I've looked at a Corgi mounted Sprite, and it creates tons of issues with the Corgi size. I was looking at a martial, and I was unable to attack anyone as I have no reach and the Corgi forbids me to get into the same space than a creature.
I think the Corgi idea was a good one, it's super funny. But in actual play, it creates big rule issues.
Yeah, that does indeed look like RAW. And RAW it doesn't really work.
So probably best to create a ruling that does work.
Some easy fixes that I can think of:
* allow mount movement and PC attack actions to happen simultaneously - allowing the mount to move into the enemy space, the PC to take actions while in that space, and then the mount to continue its movement back out of the enemy space.
* allow using touch range spells on an ally (and an ally only) while mounted and in an adjacent square of the ally. The idea being that the ally isn't going to be actively avoiding you and will meet you halfway at the border of their space.
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Hello,
I'm playing a tiny caster (sprite) with a corgi familiar mount. The mount is, per the Sprite rules, small.Here's what I think is true:
Unmounted I can share a space with a character. In doing so, I could cast a touch spell (probably including magic weapon if they knew what was up) on them.
Mounted, I couldn't cast a touch spell on an ally without moving some. We can't end (and thus can't start) a turn in an ally's space because the corgi is small and so can't share a space with a PC (unless they are huge I guess...). So questions:
When I "command a mount" that is my action and all the commanded actions happen at once. So I cannot do something like "Corgi, go into that space 5' away, let me cast my spell and then get out". Not as 1 action and not as 2 actions from the mount. Agreed? The rules on this aren't hugely clear but I'm pretty sure that's what's going on.
Dismount, as written, dismounts the character into a different space. Which makes sense for small and larger creatures. But RAW, it looks like my sprite can and must dismount into another space? So as written, I think the sprite could dismount, cast the touch spell, and stay in that space (as tiny characters are allowed to do). Whole thing seems weird, so I'm confirming I have the rules correct.
RAW, you're correct on all accounts. A Tiny creature mounted onto a Small one means they cannot reach or touch any other creature unless they are also Tiny, or Huge+ in size (and you still need to be in the same square as them). They also couldn't simply move into a square and remain in it long enough for you to cast a spell since you would be shunted back to the last legal space you could occupy the instant their movement ends.
This is a conundrum, but I'm pretty sure it's intended, since mounting doesn't adjust your reach whatsoever, even if you aren't a Tiny creature. The benefits of a Tiny creature are the ability to squeeze into areas larger creatures can't, as well as simply hide in other character's squares/belongings if needed (if a Familiar can do it, and you're the same size as it, then by the transitive property, you can too). Bonus points for being able to hide in ways others can't.
My advice? Acquire the Reach Spell feat. This alleviates this whole conundrum, even though you don't have many actions left to command a mount (an Independent mount alleviates some of that problem as well).
As a side note, the Corgi mount is one of the strongest feats in the game. It gives you the benefit of having a mount (a free move action every round) without paying the 4 feats to actually have a mount. There are many builds that benefit from it, Maguses love it. So I kind of like the Reach issue as it compensates how good the Corgi mount is.
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As a side note, the Corgi mount is one of the strongest feats in the game. It gives you the benefit of having a mount (a free move action every round) without paying the 4 feats to actually have a mount. There are many builds that benefit from it, Maguses love it. So I kind of like the Reach issue as it compensates how good the Corgi mount is.
Not exactly free it has to use its only familiar ability on independent so won't have other good stuff like fast movement, cantrip connection and familiar focus.
As a side note, the Corgi mount is one of the strongest feats in the game. It gives you the benefit of having a mount (a free move action every round) without paying the 4 feats to actually have a mount. There are many builds that benefit from it, Maguses love it. So I kind of like the Reach issue as it compensates how good the Corgi mount is.Not exactly free it has to use its only familiar ability on independent so won't have other good stuff like fast movement, cantrip connection and familiar focus.
Well, you can always choose subpar options. Independent on the Corgi is what creates a potential imbalance and why I think the Reach limitation is not too bad.
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The Corgi is very powerful, but only if you play to its strengths, not its weaknesses.
Build an archer or a caster (without touch spells) and it is awesome. You get a free move every round from level 1. Thats so good, no one else can do that till level 4 with a Mature Animal Companion. But you can get your mount into every dungeon and even most palaces.
Every now and then yes it will cost you a few extra actions if you need to get off your mount to do things.
If you do want to use melee weapons, mounted or not, then go for something with reach. There are good options, like the long spear, scorpion whip, or glaive.
The Corgi is very powerful, but only if you play to its strengths, not its weaknesses.
Build an archer or a caster (without touch spells) and it is awesome. You get a free move every round from level 1. Thats so good, no one else can do that till level 4 with a Mature Animal Companion. But you can get your mount into every dungeon and even most palaces.
Every now and then yes it will cost you a few extra actions if you need to get off your mount to do things.
If you do want to use melee weapons, mounted or not, then go for something with reach. There are good options, like the long spear, scorpion whip, or glaive.
Clearly. Archers and casters benefit from it, but they move less than melee martials so I don't think it completely imbalances the game outside some very specific builds. Melee martials lose 5ft. of reach, I think it's balanced as a free move is awesome on a melee martial.
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Being able to have a mount ( and because so powercreep ) almost for free by lvl 1 is far beyond imbalance.
No its not. Its handy thats all. Its not worth a +1 to hit. Not everything has to be the same. Sprite have real weaknesses. Corgis are soft and require investment to be more durable. They can't attack which has real implications in game. The mounted Sprite is the one character that will not generate a flat footed for enemies by flanking. That is unless you are doing something bizare like trying to use a reach weapon, which has got other problems.
Being able to have a mount ( and because so powercreep ) almost for free by lvl 1 is far beyond imbalance.
I completely agree.
Paying a feat like "using reach weapons" is nothing, compared to the benefits, especially comparing it with a normal ancestry/class
I completely disagree. Using a reach weapon is a heavy cost, as it reduces your damage die. But on top of that, most reach weapons are strength-based ones and you are playing a sprite. If you start looking at Dexterity-based reach weapons, the damage dice becomes ridiculous. And when you take into account the lack of bonus to damage (outside Thief Rogues), it kills the advantage. So you need to build a Strength-based Sprite, which is super costly.
For me, the Corgi-mounted melee martial is a very interesting build, but not one that completely overshadows other builds.As a side note, I consider the concept of mount to be the overpowered one. It has an extreme impact on the 3-action system.
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If you are riding your familiar into melee range and then staying there, it is quite likely that your familiar is going to die.
Arguing about whether the Corgi is overpowered or not doesn't really belong in this thread.
The answer to the OP is take the Spell Delivery master ability if you want this style of play (tiny character riding a small mount but delivering touch spells). You can cast the spell and without needing to command the mount, it'll move two actions and deliver it for you -- since it's small it doesn't need to be in the same space. You can imagine the corgi booping someone with his nose.
It's a good benefit if that's how you're playing and will probably be more effective for your second familiar ability than Independent. You can just command it to move when you need it to do so otherwise. If you want both, you'll probably need to be a witch, wizard, or grab the Familiar Master dedication.
Or as noted above, get Reach spell.
Druids also have enhanced familiar as a feat.
Also the wording on spell delivery isn't... Clear.. I'd wish it had the "as part of casting this spell command your familiar" line.
But I hope I'm wrong ! I'd love to use that to reposition effectively with my sprite druid !
It has equivalent wording. It is just split up a bit more.
If your familiar is in your space, you can cast a spell with a range of touch, transfer its power to your familiar, and command the familiar to deliver the spell. If you do, the familiar uses its 2 actions for the round to move to a target of your choice and touch that target.
Having to spend an additional 3rd action to command the familiar again would have to be worded differently.
And how many examples of class features, feats, and other abilities that combine multiple actions together as subordinate actions into one activity do we have?
Or are you going to argue that transferring the power of the spell to the familiar is also an additional and separate action? Because that would relegate the entire familiar ability to only be usable for 1-action spells.
Mechanically speaking, it's like having the reach feat, which works with a familiar.
It is somewhat similar to Reach Spell, but Reach Spell can be used on spells other than touch range spells. And it doesn't put my familiar in danger. Using Spell Delivery is the only time I have ever been tempted to cast Phase Familiar.
So while the effect is somewhat similar, it isn't identical. And you can't use the similarity to expect that the action cost is going to be identical as a result. Though to point out more similarity, I do have to spend an additional action after the spell is cast and delivered to move Farien somewhere safer - or else spend an additional familiar ability on Independent.
Spell Delivery says: Command the familiar to deliver the spell. If you do, the familiar uses its 2 actions for the round to move to a target of your choice and touch that target.
No it doesn't. Quote it right.
You cast a spell and then command a familiar.
As part of the same activity. Because it is all part of the same sentence. Cast the spell, transfer the spell's effects, command the familiar. One event.
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Spell Delivery says: Command the familiar to deliver the spell. If you do, the familiar uses its 2 actions for the round to move to a target of your choice and touch that target.No it doesn't. Quote it right.
You cast a spell and then command a familiar.As part of the same activity. Because it is all part of the same sentence. Cast the spell, transfer the spell's effects, command the familiar. One event.
If it was given an action cost, I'd absolutely agree with you... but it's not. As it wasn't listed with a cost, it's not an action. As it's not an action, it can't be an action that contains other actions. That said, it's really unclear, because it's also not well-worded to go the other way.
If your familiar is in your space, you can cast a spell with a range of touch, transfer its power to your familiar, and command the familiar to deliver the spell. If you do, the familiar uses its 2 actions for the round to move to a target of your choice and touch that target. If it doesn’t reach the target to touch it this turn, the spell has no effect.
- "cast a spell with a range of touch" is a normal action that you can take, and should be read as such, because, again, there are no actions listed here. If you're not taking the action in and of itself, then it has no specified action cost, and having an action cost of "none" would clearly OP. The only thing that could make sense here is that you must take the Cast a Spell action as normal, as a requirement of the rest of it all... but it's worth noting that even this was not clear, and is only concluded because all other possibilities would be absurd.
- "transfer its power to your familiar" is... normally something that one cannot do. If one could do it, it wouldn't be clear what kind fo an action it would take. As such, lacking any other source of information with which to characterize this, we must default to "it just works organically as part of the move, with no additional action cost".
- "command the familiar to deliver the spell" This is the messy one. We can interpret this as being an invocation of the "command a minion" action applied to your familiar but the wording isn't perfect for that. Further, the previous thing was a "naturally occurs as a result, with no additional cost" and there's no direct indication that this is any different. In the flip side, the next line is "if you do" which suggests (but doesn't explicitly confirm) the idea that this would be an action that you'd have been taking as an action. The statement overall also does not clearly state what happens if you cast the spell, transfer the effect, and then don't give the command... suggesting that the command is non-optional and therefore built-in.
Basically... it's a mess, and would have been better written differently to make one interpretation or the other more explicitly clear. Maybe there were line count issues? I'd believe line count issues. If I was running a game, I think it would depend on the player in question. If they're a ruthless optimizer (as I often am) I'd say that the command is a separate action, and that if you cast and then transfer the spell and don't give the command, then the spell collapses and you get nothing for your trouble. If they're someone who's less on the optimizing side and more on the "I like helping!" side, I'd probably give them a break and say it was baked in.
TLDR: Stop! You're both right!
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Basically... it's a mess, and would have been better written differently to make one interpretation or the other more explicitly clear. Maybe there were line count issues? I'd believe line count issues. If I was running a game, I think it would depend on the player in question. If they're a ruthless optimizer (as I often am) I'd say that the command is a separate action, and that if you cast and then transfer the spell and don't give the command, then the spell collapses and you get nothing for your trouble. If they're someone who's less on the optimizing side and more on the "I like helping!" side, I'd probably give them a break and say it was baked in.
As a GM (instead of as a character with a familiar), I would always run it as part of the same activity. I don't think it is because of line count issues. I think it is a combination of not having any of the familiar abilities formatted in a way to have defined actions, and historical understanding from PF1 edition.
For balance, the opportunity cost is already high enough to justify the lower action cost compared to Reach Spell. I had Eoran point that out from Witch perspective already - and that is one of the lowest cost scenarios. For a Druid it is even more costly since it would take a higher percentage of familiar abilities (or an additional class feat), and if the familiar dies it is going to be gone for the rest of the adventure. For a Sprite trying to use this to get around the somewhat borked rules of touch spells with tiny size it is even more needed.
But yes, I can somewhat see the ambiguity - I just also see it as a too bad to be true ruling to make it cost an additional action to use the Spell Delivery familiar ability.
A few thoughts from the OP:
* I struggle with the idea a sprite, mounted on a corgi, cannot touch anyone (ally or enemy) in combat. A medium person on a large mount can. As can a large person on a huge mount etc. It's just beyond weird. Two sprites mounted on corgis couldn't touch each other even if they wanted to. Yes, it's a game, but at some point the game needs to make sense. This "can't touch each other" thing is past that point for me.
For me in this situation for a house rule I'd just say it took an extra action to strech across and leave it at that. But unless you are playing a party of Sprites it should be rare.
* I agree, the spell delivery requires the caster to take the command animal action. It says it right in the description of spell delivery " and [b]command the familiar[b] to deliver the spell. If you do, the familiar uses its 2 actions for the round to move to a target of your choice and touch that target." The familiar doesn't have 2 actions unless you use that. So yeah, casting a 2 action spell in this way takes 3 actions and leaves your familiar in a potentially bad place.
But you only need to do it for actual touch spells so your familiar doesn't actually move if the target is adjacent. If the target is further away it takes a move action (with the sprite riding) so it loks like what every one else does.
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But you only need to do it for actual touch spells so your familiar doesn't actually move if the target is adjacent. If the target is further away it takes a move action (with the sprite riding) so it looks like what every one else does.I'm sorry, not quite clear on your point. Are you saying that you can use spell delivery without doing the command mount action if the mount doesn't need to move?
I'm not seeing that as an option as written. So while it would be nice for the character I have, I think that would be in the realm of a (reasonable) house rule.
If you're saying something else, could you clarify? I'm not quite following you.
Thanks!
No I'm not saying that. Just pointing out that it takes you one extra action to cast a touch spell at range.
Whether you yourself move, or you add metamagic Reach, or you command a familiar with spell delivery to do it. It only costs the caster one action.
Yes it cost the familiar two actions. That's fine. The Sprite is riding the Corgi.
Yep at a range of adjacent it still costs the Sprite one action where as a normal size caster doesn't require it.
Not seeing it is a problem that needs a fix. Sprite owners should be aware and build accordingly.