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Then... even IF we assume Conscription is evil (which I personally am nowhere near), merely saying it may be necessary is not performing an evil act. If the Paladin is actually the one conscripting people, then THAT would be the paladin committing an evil act.That's a slippery slope I'm not willing to go down.
"I didn't torture and kill the prisoners myself. I just told the others it was necessary."
Of course, I don't actually think conscription is necessarily evil, so I don't think that comparison holds.
I almost feel it'd be better if the Paladin was doing it himself. That makes sure it's done as humane as possible.
I'd also probably have any paladin I had back this plan personally ensure the conscripts are well treated and considered to not be canon fodder.
And, to be quite honest, I'd probably attempt to come up with a heroic plan that only requires the appearance of numbers, as opposed to actual numbers, so that all the conscripts have to do is show up to the battle and act intimidating, while a small group of heroes perform most of the heavy lifting.
Because that's how we do it in Pathfinder.
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Really depends on how narrow you are defining conscription.
Raiding a village killing a bunch of folks and forcing survivors to be expendable foot soldiers. Yeah that's pretty evil.
Living a society that shares a value of mutual defense with an expectation of duty in military service. That is very different.
It gets evil really quickly when you force that guy to go to war to steal the neighbors sheep.
I think it hits evil adjacent when you try to stop someone from taking over thats really no different than the guy thats running the place now. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Why am I dying so someone else can keep his castle and tax my chickens again?
Society DOES have that expectation. But thats more of a law thing.
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General: Now each battalion has a specific code-name and mission. Battalion 5, raise your hands!
[All of the African-Americans raise their hands.]
General: You will be the all important first defense wave, which we will call "Operation Human Shield."
Chef: Hey, wait a minute!
General: Now keep in mind, Operation Human Shield will suffer heavy losses. But don't lose your spirit, men! Stay until the bitter end. Battalion 14?
[The rest of the group, all Caucasian, raise their hands.]
General: Right, you are "Operation Get Behind The Darkies." You will follow Battalion 5 here, and try not to get killed for God's sake! Are there any questions, men?
[Chef raises his hand.]
General: Yes, soldier?
Chef: Haven't you heard of the Emancipation Proclamation?
General: I don't listen to hip-hop.
Really depends on how narrow you are defining conscription.
Raiding a village killing a bunch of folks and forcing survivors to be expendable foot soldiers. Yeah that's pretty evil.
Living a society that shares a value of mutual defense with an expectation of duty in military service. That is very different.
It gets evil really quickly when you force that guy to go to war to steal the neighbors sheep.
I think it hits evil adjacent when you try to stop someone from taking over thats really no different than the guy thats running the place now. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Why am I dying so someone else can keep his castle and tax my chickens again?
Society DOES have that expectation. But thats more of a law thing.
That moves the goal post to using your army to steal from other citizens. A draft (soft benign conscription) isn't the misdeed its the robbing the neighbors.
During World War II citizens were being conscripted in England I believe. There were conscientious objectors, and if they could prove they were pacifists wouldn't be required to fight.
It seems mostly lawful. The premise of Lawful Good is that freedom is secondary to Good. Some things you can't trust basic instinct for, so you have to have restrictions. Conscripting is more appealing to the sense of duty. For most lawful societies, it shouldn't have to a dispute for it to happen. To become a citizen these are terms you accept and agree to. If they are forced when they did not make any such agreements then it starts to go into the deep end of the alignment pool. Lawful Evil is conscripting people and subjugating them to your will for your own malicious purposes.
Of course each scenario is different. It's a case by case basis. I think of Denmark where there is mandatory service. You agree to be a citizen and receive governments benefits and support, and in exchange you pay taxes and will serve if you are chosen. No matter what your basic human rights are respected, and you are not intentionally mistreated. (I see intentionally because in some cases food shortages and supply lead to accidental malnutrition. But, alignment is intent.)
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General: Now each battalion has a specific code-name and mission. Battalion 5, raise your hands!
[All of the African-Americans raise their hands.]
General: You will be the all important first defense wave, which we will call "Operation Human Shield."
Chef: Hey, wait a minute!
General: Now keep in mind, Operation Human Shield will suffer heavy losses. But don't lose your spirit, men! Stay until the bitter end. Battalion 14?
[The rest of the group, all Caucasian, raise their hands.]
General: Right, you are "Operation Get Behind The Darkies." You will follow Battalion 5 here, and try not to get killed for God's sake! Are there any questions, men?
[Chef raises his hand.]
General: Yes, soldier?
Chef: Haven't you heard of the Emancipation Proclamation?
General: I don't listen to hip-hop.
Oh look, some means of waging war can be evil even without conscription. Or even if the war in general is in a good cause.
I have a similarly relevant scenario!
The man smiled kindly at the hungry folk, as he passed out bread. "Here - don't worry, you won't go hungry again; I'm here. Not only will I feed you, but I promise: no matter how dire your circumstances, you will all have gainful employment, and decent accommodations."The people enjoyed the fresh baked loaves, delicious wine, and the clean clothes. It had been a terrible year, considering their lands had been invaded. They had chosen not to fight, and many had been killed, but at least they had been spared. Hungry. Destitute. Homes ruined. Lives broken. But spared.
And at last, a savior had come. He promised that their lands would be made fertile, that he would feed them, clothe them, and given them shelter. He had vast wealth, you see, and planned on using it to make their homeland his, as well.
And he kept his promise. As they all drifted off to death from the poison he'd slipped in their food, he thought to himself, "I am sorry these people suffered so greatly. At least now they never will again."
And then he got all of his onyx ready to raise a glorious (and well-dressed) army of undead, to rebuild the destroyed lands.
Man, charity, and caring about the suffering of others, sucks, doesn't it? It's pretty super-evil!
But at least there are now no more widows or orphans, and none of them were told they had to fight by their government! Right?
During World War II citizens were being conscripted in England I believe. There were conscientious objectors, and if they could prove they were pacifists wouldn't be required to fight.
Right, but WW2 was kind of unusual in that you had one side descending into super villian levels of evil for the sake of evil that had to be stopped. It would be much more ambiguous for world war 1 when it was.. wait. what the hell are we fighting for?
Right, but WW2 was kind of unusual in that you had one side descending into super villian levels of evil for the sake of evil that had to be stopped.
... much like the current situation, yeah?
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Right, but WW2 was kind of unusual in that you had one side descending into super villian levels of evil for the sake of evil that had to be stopped.... much like the current situation, yeah?
I believe that for the purposes of this thread the situation was that Evilsvania is invading.
Right, but WW2 was kind of unusual in that you had one side descending into super villian levels of evil for the sake of evil that had to be stopped.
... much like the current situation, yeah?
I believe that for the purposes of this thread the situation was that Evilsvania is invading.
Yes? I am uncertain how what I said conflicts with that, if it does.
Evilsvania is invading, after descending into super villain levels of evil for the sake of evil. This has to be stopped.
(That's what I was picking up from what you said, and I was just kind of confirming it with you. If I am in error, please clarify. Thanks!)
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All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. ;)
Exactly.
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All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. ;)
Or Neutral Elves
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Agreed, neutral elves are evil. They should be taxed: the vilest punishment ever invented.
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All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. ;)
Unless we take a page out of KWsM's book, in which the case becomes:
They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
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Trotting out the (un)dead horse so it may be thorough beaten again: All of these discussions of alignment and ethics tend to conflate real life good and evil with the in-game tags of "Good" and "Evil". Real world ethics/morality doesn't need to match up with in game ethics/morality. In a world where the powers of Good endorsing (or at least not objecting to) feudalism (with serfdom having been defined as a form of slavery IRL by the United Nations 1956 Supplementary Convention on the Abolition of Slavery), we obviously see a different context of what Good and Evil are in the fantasy game world.
As alignment exists as a descriptive term and to justify/operationalize Red vs. Blue interactions in PF, moral issues like conscription are mostly setting dependent questions.
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So when are we going to get to the part where the Paladin falls?
