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Hellknights are contracted by Thrune and are a de facto law enforcement arm of Cheliax. Many of the orders actively participate in the tyrannical enforcement of Cheliax's diabolicaly-inspired laws...and you are one of them.
Congrats and welcome to the jack-booted merc thugs. You're under contract, now.
Some Hellknights act as the military arm of House Thrune, most notably those of the Order of the Rack. From what I have gathered reading about Hellknights on www.pathfinderwiki.com, a substantial fraction (maybe majority) of Hellknights DON'T see eye-to-eye with Thrune and Devil-worshippers.
The armor they wear is based on diabolic designs and meant to cause fear. Not trust, not hope. Fear.
Only Hell claims they are most efficient and powerful military model in the universe. I'm pretty sure Gorum would laugh at the claim. Lying is what Hell does, especially to puff up its pride.
Yeah, speaking of Gorum, what's up with him not being categorized as Evil? He even seems suspiciously like a divinely ascended Graveknight . . .
Being a Powerful LG knight who bows and advertises 'Hell is better' is definitely NOT giving Heaven any face whatsoever. Might as well bring back those paladins who worshiped Asmodeus in full.
Maybe not yet, but eventually somebody is going to figure out how to hack the Paladin divine connection . . . Arguably, Antipaladins are actually the first (already extant) example, and the recently introduced Insinuator archetype and the upcoming Tyrant archetype are examples in which non-Abyssal Evil forces finally also figured it out.
By being a Hellknight, you are being lumped in with those that are active tools of tyranny. You are spreading the creed by where you stand, and making excuses for it.
I'm sure the Hellknights do love Paladins. Strange how LE doesn't make soldiers as good as paladins are, you know?
What the Hellknights currently lack in quality, they make up for in oorganizational skill. Eventually they will figure out how to get the quality part down, but for now, they will have to be satisfied with duping Paladins into working for them (it's so easy when you can point to a very real Chaotic Evil threat . . . And most Paladin's Sense Motive scores are rather lacking), and then assigning the Paladins missions that delay their fall long enough to (A) get good use out of them and (B) clandestinely study their divine connection to figure out how to subvert it or even reproduce it in full.
I think there is something YOU don't understand. The organization SAYS it is LN, but it slants LE, and actively endorses Asmodeus, who is someone no paladin would willingly call a force worth emulating. Yet there he is, THE largest single divine sponsor of the Hellknights.
See above, and he isn't their only divine sponsor, and not all Hellknights even have a divine sponsor.
And now you're one of them. Cry all you want to about Iomadae and Erastil being Lawful, they do NOT publicly cite the Hellknights as models worth following...it's all on the other side, the Hellknights claiming them as Lawful exemplars worth the following. The Hellknights pleasantly grab any credos from them that fit with their code, and absolutely ignore the rest...a potpourri of stolen idioms cited out of context to fit their purposes.
Erastil doesn't have anything to do with the Order of the Godclaw, but Iomedae does, not willingly, but given the Worldwound threat, she has been under a lot of pressure, and has even had to accept scum such as form much of the Low Templar forces in Mendev, and may someday have to start accepting Really Filthy Templar, and even seems to be starting to snap under the pressure. I say again, we are due for a Fall of the Righteous AP sometime in the future . . . A greatly slowed fall of Paladin Hellknights is just the warmup. In the future, Hell may get to profit from the living dissection of fallen Iomedae . . . And after that, all Hell will break loose.
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There's a big difference between a LG person working with the HEllknights, and a PALADIN doing so.
LG people are not bound by the paladin's code, and not held to the same standard of behavior. The whole thing about willfully misleading paladins is an insult to the intelligence of any of them, and demeaning to the gods that empower them and the paladin's code.
The things the Hellknights do, their image and methodology, are at distinct odds with pretty much all that paladins are supposed to stand for.
The idea that a paladin would tolerate even being lumped in with people with that kind of reputation, knowing who they are trying to emulate, and the churches and forces that back them, simply boggles the mind.
i.e. it doesn't matter that Asmodeus is 'one' of their backers. The fact is, he's one of their 'patrons' and idols. What IS a paladin doing with an organization that lauds him and his military ideals?!?
And the whole thing with antipaladins...eh, paladins HEAL. Antipaladins do not. In terms of staying power and being a great ally, paladins put antipaladins of all stripes to shame.
And isn't there a paladin archetype that favors law and can smite chaos? I seem to remember one. If so, why in Heaven's name would you need them to demean themselves by being Hellknights, when they have their own order to do the job?
==Aelryinth
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well until paizo comes out with something that says paladins can't be hellknights, i am just going to have to disagree with you
There's a big difference between a LG person working with the HEllknights, and a PALADIN doing so.
LG people are not bound by the paladin's code, and not held to the same standard of behavior. The whole thing about willfully misleading paladins is an insult to the intelligence of any of them, and demeaning to the gods that empower them and the paladin's code.
Uh . . . In case you didn't notice, a lot of them dump Intelligence as well as Wisdom. Seems to be a common part of Paladin training, especially in Cheliax, although examples can be found elsewhere (although this particular example died before ever getting a chance to join the Hellknights).
The things the Hellknights do, their image and methodology, are at distinct odds with pretty much all that paladins are supposed to stand for.
The idea that a paladin would tolerate even being lumped in with people with that kind of reputation, knowing who they are trying to emulate, and the churches and forces that back them, simply boggles the mind.i.e. it doesn't matter that Asmodeus is 'one' of their backers. The fact is, he's one of their 'patrons' and idols. What IS a paladin doing with an organization that lauds him and his military ideals?!?
All the Hellknights have to do is convince the Paladins (which as noted above, are often not all that smart or wise) that if they don't work with them to maintain order in Cheliax, the Demonic State in Isger and Cheliax will overthrow them all, and not stop with just getting rid of Thrune.
And the whole thing with antipaladins...eh, paladins HEAL. Antipaladins do not. In terms of staying power and being a great ally, paladins put antipaladins of all stripes to shame.
A temporary technical defect, which will eventually be remedied. (In 1st Edition, Antipaladins could heal themselves, just not others; this seems to have gotten rendered inoperative in one of the patches to the universe since then unless the Antipaladin is Undead or otherwise has Negative Energy Affinity, but eventually somebody is going to figure out a more elegant solution.)
And isn't there a paladin archetype that favors law and can smite chaos? I seem to remember one. If so, why in Heaven's name would you need them to demean themselves by being Hellknights, when they have their own order to do the job?
Oath Against Chaos(*). Combine that with the common dumping of Intelligence and Wisdom and the reasonably common worship of Abadar (Lawful Neutral, for order and profit above all else), and they are the perfect recruits to the Hellknights. In fact, the archetype text even explicitly mentions not only Hellknights, but the Hellknights of Cheliax, especially the Order of the Godclaw, and spells out that they are dedicated to the rule of law above all other things. It even modifies the Code of Conduct, although the Hellknights still need to be careful not to cause these Paladins to fall too quickly . . . For now.
(*)
Aye, but just because you can modify your Oath to fight Chaos does not obviate all the other parts of the Oath against serving, associating with and the like for all the LE components of your order.
And being of average int or wis can easily tell you are violating your Oaths by, you know, emulating the armies of HELL.
And you'd have to have a 3 Int to not realize there are plenty of ways to serve against Chaos that don't involve being a patsy of the King of Devils.
And that includes Adabaran paladins, too. Just because their god is LN doesn't mean they are exempt from the paladin code. And profit above all is NOT the goal of a paladin.
==Aelryinth
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wow you view the paladin code a lot stricter than the code actually is
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Actually, the code is VERY strict, based on its language. Just ask Ashiel, who has done a line by line comparison with the 3.5 version.
Its the 'fast and loose' interpretations of the code which would seem to allow all the nonsense. People just don't like a class that is really held to a higher standard, and are constantly looking for a way to subvert it, and get the goodies without jumping through the hoops.
==Aelryinth
that's the thing though the Hellknight organization on a whole is LN. that means the majority is going to be LN with a very tiny minority being LG or LE so there is absolutely no problem with a paladin being a Hellknight. so as long as the Paladin/Hellknight doesn't work with any of the evil members of their order there won't be a problem with the paladin's code
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I have this strange feeling that the next time I play my "LG" Paladin of Sune in the Out of Abyss 5e game I'm currently in, Aelryinth is going to break and enter through the window and disembowel me while shouting "10 000 ANGELIC HOSTS AND LG CELESTIALS DIDN'T DIE IN VAIN SO THAT YOU COULD VIOLATE THE CODE WITH YOUR LOOSE, FINGER WRIGGLING INTERPRETATIONS, YOU FILTHY SPAWN OF MODERATELY BENEVOLENT NEUTRALITY!!!"
I mean, the fact that an ocean separates us does little to ease the fear.
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I have this strange feeling that the next time I play my "LG" Paladin of Sune in the Out of Abyss 5e game I'm currently in, Aelryinth is going to break and enter through the window and disembowel me while shouting "10 000 ANGELIC HOSTS AND LG CELESTIALS DIDN'T DIE IN VAIN SO THAT YOU COULD VIOLATE THE CODE WITH YOUR LOOSE, FINGER WRIGGLING INTERPRETATIONS, YOU FILTHY SPAWN OF MODERATELY BENEVOLENT NEUTRALITY!!!"
I mean, the fact that an ocean separates us does little to ease the fear.
you owe me a soda(jk) because i just dropped it, i was laughing so hard
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I have a strange feeling that not a lot of people play Paladins in groups that very, very rigidly interpret Paladin codes.
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"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
If the Hellknights constitute legitimate authority in their region and are concerned with punishing those who harm or threaten innocents, the road is clear so far.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."
Gets hazier here. I'm sure the Thrunite torturing book-burners of the Order of the Rack have exactly zero Paladins in their ranks, and they're almost certainly rare as hen's teeth in the other orders- but they're there.
I'm equally sure the Order of the Godclaw occasionally doles out an Atonement spell or two with a lot of rationalizations about the need for law and order. The Order of the Nail probably bunches any Paladin members up in groups and throws them at Orcs. The Order of the Pyre has plenty of work worthy of Paladins.
Weird little groups like the Orders of the Torrent, Scar, Pike, by virtue of their fringe nature, are probably more likely to accommodate Paladins- but they're still Hellknight orders.
Paladins in general are rare, and Hellknight Paladins are rarer still, and Hellknight Paladins that manage to retain their status are probably the rarest of the lot, but they can absolutely exist.
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The military model of Hell is the most efficient and powerful in all the multiverse. Why would you not emulate it if you were a Lawful person who wanted to succeed?
This seems like one of those "informed ability" things that's canon because people say it's true, even though it doesn't seem to make much sense. It's efficient even though infernal law is designed to be abused, underlings conspire against each other and even their master if they show weakness, enforcement is based upon fear and deception (which tend to weaken regimes in the long run if they are the foundations they're based upon)
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I have this strange feeling that the next time I play my "LG" Paladin of Sune in the Out of Abyss 5e game I'm currently in, Aelryinth is going to break and enter through the window and disembowel me while shouting "10 000 ANGELIC HOSTS AND LG CELESTIALS DIDN'T DIE IN VAIN SO THAT YOU COULD VIOLATE THE CODE WITH YOUR LOOSE, FINGER WRIGGLING INTERPRETATIONS, YOU FILTHY SPAWN OF MODERATELY BENEVOLENT NEUTRALITY!!!"
I mean, the fact that an ocean separates us does little to ease the fear.
I laughed, too. :)
But then, I don't consider 5E paladins to be paladins, so there's that. You're safe doing whatever you want with that colorless divine warrior class.
=+Aelryinth
I think of Hellknights as a Grey Knights (from WH40k) spinoff. They uphold LAW, by any means necessary. If that means burning down a village and executing villagers to prevent an infestation of demons, so be it, if they have to burn hundreds of books to prevent corrupting knowledge from spreading, smoke'em. Hence, LN being the presiding alignment. LE are those who take it a bit too far, LG are the few who find Nicer solutions. The overall sentiment being, smash Chaos and promote Law, By Any Means Necessary.
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I just think of them as jack-booted thugs. As long as an order is given by a lawful authority, they go out and enforce it, and woe to anyone fighting against such authority! They don't bother to think about WHAT they are enforcing, or why...they just enforce it and leave the thinking to others.
LE are the ones who take delight in doing whatever it takes to enforce laws, and really, seriously don't care what kind of law it is.
LG are the ones who actually think about what they are doing and try to make the best solution possible given what the law is supposed to do.
Paladins having to accomodate uncaring and even despotic laws as part of being a Hellknight shouldn't be affiliated with them in the slightest. There's too many other ways to fight the good fight to put up with the uncaring nature of Hellknights.
==Aelryinth
Paladins having to accomodate uncaring and even despotic laws as part of being a Hellknight shouldn't be affiliated with them in the slightest. There's too many other ways to fight the good fight to put up with the uncaring nature of Hellknights.
Like, say, fighting off Orc raids from the Hold of Belkezen as part of an organized body of skilled warriors? Or ferreting out demon cultists with the resources and support of a dedicated organization?
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Yes, like the Knights of Lastwall and the Worldwound crusade, or the Church of Iomadae. All of which qualify as great synergy with the paladin code.
By your words, serving with an amoral mercenary band (an organized body of skilled warriors) or the Red Mantis (who are rivals to the demon cults) would be perfectly acceptable.
Not from where I stand.
The movement to corrupt LG paladins and portray them as Lawful Stupid, Stupid Good, borderline evil, and any organization they work with as only shiny on the outside and rotten within, is one of the most annoying things about Golarion and Paizo. They just can't seem to make a 'good' organization, it always has to have a rotten or at least neutral heart to it.
==Aelryinth
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Yes, like the Knights of Lastwall and the Worldwound crusade, or the Church of Iomadae. All of which qualify as great synergy with the paladin code.
And can they help people on the Chelish or Varisian borders with Belkezen? Can knights based out of Lastwall or Mendev count on an organizational supply chain if they're hunting an Old Cult near Magnimar?
By your. words, serving with an amoral mercenary band (an organized body of skilled warriors) or the Red Mantis (who are rivals to the demon cults) would be perfectly acceptable.
Not from where I stand.
The code as written for the class disagrees with you. You're welcome to read it, it's about three or four posts up.
A Paladin MAY associate with evil comrades to combat a greater evil, assuming they cease such association when they feel they are no longer doing the right thing.
And it on the Paladin's conscience to make that call
By the code as written, some of the Hellknight Orders are a damn sight preferable to other options... like the Red Mantis, or an "amoral mercenary band."
sure, an amoral order of institutionalized knights is 'better' then an amoral mercenary band.
Uh, huh. When they actually qualify as 'the greater evil' in many cases.
And yes, you can indeed associate with the Church of Iomadae in all of those locations. Merc work for them is just as valid as Hellknight merc work for Thrune, you know? Without, you know, doing the bidding of a devil worshipper who rules the country, i.e. the greater evil.
And the Red Mantis serve the appointed assassin of the Gods themselves. The Mantis God will work for Iomadae! Just as valid as those serving Hell, which, OH, the Hellknights allow into their ranks, right?
Blame your own non-discriminatory wording for the examples. By how you're posting, the paladins are free to associate with anyone at anytime by simply manufacturing a 'greater evil' out of thin air, when so much of what the Hellknights do has NOTHING to do with a Greater Evil.
THEY are the greater evil.
==Aelryinth
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Remember that the Hellknights do not serve House Thrune - entire orders have been known to disobey Thrune commands when they conflict with the Hellknights' own beliefs.
Queen Abrogail I invites the Order of the Scourge to serve as her personal guard and police force, with similar roles proposed for the other orders. Lictor Jaisade of the Scourge bluntly declines, explaining that the Hellknights will continue to serve the empire and spread their vision of law, but as their code alone deems fit. The queen nearly orders the imprisonment of Jaisade, but acquiesces, declaring her house’s debt to the knights fulfilled by this mercy.
Hardly "doing the bidding" of House Thrune. ^_^
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My favorite part about that is how they then built a citadel right next to Egorian, just to go, "And now we keep an eye on you to make sure that you don't make things worse. We're aaaaaallllways watching. >:)"
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Aaaand continuing to spread and enforce the laws of Cheliax 'as set by House thrune' doesn't constitute service to Thrune?
Never said they were all lapdogs...although some effectively are (enforcing the rewriting of Chelian history, etc), but the Hellknights are basically an extra enforcement arm of House Thrune simply by serving the laws of the Empire that Thrune is on the top of.
And Thrunes get away with exploiting those laws six ways to sunday, and the Hellknights do nothing about it...because then the powers in charge would outlaw them, and how are they going to fight themselves suddenly being illegal?
Plus, those orders responding best to Thrune also happen to be those that prosper the most. Strange how that works.
==Aelryinth
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Aaaand continuing to spread and enforce the laws of Cheliax 'as set by House thrune' doesn't constitute service to Thrune?
Never said they were all lapdogs...although some effectively are (enforcing the rewriting of Chelian history, etc), but the Hellknights are basically an extra enforcement arm of House Thrune simply by serving the laws of the Empire that Thrune is on the top of.
And Thrunes get away with exploiting those laws six ways to sunday, and the Hellknights do nothing about it...because then the powers in charge would outlaw them, and how are they going to fight themselves suddenly being illegal?
As earlier noted, the Hellknights don't necessarily enforce the law of the land, so much as their own vision of the law.
By the logic you're applying to them, an Order of the Chain Hellknight who pursued an escaped slave into Andoran would suddenly lose the ability to reclaim that slave (since slavery is illegal in Andoran). Somehow... I doubt that's how it works.
Plus, those orders responding best to Thrune also happen to be those that prosper the most. Strange how that works.
==Aelryinth
And yet, you'll notice, the Hellknight orders that aren't prospering in this way don't seem inclined to toe the line for their own benefit. They'd rather stay true to their code than enrich themselves. In a way, that's very... paladin-like of them. Strange how that works. ^_^
Again, the impression I get from all this is that Hellknight law overrides national law for the Hellknights.
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Blame your own non-discriminatory wording for the examples.
It's not mine.
It's right out of the Paladin Code of conduct from the SRD.
Once again, it's right there, directly. Please, read it. Because you seem to have ideas about it that it does not support.
This is not second edition. Paladins are now free to make hard choices. Sometimes they make the wrong choice.
Like, say, fighting off Orc raids from the Hold of Belkezen as part of an organized body of skilled warriors? Or ferreting out demon cultists with the resources and support of a dedicated organization?
--Quoted from Cole
Um, Cole, those are definitely NOT in the paladin's code of conduct. They are simply very, very bad examples. (which I already replied to above). I am not at all certain what you are replying to.
==Aelryinth
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Plus, those orders responding best to Thrune also happen to be those that prosper the most. Strange how that works.
==Aelryinth
And yet, you'll notice, the Hellknight orders that aren't prospering in this way don't seem inclined to toe the line for their own benefit. They'd rather stay true to their code than enrich themselves. In a way, that's very... paladin-like of them. Strange how that works. ^_^
Again, the impression I get from all this is that Hellknight law overrides national law for the Hellknights.
Yeah, Kalindlara is pretty on the nose, I'd say.
You have your more "Thrune-like" orders, like the Order of the Wrack (whom, it must be noted, are very much so opposed to the Order of the Scourge... just not in open conflict, yet), and then you have the Order of the Scourge... who are expressly (and vocally) watching for Thrune to make that "one mistake" that makes them less valuable at keeping everyone alive than dead.
It's worth remembering that the reason the Hellknight orders became the force they did is because of the Chelish civil war, in which the population of Cheliax was, from what I can tell, at least cut into a third, and more likely in many areas literally decimated (cut to a tenth) or destroyed. A civil war that was so terrible that even the infernal power of Thrune was preferable to the bloodshed and destruction happening everywhere. Anarchy so profound that only a the lawful neutral orders who'd expressly rejected Aroden's demon-corrupted worship* as part of their forge and founding were able to gather together, form a coherent plan, and execute it, bringing peace and literally saving an entire civilization from being devoured and murdered by itself.
*
Many Hellknights exist in a tenuous peace with Thrune. They don't serve the Order of the Scourge, but there is a tentative agreement about the whole thing (as noted in their unified council during the actual civil war itself) that Thrune only lasts until it's demonstrably worse than the alternative.
A notable example, is Order of the Nail.
Lawful Good is up to the person in how it's interpreted many times (and yes, this is an OLD discussion).
My thoughts...
Lawful Good doesn't necessarily mean Lawful Stupid, or I can't associate with anything that doesn't obey my set of laws and is good all the time.
It means the person themselves are obeying either a code or a set of laws and codes (not necessarily a nation, it could be an order).
In addition, they seek something greater than themselves.
From the PRD
Core Concepts: Duty, fairness, honor, property, responsibility, right, truth, virtue, worthinessA lawful good character believes in honor. A code or faith that she has unshakable belief in likely guides her. She would rather die than betray that faith, and the most extreme followers of this alignment are willing (sometimes even happy) to become martyrs.
A lawful good character at the extreme end of the lawful-chaotic spectrum can seem pitiless. She may become obsessive about delivering justice, thinking nothing of dedicating herself to chasing a wicked dragon across the world or pursuing a devil into Hell. She can come across as a taskmaster, bent upon her aims without swerving, and may see others who are less committed as weak. Though she may seem austere, even harsh, she is always consistent, working from her doctrine or faith. Hers is a world of order, and she obeys superiors and finds it almost impossible to believe there's any bad in them. She may be more easily duped by such imposters, but in the end she will see justice is done—by her own hand if necessary.
Sounds Like they could be the Hell Knights in many ways. On a Local scale it would probably be far easier to be a Paladin then if you were directly connected and attending the court of Thrune, but on a local or even a regional level you could easily be a Paladin from that description.
You'd probably be dedicated to keeping Law and Order and obsessively delivering justice to those criminals who disrupt order and break the law.
It seems being austere and harsh in accomplishing the matter is also an acceptable way to do it from the definition.
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It's worth remembering that the reason the Hellknight orders became the force they did is because of the Chelish civil war, in which the population of Cheliax was, from what I can tell, at least cut into a third, and more likely in many areas literally decimated (cut to a tenth) or destroyed. A civil war that was so terrible that even the infernal power of Thrune was preferable to the bloodshed and destruction happening everywhere. Anarchy so profound that only a the lawful neutral orders who'd expressly rejected Aroden's demon-corrupted worship* as part of their forge and founding were able to gather together, form a coherent plan, and execute it, bringing peace and literally saving an entire civilization from being devoured and murdered by itself.
*
Many Hellknights exist in a tenuous peace with Thrune. They don't serve the Order of the Scourge, but there is a tentative...
you will have to remember that the Hellknights started before the civil war due to the cult of the demon lord of heresy causing the death of the wife and son of the first leader of the hellknights,
source in council of thieves
Aye, corruption was infesting the dying Church of Aroden, and he basically decided to take the law into his own hands.
The fact that they took Hell as an ideal role model surely doesn't have anything to do with corruption on their end, at all.
==Aelryinth
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Aye, corruption was infesting the dying Church of Aroden, and he basically decided to take the law into his own hands.
The fact that they took Hell as an ideal role model surely doesn't have anything to do with corruption on their end, at all.
==Aelryinth
Hellfire doesn't corrupt, it purifies.*
*HellKnights Order of the Burning Flame
:P
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Um, Cole, those are definitely NOT in the paladin's code of conduct.
The only "vague wording" I have used is from the code, which lacks the black and white smackdown factor of prior versions.
If you regard the examples of "why a Paladin would choose a given Hellknight Order" as poorly chosen, then you need to be specific, rather than using vague wording to call out "vague wording."
After which, I suggest you look at a map of Avistan, because, once again, a knight from Lastwall has an entire hostile country between him and any innocent Varisians he wants to protect from the orcs of Belkezen.
The examples were chosen because they fit into the purview and geographic spheres of Hellknight Orders which a Paladin might join. No more, no less.
No one here is arguing that a Paladin should be an enthusiastic Thrunite- there are several major Orders which no Paladin, whatever their beliefs about the primacy of law, would go within a thousand miles of. Nor is anyone arguing that any Hellknight Order should have enough Paladins in its ranks to make them anything but valuable oddities.
But you appear to be fixated upon matters of aesthetics- and ideas about the rigidity of Paladin behavior which do not exist in this edition- leaving you grasping at straws in order to claim that no Paladin should ever do something that you personally find distasteful.
Even though they clearly can- and, in at least one canon example, have done so.
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Belonging to an order of knights which lionizes hell to the extent they name their own overarching order to them is hardly grasping at straws - it is blatantly telling people that 'Hell does it better, that's why I belong here.'
That is something no paladin should EVER do. Full stop. You are serving as a signboard for evil, making you a dupe and a pawn and a fool. You are not merely 'in alliance' with a force known for subservience to a known Evil - you are serving that evil, as well, whether you want to admit it or not.
That IS a violation of the paladin's code. In no way can what the paladin gains be greater working under the Hellknights, having evil associates constantly you cannot escape from, being a walking signboard of Hell's way is best, then doing the exact same jobs working for some other force that espouses Lawful Good, not just Any Law.
And Paizo has put stuff into canon and retracted it before because of egregrious errors, so making the canon argument isn't going to fly. Even Jacobs, who doesn't really like paladins, basically said paladins belong to orders who are very much not in tune with Thrune and Cheliax and tend to be pigeonholed into extremely LG roles...but they still ignore the very thing that they are "Hellknights", and people don't think of LG servants of goodness and hope when they say that name.
And tolerating evil members of the Hellknights is NOT 'exceptional circumstances.' It is 'business as usual'. Forget about a 'greater evil' and constant atonements, a paladin simply isn't able to put up with it. He might ally with a Hellknight for a fight against a greater foe, but 'being' a Hellknight is not an alliance...there's no way the paladin code allows such a thing.
And doubly so for any Hellknight order which enforces a law that discriminates against the innocent or helpless, which is a lot of them. Paladins should avoid even the appearance of tolerating the works of evil, and a name like Hellknights fairly reeks of the influence of same.
So, eh, you aren't going to convince me Paladins should or even can be Hellknights. There are too many other paths they could follow to contribute, and too many dark influences to put up with that their Code specifically doesn't allow. "I'm going to honor Iomadae and join the Hellknights!"...indeed.
They just don't mix.
===Aelryinth
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I will freely admit that I did not read the whole thread (time crunch at the moment), but as someone who enjoys playing LG characters in ways that some question and who engender really great RP - and also as a lover of Hellknight lore;
- Order of the Godclaw incorporates more gods that a Paladin could worship than gods they could not.
- Order of the Pyre was the only order to defy the decision to unify behind Thrune and their order's focus is in the destruction of cults and such.
I think it is very possible to play a Paladin or LG character in either of these orders, and at the same time impossible to play one as part of other orders (Rack and Gate come to mind fairly quickly... I could see a Paladin of a LN god such as Abadar being okay with Order of the Nail, maybe, too).
It's all in the nuances of what constitutes "good" and what constitutes "law" in the eyes of the deity first and foremost, and in the character's relationship with their god.
Pending the new book coming out in a few months, I've been able to read everything published about Hellknights, and the more I read, the more ways I find to justify playing one with *any* Lawful alignment out there.
Hope this helps/adds to the discussion :)
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Belonging to an order of knights which lionizes hell to the extent they name their own overarching order to them is hardly grasping at straws - it is blatantly telling people that 'Hell does it better, that's why I belong here.'
Not looking to start an argument - each player is totally allowed to look at Golarion in their own way - but the name Hellknight came about as almost a joke (okay, 70/30 being mad / joke) by a Paladin of Aroden. To fight evil, they used the tactics of Hell when the tactics of Heaven failed to protect the innocent. They were founded under a monarchy that was so fanatically loyal to Aroden that when Aroden died, their whole country went up in smoke, in fact.
Most of the orders are certainly of an evil bend, no doubt, but some have the potential for good - trying to make one of these orders focus more on good would make for a rather good quest for a Paladin, IMHO - redeeming a whole order of lawful warriors would be a major swing in the balance of power in Cheliax.
As always, just my thoughts - enjoying that this seems to be a neat and spirited conversation on Hellknight lore! :)
The argument on what gods the Hellknights honor isn't going to work. You're a paladin joining a Knighthood that honors ASMODEUS. The exemplar of LE King of Hell.
That simply isn't going to fly. Period. Full Stop. A LG fighter might be able to stomach it, but not a paladin. It definitely wouldn't convince a cleric of the LG gods, either.
Ergo, the Order might be tolerant of the differences, being LN and all, but the paladins certainly are NOT.
By becoming a hellknight, you are effectively saying you are in alignment and alliance with the other Hellknight orders...fellow Hellknights! That is also explicitly forbidden by the code, as it allows association under exceptional circumstances, it doesn't allow open alliance as a routine, everyday reality!
So, nah, I'm not buying it, period. Paizo can stick it in canon or what have you, but IMC, there can be LG Hellknights, but they aren't paladins (and the LG types are a little self-delusional and tending to the LN side of things, of course).
===Aelryinth
Default is alliance, you'd have to have a specific situation to put them at loggerheads.
And in people's eyes, Hellknights are Hellknights. All your good deeds are doing is distracting people from or hiding the evil actions of your peers, in your order or another.
No paladin should tolerate such things. You're being an idiot pawn and signboard for Evil. It just boggles my mind that any paladin would even consider joining an order called 'Hellknights', let alone before you start getting into what many Hellknights and orders actually do!
==Aelryinth
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Default is alliance, you'd have to have a specific situation to put them at loggerheads.
Again, not necessarily. The Order of the Rack is notorious for being too zealous for even the other Hellknight orders to deal with - they're hardly allies by default.
(It's probably also why they're the de facto "Hellknight enemies" in APs - that and their willingness to serve House Thrune.)
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No paladin should tolerate such things. You're being an idiot pawn and signboard for Evil. It just boggles my mind that any paladin would even consider joining an order called 'Hellknights', let alone before you start getting into what many Hellknights and orders actually do!
What, like putting down dangerous cults, such as demon-worshippers or human-sacrificers (Pyre)? Keeping an eye on the Thrunes in case they need to be put down (Scourge)? Rescuing kidnap victims (Torrent)? Hunting fugitives (Chain)?
All of these things sound like something a Paladin would be proud to be a part of.
It's worth remembering that the reason the Hellknight orders became the force they did is because of the Chelish civil war, in which the population of Cheliax was, from what I can tell, at least cut into a third, and more likely in many areas literally decimated (cut to a tenth) or destroyed. A civil war that was so terrible that even the infernal power of Thrune was preferable to the bloodshed and destruction happening everywhere. Anarchy so profound that only a the lawful neutral orders who'd expressly rejected Aroden's demon-corrupted worship* as part of their forge and founding were able to gather together, form a coherent plan, and execute it, bringing peace and literally saving an entire civilization from being devoured and murdered by itself.
*
Many Hellknights exist in a tenuous peace with Thrune. They don't serve the Order of the Scourge, but there is a tentative...
you will have to remember that the Hellknights started before the civil war due to the cult of the demon lord of heresy causing the death of the wife and son of the first leader of the hellknights,
source in council of thieves
Just to be clear, this is exactly what I was referencing.
(I'm a bit confused by your word choice of "you will have to remember" - that could be taken as "you will have to remember, because obviously you do" or "you will have to remember because you don't seem to be" and those have different connotations; I can't tell which you mean. Sorry.)
EDIT: Also, if you want more information, that link that I have in the post you quoted about the Order of the Nail leads to the Pathfinder Wiki. They have lots of information in a slightly more condensed form. If you want specific sites from me, it's going to be Council of Thieves, Part 5, Mother of Flies as the majority source, with more sprinkled throughout; there are other sources as well, such as Curse of the Crimson Throne and still more to get a broader picture of Hellknights in general, but the specific bit referenced is explicitly discussed both in Mother of Flies and on the Pathfinder Wiki.
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Look. There are evil Hellknights. There are "evil Orders" of Hellknights. No one is denying this.
Order of the Wrack. Order of the Gate. If you want to be lawful good: don't join those orders.
But there are canonical paladins in the Hellknights.
Pg 62, Council of Thieves 3: What Lies in Dust, Armiger Regan Vasha (LG female paladin).
While some repeatedly reject anything from those sources, the only claim is "That one part from it that got redacted." which, you know, is a single line (specifically part of a sentence on page 63 of part 5) and a couple of paragraphs on pages 65-66 of part 5. Unless the whole thing is disavowed (like the Dragonfall adventure is), then we're left to assume the rest is canon until otherwise proven.
Effectively, the only argument that has any weight against paladins as Hellknights is, "Some hellknight orders are not viable with paladins as their members."
The others come off as "It doesn't match my personal interpretation." which is really an empty argument to make (and comes off as one, long, extended "Eeewwww~!" to boot).
And, I'll say this clearly: there is nothing wrong with holding an interpretation different from setting canon.
But by these alternate interpretations given, a paladin can't be an iconic character in Council of Thieves, yet she is, as a paladin; a paladin can't be a hellknight, yet there are hellknight paladins. Hence, either the material by which we all play the game is just wrong, ooooorrrrrr our interpretation of that material is wrong.
If anyone wishes to make an argument against the concept and haughtily wait to see if it gets redacted, and then go "I told you so." they may certainly wait until then at which point they can do so with pride. Otherwise, such arguments have been laid out, repeatedly, with the same holes.
As a whole (individual exceptions aside), Hellknights...
... don't serve hell.
... didn't name themselves after hell (or name themselves at all).
... aren't servants of Thune.
... actively feel they are fighting against a "greater evil" (that is the destruction of civilization via chaos and the death of all, as a result; and/or other actively evil organizations).
In individual cases, Hellknights...
... are run by lawful good individuals.
... serve Iomedae's and Torag's interests directly.
... have canonical paladin(s) among their ranks.
... perform many actions against "greater" evil threats.
... actively work to curtail the excesses of and even directly oppose the evil powers they ostensibly are paid by.
In individual cases, Hellknights...
... are run by evil people.
... serve evil ends.
... serve evil groups.
The general and first individual cases can have paladins.
The last individual cases cannot.
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In my opinion, the Hellknights are basically the incarnation of the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Well, certain definitions of it at least.
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In my opinion, the Hellknights are basically the incarnation of the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Well, certain definitions of it at least.
. . . Which, of course, once again brings up the questino of where the road that is paved with bad intentions leads to . . . .