sized Weapon section is not used in relation to this issue. Though the weapon is used differently by the wielder, it does not change what that weapon is. Just as a One Handed weapon is not Two Handed when used in such a way, a Two Handed weapon is not One Handed when used as such.

A Light weapon is always a light weapon, and can not be used Two Handed like a One Handed weapon can be. Two Weapon Fighting, in the designations, TWF rules and the feats, denotes that a One Handed or Light weapon should be used in the Off Hand. Nothing in any ability changes that restriction.

Though the wielder considers the weapon "one handed" in some instances, the weapon still considers that restriction irregardless.

The character certainly can wield both Two Handed weapons at the same time if he chooses, but he will not get the extra attacks afforded him by TWF until he wields the correct weapon in the off hand (One Handed or Light).

Logistically, the weapons themselves are the same size as the character, so it is nigh impossible to even lift both of the weapons at the same time, let alone wield them.

Grand Lodge

It would not work as while the archetype allows the player to wield it one-handed, it does not specify it is for the purposes of TWF, it is said only for Power Attack, strength bonus and the like. Table variation is one thing, stating that a player should not do so because of that because of precautionary reasons would be more accurate.

Even in the case it is explicitly allowed, the minuses are high enough that the fun gets buried behind the mechanical penalties, worse for full barbarians due to their very few feats. -2 because of the basic premise, -4 because the weapon penalties still applying because the secondary weapon is not light. So -6 to hit with the primary weapon, for the secondary weapon it is exactly the same thing. Abyssal Blood won't change anything because the PC's size is one higher, but so does the weapon. The strength won is offsetted by the attack penalty. Outside of Double Slice, the damage of the secondary weapon wouldn't be much better than those of a Light steel shield in bashing mode from a fighter.

Given the barbarian at level 6 will likely have 24 strength while raging and possibly +1 Furious weapons, TWF/Improved TWF and +6 BAB :
+16/+11 which would translate to +10/+5 due to penalties, and Power Attack will make it +8/+3. Without help from other PCs, not good crunches.

The archetype is considered a bad idea from many people.

Grand Lodge

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This thread is the epitome of one if the main reasons I've signicantly cut back on PFS games as of late. Far too many GMs pushing their interpretation of ambiguous rules as the only valid one.

It's fine to say you don't think it should work because you interpret "and the like" to not include TWFing. what's not fine is to act as if that phrase is lacking in ambiguity and completely rules out TWFing working.

I can deal with GMs saying that they don't think it should work and accept their decision. I can't deal with people who assert that clearly vague text can only be read their way.

Grand Lodge

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On the opposite, there are players trying to constantly test the limits of the organized play, which only antagonizes a no small amount of GMs. Saying only the latters are guilty of the current problems is then not fair.

Grand Lodge

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To be fair, I never suggested that the reverse never happens. Simply that what I mentioned is one of the things that has caused me to cut back on PFS play.

I've certainly seen what you've described as well, though less commonly in my experience.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As I have had players trying to double wield Earthbreakers (Thunder and Fang feat) or wield one larger one, I have had a very good look at the particulars on this for some time.


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I'll give you there's some grey on what is included in "and the like" but how is thunder and fang any different than a bastard sword?

The Exchange

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Hillis Mallory III wrote:
As I have had players trying to double wield Earthbreakers (Thunder and Fang feat) or wield one larger one, I have had a very good look at the particulars on this for some time.

I completely agree with you on the Titan Mauler.

But you should certainly be able to dual-wield Earth Breakers with Thunder and Fang. "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon." There are no qualifiers on that statement. You don't have to be wielding a Klar, you just treat an earth breaker as one-handed. Similarly that should allow you to wield a large Earth Breaker in two hands.

Yes, the feat certainly seems to be intended as a way to use an earthbreaker in one hand and a klar in the other, but that's not a requirement.

Liberty's Edge

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You cannot dual wield Earthbreakers using Thunder and Fang.

Grand Lodge

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Well you could by the wording of the feat. That's certainly a very important Campaign Clarification.

It'd be nice if we could get one explaining what "and the like" means for the Titan Fighter now so it could stop being subject to so much table variation. I might start my own thread on that.

Liberty's Edge

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Well you could by the wording of the feat.

IIRC, there are something like 4 different printings of that feat in different books. Reading them all together it's pretty clear that you always needed a Klar in one hand, and an Earthbreaker in the other.

Grand Lodge

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Think you're remembering a different feat. As best I can tell it was only ever printed in Varisia, Birthplace of Legends and Pathfinder #10.

And Pathfinder #10 was a 3.5 era product and was extremely wonky in it's writeup. It essentially works nothing like the modern Thunder and Fang and has you still losing the klar shield bonus to AC while treating two weapons together as a double weapon.

It's clear that they wanted it to work a certain way in PFS since we have that Campaign Clarification. Not that it necessarily was always meant to work that way in Pathfinder in general. You gotta admit that it'd be a little silly if a Shoanti warrior's Klar got sundered or disarmed and he suddenly could only hold his Earthbreaker in 2 hands.

Liberty's Edge

I wouldn't think that silly at all.

My imagination depicts the Earthbreaker being braced and supported by the spikes of the Klar while two-weapon fighting.

Lose that support, and you would indeed have to two-hand the Earthbreaker.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It is considered one handed as the character wields it, but the weapon itself is still a Two Handed weapon. The parallel is a One Handed weapon being used as a Two Handed weapon as it is wielded with both hands.

The only difference between the two is that one needs a feat to do it.

Grand Lodge

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PRD wrote:
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

And the like is certainly the issue hear, and I suspect that it will require some Campaign FAQ or Clarification. Until such happens though, my stance as a player and a gamemaster is as follows:

The and the like applies to all Character options (feats and class abilities, including twf if you have the feat) but not all System options. This means that without the feat you couldn't TWF. You could never enchant for Agile or any property that requires a 1H weapon, as it is a 2H weapon. Saying that this is a RAW with such an open ended rule though is a bit short sighted.

Liberty's Edge

Wait, thaX, is it your opinion that the build I mentioned up thread, wielding a Greatsword in one hand and a Tower Shield in the other, wouldn't have been possible at your table?

Why, or why not?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The ability to wield the weapon one handed is not in question, the ability to use it in the offhand to gain extra attacks is what we are talking about.

Yes, you can use a shield with that build.

Quintin,

"...and the like." is talking about the use of abilities as you are wielding the weapon One Handed. It does not change the weapon into a One Handed weapon, which is what is needed to use it with TWF, with or without the feat.

Remember, the feat only takes down the penalties for TWF. TWF can be done by the character at any time, but the character can only wield a One Handed or Light weapon in the off hand.

My last post on this unless anyone offers something new.

Grand Lodge

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Two-Weapon Fighting wrote:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

So I can easily make the argument that if you're wielding it as a 1-handed weapon that you would use the two-weapon fighting rules for a 1-handed weapon.

"And the like" is still just as ambiguous as ever and your interpretation is far from proven to be the only valid one. Until they clarify it you're not absolutely correct. The wording can be equally interpreted for either of us to be correct.

Grand Lodge

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Hillis Mallory III wrote:

The ability to wield the weapon one handed is not in question, the ability to use it in the offhand to gain extra attacks is what we are talking about.

Yes, you can use a shield with that build.

Quintin,

"...and the like." is talking about the use of abilities as you are wielding the weapon One Handed. It does not change the weapon into a One Handed weapon, which is what is needed to use it with TWF, with or without the feat.

Remember, the feat only takes down the penalties for TWF. TWF can be done by the character at any time, but the character can only wield a One Handed or Light weapon in the off hand.

My last post on this unless anyone offers something new.

Can you show me a source on that? There are race and class options that grant extra arms, so is your claim that a vestigial arm doesn't let an alchemist dual wield 2handed weapons? How about Kasathans? I don't see anything that would prevent this.

PRD Combat wrote:

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.

Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.

Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat –2 –2

Note that nothing in this section mentions One or Two Handed Weapons. The penalties are fixed, and light weapons reduce them, but One Handed isn't listed as a necessity.

PRD Combat wrote:
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.

Doesn't state you cannot dual wield.

PRD Feats wrote:

Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)

You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.

Prerequisite: Dex 15.

Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.

Again, note a lack of limitations on Two Handed Weapons.

So, if you can show me a rules source for Two Handed Weapons and not being able to dual wield, please let me know: I really do wish to increase my rules knowledge in general.

Grand Lodge

I won't dwell much on rules theory. What is more graspeable is some of the abilities are near useless inside the PFS scope. Until level 9 (and that's being optimistic), hard to envision to hit properly with a pair of large nodachis due to the extra penalties for inappropriately-sized weapons. Titanic Rage would request a good amount of seeker content. Big Game Hunter and Evade Reach are useful in practice.

Even with less skill points a level, the fighter will do so far more efficiently. Unless specifically built around, and that would also request Vital Strike to squeeze more use off these, damage dices become less and less relevant. The static bonuses will be more important, because even with basic damage being higher, where's the point if the PC doesn't hit ? Meanwhile, the fighter can afford to spend a big amount of abilities to reduce the attack penalties to a manageable level while keeping the damage not too far behind. The better volume might then lead to overall more damage. Not a guarantee the logic works, but that's worth a shot.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Under the Weapon Designations, there is no rules set forth for off hand use for Two Handed Weapons. This is a good place to start when we discuss this, as the other two designations do.

Two Weapon Fighting is based on the weapon designation set forth earlier in the book, and further adds that Light weapons offset the penalties on top of the benefits of the feat. However, there is no mention of Two Handed weapons being able to be used, off hand or main.

As the weapon is being wielded one handed (Titan Mauler ability or another feat that allows such), it can be the main hand weapon for TWF, but the weapon itself is still a two handed weapon for that character, and can not be used in the off hand.

Now, keep in mind, it still uses the abilities and bonus effects as the weapon type that it is being wielded as, no matter if it is a light, one handed, or Two Handed weapon.

Earlier I have used the parallel of the One Handed weapon being used with two hands. This has been able to be done since the Core Rulebook was published. The weapon, however, is still a One Handed weapon, even though it is getting the bonuses and effects of a Two Handed weapon when being wielded in that way. The same is happening here in reverse.

Sczarni

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Vestigial Arms is a bad argument, because an Alchemist actually can't dual wield two-handed weapons.

This was hashed out with one of the Designers in the Rules Forum years ago.


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I don't have a dog in this fight and am joining simply for the exercise in understanding the rules. I should note that I have bias against things that exploit loopholes in the rules and don't advocate or practice hardcore munchkinism.

Hillis Mallory III wrote:
Under the Weapon Designations, there is no rules set forth for off hand use for Two Handed Weapons. This is a good place to start when we discuss this, as the other two designations do.

I have to disagree. The place to start is in the TWF section of the rules, which has been quoted:

PRD on TWF. wrote:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

The only requirement for TWF is that you must wield a weapon in your off hand. That's it. As discussed by Quintin, there is no other restriction or requirement on TWF in the TWF section. So long as you can wield a weapon in your off hand, you can employ TWF.

The question then centers one whether what you can legally wield in your off hand. So let's consult the rules:

PRD wrote:
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.

There is no restriction on what one can wield in the off hand here.

So that brings us to your weapon designation section. The paragraph starts out with this:

PRD wrote:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons:This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

This bring us to Jotungrip:

Quote:
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

Is is irrelevant what "and the like" means in this case, because the only requirement for using TWF is that you have a weapon in your off hand. Since your off-hand can legally wield the weapon, it counts as a weapon in your off-hand. It's not even ambiguous.

Quote:
Two Weapon Fighting is based on the weapon designation set forth earlier in the book...

No, that's not correct. TWF is based on being able to wield anything that counts as a weapon in your off hand.

Quote:
However, there is no mention of Two Handed weapons being able to be used, off hand or main.

Why would there be? In the core rules, you can't wield a two-handed weapon in your off-hand. A "two-handed weapon" is a weapon that must be wielded with two hands based on Size.

In fact, I believe the next section in the rules contradicts your general assertion regarding weapon designation:

PRDon Weapon Size wrote:

Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

This section tells us that a Large creature can use a medium sized two-handed weapon with one hand because a "one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder." If a medium Greatsword is the same size as a medium creature, then it is one size smaller than a Large creature, and thus can be wielded one-handed by the large creature. What's more, the weapon would be considered a Light weapon by a Huge creature.

Why do we know his is true? By the example given in the book:

PRD on Weapon Size wrote:
For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon.

So this tells us, unambiguously, that the whether a weapon can be used as Light, One-Handed, or Two-Handed can be altered by the size difference between the creature and the weapon.

That means the label in the weapons table does not solely control the only categories that the weapon may satisfy. If I understand your interpretation correctly you would argue that since a Greatsword is a "two-handed weapon", it can never be used as an off-hand weapon, not even by a Huge creature, because the weapon table calls it a Two-Handed weapon.

Quote:
Earlier I have used the parallel of the One Handed weapon being used with two hands. This has been able to be done since the Core Rulebook was published. The weapon, however, is still a One Handed weapon, even though it is getting the bonuses and effects of a Two Handed weapon when being wielded in that way. The same is happening here in reverse.

A one-handed weapon being used with two hands is a quality of the weapon being designated as one-handed. That is completely independent of what weapon you can wield in your off hand. As stated, the qualifications for wielding something in your off hand is only that you can legally wield it. Jotungrop allows that. TWF allows you to attack with any weapon in your off hand that you can "wield." That fact that the rules allow you to get extra damage when wielding a one-handed weapon with two hands is wholly independent of how weapons are classified, it only says what happens given a classification.

This all having been said, I would not be surprised of PFS tried to impose your interpretation. Any time a martial build seems effective, powers are quick to act. When casters trivialize the game, nothing can be done.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The ruleset as it is rarely tells a reader that they are expressly forbidden to do something. Typically, Pathfinder tells you what you can do, not what you can't.

We disagree on a fine point about how a character wields a weapon, and we have had this discussion before. The Inappropriately Sized Weapons does not apply to this situation, the weapon needs to be the same size category as the wielder specifically for the Titan Mauler. A Great Sword is still considered a Two Handed weapon even when wielding it otherwise. The change that the rules cite is the same scaling consideration as the One Handed Weapon being wielded with both/two hands.

I am not going blow by blow with this. We disagree on some semantics about this topic, though others have pointed out the overall disadvantage of doing TWF in this manner. Another problem is that while there is a lesser penalty for wielding a light weapon in the off hand, the inverse would have a Two Handed Weapon impose the same amount as an additional penalty on top of the already imposed penalties the Titan Mauler's ability has.

This is not specified specifically because the game was never designed to have a character wield Two Handed weapons in this manner and TWF with them as well.


Hillis in your opinion could you be holding a greatsword in each hand with Jotungrip?


Say you had a cold iron and an adamantine great sword to vary depending on target.

Grand Lodge

Once again Hillis, that's purely your opinion on the interpretation of the RAW. It's ambiguous.


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First off, thank you for continuing the discussion.

Hillis Mallory III wrote:
The ruleset as it is rarely tells a reader that they are expressly forbidden to do something. Typically, Pathfinder tells you what you can do, not what you can't.

Perhaps, but there is a splat book sized hole in the "rarely" qualification. In this case, the rules are unambiguous about what you can do and the requirement to do so:

Quote:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

Jotungrip allows you to wield a weapon that would be two-handed for your Size, in one hand. There's no equivocation in the requirement for TWF or that the Titan Mauler is wielding a weapon in their off hand.

In fact, you'll note that Jotungrip says "a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand..." If there were some intended restriction on using it to TWF, then the author could have easily added the "primary" hand. And certainly TWF was around when the archetype was devised.

Quote:
We disagree on a fine point about how a character wields a weapon, and we have had this discussion before.

I'm not sure that is what the disagreement is about. There is no definition in the rules or the game by which you can assert the weapon is not being wielded. Jotungrip literally uses the word "wield" to describe what is being done with the weapon.

If I understand you correctly, you're trying to assert that there is this concept of a "Two-handed" weapon that is immutable and thus because the weapon designation is a two-handed weapon, despite that it's being used in one hand, this violates a requirement for TWF. But you haven't provided any rule that says this. You haven't cleared the hurdle that if I wield a weapon in my off-hand, I can use it for TWF. Nothing you've presented contradicts that. While the rules are often permissive, the authors clearly know how to identify requirements.

Quote:
The Inappropriately Sized Weapons does not apply to this situation.

I reference ISW rules as a way to directly counter what I believe is the crux of your argument: that a weapon labeled as a two-handed weapon is a fixed label.

Let me ask you directly, can a Huge creature wield a medium Greatsword as a light off-hand weapon for TWF?

Quote:
A Great Sword is still considered a Two Handed weapon even when wielding it otherwise

Per the ISW rules, it's only a two-handed weapon when wielded by the creature of its Size. If wielded by a creature that is Large, it is, per the rules, a one-handed weapon and may be used as such.

Quote:
The change that the rules cite is the same scaling consideration as the One Handed Weapon being wielded with both/two hands.

Not quite. The scaling rules say that a one-handed weapon which is the same size as the wielder MUST be wielded with two-hands. This is categorically different than wielding a one-handed weapon one size smaller with two hands. The first is a requirement, the second is an option.

In other words, the ISW rules are telling us that the designation of Light, OH, and TH, are simply a function of comparative size between wielder and weapon. These rules have been in place since 3.5.

To cut to the chase, a two-handed weapon can't be used in the off hand if it is being used as a two-handed weapon/with both hands. To put it another way, a weapon that is the same size as the wielder must use the weapon with two-hands...unless a specific rule allows the weapon to be used in "one" hand. That means a person with Exotic Weapon Proficiency with a bastard sword, can use it in the off hand to TWF.

Quote:
Another problem is that while there is a lesser penalty for wielding a light weapon in the off hand, the inverse would have a Two Handed Weapon impose the same amount as an additional penalty on top of the already imposed penalties the Titan Mauler's ability has.

I disagree. Jotungrip allows you to wield the weapon in one. So the one-handed penalty's apply. This is reinforced by the clause "and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like." The whole point of the ability is you get to wield a two-handed weapon as if it were a one-handed weapon to you. Now, I agree that whenever the rules use "like" or "as if" there is ambiguity. But that ambiguity only applies to modifiers, it has no bearing on whether you can use TWF because TWF has no requirement on what the off hand weapon must be. If you want to debate about what penalties apply, then we get into the morass of "and the like." I'd rather avoid that.

Quote:
This is not specified specifically because the game was never designed to have a character wield Two Handed weapons in this manner and TWF with them as well.

I can't agree with that. Clearly the ISW rules contemplate a Large creature wielding a medium sized Greatsword in one-hand. That means if you're a medium creature and get hit by an Enlarge spell, you can now wield your Greatsword in one hand. If you get hit by a Reduce, you can't wield your Greatsword at all, not even with an ISW penalty.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Simply put, there is a difference between what the weapon was made for and how the character uses it. A Huge creature wielding a medium Great Sword was not made for that Huge creature, the weapon is like a Dagger to him. He takes a penalty to wield it because it isn't made for a Huge creature.

TWF is not looking at how your wielding the weapon, it is looking at what the weapon is, otherwise one would not get the lesser penalty for wielding Light weapons.

Grand Lodge

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Or alternatively, TWF only cares if the weapon is light or not. That's an equally valid way to look at it.

On second thought, there's absolutely no validity to the claim that simply because light weapons lessen the penalty that it's impossible to TWF with a 2-handed weapon if you can wield it in one hand.

Two-Weapon Fighting wrote:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

All the rules care about is if you are wielding the weapon and if the offhand weapon is light. You have absolutely 0 rules to back up your interpretation. I get that you don't like the idea of someone TWFing with 2-handed weapons, but they totally can by the rules if they can wield two 2-handed weapons.


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Hillis Mallory III wrote:
TWF is not looking at how your wielding the weapon, it is looking at what the weapon is, otherwise one would not get the lesser penalty for wielding Light weapons.

I don't believe that is an accurate statement. TWF is looking to see if you "wield" a weapon in the off hand. So the TWF rules absolutely do care how you wield your weapon or more accurately put: Can you wield said weapon in the off hand? If the answer is "yes" then you can TWF. There's nothing ambiguous about this aspect of TWF.

To your point, TWF does lesson the penalty if the off hand weapon satisfies stated requirements. So the "modifiers" do depend on the classification of the weapon. That is the part that might be ambiguous...except Jotungrip doesn't allow you to treat the weapon as a Light weapon, so the modifier question is moot.

It would seem that at least some part of your argument is couched in the idea that since we need to know the weapon designation to apply the modifiers, then if we can argue that weapon is still a THW, it can't be used for TWF because only weapons designated as OH or Light can be used for TW. I come to this because you've oft repeated that it is still a THW, even though it's used in the off hand.

Quote:
A Huge creature wielding a medium Great Sword was not made for that Huge creature, the weapon is like a Dagger to him. He takes a penalty to wield it because it isn't made for a Huge creature.

That is correct. The penalty is -2 for each incorrect size, so in this case it would be a combined -4.

I would still appreciate your response to the above question: Can a Huge creature use a medium Greatsword as a light weapon in the off hand for TWF?


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Looking back at your posts before I entered the discussion, I think I see the root problem.

Let's look at some of your statements earlier in the thread.

Hillis Mallory III wrote:

Though the weapon is used differently by the wielder, it does not change what that weapon is.

***Though one can wield the weapon One Handed (or treats it like a one handed weapon), it does not lose the Two Handed quality.

***A Light weapon is always a light weapon, and can not be used Two Handed like a One Handed weapon can be.

You're subscribing to the concept that there is a "two-handed quality". Let's look at what the rules tells us about weapon Size.

PRD wrote:

Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed

***If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

When I put these two together, it tells us that Light, OH and TH weapons can have their designation changed by changing the comparative size of creature and weapon. I've stated this before, but I think this is really the source of the disconnect. You're looking at Two-Handed as this unremovable label and the rules are telling us it's only Two-Handed because it's weapon whose size matches the wielder.

Coming back to this:

Quote:
A Light weapon is always a light weapon, and can not be used Two Handed like a One Handed weapon can be.

Perhaps you can now agree that a Light weapon for a medium sized creature can be used two handed by a Small and must be used two handed by a Tiny creature, of course ISW penalties apply. And if used Two-Handed, then any abilities or feats that trigger of a two-handed weapon, would apply.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

N.N.

Those are two different issues, and one does not relate to the other. Why ask a question you already know the answer to?

Your missing the main point here. The ability allows the character to wield a weapon in a different way.

That's all. Nothing else.

All the static damage and such changes to being One Handed based, as long as the character is wielding in such a manner. The disagreement here is when it is extended to change the weapon itself, which this ability simply does not do. A Meduim Creature has a Two Handed Weapon that is made for his size. It is a medium sized object (Same size as the intended wielder).

"except Jotungrip doesn't allow you to treat the weapon as a Light weapon, so the modifier question is moot. "

This is where we part ways. Treating the weapon as a One Handed weapon, being able to wield it with one hand and getting One Handed effects, does not actually change the weapon itself, it gives the character the ability to use the weapon in a different way. Using it in the context you put forth, there is no such thing as a Light Weapon, it is either One Handed or Two Handed, dependent on how the character sees it. Hence, the example.

Edit add in.

the Inappropriately Sized Weapons section has nothing to do with this issue. It is not a sliding scale. The Weapons still are made to be what they are, no matter how other differently sized creatures use them, or are unable to use them. Smaller and Larger weapons designations are adjusted for the character whom the weapon is not made for, but it is still the same for the character it was made for originally. This is the source for your confusion.


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Hillis Mallory III wrote:
The disagreement here is when it is extended to change the weapon itself, which this ability simply does not do.

Obviously nothing changes what the weapon itself is - a medium two-handed weapon has a certain amount of hit points, a medium one-handed weapon has a different amount of hit points.

It sounds like the only thing that's changed is how you use the weapon - treating it as one-handed when determining number of hands required, the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, two-weapon fighting penalties, and the like.


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Hillis Mallory III wrote:

N.N.

Those are two different issues, and one does not relate to the other.

Based on your belief that there is a "two-handed quality," I can see why you might think that. Normally, I would agree that ISW has nothing to do with TWF, but it is your contention that a weapon has a "two-handed quality" that makes the rules for ISW 100% relevant to the discussion.

Quote:
Why ask a question you already know the answer to?

I don't know your answer to the question because you seem to be unwilling to answer it. TWF says you only have to wield a weapon in the off hand, yet you're telling us all that despite a Titan Mauler being able to satisfy that black and white requirement, he or she can't TWF with it...all without referencing any rule that says this. Thus, I am seeking your specific response to that question.

Quote:
Your missing the main point here. The ability allows the character to wield a weapon in a different way. That's all. Nothing else.

That's 100% correct. And it is precisely that "wielding" which satisfies the requirements for TWF. The discussion should end right there. But, you're stating this:

Quote:
A Light weapon is always a light weapon, and can not be used Two Handed like a One Handed weapon can be.

Which is demonstrably incorrect and then you're using that as basis for arguing why you can't TWF with a weapon that is TH for a creature of that Size, regardless of any feat or ability that explicitly satisfies the TWF requirements.

Quote:
The disagreement here is when it is extended to change the weapon itself, which this ability simply does not do.

What you're saying here doesn't make any sense. There is no changing the weapon. A greatsword is a greatsword is a greatsword. Jotungrip does not change the weapon and TWF doesn't need the weapon to be changed. TWF requires one, and only one thing, that you wield a weapon in your off hand. You still haven't provided any contrary argument to this. Instead, you're telling us that there is some cosmic constant quality of Two-Handedness that prevents a weapon from being used for TWF...even though the weapon can be used in the off hand.

Quote:
A Meduim Creature has a Two Handed Weapon that is made for his size. It is a medium sized object (Same size as the intended wielder).

Here again is what I believe is the source of the disconnect. A Greatsword isn't a "Two-handed weapon," it's simply a weapon. Because of the Size of the object matches the wielder, it must be wielded two handed. However, that can change. The weapon is what it is. It is the comparative Size of each weapon that determines how much effort must be used to wield it.

This comes directly from the rules:

PRD wrote:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat.

That's it. Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed are about the "effort" to wield in combat. If an ability or feat or spell changes the effort, then it changes the designation. This is exactly what Jotungrip does, it changes the effort needed to wield the weapon, albeit with a penalty, but it changes it none the less.

Quote:
Treating the weapon as a One Handed weapon, being able to wield it with one hand and getting One Handed effects, does not actually change the weapon itself, it gives the character the ability to use the weapon in a different way.

Again, that's 100% correct and once again, that is all that is required for TWF, that I can "wield" the weapon in the off hand. Can you point to any rule that says a Titan Mauler can wield a greatsword in one hand, but not his/her off hand?

Quote:
Using it in the context you put forth, there is no such thing as a Light Weapon, it is either One Handed or Two Handed, dependent on how the character sees it. Hence, the example.

Uh...no. The context I put forth says that a weapon's designation is a function of the effort needed to wield it. Changing the comparative Size can change that, as well as other abilities or feats or spells which specifically allow the weapon to be used commensurate with that effort. We know this because they specifically say you can use the weapon as X type of weapon, treat it as such.

Quote:
the Inappropriately Sized Weapons section has nothing to do with this issue. It is not a sliding scale.

That's exactly what Light, OH, and TH is. Its a scale determined by the effort needed and the effort needed can be changed directly or indirectly. The rules state this explicitly.

Quote:
The Weapons still are made to be what they are, no matter how other differently sized creatures use them, or are unable to use them.

That's correct. A Medium greatsword is not going to work the same as a Huge dagger. But both are Two-handed weapons in the hands of a medium creature and both are Light weapons in the hands of a Huge creature.

Quote:
Smaller and Larger weapons designations are adjusted for the character whom the weapon is not made for, but it is still the same for the character it was made for originally. This is the source for your confusion.

I'm not confused about this at all. I'm pointing out that the effort needed to wield a weapon can be changed and in so doing, you change all the triggers based on that effort barring explicit rules to the contrary? Does either TWF or Jotungrip have any rules to the contrary? I don't see any and you haven't identified any.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

"...the effort needed to wield a weapon can be changed and in so doing, you change all the triggers based on that effort..."

Your confusing wielding with designation. As you wield the weapon, it's own designation does not change. You wield is as a One Handed Weapon, getting 1.0 str bonus and one handed effects for various feats like Power Attack. You are doing the same with a Light weapon, wielding it One Handed.

When you wield a Light weapon while TWF, you get a further reduction of the normal penalties for TWF. Nothing is mentioned for Two Handed Weapons, and there is no Off Hand use for it in the Weapon Designations as there is for the other two.

Now, a part of that is due to the character being assumed to have the normal human physicality, notably Two arms. It is assumed that both are being used to wield the Two Handed Weapon.

I have said my peace on this. If anyone is playing a build that has a character wielding (2) Two Handed weapons, please expect table variation on this. Be prepared to use a back up weapon instead. I would further suggest not spending to much of the character resources on that second weapon.

Also watch your encumbrance. Two Handed weapons are taking up a lot of room in inventory and are heavy.

Grand Lodge

And always feel free to ask further up the chain for a ruling that actually follows the rules after you finish that game where your character was invalidated. Especially when the person shutting your build down doesn't have any rules text to prove their position.

Grand Lodge

That devolved into a " I'm right, you're wrong " and vice-versa. Not a good look.


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Your last post seems to simply repeat what you said earlier in the thread, so it sounds like we are coming back to the point at which we started. Let me thank you now. Until this discussion, I had not paid any attention to weapon designation, but this thread has opened my eyes to how it works.

Hillis Mallory III wrote:

"...the effort needed to wield a weapon can be changed and in so doing, you change all the triggers based on that effort..."

Your confusing wielding with designation. As you wield the weapon, it's own designation does not change.

And yet, this is exactly what the rules say happens:

PRD wrote:
This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat.*** If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

In the face of the rules as written, claiming what you're claiming is disingenuous. The rules bold face tell us that the weapon designation is not fixed, its's dependent upon the effort needed to "wield" the weapon. The rules than tell us if the designation is changed, it affects one's ability to use the weapon. In other words, the designation can be changed. Jotungrip explicitly tells us that you can wield a two-handed weapon of your Size with one hand. Jotungrip reinforces the notion that you're using it as a one-handed weapon because your STR modifier is affected, as is other things that depend on how many hands you're using.

Jotungrip does not let you use a THW as a THW, it makes you use it as a OHW. It's nonsensical to claim it is still a THW when nothing about it follows THW rules. Yes, the greatsword will still do a base 2d6 damage, but that follows one of your own assertions: how you wield the weapon does not change what the weapon is. That greatsword will still do 2d6 even if its used as Light weapon by a Huge creature.

Quote:
You wield is as a One Handed Weapon, getting 1.0 str bonus and one handed effects for various feats like Power Attack. You are doing the same with a Light weapon, wielding it One Handed.

Sure. And if a one-handed weapon is wielded in the off hand, you get 1/2 the STR bonus. This would apply to the Titan Mauler as well.

Quote:
Nothing is mentioned for Two Handed Weapons, and there is no Off Hand use for it in the Weapon Designations as there is for the other two.

Here is the kernal of your argument, that no matter what abilities or circumstances applies, the weapon is always a two-handed weapon ....but only for the purposes of being eligible for TWF because you've already conceded that it's not a THW for damage and "the like." Not a compelling argument.

PRD wrote:
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand.

Thus by definition, a Titan Mauler can use a weapon that would normally be designated as a two-handed weapon for a character of his/her Size, in one hand and thus wield it in the off hand.

Quote:
If anyone is playing a build that has a character wielding (2) Two Handed weapons, please expect table variation on this. Be prepared to use a back up weapon instead. I would further suggest not spending to much of the character resources on that second weapon.

I would ask the PFS staff to step in and make ruling on this at their earliest convenience.

Again, thanks for the discussion.


N N 959 wrote:
I would ask the PFS staff to step in and make ruling on this at their earliest convenience.

The chances of that happening in this thread are only infinitesimally above 0%.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Just to clarify something...

I reference the Light weapon in the off hand to parallel the use of the Two Handed weapon in that same way. A character only ever wields a weapon with One Hand or Two Handed. One never actually "lightly" wields a weapon. (Descriptive and hammy Role Playing aside) TWF is not adding damage to each attack, or doing some other effect related to how the weapon is wielded. The weapon's actual designation is what is looked to determine if the player can wield the weapon.

Otherwise, no one would ever get the offsetting penalty reduction for wielding Light Weapons in the off hand.

Thank you for listening and at least explaining your objections. I understand the coolness factor of a barbarian wielding two huge weapons at the same time like in Diablo II.


thaX wrote:
Thank you for listening and at least explaining your objections. I understand the coolness factor of a barbarian wielding two huge weapons at the same time like in Diablo II.

I actually think it's kind of cheesy. Kind of like dual wielding shields (Yes, I know there is a Youtube video of a martial arts style that uses two shield).

I wouldn't object to Paizo changing Jotungrip so it specifically says you can only wield one two-handed weapon. You could still use it in the off hand and TWF with it in the off hand, but it would explicitly prohibit dual wielding two-handers.

When I entered the discussion I wasn't actually thinking about it as dual wielding greatswords, but just a question as to whether you could wield it in the off hand.


I would use the example of Bastard sword, you use a feat to use it one-handed and there is nothing that have ever prevented the dual bastard sword useage either.

As for the dual whield option is that the off-hand is not a light weapon thus it gives you -4 on your attacks rather than -2... unless however you use effortless lace though its only work on "one-handed" weapons.

The game is "hard-coded" around the concept that the player is Medium, and only throws exceptions rather than actual rules around being a smaller or larger size. There is rulings that a Gnome can use a medium longsword in two-hands, in that way you could technically take a large longsword put on effortless lace on it as its a "one handed slashing weapon" and then its "light" per status. (Tho the ruling is most likely going under that its not "light" as its the "wrong" size).

And as far as i am aware there is nowhere in the rules that outright prohibits the dual whielding of two-handers, its just that two-handers require two hands to use... NORMALLY, unless overridden by something that reduce the amount of hands needed or more hands are added in, like some 4 armed monsters and other multi-armed beings does more or less all the time.


N N 959 wrote:
thaX wrote:
Thank you for listening and at least explaining your objections. I understand the coolness factor of a barbarian wielding two huge weapons at the same time like in Diablo II.
I actually think it's kind of cheesy. Kind of like dual wielding shields (Yes, I know there is a Youtube video of a martial arts style that uses two shield).

And then there are those who think they should be able to use six weapons and two shields at the same time.


by raw you can use two 2h weapons at the same time so long as you can use them as 1h weapons/light weapons or have more arms to use them, twf only calls out light weapons and non light weapons nothing else

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

To me, if I, as a GM, to allow the off hand use of a Two Handed weapon, It would be with a -2 penalty with TWF. This would be the normal scale of what is set with the Light/One Handed.

With the feat, it would be (At first level) (1)Light Weapon -2/-2 (2) One Handed Weapon -4/-4 and (3) Two Handed Weapon -6/-6.

That would be one top of whatever penalties the character has for wielding the Two Handed Weapon with one hand.

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