Shuriken and other pure thrown weapons at later levels?


Advice


Howdy!

So, myu alchemist loves shurikens. They're free action so they work with various feats. and they basically keep his hands open for tools or bomb/item drawing (he's a bomber). At low levels they're fine and with quick silver mutagens I can keep up a fairly respectible item bonus (which also helps with pepetual infusions later-until I get the alch goggles).

So my question is.. Does anyone know of anything to help keep using them at later levels? Basically you can't really enchant them persay. You can with like returning and such but at that point you've lost the benefits of using shuriken (free draw empty hands).
So.. Is there an item in any suppliments or in any book thats come out so far.. Like a glove or something, that lets you give enchantments to thrown items? Because it would be great for the myriad of thrown stuff like that but mostly for shurikens.
OR
Is there an item like Blinkback belt? SoI could enchant one shuriken and have it reappear on me ready to be drawn (i.e. not in my hand like returning)

Otherwise I guess I'll have to switch to Starknife which shares the same 20ft as shuriken and bombs.. though upside on that is you can stick wounding on it.
I would prefer shuriken though since I can keep a few specific poisoned ones and use htem on command 'cause alchemists are really bad at poisoning things (really wish they shared Poison Weapon with rogues)


Nothing currently exists for this, no. Maybe in the APG?

Shadow Lodge

Throwing weapons have always been weak spot in the D&D/Pathfinder rules, so you probably shouldn't hold your breath on this: At least Returning (PF2) doesn't wait until your next turn like Returning (PF1) did, which means you don't need to have multiple throwing weapons enchanted.


Throwing, even for a warrior, needs Str & Dex to remain competitive (to bows, that is, or even melee mobility/leaping) into higher levels. Shuriken, unfortunately, pay a hefty price for allowing free hands (much like spiked gauntlets do so little damage). Combine those two and it's hard to compete when Striking Runes come along.

IMO, Shuriken are hardly martial-level as weapons go, though I can see how it's realistic to call them such. One of their best aspects is they can cause bleed damage, except I don't think you'll ever get that Critical Specialization! So I'm surprised you invested to get martial proficiency with them, and perhaps you might want to retrain out of such.
It doesn't seem there's any way to make throwing worth the action.

Except... perhaps with poison you can ramp up. Compare that with your other options (namely bombs) to see if it's worthwhile. Given you're a bomber making those with efficiency, I don't think poisons will compete though. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just that you've become that much better of a bomber. This is much like a mage who alternates between crossbow & cantrips will typically drop the crossbow once its usefulness has waned and it'd take too much investment just to hold even.


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I wonder if there would be any problem in making a Braclet that transfered properties to thrown items. Kind of like Alchemist Goggles but allowing enchantments on them.
Easy enough to put in wording that it will not overlap (or will always overlap) any innate weapon enchantments.

Braclet because of Jaraxal from RA Salvatore books makes me think of it. Gloves would work too I suppose but are .. idk less uniquely interesting.
it could also just be a belt affixed throwing item holster.

I suppose that really, only shuriken are like this. Darts, Javalin and the like all take an action to draw anyway so they probably use returning on them.

Well maybe GM'll let me make a shuriken case that provides runic influences


Zwordsman wrote:
I wonder if there would be any problem in making a Braclet that transfered properties to thrown items.

I don't see any issue with it.

Gloves of Returning (level 3, invested).
When you throw something while wearing these gloves it comes right back to your hand. This is similar to the effect of the Returning rune, allowing you to make multiple attacks with the same thrown weapon. You can choose to have the item not return.

Though personally, I prefer the image of a never ending bandoleer over returning gloves.

Endless Bandoleer (level 4, invested). This item provides you with a never ending supply of summoned weapons. The type of weapon is chosen when the endless bandoleer is created. You can add runes to the bandoleer as if it was a weapon of that type, and those runes apply to the weapons you draw from it.

Activate Free Action: You draw a weapons of the set type, with the attached runes. These weapons disappear shortly after you let go of them, though they last long enough for a thrown weapon to strike.

And some extra flavors...
Elemental Endless Bandoleer (level 5, invested). This is the same as an Endless Bandoleer, but the weapons created are made of fire/cold/lighting, and the damage they deal is the same.

Weapon Master's Bandoleer (level 5, invested). This is the same as an Endless Bandoleer, but you gains the following.

Activate 1 action: You chance what type of weapon the bandoleer can summon, and draw a weapon of that type.


That first example wouldn't really work for what I was originally aiming for
SHuriken--and all future 'free action thrown' weapons dont' want just returning. You can do that already I believe. The issue is keeping your hands open, and gaining the extra dice/to hit.

The bandoliers sound pretty nifty-though bandoliers are't really useful for most throwing items. The concept is nice- Being able to Rune the thrown item, and then just forget about the thrown item. Good for shuriken style.
I would see it being a shuriken storage box though since currently they're the only weapon I know of in the strange situation where adding Returning removes the weapons base advantage.

Most throwing weapons, darts, javelin, aklys, are fairly reasonable to enchant with returning and maintain carrying it.

Sovereign Court

Maybe a variant of Doubling Rings that work with thrown weapons?


That might work... Though then you'd have to carry a 'main' weapon somewhere. Which would be unfortunate but more workable (though plenty of runes that don't work on throwing that would work on the melee weapon you'd most likely hold in your main hand). Whip+shuriken would be a nice territory style with bombs.
Though hard to not go with returning starknife again


Something else you could do right now within the rules is poison your shurikens before combat to make up for their lack of weapon damage. Some feats also only work with reload 0 weapons and shurikens don't require an action to draw at the beginning of combat, so a single shuriken with returning still has those benefits over other thrown weapons.


I am houseruling a similar item (not playing PF1 myself, I wasn't familar with the belt), mostly because I wanted to create a knife throwing NPC, and the Yoyo effect of the returning rune just feels off.

Restocking Quiver/Belt/Bandoleer

Non Consumable Items (so normal arrows, but not single use arrows) removed and used to make a ranged strike with within a single turn, return to the container at the end of the turn.

This allows a certain quick draw knife thrower, who will eventually have a variety of knives, to just look cool.

But for the general player, they can survive on a handful of arrows/bolts, regularly throw a javlin, etc.

I am also giving my Iruxi tribe the knowledge of how to make wooden shields with a javelin compartment, and since many of them are rangers, quick draw is going to get some use there too.


I have to agree, thrown weapons aren't given a lot of love in these style systems. Shuriken are even more awkward, as they are ranged weapons with a zero reload; essentially they use 0+ hands (compared to the bows' 1+ hands). I'd almost say that a handwraps would work for them as they would for unarmed attacks, although that's again houserule. Just some way to identify their 'launcher' as their stats look more like that of ammunition than a throwing weapon.

Conversely, how often in fights would people rely on large numbers of thrown weapons? I keep thinking of the Greek or Roman example of tossing a spear or two before closing into melee, but generally I've never heard of a true example of thrown weapons being someone's primary armament to that extent.


Tribon wrote:
Something else you could do right now within the rules is poison your shurikens before combat to make up for their lack of weapon damage. Some feats also only work with reload 0 weapons and shurikens don't require an action to draw at the beginning of combat, so a single shuriken with returning still has those benefits over other thrown weapons.

Yep this is one of my major go to. Its rather nice. Its also one reason I want the Poisoned WEapon from Rogue somewhere down the line. Extra d4 amage on it.

THough using Item Bonus via Quicksivler mutagen works though HP painful for that range.

It combos nicely with Ranger dip+Hunter strike thingy

Qaianna wrote:
Conversely, how often in fights would people rely on large numbers of thrown weapons? I keep thinking of the Greek or Roman example of tossing a spear or two before closing into melee, but generally I've never heard of a true example of thrown weapons being someone's primary armament to that extent.

Historically not really that I know of. Unless you count the 3-5 chakram from that culture. They were rather along the lines of shuriken in function to P2. I don't remember the name of the culture but a quick google would likely show it. I remember they used it relatively often as an opener prior to a hand spear or a rather nasty looking blade that reminded me of a Kris. In real life it doesnt' really work that way, though Philipines loved poison blades, according to that side of my family.

buut. I'm really ove the camp of "this is fantasy, why not" it makes sense and looks rather cool. Also really does serve a very needed niche in the game with how some characters have hand-edness issues. We got pure magic stuff, and folks throwing things hundreds of feet. Pretty fine with things overall. I think.


As an utterly random thing I realize today is that Leshy's can get taht seedpod ranged unarmed attack?

Which.. is the easiest way to pull something like this off now for any class. Armwraps should work it.

If there is someway to turn Bashing unarmed to P or S then you could even pull off the wounding that I really want


Let's discuss the value of a Blinkback Belt in Pathfinder 2.

[url]https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back/[/url]

Given the constraints of the new game, this would be rather valuable. More than the measly 2500 gold it costed in PF1 (in that game, 2500 gp is not much).

Let's also discuss the viability of the "throwing lots of Shuriken at once" fantasy image.

This would be VERY valuable in the context of PF2. The ability to make more than one attack with a single Strike action, that is. Honestly, I can't see how this could be made to work as desired at all (i.e. allowing a low-level character to throw more than one Shuriken with a single Strike, assuming it actually counts as more than one projectile).

I could see a specific Monk(?) action that, say, throws three Shuriken with a single [three-action] Action. But then we'd have to ask ourselves: what's the point?


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Zapp wrote:


**Cut for space*** this sectin is about the blinkback

Blinkback wouldn't be very valuable at all, except for maybe shurikens. Quick draw in p2 works differently, its an interact+ strike. Meaning it can not work with most combat feats. So majority of the throwing weapons are better of with the new Returning Rune, which returns as soon as the attack finishes-not at the end of the turn. Because this can be used wtih anything.

The only reason it would be good for a shuriken is because of Reload 0--which is Shurikens only drawing point and its 'niche' So having it always in your hand (as with returning) makes it somewhat pointless (Except for any fluff reasons) as its damage/range is lower than most other options most players have (much less the rarity).

I am really confused about what you're referencing here.

Zapp wrote:


Let's also discuss the viability of the "throwing lots of Shuriken at once" fantasy image.

This would be VERY valuable in the context of PF2. The ability to make more than one attack with a single Strike action, that is. Honestly, I can't see how this could be made to work as desired at all (i.e. allowing a low-level character to throw more than one Shuriken with a single Strike, assuming it actually counts as more than one projectile).

What do you mean make more than one attack witn a single strike action? Did I miss something?

I don't think any one is referring to some sort of multi throw shuriken ability? I mean you could do it with feats (Same as any reload 0 ranged) Are you talking about the 1 action 2 hit feat that Rangers get? Or the fighter's 2 action 2 throw at nicer MAP?
Though you can do it with a shuriken due to reload 0 I believe most of those feats also work with two held throwing weapons- except for the one ranger one that calls out reload 0 weapons only. but that was made for and is most often used by bows, which have better in every aspect (unless you need 2 free hands as opposed to 1). So not very valuable for a shuriken user, except for the big weapon guy who wants some range I guess--but thats a lot of feats sunk into get access and then a feat just for that one action.

So.. any low level character who somehow gets access to shuriken could throw 1 shuriken per action.
or a ranger who gets that feat (I forget if its lv 1 or 2) could do the same. Though would be an odd choice over Bows. But it would work and look cool-but rather not useful
Which links back to my sadness over the lack of a throwing enahcner. Would help shuriken, it would also help players who want to quick draw and throw other weapons (as opposed to focus on one with returning)


Pretty easy to homebrew a bag of infinite shurikens. With whatever runes you want on it.

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