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Thx, so let's see the description of Blank Slate (rogue class feat level 16):


Your deceptions confound even the most powerful mortal divinations. Detection, revelation, and Scrying effects pass right over you, your possessions, and your auras, detecting nothing unless the detecting effect has a counteract level of 20 or higher. For example, detect magic would still detect other magic in the area but not any magic on you, true seeing wouldn’t reveal you, locate or Scrying wouldn’t find you, and so on.

How could a caster arrive to a counteract level of 20?

I'm so confused about counteracting in this edition. Maybe it's because I'm not an English native speaker, I don't know, but i cant' understand anything about it. :S



Some effects try to counteract spells, afflictions, conditions, or other effects. Counteract checks compare the power of two forces and determine which defeats the other. Successfully counteracting an effect ends it unless noted otherwise.

When attempting a counteract check, add the relevant skill modifier or other appropriate modifier to your check against the target’s DC. If you’re counteracting an affliction, the DC is in the affliction’s stat block. If it’s a spell, use the caster’s DC. The GM can also calculate a DC based on the target effect’s level. For spells, the counteract check modifier is your spellcasting ability modifier plus your spellcasting proficiency bonus, plus any bonuses and penalties that specifically apply to counteract checks. What you can counteract depends on the check result and the target’s level. If an effect is a spell, its level is the counteract level. Otherwise, halve its level and round up to determine its counteract level. If an effect’s level is unclear and it came from a creature, halve and round up the creature’s level.

Critical Success Counteract the target if its counteract level is no more than 3 levels higher than your effect’s counteract level.
Success Counteract the target if its counteract level is no more than 1 level higher than your effect’s counteract level.
Failure Counteract the target if its counteract level is lower than your effect’s counteract level.
Critical Failure You fail to counteract the target.

So, here my doubts.

To be clearer le'ts say that there is "A" that wants to counteract an effect made by "B":

1- What exactly should "A" roll to counteract an effect?
2- What is the DC of "B"?
3- How do I calculate the counteract levels of both, "A" and "B"?


Thx, and what about insanity effects?
And in general conditions?

Psychic surgery heals the target of all Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma damage, and it restores all points permanently drained from the target’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also eliminates all ongoing confusion, fear, and insanity effects. Psychic surgery also removes any mental afflictions that could be removed with dispel magic, as well as mental diseases. Psychic surgery removes all effects magically altering the target’s memory, even instantaneous effects, and it can restore a memory to perfect clarity (even if the memory loss is due to the mundane passage of time).

Which are exactly the conditions/effects removed by the spell?

- Shaken
- Frightened
- Panicked
- Confused

- Cowering?
- Fascinated?
- Stunned?
- Paralyzed?
- Dazed?
- Staggered?
- Others?

- Poisons and diseases affecting mind?
- Mind-affect spells effects?

What are insanity effects?
Other not already considered?


I'm looking into this option for a friend.
Is the 5th level connection spell (synaptic pulse, 3rd level mystic spell) correct?
Or should it be its greater version (synaptic pulse greater, 5th level mystic spell)?

As by subject, does saving against a (spell, affliction etc) effect (both succeeding or failing) grant awareness about what's happening?
To what degree?


Squiggit wrote:
I feel like there's definitely a bit of a bottleneck when it comes to trying to build ideas that do a bunch of different things because each new option is basically another feat, sometimes a couple of them.

Yes, that was my first feeling about it. It's something like "I can have many different monks (thankfully!) but the difference is in "negative" because I get it by taking all the previous features and selecting only some of them." And my expectations were different, because I thought I would have had something like "normal monk, monk with weaker ki powers but more stances, monk with higher resistances and weaker attacks and so no".

Squiggit wrote:

But PF2 is much better at keeping the things you are good at relevant long term, so if you're only looking to do one or two things you'll have a lot more flexibility to take stuff that sounds fun because there's much less of an emphasis on taking maintenance feats than there were in PF1.

Ok, I imagine I could just roleplay some old features, without them being part of the rules. That could be a good solution for us. Thx!

Captain Morgan wrote:

Sure, I'll give it a go. First off, "bonus feats" is not a meaningful currency, given that most PF1 feats are basically just math enhancers... and probably need to be on a monk. There are a few options that add new abilities, like Deflect Arrows, but there are plenty that are just built into the PF2 monk. So while the PF1 monk gets 3 bonus feats, the PF2 monk gets Imrpoved Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Dodge, Spring Attack, and arguably Improved Critical. So the PF2 monk got 7 or 8 of the bonus feats the PF1 monk could pick with their 6 "bonus" feats.

Thx for the answer! Ok, my main point about extra feats is about "monk-like feats as stances". They are so "monky" and now I can have them only sacrifying other "monky" features, as the ones you reported below.

Captain Morgan wrote:

So let's look at a build. Human monk, natural ambition at 1st. Beyond that just class feats.

1st: Stance, Ki Strike
2nd: Stunning Fist
4th: Dancing Leaf
6th: Wholeness of Body
8th: Ki Rush
10: Abundant Step
12th: Diamond Soul
14th: Timeless Body
16th: Quivering Palm
18th: Empty Body
20th: Golden Body

Ok, if not human btw I have to sacrify one of this "monky" trait. ;)

Captain Morgan wrote:

Between these class feats and the built in class features, there's something equivalent to every monk feature with the exception of Tongue of the Sun and Moon. I ran out of feats for that one. HOWEVER, our PF2 monk still has all of their skill and general feats left to assign, and most of their ancestry feats. Each of which can be used to supplement your monk features, and, as you put it, "help you describe your character, they give nuances to roleplay and also increase versatility."

For example, Legendary Linguist can replace Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Cat Fall and various athletics feats can do the work of Dancing Leaf. Various ancestry feats provide you with Innate cantrips or spells. If...

That is very interesting. I had imagined there could have bene a way to use skill feats for class nuances, but I haven't already cheked it deeply. Thx! :)

Gorbacz wrote:
Nym Moondown wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Let's start with the fact that PF2 allows you to build a Monk that is actually viable, awesome, distinct from other classes and effective, which you could never say about PF1 cMonk.
Yes, for sure. :) My question was quite different though.
Because a straight-up answer to your question would you leave you with an impression of PF2 monk being a pale shadow of PF1 monk. There's no ki points for every Monk, no timeless body/empty body you gain automatically, heck, the stunning fist is an optional feat. At this point you would conclude that Monk was robbed of cool abilities it gained automatically in PF1 and its PF2 version is inferior.

So, were you guessing my conclusions without even try an explanation? :)

Gorbacz wrote:

But that isn't true. Between no longer having crappy accuracy, having no longer to rely on contrived solutions to get something other classes got just by walking into the shop and getting flaming on their weapon AND having all the class abilities Monk didn't have in PF1, it's a class on a completely different power level relative to other classes than it was in PF1.

Sure, you can add stunning fist, ki stuff, empty body and all the other stuff you had in PF1 Monk, but you aren't married to them and the class design doesn't assume that the Monk needs to be woefully underperforming in combat because, uuuuh, they don't age at some point and oooooh, at level 19 you can turn ethereal. For one minute.

As I've already said I'm not looking for powerbuilds or efficiency. I don't care very much about being good in combat, my group game style is more roleplay oriented than others. We love features because they help you describe your character, they give nuances to roleplay and also increase versatility. So, even stupid useless features could be great for us.

This problem is the equivalent of PF1 Rogue fans looking at PF2 Rogue and concluding that the class sucks because PF1 Rogue got up to 10d6 sneak attack while PF2 Rogue gets up to 4d6. They're missing the greater picture, both of the class itself but also of how it works with the rest of the ruleset.

I'm not worried about it, and I love rogues. I feel more the lack of features as for the monk ;)

That said, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not saying I'm right. I cannot say anything before trying the game. That is just an impression I wanted to share and speak about. :)

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Gorbacz wrote:
Let's start with the fact that PF2 allows you to build a Monk that is actually viable, awesome, distinct from other classes and effective, which you could never say about PF1 cMonk.

Yes, for sure. :) My question was quite different though.

Captain Morgan wrote:

That being said, many of us feel like you don't get enough class feats by default. Luckily, the devs have made it clear that you can hand out extra class feats without breaking the game math, in a way you couldn't really do in PF1. I've been giving my players a class feat every level and it works fine.
Seisho wrote:

In Pf2 however, there are almost no traps or tax feats while on the other hand there are no feats which straightup improve stats and only few which modify the math (and that usually to be on par with other options)

So I actually feel comfortable with handing out a bonus feat to my party now and then - heack, I even try a party where everyone gets an archetype for free and they are not imbalanced

because feats are good for one thing in pf2: additional options
and while your options increase you dont get inherently more powerful
combat recources run out (a little) slower, but thats about it

That is very interesting. After playing with normal rules for a while we'll try that for sure! :)

DougSeay wrote:

That isn't my impression. What is an example of a character concept that you could build with pre-APG PF1 that you cannot build properly with PF2?

OK, let's avoid casters and take for example the monk class. Is it possibile to build a monk with the same features than in PF1? (Bonus feats, ki, stunning, timeless body, empty body etc... and let's also consider that I have 1 feat every two levels I can use for stances or other monk features).

If so, how? Could you give me an example of minimal build 1 to 20?

Yes, I know. :)
Still I'm comparing my first experiences in both games.
I think part of feats features have been turned into class feats, without increasing the "one every two levels" system. So now it seems you have to choose between a "pf1 class feature" and a "pf1 feat feature". With some exceptions as pf1 skill/race feats being "covered" by pf2 skill/ancestry feats

Just finished reading the Core, and I have mixed feelings just about classes. (I love the rest of the game); I have still to play the game though.

I love classes being so flexible, I love class feats, and I love to see that many previous general feats now are available only for some classes (cleave, opportunity attack, feint feats, some metamagic feats and so on). I love how multiclassing works.
I'm ok also with casters been nerfed (or other "normalisation"), my group don't care very much about builds, efficiency and power playing, we look mostly to roleplay and to collaborate to solve situations leaving a role for each player.

Still I have the sensation that we are losing something (in relation to PF1) in every single class progression, not only in nerfed classes. If I wanted to make a characters with the same features as in PF1 (not speaking of power, just of features) I wouldn't be able to do so in this edition.
Yes, I can choose and I love it. But I feel more the choice as a loss than a gain.
I would like to have a characters with more features, without caring of efficiency, power and so on.
That could be done allowing players to take more class feats, or creating class feats that are a mixed of others (so one could have more weaker features instead of few but stronger)

Then, maybe, it's just my impression. I hope so, because the rest of the game is great!

As a player I would find it interesting in its "nosense".
"My God has given me a power I cannot use. Wow. Is he tempting me?"
or "This is my last resource. I will fall from my God's grace, but I'll save the world!"

That said, I understand both. You are not forced to it, but you still have a weird option. But I wouldn't complain that way about it :)

Ok, because in the main description there is the rule to calculate costs, "inviting" you maybe to add the missing one. :D

Is there any reason why there aren't Mk4+ Tetranode (and Mk6+ Trinode) computers?

Just like your unarmed attack proficiency increases to match your best weapon proficiency.

Are you sure? Some classes increase unarmed and weapons proficiency differently.

Thx, I think the same, glad to see there are no doubts here about. :)

So does my Innate Spells proficiency increase no matter what is my spellcasting tradition or key ability? :O

A friend is arguing that it works differently from 3.5, mainly because its description has been changed deleting the part about "overlapping and moving through each other".
He says that in PF if you target the real caster you can clearly keep on targeting him, negating the spell as a whole.

If I hit a target with a mirror image effect active and I hit the real caster (and not an image) can I still then declaring I'm hitting "that specific image" so to negate the spell from now henceforth?

In other words when I attack do I choose one specific image (so I can choose it again if I hit the true caster)? Or is it always random?

Yes, also. They are linked btw.
I feel Entropy just a bit "energetic", being linked with growing chaos while the matter decay, well it's just the cold, lightless end of everything. But that's just me! ;)

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RiverMesa wrote:
On an adjacent note, The Four Pilots of the Apocalypse?

Good idea!

Maybe a little reworked, for example:

- Death -> Decay (in the sense of matter dosgregation, for the universe expansion)

- Pestilence -> Radiation

- Famine -> Exhaustion (of energy)

- War -> War?

Lethallin wrote:
Nym Moondown wrote:
3- General Rules to craft your items

There are those.

It just boils down to "You can make stuff with enough ranks in the appropriate skill (Rank >= item level of the item your making) + the amount of UPBs the item costs, + time".

It's not exactly robust or anything, but there's rules in the core rulebook about crafting.

Sorry, I mean to create new items.

At least some guidelines would be very useful. :)

1- More Augmentations
2- More "non-critical" Fusions
3- General Rules to craft your items nothing that a non-mystic, non-witchwarper PC could get I imagine.

How can I get a target frightened?
There are many options for the shaken condition, but I see you can no more to escalate it to frightened.
Just Fear spell?

So if I'm wielding a weapon I don't consider it as operative if it hasn't that special property, right?

What about other Entropic Strike and Entropic Attunement abilities? Can I apply, for example, reach?

Another question about the vanguard.
If I'm using a weapon my damage is the one of Entropic Strike. But is the damage still acid and/or bludgeoning?

What about 7?

One more question:
8- Is it possible to score a critical hit with the 16th level area effect?
It requires an attack roll, but just one
for all enemies (not one for each enemy as the for the blast property).


Entropic Attunement

At the 16th level, as a standard action you can use your entropic strike to strike the ground or clap your hands together to deal damage in a radius. Make a single melee attack roll and compare the result to the EAC of creatures and objects within 20 feet (other than yourself). You damage each creature and object with an EAC equal to or lower than the attack result. You can expend 1 EP to exclude a number of targets equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum 1).

Thx! :)

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Hi, building a vanguard and I have some (many) doubts. Let's start with some quotes!


Entropic Strike

...Additionally, you can apply any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion the melee weapon or shield has to your entropic strike as long as the effect can be applied to a one-handed advanced melee weapon that deals acid or bludgeoning damage, doesn’t use additional ammunition or charges, and doesn’t require information beyond that specified for your entropic strike to function. If the weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion requires information provided for your weapon (such as the amount of a bleed critical hit effect), use the value for the weapon you are gaining the effect from.

Entropic Attunement
As you learn to exert finer control over your entropic strike, you can enhance it to devastating effect. The saving throw DC for any of these effects that allow a saving throw is equal to 10 + half your vanguard level + your Constitution modifier.
At 7th level, choose one of the following critical hit effects: corrode (1d8 for every 3 vanguard levels you have), knockdown, or staggered. Once made, this choice can be changed only when you gain a new vanguard level. Your entropic strike gains this critical hit effect as long as you have at least 1 Entropy Point. If your entropic strike has another critical hit effect, when you score a critical hit, you can choose either the entropic attunement critical hit effect or the other critical hit effect. Alternatively, you can expend 1 Entropy Point to apply both critical hit effects.
At 19th level, as long as you have 1 Entropy Point, your entropic strike gains a second weapon special property, selected from those listed at 5th level. When you score a critical hit with your entropic strike, you can apply either the severe wound critical hit effect or any one of the critical hit effects listed at 7th level.

Exergy - Aspect Finale
When you hit a foe with your entropic strike and the attack roll is a natural 18 or 19 (meaning the d20 shows an 18 or 19), you can apply one critical hit effect of that attack to your target, but you do not double the damage. This critical hit effect is treated as a critical hit for purposes of abilities that affect critical hits. If you roll a natural 20, the normal critical hit rules apply instead.

Devastating - Weapon Fusion
You can apply the devastating fusion only to a weapon with two or more critical hit effects. When you score a critical hit with a weapon that has the devastating fusion, you can select two of the critical hit effects to apply to the target (even if you are normally required to select just one critical hit effect).

Potent - Weapon Fusion
The potent fusion boosts the DC of saving throws associated with the weapon. When you attack using a weapon with this fusion, increase the DC for saving throws against the weapon’s critical hit effects, other weapon fusions, weapon special properties, and any effect delivered by the weapon (such as an injected poison) by 1.

Slam Down - Feat
When you score a critical hit with a weapon that deals bludgeoning damage, in addition to any other critical hit effect you would apply, you also apply the knockdown critical hit effect. If the attack would already apply a knockdown critical hit effect, you can choose to also move the target 1d4×5 feet directly away from you.

Djezet - Special Material
If djezet is properly incorporated into a hybrid or magic item, the saving throw DC for magical effects that item creates increases by 2. This increase also applies to magical effects created by weapons.

Here the question(s)

1- In Entropic Strike, what is the meaning of "doesn’t require information beyond that specified for your entropic strike to function". Could I have some examples of what works and what not?

2- Is Critical Hit DCs calculated by using the usual rule for weapons or the general one listed in Entropic Attunement? Does this change if I'm using a weapon allowed for Entropic Strike?

3- If I have a weapon with the Devastating fusion, does scoring a Critical Hit allow me (by spending 1 EP) to apply 3 effects (2 from the weapon and one from Entropic Attunement)?

4- If I have a weapon with the Potent fusion, does the Critical Hit DC increase even if i'm using a critical effect from Entropic Attunement?

5- Can I use Slam Down feat even if:
a: I'm not using a weapon (just Entropic Strike)?
b: I'm not using a weapon and I'm dealing only acid damage?
c: I've already added critical effects as for 3?

6- What is djezet description referred to with "magical effects created by weapons"? Could I have some examples?

7- How does Exergy Aspect Final interact with all previous questions? Specifically what does it mean "This critical hit effect is treated as a critical hit for purposes of abilities that affect critical hits"?

Sorry for the long post and bad English, thanks in advance!

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Hi, new at SF here. :)

Probably I'm missing something, but if Thasteron Khefak carapaces environmental protections (level 7+ armor) provide you immunity to severe radiation, why then do you get +12 to save when turned on?



Khefak-based armor diffuses radiation better than normal composites and offers environmental protections providing immunity to medium radiation and a +6 circumstance bonus to the initial saving throw against radiation exposure (not sickness). This bonus is +2 even when the environmental protections aren’t functional. If the armor’s item level is 7 or higher, its environmental protections work against high radiation, and the saving throw bonus is +9, or +4 when the environmental protections aren’t functioning. Armor crafted with khefak exoskeleton components costs 500 credits more than normal.

Thasteron khefak carapaces are even more valuable. Armor of item level 6 or lower that incorporates thasteron khefak carapaces acts as armor of item level 7 or higher composed of normal khefak carapaces. If armor of item level 7 or higher incorporates thasteron khefak carapaces, its environmental protections provide immunity to severe radiation, and the circumstance bonus to saving throws against initial radiation exposure is +12, or +6 when the environmental protections are nonfunctional. Armor crafted of thasteron khefak carapace components costs 2,000 credits more than normal.

Does Mind Blank works against SLA?
I have read something about it, but there are not clear answers and the discussions didnt' get to a shared conclusion.

The spell speak of "devices and spells" and not of SLA. Btw also other spells, as dispel magic, speak only of spells and not of SLA.

SLA definition states also that apart from component/counter exceptions they function like spells. But in the same definition it's written also that SLA con be dispelled by Dispel spells, so the previous point it's no more so valid.

Any other hint? Any official answer I missed somewhere?

Mind Blank text:

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible). This spell also grants a +8 resistance bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

SLA definition:


Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability’s effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.

Uhm, so could I use spells from other mysteries as a source?

What about natural armor bonus? Does it follow the "size rule"?

First Line

This spell functions as elemental body III, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Huge air elemental, Huge earth elemental, Huge fire elemental, or Huge water elemental.

Could I use, as a spontaneous caster, UMD on mnemonic vestment (or on the required written source) to cast a spell not on my list?

I'm looking for a way to get one wizard spell for my oracle.


If I cast Elemental Body IV to become a Medium (and not Huge) Elemental (size granted with Elemental Body II) would I get:

1- Immunity to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks; DR 5/— ?

2- Bonuses as per Elemental Body IV or Elemental Body II?

I've seen many discussions about it, but with no clear answers.


Thx :)

In Vision description it's said that it works like legend lore, while the two spells results are different (one or more legends about subject / vision about it). Can I use the second spell to get the same effect than the first? (a list of legend about the topic, maybe in vision form)

What exactly the result of Vision is? A "scene" about the subject that answers to the asked question? A picture about him in the present moment, with some clue about the asked question?


Thank you very much. :)

Thanks all.

You could replay that invisibilty misleads sight, and not hearing. So, from Stealth description:

Being Observed: If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth.

You could argue you cannot use stealth.

But the next line is:

Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.

What does it mean? That if I get cover/concealment (being invisible or not) I can use Stealth?

Why "most creatures"?

@Dasrak: Sometimes authors write their opinion/interpretation or evene a direct specification about a subject on forums...or I have been missing an errata...

Hi all,
I know the main topic has long been discussed in many threads on many forums, and there are a lot of different opinions about all this perception/stealth/invisibility stuff, but I cannot find answers to the subject specific situation.

My PC is chatting with other people (so he is seen and heard by them) and after a while DM calls for Initiative. In his turn he casts invisibility (standard) and than he tries to use stealth to hide (move).
Does it work?

By rules to use Stealth he has to have cover/concealment and not to be perceived. While invisible he has total concealment, and he cannot be seen but with true seeing and similar effects (let's not consider these effects), but he could be heard (more easly if moving to hide), and if he doesn't move (is it possibile to use Stealth without moving?) others will know his actual square.

What about if other people have scent, tremorsense, blindsense and blindsight?

I would really appreciate not only your personal ideas and interpretations but also quotes from authors/Paizo or directly from rules.

Thanks in advance,