Parry triggers Attack of Opportunity


Rules Discussion

Liberty's Edge

My initial read-though of the APG playtest made me look at the Parry weapon trait for the first time. It allows you, if Trained, to “spend an Interact action to position your weapon defensively, gaining a +1 circumstance bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.” The Interact basic action has the Manipulate tag. The Attack of Opportunity reaction is triggered when a “ creature within your reach uses a manipulate action[.]”

It already struck me as weird that drawing a weapon triggers Attack of Opportunity, but it seems nuts that using a weapon “defensively to block attacks” provokes an attack.

Or am I missing something?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Sounds like a good thing to mention in the Playtest Feedback Forum ^_^


The playtest just made him look at it for the first time, this is actually kind of a problem right now in the core rulebook that I'd never noticed either. The Parry trait of weapons like main gauche, Bo staff, and clan dagger technically provoke attack of opportunity


Thinking on this further, this might not actually be an oversight. I'm thinking of when I fence, sometimes I'll open a line by readying a parry in order to strike a different line. Since far fewer things actually get AoO, this could be like a corner case tactic. Yeah, you provoke, but you're the front line dual wielding duesist, maybe you WANT to draw out that reaction since you're the one least likely to be hit anyway. It also serves to balance and differentiate parry weapons from just having a buckler which offers the same bonus

consider:

I am not a fighter. My opponent readies his main gauche in a defensive position, ready to block my next weapon and he is harder to hit.

I am a fighter. My opponent readies his main gauche to cover his left side, and I immediately take my attack of opportunity in the space he left open to do so at his right or his head


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Either it's an oversight and needs errata, or it's not an oversight and the text can stay unchanged but people will be asking about it for the rest of time so it needs to be FAQ'd. (You know, once the new FAQ system exists.)


K1 wrote:

It is definitely an oversight.

It works like the release action.

if you think it should work like the release action, that's the easiest way to errata it. I think it gives combat more depth and balances weapons with parry against bucklers, though. Being able to use double slice or other feats with similar requirements and still gain a circumstance bonus to AC seems reasonable to trigger a reaction that only 1/8 of the bestiary has, especially when like a third of the creatures that have AoO are different ages of dragon and linnorn.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Either it's an oversight and needs errata, or it's not an oversight and the text can stay unchanged but people will be asking about it for the rest of time so it needs to be FAQ'd. (You know, once the new FAQ system exists.)

If it is not an oversight, potentially meriting a fix, or it probably should go ahead and be reworded to point out it can provoke so people don't wonder.

If it is their intent for it to provoke, then people will wonder why people would take it.

It might be interesting, if it simply included an exception that it does not provoke in some specific case. Kind of like the old improved uncanny dodge. Something like the action doesn't provoke if the level of the opponent is higher than the defender. Or doesn't provoke unless the rank of the defenders' weapon skill is higher than the rank in the attacker's weapon skill.

So someone with Expert in a weapon fighting someone only trained in a parry weapon being used, would get an AoO, while someone Expert against Expert would not. Alternately, it you could have it require they be higher level, or higher total proficiency bonus?

However, it would seem odd to want to fish for AoO like that, as you are giving away a free attack at their highest attack bonus (not subject to MAP) It would seem like allowing a raise shield option to provoke an AoO.


Loreguard wrote:


However, it would seem odd to want to fish for AoO like that, as you are giving away a free attack at their highest attack bonus (not subject to MAP) It would seem like allowing a raise shield option to provoke an AoO.

it is definitely a narrow use, but soaking AoO for a squishier target seems viable in a pinch, also raise a shield doesn't have the manipulate tag. They'd have to either give it an exception like release, or call parry its own action instead of interact. I can certainly see how they just threw on interact as a catch all, not thinking about the, hm, interaction, but I can also see it as a balancing effect for a defensive trait on a weapon. I think adding rules similar to uncanny dodge would be more of class feat territory than weapon traits, but I like the idea.


If riposte attacks happened on a fail when welding a parry weapon, not just crit fail, I could see a point.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Doesn't make much sense as written.

There is an cognitive disconnect between taking an action that should make me less hittable giving someone an extra chance to hit me. Its not a great concept. As it stands it stands its way to situational, if parry granted an extra on demand reaction like shield block it might make more sense.

It being a weak version of raise shield action without a reaction (shield block) is fine. It being on par with a buckler is fine since you can still use a buckler hand to manipulate or hold something else.

It doesn't need an additional penalty because it allows the option to duel wield, you can do that with a shield as it can be used as a weapon so not really a great trade off.

If parry granted the riposte reaction on a fail rather than crit fail I could see it needing some kind of additional balance. Or if it allowed you to roll to reduce damage as a reaction it might also need some balancing.

I am sure the provoke is an oversight, it doesn't make cognitive sense that a defensive option increases your chance to take damage.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It does if it's intentional in order to goad someone into attacking you.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
It does if it's intentional in order to goad someone into attacking you.

That's not really a parry so much as a kind of feint. I used to fence, parry should be a reaction, not a raise weapon action. Also why would a character provoke someone into attacking me by trying to look defensive?

If I was trying to provoke someone into attacking me then shouldn't that give some reaction benefit to respond? To me that sounds like a deception activity closer to a feint. Its a mess of a concept as it.

Even with the current interpretation that it is somehow a way you hold your weapon to make you harder to hit doesn't gel well with provoke concept.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It's because you're changing your handling, and thus the visual of there being an opening.

It's not a feint because you're not doing a fake out, you're legitimately doing something risky.

Liberty's Edge

ofMars wrote:
Being able to use double slice or other feats with similar requirements and still gain a circumstance bonus to AC seems reasonable to trigger a reaction

You can’t shield block with a parry weapon, though. And you don’t have to draw the shield, which both increases action economy and avoids the Attack of Opportunity that drawing the parry weapon ALSO provokes. Shields seem much better.


I completely forgot about shield block

Liberty's Edge

Cyder wrote:
It being a weak version of raise shield action without a reaction (shield block) is fine.

It’s a much weaker version of Raise a Shield.

You almost certainly enter combat with your shield on your arm; you almost certainly don’t enter combat with a parry weapon in hand, so you’re down an action.

Drawing your weapon triggers Attack of Opportunity; you generally don’t draw a shield.

You can Shield Block with a shield; you can’t shield block with a parry weapon.

You can attack with a shield; you can attack with a parry weapon.

Quote:
If parry granted the riposte reaction on a fail rather than crit fail I could see it needing some kind of additional balance.

You don’t need a parry weapon to use Opportune Riposte. You can do that with your shield boss.


Luke Styer wrote:


You almost certainly enter combat with your shield on your arm; you almost certainly don’t enter combat with a parry weapon in hand, so you’re down an action.

Why would this be the case? Shields are for the most part a pain in the ass to wear everywhere, much more so than a majority of parrying weapons. If you are trekking through a dangerous area it makes FAR more sense to be fully prepared for battle as you walk through it than for some reason having your shield prepared but not having your weapon/s out.

If you need your hand you just sheath or put aside your weapon briefly.

Liberty's Edge

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Why would this be the case? Shields are for the most part a pain in the ass to wear everywhere, much more so than a majority of parrying weapons.

There is literally an exploration activity that allows you to enter combat with your shield raised, so the game clearly assumes you can wander around with your shield on.

Quote:
If you are trekking through a dangerous area it makes FAR more sense to be fully prepared for battle as you walk through it than for some reason having your shield prepared but not having your weapon/s out.

This may be a holdover from the playtest, but I’ve been operating on the belief that By default characters don’t enter encounter mode with weapons drawn. Looking now I’m not sure I see a clear statement one way or the other.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i think this is likely the balancing point between a bucker and parrying weapons.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Luke Styer wrote:


This may be a holdover from the playtest, but I’ve been operating on the belief that By default characters don’t enter encounter mode with weapons drawn. Looking now I’m not sure I see a clear statement one way or the other.

if you're walking around with your shield drawn... you probably also have your weapon out, except for if you're specifically using your other hand for something else.

like you're either expecting combat and ready or just walking around.


To make it even more clear

-Unarmed > no defense (afaik)

-1 weapon/1 free hand

a) 1 action, if the weapon has parry, to gain +1 circ AC

b) 1 action, with dueling parry, with the fighter class feat to gain +2 circ AC

-2 weapons

a) 1 action, if the weapon has parry, to gain +1 circ

b) 1 action, with twin parry, with the fighter/ranger class feat ( no parry weapons ), to gain +1 circ AC

c) 1 action, with twin parry, with the fighter/ranger class feat ( one of the weapons has parry trait ), to gain +2 circ AC.

- Shield

a) 1 action to raise shield, to gain from +1 to +2 circ AC depends your shield.

It is simple and logical.

No need imo neither to discuss nor to find "an hidden roleplaying explanation because the developers decided to make it a manipulate action without adding that it doesn't provoke aoo".


Note: I added this to the list of things for FAQ/errata. I'd agree. I assume it's unintentional, but even if it is, a FAQ is appropriate since it's so counter-intuitive to a lot of people.

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