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Organized Play Member. 26 posts (201 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 1 alias.

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So I've had a lot of frustrations with P2e when it comes to the rules. Some things are just unclear but with careful reading you can figure out. But other things are debatable. And still others are actively unclear to everyone. Yet we don't get rule clarifications. And it's not at all clear that Paizo has tried to identify all these and fix them in the next edition.

A minor examples:
What exactly is immune to bleed damage? Is a living tree immune (is sap blood)? And if we are to figure it out based solely on "As such, it has no effect on nonliving creatures or living creatures that don’t need blood to live", why do some creatures (e.g. iron golem) specifically list it? And do vampires "need blood to live"? Heck, are vampires "alive"?

A more troubling (if less common) example:
How the heck do golem immunities work? There are tons of threads on this, and no one seems to know. Golem immunities have a massive number of issues:

  • Say I'm attacking an iron golem with a spell that does area acid damage. If the golem is in that area, is it targeted? My reading of https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=289 is that it is not. But I think RAI are that it is affected? This is important because the golem special (harm, slow, etc.) trigger when "Any magic of this type that targets the golem..."

  • If I target an iron golem with an acid spell that needs a basic reflex save, does that golem just take 6d10 damage with no save? I think that's RAW.

  • If I target an iron golem with a spell that needs an attack roll to do acid damage, do I need to hit it or is targeting it enough?

  • If I target an iron golem with a sword that has a rune that does acid damage, do I need to roll to hit to do 6d10 damage? To do the sword's damage?

  • If a dragon breaths acid on an iron golem, is that a magical ability?

  • If a Copper dragon attacks an iron golem with its claws, is that a magical ability? I mean it has the trait "magical", so yes? But I assume RAI is no. Same thing with magical weapons, right?

  • If a Copper dragon attacks an iron golem with its bite, is the acid damage that is part of the bite magical?

  • If a caster turned into a dragon with Dragon Shape breathes on an iron golem with acid damage, is that a magical attack? Same question with the claw and bite (note the claw, bite, and breath weapon might easily each have different answers).

  • What happens if you hit an iron golem with non-magical fire? Non-magical acid? I think RAW it just does normal damage. Seems odd that magical fire heals them, but fire harms them? And they have no resistance to non-magical fire, right?

  • An iron golem takes only 2d8 (rather than 6d10) damage from "area" attacks. in the monster description ("harmed by acid (6d10, 2d8 from areas and persistent damage)"). But "If the golem starts its turn in an area of magic of this type or is affected by a persistent effect of the appropriate type, it takes the damage listed in the parenthetical." Does "area" in the description refer to an AoE attack or only if it "starts its turn in an area of magic of this type"? Both things?

    Druid turns into a copper dragon using a 6th-level Dragon Form. It attacks an iron golem with its bite. Does it need to make an attack roll? If so, what damage does it deal on a crit?

    Next round Druid breaths acid on the iron golem. Does the golem need to make a save? If so, how much damage does it take on a critical failure? A critical success? A success? Heck, I'm not even sure what happens on a failure!

    Alchemist throws a lesser acid flask at the iron golem. Does he need to make an attack roll? If he hits, how much damage does he do? If he fails, how much damage does the splash do?

    Druids *are* going to turn into dragons to fight a golem if they can. This should be clear. Alchemists are going to throw acid vials at iron golems. This should be clear. I don't think any of it is. And I think there are plenty of threads, here and other places, to make that obvious.

    Basically speaking I wish 2e had had some better editing. But stuff will get through. What I'd really like at this point is if Paizo would dedicate one person to at least tracking all the rules issues and maybe even providing answers. Or maybe fixing them in the upcoming rules updates. My sense is Paizo is making pretty good money right now. Please support the community by addressing those ongoing rules issues.

  • Hi folks,
    In P2e, is there any spell/cantrip/item that would speed up the process of copying books or other texts?


    So, per the feat (above) the trigger is when "A creature within your reach uses an auditory effect, manipulate action, or move action; makes a ranged attack; or leaves a square during its move action."

    Further, from the second link "All speech has the auditory trait".

    So whenever an opponent talks to someone else, they provoke from someone with Courageous opportunity (assuming the other conditions, when aren't trivial for most bards, are met)? That seems RAW but likely not RAI?

    Can the bard "counter performance" work against demoralize?

    Demoralize says: "Attempt an Intimidation check against that target's Will DC."

    Counter Performance says "You or an ally within 60 feet rolls a saving throw against an auditory or visual effect".

    Does the attempt against the target's DC count as a save?

    I'm guessing not as it not causing the roll of a die, but the whole DC thing seems like just a mechanical alternative that wasn't intended to have game effect. So I thought I'd check. (Plus counter performance is so rarely useful, sorta sucks for it to not work).

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    One thing that has been bothering me, is that there is no real FAQ for the 2e rules. And there are certainly some places where it would be useful.

    I'm proposing a crowd-sourced FAQ. I've only just started, but am hopeful others might be interested in contributing. I thought about doing it on a wiki (wikidot or something) but I think that creates a significant barrier for entry. My goal isn't to figure out what the answer *is* to each question. Instead what I'm trying to do is link to the relevant resources (rules, discussions, etc.) and identify consensus.

    So I've created a Google document with an introduction and just one question asked and answered as an alpha version of such an FAQ. What I'm looking for from this group is:
    * If anyone has feedback on the format or structure or anything like that.
    * Others willing to edit.

    If you'd like to edit, just reply to this thread with a Google email address you'd be using and mention one or two questions you'd be planning on adding to the FAQ.

    I reserve the right to make final decisions but hope and expect I won't have to. If this really takes off I'll open a slack or something for discussion, otherwise I imagine this thread will be enough.

    Crowd Sourced FAQ.

    I'm playing a tiny caster (sprite) with a corgi familiar mount. The mount is, per the Sprite rules, small.

    Here's what I think is true:

  • Unmounted I can share a space with a character. In doing so, I could cast a touch spell (probably including magic weapon if they knew what was up) on them.
  • Mounted, I couldn't cast a touch spell on an ally without moving some. We can't end (and thus can't start) a turn in an ally's space because the corgi is small and so can't share a space with a PC (unless they are huge I guess...).

    So questions:

  • When I "command a mount" that is my action and all the commanded actions happen at once. So I cannot do something like "Corgi, go into that space 5' away, let me cast my spell and then get out". Not as 1 action and not as 2 actions from the mount. Agreed? The rules on this aren't hugely clear but I'm pretty sure that's what's going on.
  • Dismount, as written, dismounts the character into a different space. Which makes sense for small and larger creatures. But RAW, it looks like my sprite can and must dismount into another space? So as written, I think the sprite could dismount, cast the touch spell, and stay in that space (as tiny characters are allowed to do).

    Whole thing seems weird, so I'm confirming I have the rules correct.

  • I'm planning on playing a Sprite bard for Strength of 1000s. I'm normally quite the min/maxer, but I've decided to go a different route and I'm a bit worried I've gone too far down that route. It's a big party (probably 6 players).

    My concern is that I'm planning on having stats of 8, 14, 12, 16, 10, 18. It makes sense for the character (even a STR of 8 seems like a lot for a tiny character), but wow, does it make for a horrible AC. I'd rather not wear armor with that 8 STR (penalties to everything) so I'll probably have an AC of 15 at level 1. That seems really scary in 2e--feels like I'll get critted every round if anyone chooses to get to me. I'll be mounted on a familiar corgi, so in theory I could give up AC. Or I could even imagine working toward medium armor and just living with all the penalties (he calls himself a knight, so why not?)

    Other thoughts:
    * Occult spells seem like fun.
    * Counter Performance seems crazy good. I don't know why I don't see much discussion of it.

    Rules questions
    * Should a Maestro with Counter performance have 1 or 2 focus points? Pathbuilder puts it at 2.
    * A tiny heavy crossbow does full damage but has a bulk of 1/2 normal?

    Advice questions:
    * Am I crazy playing a character with such a poor AC in 2e?
    * Any other thoughts on the character?

    Hi folks,
    Can magic missile target a hidden creature?
    "... toward a creature that you can see"

    Hi folks,
    The rules for flourish are "You can use only 1 action with the flourish trait per turn."

    If you flourish as a single action, then ready, your reaction happens on a different turn. Can you use the flourish action as part of that reaction?

    I'm trying to find a character that can focus mostly on providing buffs to the party--ideally without too much in the way of spells. Basically a military leader. The Marshal archetype seems focused on this and seems decent at it. But what would go well with it as the actual class?

    Been thinking bard could work. Swashbuckler might do it, but Paladin seems even better?

    Basic idea: Fairly young and gifted low-ranking officer who retired after the war. Basically a good leader and okay military person. Would prefer little in the way of spells and probably lighter armor, but both are negotiable.

    Likely using the additional archetype option.


    Wasn't sure if this was a rules question or advice.

    Is there any way, item, feat, etc. to add the mount trait to an animal companion that doesn't have it?

    How many free hands do your need to climb? To hang on a wall? Does that change if your have a climb speed?

    Say a character wanted to climb 10 feet and fire a bow while on a wall. Do the rules clarify how that would work?

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    I know we've got the errata. But I'm so used to 5e where the rules questions largely get answers from the involved staff. Here it feels like the rules questions have yet to really be addressed. No FAQ, not much of anything. Pathfinder 1e seems to have a bit more even.

    Anyone know if this is likely to change?

    Quick question: You can take multitalented even if you already have another archetype dedication. But does taking it prevent you from taking another archetype later? Seems weird, but RAW that's how I'm seeing it.

    If I understand correctly, focus spell feats seem to fall into two categories:

  • Those that you can take without taking any other focus spells (for a Ranger "Gravity weapon" or "heal companion" and grant you 1 focus point
  • That that require you have taken a prior focus spell (e.g. Animal Feature) and grant an extra focus point (up to 3).

    My issue:
    If you take 2 of the first type, you still only have one focus point. Why? Just seems like a weird penalty for taking a lower-level ability.

  • If I understand correctly, focus spell feats seem to fall into two categories:

  • Those that you can take without taking any other focus spells (for a Ranger "Gravity weapon" or "heal companion" and grant you 1 focus point
  • That that require you have taken a prior focus spell (e.g. Animal Feature) and grant an extra focus point (up to 3).

    My issue:
    If you take 2 of the first type, you still only have one focus point. Why? Just seems like a weird penalty for taking a lower-level ability.

  • So I've only looked closely at the Ranger because I'm going to be playing one, but I'm finding archetypes to be stronger than the Ranger class at a lot of what I'd call Ranger things. I find that frustrating.

  • Cavalier gets animal companions that increase in power two levels before the ranger. Yes, Ranger companions get their edge, but cavalier mounts get more flexibility in using their "free" action once mature plus a size adjustment if needed (which is relevant to my character). On the whole I'm finding that my ranger archer who is doing every possible animal companion option is better off taking the cavalier archetype than using their own class feats (mostly because it frees up some higher-level feats where I need them...). That seems unwise.
  • The Scout dedication feat (level 2) is just strictly better than a 4th level ranger feat (or maybe the same, I really can't tell).

    It seems like poor design when an option available to everyone is better than the class abilities that do the same thing. Does the "only one archetype at a time" thing address this in some way?

  • I'm seeing the following at 9th level for rangers: "You’ve practiced your techniques to make them harder to resist. Your proficiency rank for your ranger class DC increases to expert." But I don't see anything about spell DCs or attack rolls going up. The become "trained in primal spell attacks and spell DCs" when they get their first spell. Does that never go up again?

    I'm planning on playing a goblin archer for my first 2e game. I expect we'll do levels 1 to 10. I'm looking at magic items and starting to suspect being an archer is a bit of a trap.

  • Damage is a bit lower (need DEX and STR and only get half STR to damage).

  • You run though a ton of ammo at low levels (ammo isn't recoverable, 50 arrows is, I believe 5 bulk and you are probably shooting 2 or 3 per round as a ranger or monk). If you are going on an expedition and expect to hit 10 encounters, you're gonna run out of arrows fast and then a pure archer is useless.

  • Special materials for bows are very expensive for a long time (4 GP per arrow for cold iron and silver, 140 gold per arrow for Adamantine and they break on use). The blanches do exist and save money but take 2 actions.

  • I'm very confused how magic bows and magic arrows interact. Trying to get that figured out in the rules forum. But it seems that firing a low-grade cold iron arrow from a very magical bow doesn't work?

  • 1) It appears as if a Shuriken and a Long sword both cost 40 GP to make cold iron? And a single arrow costs 4GP?

    2) Is it the case that all arrows are destroyed after or do they just become non-magical. I'm finding the errata hard to parse. I'm also struggling with what is destroying an adamantine arrow head (if in fact it is destroyed).

    3) If you use a magic bow to fire a magic arrow, you generally get the effects of both.

    4) You have very little motivation to get higher-grade materials for your magic arrows because you generally aren't putting property runes on ammunition (cost too much).

    5) With a returning rune you could throw the same weapon a lot of times in a round (3 at least, more if you have some way to attack twice with one action or something).

    If I've got that right, low-level archers *really* struggle with having arrows that do the right type of damage--they just cost too much for only being able to make 10 attacks. High-level ones can pretty much use the low-grade materials (and so have plenty of arrows) because they don't need the higher grade (generally).


    Say you wanted to retrain a feat and you now meet the requirements but didn't when you took it. So a level 1 feat (say) that required you be trained in some skill, but you weren't trained until level 3. Or if you take Adopted Ancestry at level 3, can you retrain your level 1 ancestry feat for that race?

    If you were playing a ranger, would you take the ranger companion or the cavalier one? I'm playing a goblin archer who would like to use their companion for a mount at least some of the time and expect to be indoors (abomination vaults).

    My thoughts:

    And I think the birds can wear barding, it just slows them down. Seems a bit weird, but there you are.

    A ranger's base companion has a power (can use the hunter's edge, precision in this case) that the cavalier's lacks. There are feats that can advance them at levels 6, 10, and 16.

    A cavalier's base companion has a power that other companions not until the first advancement. They advance at levels 4, 8, and 14 (exactly the same advancements).

    So depending on what you want to do the ranger's and cavalier's have pros and cons until level 4.
    Levels 1-3 both have pros and cons.
    4-5 the cavalier is better (ranger's still gets an advantage but it's significantly eclipsed by the upgrade, (+1 str, dex, con, wis, +1dX damage vs +1d8 damage once/round).
    6-7 the ranger's is (strictly) a bit better.
    8-9 the cavalier's is better.
    10-13 the ranger's is (strictly) a bit better.
    14-15 the cavalier's is better.
    16+ the ranger's is better.

    This would be fine, but a ranger can easily be a cavalier. The cavalier one costs a 2nd level feat instead of a 1st level one, but the 2nd level feats largely suck my character ranger, so probably interchangeable.

    Thoughts? Is it reasonable to retrain all the time to make this work "optimally" at given level?

    I really don't like that a "living, advancing" character can be worse than one you'd just write up on the fly for a game. I have similar issues with feats that just give you more options for feats later--you're losing something for now to get something for later. That's not a horrible thing in life, but it's really annoying to me at least...

    New to the game...

    For flanking

    flanking rules wrote:

    When you and an ally are flanking a foe, it has a harder time defending against you. A creature is flat-footed (taking a –2 circumstance penalty to AC) to creatures that are flanking it.

    To flank a foe, you and your ally must be on opposite sides of the creature. A line drawn between the center of your space and the center of your ally's space must pass through opposite sides or opposite corners of the foe's space. Additionally, both you and the ally have to be able to act, you must be wielding melee weapons or be able to make an unarmed attack, you can't be under any effects that prevent you from attacking, and you must both have the enemy within reach. If you are wielding a reach weapon, you use your reach with that weapon for this purpose.

    As far as I can tell:

    *Even if your hands are full (say with a bow) you can still make an unarmed attack.
    * Nothing says you have to use the weapon that meets those flanking rules to get the bonus.

    As such, can't archers generally flank just fine?

    Hi folks,
    Undead have the following trait: "Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."

    Mind Probe has the following School: "School divination [mind-affecting]"

    So "all mind-affecting effects" would seem to rule out Mind Probe working on an intelligent undead. But I can't tell if the list in parenthesis is meant as a complete list, or some examples, or something else.

    So does Mind Probe work on a vampire?


    Hi folks,
    How does flame strike interact with an unattended object?


    Flamestrike wrote:

    A flame strike evokes a vertical column of divine fire. The spell deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6). Half the damage is fire damage, but the other half results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks.


    Damaging Objects wrote:

    Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object’s hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.

    Do objects take full, half, or no damage from the "divine power" part of the attack?

    Hi folks,
    Warding armor says:

    Once per day as an immediate action, the wearer of warding armor can activate it to end all active challenge, judgment, and smite abilities affecting her.

    Smite and challenge only affect one person, judgement affects ""enemies". Does that utterly end the existing judgement on every person or just the wearer of the armor?

    Say you are playing a high-level character that isn't a fighter or otherwise have access to weapon training (the fighter class feature). What is the fastest one could gain access to the ability? Mostly thinking about Gloves of Dueling.

    I asked about Planar Aegis here, but I'm now looking for a more generic answer. What is the default if a spell doesn't have a "spell resistance" line?

    In the case of Planar Aegis, it's a personal spell, so it kind of makes sense, but the spell ends up impacting enemies, so...

    Does Spell resistance apply to the damage dealt by Planar Aegis?

    And isn't Planar Aegis just strictly better (more damage, more options) than fire shield?

    The spell seems almost too good. Especially if it ignores SR.


    I'm trying to understand how a Cloak of the Mantra Ray works.

    1. Does the wearer still have use of his arms? It says "The wearer can release his arms from the cloak without sacrificing underwater movement if so desired." It also says that the wearer "...appears nearly identical to a manta ray (as the beast shape II spell, except that it allows only manta ray form)." Can he swing a sword or is he beast shaped into a manta ray? With beast shape the answer would be no, but the "appears nearly identical" and the ability to release arms would seem really strong evidence that arms can be used to make weapon attacks.

    2. If the answer to 1 is "yes", what happens with the sting? I'd think it would count as a secondary attack, but the "using his highest melee attack bonus" makes me feel that perhaps it doesn't count as a secondary attack.

    3. The wearer also gets low-light vision, yes?

    4. Anyone know why you get a +3 natural armor bonus? The beast shaping into a medium creature should give a +2. Seems weird. Is this a holdover from 3.5?

    Hi folks,
    This is mainly about fighting underwater, but it relates to flying too.

    If you don't have a swim speed and you aren't on the ground, you make a swim check to see how well you can fight. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/wilderness/terrain/aquat ic-terrain/

    Does that swim check for the table entry "Successful Swim check" require a move action?

    The "action" part of swim is a lot less clear than fly. http://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRulebook/skills/swim.html

    "Action: A successful Swim check allows you to swim a quarter of your speed as a move action or half your speed as a full-round action."

    I'm looking for a 1-level dip that gets all of the above to be trained. And ideally also has something else interesting going on (aristocrat works, but I'd like something more interesting/useful). Character has high Int and Str, 12s for Dex and Con, 10 for Chr, and 7 for Wis.

    Extra points social skill bonuses, full BAB and 2 or more good saves.

    From Battle Herald: " bard and battle herald levels stack to determine the bonuses provided by inspire courage."

    The bard and battle herald get improved inspire courage at really different rates.

    The bard is at +1 at 1st level, +2 at 5th level, +3 at 11th level and +4 at 17th level.

    The battle herald is +1 at 1st level, +2 at 4th, +3 at 7th and +4 at 10th.

    What is the inspire courage bonus for a level 5 bard/ level 1 cavalier/ level 2 battle herald?

    Consider a Cavalier 5/Battle Herald 5 that is a Variant Multi-Classed (VMC) bard.

    What is that character's effective level for inspire courage? RAW, I'd say it's 11 (VMC bard is 10-4 or level 6, Battle Herald is 5, so 11). But that seems a lot for a 10th level character. By level 13 it would be 18.

    I just can't figure out what was intended with double counting levels like this.

    If I'm playing an int-based caster, what is the caster stat used for evangelist boons? What is the caster-level?


    Hi folks,
    I'm looking for a 1 level multiclass dip that A) provides heavy armor proficiency B) would go well with a strength-based melee occultist (so high int). I'm happy to do almost any class. Don't care about BAB at all. Would ideally get proficiency in perform as a class skill while we are at it. Anything else is gravy.

    I'd love something like investigator, but I don't think there is an archetype that gets heavy armor.

    I know swift spells don't. I assume, by the same rule, immediate spells don't.

    But what about swift and immediate spell-like abilities?

    "A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity."

    Spell-like abilities are here: https://roll20.net/compendium/pathfinder/Monster%20Rules:Spell-Like%20Abili ties#content

    Hi folks,
    I'm interested in picking up favored terrain for my character, mostly for roleplay reasons. I'd like to not multiclass. I'm playing an occultist.

    I'm aware of being able to do variant multiclassing to ranger or cavalier (order of the green). I'd like the power much earlier than those would allow. It would be sweet if it scaled, but I don't need it to.


    I'm trying to figure out exactly how long a celestial creature's "smite evil" lasts and who it affects.

    "The creature may smite evil 1/day as a swift action (it adds its Cha bonus to attack rolls, and a damage bonus equal to its HD against evil foes; smite persists until the target is dead or the celestial creature rests)."

    If the celestial creature smites (evil) creature "A", does the bonuses from the smite apply to other evil creatures until A dies? Or does it only affect creature A? The wordy is wacky, in that there is no clear "target" for smite evil until we discuss persisting. I'm assuming you have to declare "I activate smite vs. creature A". But even range isn't obvious.

    The best I can conclude is that you *only* are meant to get that damage against that one creature, and only if they are evil. Is that right? Just wierd that they couldn't (and haven't yet) gotten the wording clear on this.



    The key questions are:

    • * What is the DC of the spell cast? Does it use the familiar's stats? If so, which one? If not, does it use the master's stats?
    • * What about feats like spell focus? If the master has the feat, does the familiar's spell use it?

    My sense is that as a meta-magic feat, everything is as if cast by the master *other* than attack rolls, just like any other meta-magic feat. But I'd like to see what others think.

    On a related note, any idea why the "list" formatting option doesn't really work?

    Hi folks,
    For above-ground long-distance travel, the spell nature's paths can be really handy for a party moving through forest etc.

    Is there any spell or fairly cheap item (few 1000) that would help a whole party moving on a road or underground for long distances?

    This spell seems pretty horrid as a combat healing spell. It can be used by any living creature (including the bad guys unless they are undead) and requires a standard action. Not a horrible spell outside of combat, but not much better than mass cure light wounds (which is a reasonable combat healing spell). It is pretty nice with respect to undead, but I'm not even certain it does anything if you cast it on top of a vampire (they need to move into it). The no save/no spell resistance makes it okay if you can get them into the space somehow.

    Basically it just seems fairly useless. I'm going to get stuck with it (healing witch patron) and hoping that someone has an idea how to use it.

    It seems really really odd that the Lillend has no DR. Anyone know if that's an error? Are there other outsiders of similar power without DR?

    I only know of one way to get an additional patron, getting an impundulu as a familiar. Are there other ways?

    My confusion with the spell is that there is an initial save and then one on each round.

    If the initial save succeeds, does the spell just end or does the spell jump? If the initial save fails, I believe it can take no action on its next turn, and then rolls a save for the turn after that.

    But if it jumps, it seems like the creature would be making a save to be able to act on the current turn.

    That reading seems unlikely, but I can't figure anything else out. Help?

    Also, does the spell end if the current target dies?

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    Hi folks,
    Do we have example high-level characters anywhere? It seems like it would be a nice way to see if I'm getting the various rules correct.

    Hi folks,
    I'm playing a witch with a low wisdom and a really good healing skill and I'd like to get treat deadly wounds to take less time. The only thing I can find is the medicine subdomain power (Blessed Surgery). And I'd be tempted to multi-class to cleric just for this, but it's wisdom based.

    Are there any other ways of speeding up treat deadly wounds? Some magic item? Some way to use Int toward the domain power? Anything?

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