Stealth checks just after becoming invisible


Rules Questions


Hi all,
I know the main topic has long been discussed in many threads on many forums, and there are a lot of different opinions about all this perception/stealth/invisibility stuff, but I cannot find answers to the subject specific situation.

My PC is chatting with other people (so he is seen and heard by them) and after a while DM calls for Initiative. In his turn he casts invisibility (standard) and than he tries to use stealth to hide (move).
Does it work?

By rules to use Stealth he has to have cover/concealment and not to be perceived. While invisible he has total concealment, and he cannot be seen but with true seeing and similar effects (let's not consider these effects), but he could be heard (more easly if moving to hide), and if he doesn't move (is it possibile to use Stealth without moving?) others will know his actual square.

What about if other people have scent, tremorsense, blindsense and blindsight?

I would really appreciate not only your personal ideas and interpretations but also quotes from authors/Paizo or directly from rules.

Thanks in advance,
Francesco


The rules for these situations are pretty clear, imo.

If the enemy is intelligent, they could infer that a freshly invisible creature didn't have enough time to move away from the square it was last seen in, and target that square with an attack. The invisible creature would still have Total Concealment vs. the attack - assuming it was indeed still in that square. As long as the attacker has no reason to suspect the invisible creature moved, they're welcome to continue targeting that square (though multiple whiffs could lead them to the conclusion that it moved and they just didn't notice).

An indivisible creature gets a +20 bonus to Stealth checks, which it would indeed need to roll when it moved, as long as there were creatures nearby that might be able to hear or otherwise detect the movement. An enemy whose Perception beat its Stealth check would be able to pinpoint the square it moved to, and copy/paste the first paragraph.

There are rules for Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, and Blindsight for detecting creatures found here. Basically, a creature with Scent can determine the presence and direction of a hidden creature, and can pinpoint the exact square if they are next to it. A creature with Tremorsense can pinpoint the exact square of a hidden creature as long as it's touching the ground (or in the water for aquatic creatures with tremorsense). Blindsense automatically pinpoints the location of a hidden target, provided it has line-of-effect. No Perception checks are needed for these senses to work as stated. All three of these senses are still unable to actually see an invisible creature, and still have a 50% miss chance when attacking one. A creature with Blindsight, however, treats anything hidden/invisible as if it weren't.


Nym Moondown wrote:
I would really appreciate not only your personal ideas and interpretations but also quotes from authors/Paizo or directly from rules.

I'm not really sure what you're looking for then. The actual written rules are freely available (you can find the universal monster rules for the various exotic senses right here) and anything more than a verbatim quote will be our own interpretation.

Nym Moondown wrote:
By rules to use Stealth he has to have cover/concealment and not to be perceived. While invisible he has total concealment

You can stop right there. Invisibility gives total concealment, therefor you have concealment and can use stealth.

Nym Moondown wrote:
What about if other people have scent, tremorsense, blindsense and blindsight?

Scent - a creature with scent will know if the invisible character is still within range, can take a move action to determine the direction to the invisible creature, but can only locate the exact square if they're within 5 feet. It should be noted that a creature with scent will usually need to know which scent they're looking for; if they don't, then the presence of any other scent could throw them off since they don't know which one belongs to the invisible character they're searching for.

Tremorsense - automatic detection if you're in contact with the ground and within range. Stealth and invisibility are useless against it unless you can fly too.

Blindsense - automatic detection, but doesn't negate concealment. So long as the creature has line of effect to you, you're detected. Cover still works for hiding against blindsense since it can break line of effect, but invisibility doesn't.

Blindsight - like blindsense, but also negates concealment.


Dasrak wrote:
Tremorsense... Stealth and invisibility are useless against it unless you can fly too.

I don't think so. Tremorsense doesn't give you any clearer insight than Scent does. Your target with Temorsense knows exactly where you are, but you still have Total Concealment while Invisible: you get your 50% Miss Chance. Your target doesn't get his Dex Bonus to AC, so you still get your Sneak Attack Damage.


Thanks all.

You could replay that invisibilty misleads sight, and not hearing. So, from Stealth description:

Quote:
Being Observed: If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth.

You could argue you cannot use stealth.

But the next line is:

Quote:
Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.

What does it mean? That if I get cover/concealment (being invisible or not) I can use Stealth?

Why "most creatures"?

@Dasrak: Sometimes authors write their opinion/interpretation or evene a direct specification about a subject on forums...or I have been missing an errata...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Yes, if you get cover/concealmeant, you can use Stealth. Unless the creature has an ability to ignore that cover/concealment.

If you are hiding in darkness but the creature has lifesight, you can't stealth from it.

If you are hiding in obscuring mist, but the creature has a Goz mask, you can't stealth from it.

If you're invisible but the creature has constant see invisibility, you can't stealth from it.

That's why it says most, because Stealth does not work against all creatures.


Well, if you're standing far enough away...


Thank you very much. :)


I just use Dampen Presence and tell people with tremorsense, blindsight/sense, and all that other shit to go f@@% themselves.


Do you think if you cast Feather Step you should be able to use Stealth against someone with Tremorsense?

Feather Step wrote:

You allow the target to step lightly across snow, mud, loose sand, etc.

without sinking in and having his movement slowed. While the actual weight of the target isn’t changed, he steps as lightly as if he had no weight at all. The target can even tread across a pressure plate without setting it off. All attempts to use Stealth while under the effects of the spell receive a +2 circumstance bonus.
Tremorsense wrote:
A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.


hehe, you know what defeats Temorsense? Spider Climb! Or sometimes even just a Monkey Fish Spell, which gives you a Climb Speed.

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