Allow more martial abilities to stack?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So with all the martial debates going on, i was browsing feats and stuff and i started thinking... so many of these feats and class abilities are limited to their own specific action. For example, Vital Strike, Spring Attack, Cleave. Iajutsu Strike, ect. Now I am no guru on how certain things could affect game balance and such but I was wondering, would allowing these abilities to stack be unbalancing or actually good for the game? For instance, if you allowed Cleave, Vital Strike, and spring attack to stack you could do almost a weakened full attack n the go but also hit every adjecent enemy to the main enemy. This may seem powerful but it is rediculously feat intensive (dodge, mobility, spring attack, cleave, vital strike, greater cleave).

By consequence though, it allows the fighters rediculous wall of feats do something actually cool Since he can afford all those feats.

What do you all think? Should they errata or whatever all these abilities to allow them to stack or is it too op?


While I'm generally more in line with boosting the feats, and removing the prerequisites, I would probably allow this. Especially since Vital Strike alwys looked to me as a feat that you use in these combos. But, while this looks ok, what are other combinations you are thinking of?


The martial debates are not about making martial characters stronger in combat, which stacking these feats would do. This should be in homebrew section as well.


Well in parallel is also the issue of martials being... well... boring.

Having a turn that consists of "i full attack... pass" Is dull. Allowing say "ook Ill do a Spring attack to move, trip the guy with my staff, then as he falls, triggermy felling smash to AoO him and then move toward the other guy" or "I Iajutsu strike with vital strike and cleave" is cool.


I can see two problems right off the bat.

1. There are going to be a lot of wacky rules interactions if the abilities can be mixed. And this will only get worse as more materials get released.

2.All of those attack abilities amount to "The Fighter (presumably a fighter) hits things, but kinda differently in a way that isn't that different than a full attack". Still doesn't help with doing things out of combat, and it doesn't give them much in the way of interesting tactical decisions in combat(the times where both spring attack-vital strike-cleave and full attack are both good options will be few and far between).


Well out of combat is kind of a seperate beast, I am looking at the issue of many martials being boring because anything oyher than looking like Rock em Sock em robots full attacking is horrid (vital strike just sucks becausr it looks like it should interact with spring attack.,, but does not.).

This would allow mobile fighting and make more dynamic combat


Rub-Eta wrote:
The martial debates are not about making martial characters stronger in combat, which stacking these feats would do. This should be in homebrew section as well.

Define 'stronger'?

The Vital Strike example given in the Original Post isn't Stronger persay, it's more flexible. It's an ability to better adapt to situations or actually make viable use of a garbage feat [Spring Attack] that normally horribly nerfs you. Aka it's making weak options viable rather than creating more overall strength.


Rub-Eta wrote:
The martial debates are not about making martial characters stronger in combat, which stacking these feats would do. This should be in homebrew section as well.

Indeed. The martial debates mostly seem to be about making the martials stop being martials at all and becoming sword mages.


RDM42 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
The martial debates are not about making martial characters stronger in combat, which stacking these feats would do. This should be in homebrew section as well.
Indeed. The martial debates mostly seem to be about making the martials stop being martials at all and becoming sword mages.

They're really not. Badass Martial /= sword mage.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
The martial debates are not about making martial characters stronger in combat, which stacking these feats would do. This should be in homebrew section as well.
Indeed. The martial debates mostly seem to be about making the martials stop being martials at all and becoming sword mages.
They're really not. Badass Martial /= sword mage.

Since the proposed solutions often seem to be to add magic or what may as well be magic to the class ...


RDM42 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
The martial debates are not about making martial characters stronger in combat, which stacking these feats would do. This should be in homebrew section as well.
Indeed. The martial debates mostly seem to be about making the martials stop being martials at all and becoming sword mages.
They're really not. Badass Martial /= sword mage.
Since the proposed solutions often seem to be to add magic or what may as well be magic to the class ...

How exactly are you defining 'what may as well be magic'? If your view is ultra narrow on what a badass martial trained to be far more powerful than ordinary men is capable of then I could see you having issues with high level martials truly filling their level.

Keep in mind every 2 levels is intended to be a doubling of power, that means a level 11 martial should be 32 times as powerful as a level 1 martial and twice as powerful as a level 9, where in the current rules he's roughly linear if that.


PIXIE DUST wrote:

So with all the martial debates going on, i was browsing feats and stuff and i started thinking... so many of these feats and class abilities are limited to their own specific action. For example, Vital Strike, Spring Attack, Cleave. Iajutsu Strike, ect. Now I am no guru on how certain things could affect game balance and such but I was wondering, would allowing these abilities to stack be unbalancing or actually good for the game? For instance, if you allowed Cleave, Vital Strike, and spring attack to stack you could do almost a weakened full attack n the go but also hit every adjecent enemy to the main enemy. This may seem powerful but it is rediculously feat intensive (dodge, mobility, spring attack, cleave, vital strike, greater cleave).

By consequence though, it allows the fighters rediculous wall of feats do something actually cool Since he can afford all those feats.

What do you all think? Should they errata or whatever all these abilities to allow them to stack or is it too op?

From player point of view totally not over powered. In fact we play it like that. Where it gets really nasty is with giants though and if you GM give say frost giant raiders out of the monster codex improved vital strike instead of dazzling display and intimidating prowess. A CR equal fight get really tough. Killed the entire party except for the rogue because he was stealthing and moving in for back stab. I got hit on the charge for 27D6 + 104 damage because there was 3 of them. My 14th level character had 128 hit points. By the time that first round was the fighter was the only one standing and he couldn't get away. I admit it was our mistake thinking these were just normal frost giants. We came back it was ranged fire attacks, we couldn't stand toe to toe. Over power, you bet.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
PIXIE DUST wrote:

So with all the martial debates going on, i was browsing feats and stuff and i started thinking... so many of these feats and class abilities are limited to their own specific action. For example, Vital Strike, Spring Attack, Cleave. Iajutsu Strike, ect. Now I am no guru on how certain things could affect game balance and such but I was wondering, would allowing these abilities to stack be unbalancing or actually good for the game? For instance, if you allowed Cleave, Vital Strike, and spring attack to stack you could do almost a weakened full attack n the go but also hit every adjecent enemy to the main enemy. This may seem powerful but it is rediculously feat intensive (dodge, mobility, spring attack, cleave, vital strike, greater cleave).

By consequence though, it allows the fighters rediculous wall of feats do something actually cool Since he can afford all those feats.

What do you all think? Should they errata or whatever all these abilities to allow them to stack or is it too op?

all this really does is increase the numbers that martials put out in combat and that's not really what they need... might reduce reliance on full attacking though.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
RDM42 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
The martial debates are not about making martial characters stronger in combat, which stacking these feats would do. This should be in homebrew section as well.
Indeed. The martial debates mostly seem to be about making the martials stop being martials at all and becoming sword mages.
They're really not. Badass Martial /= sword mage.
Since the proposed solutions often seem to be to add magic or what may as well be magic to the class ...

DO I HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING?


Bandw2 wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
The martial debates are not about making martial characters stronger in combat, which stacking these feats would do. This should be in homebrew section as well.
Indeed. The martial debates mostly seem to be about making the martials stop being martials at all and becoming sword mages.
They're really not. Badass Martial /= sword mage.
Since the proposed solutions often seem to be to add magic or what may as well be magic to the class ...
DO I HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING?

5 bucks* says he'll say a hefty percentage of that [more than 1/3] IS magic by another name.

*Obviously this is a metaphorical bet intended to highlight my suspicions of the reaction to your work BW2


RDM42 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
The martial debates are not about making martial characters stronger in combat, which stacking these feats would do. This should be in homebrew section as well.
Indeed. The martial debates mostly seem to be about making the martials stop being martials at all and becoming sword mages.
They're really not. Badass Martial /= sword mage.
Since the proposed solutions often seem to be to add magic or what may as well be magic to the class ...

Ex abilities are SUPPOSED to be Extraordinary.

It's why a Rogue in a 5x5x5 square box with no way out who gets hit by a Fireball can still dodge it completely.

Or a Barbarian can stomp his foot and crack the earth in a 10 foot radius.

There are already "magic" Ex abilities.

Some more of them would be nice. Ones that aren't confined by logic, like some otherwise cool ones are.


Its not just "adding numbers". Its allowing something OTHER than "i full attack " which is another issu many people complain about. You can Literally make a basic bot do eeverything you do in combat now becausr it is so basic. Allowing things like Spring Attack and Vital strike actually allows for som. Dynamic combat and allows for interesting positioning and such


You know something just occurred to me.

The rules explicitly state that a jump that goes farther than a character's movement remains in the air and carries on into the next round. This continues until the jump is completed.

This means a level 20 halfling with Skill Focus: Acrobatics and at least 22 dexterity- when taking 10 on an Acrobatics check to jump- who launched his jump at the end of a double-move- would hang in the air for a full twelve seconds to jump those 41 feet.

That sounds pretty magical to me.

EDIT for clarity: said 41 jump check only goes 10 feet in the air. I repeat, he jumps 10 feet up and stays in the air for 12 seconds.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:


*Obviously this is a metaphorical bet intended to highlight my suspicions of the reaction to your work BW2

nah, if he says nothing or agrees i did a good job you owe me a 5.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
PIXIE DUST wrote:
Its not just "adding numbers". Its allowing something OTHER than "i full attack " which is another issu many people complain about. You can Literally make a basic bot do eeverything you do in combat now becausr it is so basic. Allowing things like Spring Attack and Vital strike actually allows for som. Dynamic combat and allows for interesting positioning and such

READ MY WHOLE POST


Bandw2 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:


*Obviously this is a metaphorical bet intended to highlight my suspicions of the reaction to your work BW2
nah, if he says nothing or agrees i did a good job you owe me a 5.

If he says nothing it's null, the bet is invalid because there's no response.


My definition of not magical would be things which are theoretically possibly, however wildly unlikely - but not impossible.


So... how do you feel about jumping 10 feet in the air and remaining airborn for 12 seconds, without any sort of buoyancy or additional air resistance or lift


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:


*Obviously this is a metaphorical bet intended to highlight my suspicions of the reaction to your work BW2
nah, if he says nothing or agrees i did a good job you owe me a 5.
If he says nothing it's null, the bet is invalid because there's no response.

nah you bet on a roulette on black 8, there's like 32 other options where i'll get the 5.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
So... how do you feel about jumping 10 feet in the air and remaining airborn for 12 seconds, without any sort of buoyancy or additional air resistance or lift

or the DC 30 climb check to climb a paper wall?


RDM42 wrote:
My definition of not magical would be things which are theoretically possibly, however wildly unlikely - but not impossible.

Then your definition is already incompatible with the ruleset and some extant Ex options, so we can safely ignore it.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
So... how do you feel about jumping 10 feet in the air and remaining airborn for 12 seconds, without any sort of buoyancy or additional air resistance or lift

To put this in perspective, if two such halflings [or gnomes or dwarves] made this same jump across a 40 foot wide chasm and the first person failed to roll over 20 [to stay airborn for the first round of the two round jump] for whatever reason, then during the second round of the jump alone they would fall around 500 feet.

TL;DR two people jump, with nothing but mundane skill. One falls orders of magnitude faster than the other, because their mundane skill was less.


Rynjin wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
My definition of not magical would be things which are theoretically possibly, however wildly unlikely - but not impossible.
Then your definition is already incompatible with the ruleset and some extant Ex options, so we can safely ignore it.

The fact that these things exist in the system does not mean more of them should be added.


RDM42 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
My definition of not magical would be things which are theoretically possibly, however wildly unlikely - but not impossible.
Then your definition is already incompatible with the ruleset and some extant Ex options, so we can safely ignore it.
The fact that these things exist in the system does not mean more of them should be added.

And the fact that you think no more should be added doesn't mean more of them shouldn't be added.


Bandw2 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
So... how do you feel about jumping 10 feet in the air and remaining airborn for 12 seconds, without any sort of buoyancy or additional air resistance or lift
or the DC 30 climb check to climb a paper wall?

This just bugs the hell out of me. PAPER can be climbed but glass or ice can not?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
RDM42 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
My definition of not magical would be things which are theoretically possibly, however wildly unlikely - but not impossible.
Then your definition is already incompatible with the ruleset and some extant Ex options, so we can safely ignore it.
The fact that these things exist in the system does not mean more of them should be added.

no it's all the other things we mentioned that explain why they should, we're just proving that they're already there anyway, so we can move on.


PIXIE DUST wrote:

So with all the martial debates going on, i was browsing feats and stuff and i started thinking... so many of these feats and class abilities are limited to their own specific action. For example, Vital Strike, Spring Attack, Cleave. Iajutsu Strike, ect. Now I am no guru on how certain things could affect game balance and such but I was wondering, would allowing these abilities to stack be unbalancing or actually good for the game? For instance, if you allowed Cleave, Vital Strike, and spring attack to stack you could do almost a weakened full attack n the go but also hit every adjecent enemy to the main enemy. This may seem powerful but it is rediculously feat intensive (dodge, mobility, spring attack, cleave, vital strike, greater cleave).

By consequence though, it allows the fighters rediculous wall of feats do something actually cool Since he can afford all those feats.

What do you all think? Should they errata or whatever all these abilities to allow them to stack or is it too op?

working on this in my home brew. Trying to get some feat chains to explode, also doing something else. Fighter needs some love, long story short, and love that includes what they actually DO, not turning them into wizards.


Bandw2 wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
My definition of not magical would be things which are theoretically possibly, however wildly unlikely - but not impossible.
Then your definition is already incompatible with the ruleset and some extant Ex options, so we can safely ignore it.
The fact that these things exist in the system does not mean more of them should be added.
no it's all the other things we mentioned that explain why they should, we're just proving that they're already there anyway, so we can move on.

'Prove'? Really?


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
So... how do you feel about jumping 10 feet in the air and remaining airborn for 12 seconds, without any sort of buoyancy or additional air resistance or lift
or the DC 30 climb check to climb a paper wall?
This just bugs the hell out of me. PAPER can be climbed but glass or ice can not?

Gloss paper like the inside of your CRB cannot be climbed though.

I like the 12 second hang time... And by like I mean it's absurd. Having a higher movement speed somehow increases the force of gravity too. Vertical distance is the only thing that matters for how long you're in the air, and a 6 second jump is 150 feet up in 3 secs and 150 feet down in 3 secs. There's only one solution unless you change gravity.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Allow more martial abilities to stack? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion