Courageous opportunity: attack when the opponent says something?


Rules Discussion


https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1646
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=439

So, per the feat (above) the trigger is when "A creature within your reach uses an auditory effect, manipulate action, or move action; makes a ranged attack; or leaves a square during its move action."

Further, from the second link "All speech has the auditory trait".

So whenever an opponent talks to someone else, they provoke from someone with Courageous opportunity (assuming the other conditions, when aren't trivial for most bards, are met)? That seems RAW but likely not RAI?


I guess that depends on if you consider nonmagical speech an effect


I'd personally apply RAW on this one. First, speaking is not common, especially once the combat has started. If the Bard wants to speak with the enemy to try to trigger their Courageous Opportunity I'd ask for an action and a Deception check, to avoid the Bard player to abuse the ability. And I find the concept of being the only one entitled to speak quite funny.

I don't find the concept imbalanced and I find it funny so I'll go with RAW unless the Bard player really finds me a combo to force enemies to speak all the time.


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Bon Mot can induce an optional retort.
Roaring Applause on all but a critical success.


Bon Mot is a good combo, but it still asks for a check and for the enemy to decide to get rid of it. So it doesn't feel out of bounds to me.
Roaring Applause generate Manipulate actions on a failure. And it doesn't generate Auditory effects per se. Auditory trait specifies that you need the sound to carry for it to mean something, which is definitely the case for speaking but not for laughing (I can see someone laughing and get it without having to hear it). So there's some GM adjudication here.


As a GM I woud not resist responding to a Bon Mot much. I think it is just part of the role playing.


Gortle wrote:
As a GM I woud not resist responding to a Bon Mot much. I think it is just part of the role playing.

It really depends on the situation to me. When you have someone at melee range you don't necessarily lose an action to speak. There's also a question of psychology: Humans should respond most of the time, but a lot of creatures would be fine living with it or having other reactions (I definitely see Ogres answering Bon Mots with violence).

Anyway, I don't find it broken, even when used in conjunction to Bon Mot. So I'd allow it. I even find the idea quite interesting, it's a strange way of fighting but I'd certainly love to have such a character at my table.


Sure, I guess you can get an "AoO" against enemies in reach who speak, but I would also only expect this to work like once per combat unless you have something compelling them to speak.

After the first time they're going to realize "Hey, when I spoke just now that fellow yelled and was suddenly able to strike me". They're going to refrain from doing things they know will provoke.

Considering you're going to have one reaction a round and enemies should catch on relatively quickly that they can provoke an "AoO" from you for speaking should lead (IMO) to this occurring a very limited number of times. Similar to how a spell casting enemy that has a fighter next to them should realize after the first AoO for casting that it isn't wise to stand next to them and cast.


Claxon wrote:

After the first time they're going to realize "Hey, when I spoke just now that fellow yelled and was suddenly able to strike me". They're going to refrain from doing things they know will provoke.

Fortunately most monsters have a very short life expectancy. Learning from their mistakes is not a privilege many get.


I mean first time in combat. Intelligent creatures should be able to work out after getting hit 1 to 2 times at most when speaking that they should stop speaking. And other intelligent creatures that observe this should be able to figure it out too.


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I would make a distinction between something having a trait and something being an effect with a trait.

So while typical combat banter would have the auditory trait, it isn't a mechanical effect, and therefore wouldn't be a valid trigger for Courageous Opportunity.

Something like Bon Mot, the rebuttal of Bon Mot, Demoralize, and other such things would qualify as an auditory effect. They have the auditory trait and cause an effect mechanically.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've seen bon mot used dozens of times.

I've never seen a retort.

Sovereign Court

"Effect" is defined rather vaguely. The glossary talks about effects being the result of an ability. The main section on page 453 though says that anything you do has an effect. It then continues to talk on page 456 about actions and other abilities that generate effects.

Combat banter isn't an action; it's not even a free action. But talking is something you do; you speak and the result is speech. Is it an ability?

I dunno. I think it's kinda stretching it and I don't think it's how Courageous Opportunity was intended.

Now, retorting to a Bon Mot (although rare) would actually result in a mechanical effect, so there I think it makes sense that it applies.


Ravingdork wrote:

I've seen bon mot used dozens of times.

I've never seen a retort.

True, but the fact that it rarely happens doesn't mean it couldn't.

Most enemies probably don't care to spend the action to remove the will save penalty, and smart players wouldn't give them the chance hitting them with the bon mot followed by another player's turn to capitalize on the penalty.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It sounds like by RAW, it does provoke. (I don't like the 'not an effect' defense since I would consider everything with a trait an effect by default.) However, this is definitely not how I am going to play it, not for mechanical but for RP reasons. There are many fights that involve villain grandstanding or even some measure of 'informative' banter and I would not want to curtail this fun gameplay component for mechanical reasons (as would surely happen once enemies notice speaking nets them a sword to the face).

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