How will you track bulk after the new backpack errata?


Advice

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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm curious to know how you will track gear and bulk at your table in light of the new backpack errata that says 2 of the 4 bulk in your backpack doesn't apply against your encumbrance limitations.

Are you going to have all of your players write two equipment sections on their sheets, one for in-backpack and another for out-of-backpack gear? Mark which items are bulkless thanks to the backpack? Simply have people with backpacks mark off 2 bulk (or 1 bulk for those with adventurer's kits)? Treat everyone's bulk limits as two higher? Or something else?

The errata is nice, but as written, it just strikes me as unduly cumbersome.

Any advice on how best to manage it all (as a player or GM)?


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Really this errata just formalizes the way I was treating bulk anyhow. On my character sheets I make I separate my gear into Consumable, Held, Worn, and Stowed. I take it as an assumption that all of my Stowed gear, which is the stuff in my backpack, gets set aside for things other than encounter mode-style walking.

Liberty's Edge

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I'll just have it add +2 Bulk to people's carrying capacity. That seems simplest and involves the least math.


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Well as a player, I'll just have those 2 bulk be things I will always have on me. The adv kit, or tool kits/etc I won't use inbattle, stuff like that. or it'll account for emergency items (ropes, grappling things, etc)

Otherwise, would just add 2 functional bulk to things. I don't care enough to be so very granular to make sure its prefectly correct. Close enough will work since Bulk is fairly nebulous anyway.


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Perpdepog wrote:
Really this errata just formalizes the way I was treating bulk anyhow. On my character sheets I make I separate my gear into Consumable, Held, Worn, and Stowed. I take it as an assumption that all of my Stowed gear, which is the stuff in my backpack, gets set aside for things other than encounter mode-style walking.

Same. Sometimes with Horse or Wagon on top.

So in many cases, I don't have to even deal with individual weights. If I have enough stuff to be encumbered, I know I can just drop the pack if combat starts, and I'm back to Unencumbered with my pre-selected & weighed combat-required gear still on me. If I'm close to limit and come across new loot I want to take, I'm adding it to the Pack/Horse/Wagon.

I don't even see how the Errata changes much: as long as you have more than 2 Bulk in pack before and after adding/taking item, you are just adding/subtracting the item weight exactly as before. Only if it crosses 2 Bulk threshold is there any distinction. And regardless of weight tracking, location tracking was/is needed for extra action to access backpack contents... With action economy as dynamic as it is, ignoring that is unbelievable IMHO, I'd rather give Quickdraw out for free..


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Don't really have to do anything different tracking-wise because items that are in a character's backpack already need to be clearly marked so the player knows which things they have to spend actions taking off their backpack in order to get for use.

So it's just a minor change to the process of adding up total bulk: start with items inside the backpack, subtract up to 2 from that result, then add the rest of the character's gear.


This is a sign from pathfinder's pantheon.

They must have read the thread about paladins and clerics deity's favored weapon, and because of the bulk issues ( or to find common ground ) decided to give 2 extra bulk to let them carry the weapon with them during their Journeis.

The gods have spoken.

Alleluja Alleluja!

I guess I will simply add 2 bulks to a character, regardless what the character choose to take ( even a fishing rod would be ok ). Smooth modify.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
I'll just have it add +2 Bulk to people's carrying capacity. That seems simplest and involves the least math.

This.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

I don't think there was a way for Paizo to win here.

They can't just "add 2 to your maximum bulk" because that would allow people to just carry another halberd, which doesn't fit in the backpack. At the same time, tracking two pools of items is a pain as well.

Also, I'm sure that some of the errata is constrained by what fits on a page without causing a text reflow, moving things from page to page.

That said, I think in practice this will be just fine. Most characters - especially higher level ones - will have a bunch of stuff such as waterskins which will be in the backpack, at which point simply adding "backpack bonus -2" to your list of things carried will work properly.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The problem is solved if players use this simple system.

In their list of equipment, they should write:
- "backpack w/" followed by a list of the items in the backpack and a subtotal of bulk for that backpack, from which they can subtract 2 - or 1 bulk, really, since the backpack itself weighs one bulk.
- "satchel w/" + list
- "bandolier w/" + list (for items that are readily available to hand)
- "belt pouch w/" + list

This is what I naturally did with my characters, following that practice from PF1. There are some circumstances where it is important to know what is stored where.

Sovereign Court

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Well if you want to be all technical about it, you have a couple of layers of packing:

* Bandolier for immediate access to tools. For example for your medkit. A bandolier entirely devoted to one toolkit removes the need to spend an Interact action to draw/sheathe things from that toolkit when using it. I'm not sure how many (1/2/many) bandoliers you can wear.

* Regular access: belt pouches, bandoliers not fully devoted to one toolkit, weapon sheathes and all. Drawing or sheating something takes 1 Interact action.

* Deep stowage: taking something out of a backpack takes an extra action because you first need to take off the backpack. In return, you get a bulk discount.

---

In practice:
- Pick one toolkit to go in the bandolier.
- Pick 2 bulk of items you won't hastily need to go in the backpack.
- Everything else goes in belt pouches, sheathes, or if not suitable for those, in the backpack.

So practically, as long as you can pinpoint 2 Bulk of items that you're fine putting in deep storage, you can just increase your bulk limit by 2.


as a player, i just note next to my stuff where each is (b) is backpack, (s) is sheaths, (p) is pouches (including bandolier).

as a gm, i'll just ask from the players to note what stuff are stowed and what are accessible, "where" is not as important as "how many actions to pull them out".


shroudb wrote:
as a player, i just note next to my stuff where each is (b) is backpack, (s) is sheaths, (p) is pouches (including bandolier).

But what if you also need to note what type of physical damage they deal?


Anguish wrote:
Most characters - especially higher level ones - will have a bunch of stuff which will be in the bag of holding.

Fixed it for you :)

In other words, I can't fathom waterskin bulk to be even a trivial issue for high-level characters...


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Anguish wrote:

I don't think there was a way for Paizo to win here.

They can't just "add 2 to your maximum bulk" because that would allow people to just carry another halberd, which doesn't fit in the backpack.

As long as your character carries at least 2 Bulk worth of items that fit into the Backpack (which in practice will always be the case), you can totally simplify this to "add 2 to your maximum bulk"

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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Today I learned some people don't meticulously track what's stowed in each container for their character. Going to need a moment.


Sabazius wrote:
shroudb wrote:
as a player, i just note next to my stuff where each is (b) is backpack, (s) is sheaths, (p) is pouches (including bandolier).
But what if you also need to note what type of physical damage they deal?

I don't usually note that in the equipment section but on my "attacks" section.


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Anguish wrote:
They can't just "add 2 to your maximum bulk" because that would allow people to just carry another halberd, which doesn't fit in the backpack.

There's nothing in game stopping you from putting halberds in your backpack, so I'm not sure what you mean here. Neither method of figuring out the new errata touches/changes that. If your DM wasn't allowing 4 javelins in your belt pouch before this, then adding 2 to the bulk shouldn't change things.

PS: PF1 did something similar by adding +1 to your str for carry but never explicitly required that extra weight be in the backpack. In a similar way, the +2 for a DC 15 profession porter check didn't require any special method for gaining it.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So it seems to me that different tables are going to run this a wide range of different ways. What I am mostly wondering now is how I should reflect this change on my character sheets (if at all).


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

We've always tracked what us where. Easy notation

Backpack
- candle
- mega sword weekly
- peanut butter sandwich
- gameboy


The character sheet I use has a box for "carried" and "stored". For things in the backpack, I'll likely just use the "stored" field unless I need that for another purpose (pack animal). In which case I'll probably just list them as zero bulk and under the backpack. Maybe just including their build in the item name/description field.

EDIT: Or I'll list the backpack as having -1.9 bulk, who knows :-P.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

My character sheets very much resemble the official NPC stat blocks which, to my knowledge, almost never differentiate between stowed and unstowed items. Furthermore, in all the games I've ever played in, no one has ever bothered to differentiate the matter as anything except flavor. Pretty much everything was assumed to be stored in an easy-to-get place and was just a move action away (unless some rule said otherwise, such as when concealing an item with Sleight of Hand).

The fact that P2E makes it so you need additional actions to get something out of your pack seems to be a level of complexity/micromanagement more than is really needed. Complexity that doesn't really enhance the game in some way seems like a waste of everyone's time.

In any case, if you guys have any suggestions on how to represent this on an NPC-like stat block while still largely making it look like an official-ish stat block, I'd appreciate it.

I've noticed that the official stat blocks have a very specific pattern to how they list things. (For example, armor and weapon rune names are ignored when determining the alphabetical order of items, and most everything is listed in the singular, even when there are multiple such items.)


if having to spend actions to switch equipment/item configuration isn't "a level of complexity/micromanagement more than is really needed", why is having that include the simplest and lowest-cost version of "that's not as easy to reach"?

Seems a strange place to draw the line to me.


Ravingdork wrote:

My character sheets very much resemble the official NPC stat blocks which, to my knowledge, almost never differentiate between stowed and unstowed items. Furthermore, in all the games I've ever played in, no one has ever bothered to differentiate the matter as anything except flavor. Pretty much everything was assumed to be stored in an easy-to-get place and was just a move action away (unless some rule said otherwise, such as when concealing an item with Sleight of Hand).

The fact that P2E makes it so you need additional actions to get something out of your pack seems to be a level of complexity/micromanagement more than is really needed. Complexity that doesn't really enhance the game in some way seems like a waste of everyone's time.

In any case, if you guys have any suggestions on how to represent this on an NPC-like stat block while still largely making it look like an official-ish stat block, I'd appreciate it.

I've noticed that the official stat blocks have a very specific pattern to how they list things. (For example, armor and weapon rune names are ignored when determining the alphabetical order of items, and most everything is listed in the singular, even when there are multiple such items.)

Add a special ability to your statblock at the end like this:

Backpack Paradozen keeps their 5 notebooks, Pathfinder 2 CRB, Bestiary, Baby Bestiaries 1&2, GM Screen, and 4 of 6 sets of dice in their backpack. Their weapons are kept sheathed on their belt when at-hand but usually left at home, and other gear is stored in the many pockets of their greatcoat.


Wheldrake wrote:

The problem is solved if players use this simple system.

In their list of equipment, they should write:
- "backpack w/" followed by a list of the items in the backpack and a subtotal of bulk for that backpack, from which they can subtract 2 - or 1 bulk, really, since the backpack itself weighs one bulk.
- "satchel w/" + list
- "bandolier w/" + list (for items that are readily available to hand)
- "belt pouch w/" + list

This is what I naturally did with my characters, following that practice from PF1. There are some circumstances where it is important to know what is stored where.

You know what? I'm stealing this idea. I sometimes get lots of adventure clutter and this seems handy and a natural extension of how I do stuff.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

For keeping everything in a npc style stat block just either have two lines (unstowed or stowed) or have items inside other items in square brackets.

I.e longsword, hide armour, backpack [rope, fancy clothes, leather straps]

But in general you might struggle, npc statblocks work well for npcs who generally dont have a multitude of stuff not directly involved with their primary purpose.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Or just ignore this rule on backpacks as you have been anyway. If your group doesn't want the mechanical downside to apply I don't see why they should get the mechanical upside.

This isn't a dig, just cant formulate a way to say it that doesn't sound like one.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Does anyone know of an officially published stat block in which they list containers or the items within a container? I'm curious to know how it has been done before, if it has been done at all.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The pregens make a distinction between stowed and not stowed items.


Wheldrake wrote:

The problem is solved if players use this simple system.

In their list of equipment, they should write:
- "backpack w/" followed by a list of the items in the backpack and a subtotal of bulk for that backpack, from which they can subtract 2 - or 1 bulk, really, since the backpack itself weighs one bulk.
- "satchel w/" + list
- "bandolier w/" + list (for items that are readily available to hand)
- "belt pouch w/" + list

This is what I naturally did with my characters, following that practice from PF1. There are some circumstances where it is important to know what is stored where.

I have been sorting gear by how it is carried for years. For example, when I adapted Aubrin the Green from Ironfang Invasion to PF2, I wrote her gear as:

Items (encumbered)
backpack: antidote (2), minor elixir of life (5), oil of potency (2), holy water (2), scroll of heal (2nd), scroll of neutralize poison, scroll of protection, healer's kit (b1), crafter’s book (bL), torch (bL)
belt pouch: flint and steel, holy symbol of Cayden Cailean, tankard, 97 sp
sheathed: dagger (bL), longbow (b1) with 20 arrows (b2L), 20 cold iron arrows (b2L), 1 sleep arrow, and 1 vine arrow, longsword (b1),
worn: +1 padded armor (bL), cloak of elvenkind (bL), waterskin of mead (b1)
Notes: Aubrin usually leaves her backpack at home in Phaendar, and grabs it for emergencies since its bulk encumbers her.

I have not yet adjusted it with the errata, which would make the backpack and waterskin lighter. The weight that Aubrin easily carried in PF1 became too bulky in PF2, so I added a note that she often left her backpack behind. I used the notation (b1) for bulk 1 and (bL) for light, though I should invent something more elegant. Maybe the pound sign #, but #1 looks like number 1 rather than bulk 1. How about 1# for 1 bulk and 0.1# for 1 light?

Under that notation, it would be:
Items (3.4# out of 5.9#)
backpack (2.6# -> 0.6#): antidote (2) 0.2#, minor elixir of life (5) 0.5#, oil of potency (2) 0.2#, holy water (2) 0.2#, scroll of heal (2nd) 0.1# , scroll of neutralize poison 0.1#, scroll of protection 0.1#, healer's tools 1# , crafter’s book 0.1#, torch 0.1#
belt pouch (0#): flint and steel, holy symbol of Cayden Cailean, tankard, 97 sp
sheathed (2.5#): dagger 0.1#, longbow 1# with 20 arrows 0.2#, 20 cold iron arrows 0.2#, 1 sleep arrow, and 1 vine arrow, longsword 1#
worn (0.3#): +1 padded armor 0.1#, cloak of elvenkind 0.1#, waterskin of mead 0.1#

Her encumbrance is reduced by 2.9 bulk, which is significant because 6 bulk encumbers her.


I usually list whats where but not the totals (though I personally tend to know them).

as a sidenote: This kind of makes me want to rexamine my Churri/Mutagen Alchemist with a whip and a tower shield.


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I'm not even sure where the impulse to use NPC statblock style for PCs comes from... Most PC character sheet I've seen are quite different and more detailed than NPC statblock (all the more so in 2E), with inventory sections usually a delineated table/column(s) which can be easily subdivided at existing line breaks and subtotaled however is convenient.

Anyhow, carrying a pack that makes you encumbered is quickly remedied by action to remove/drop it, if you don't just ask an ally with excess capacity to carry it for you (or strap to horse etc). Either way seems normal expectation if encumbrance is to actually be relevant to game i.e. you may make choices to minimize it at least situationally, but it is impactful and felt.

I've never felt sorting gear for accessibility of worn VS packed was an imposition, if anything it felt like I was engaging with how the character deals with world: Making my own choices to have optimal worn equipment so even if my pack is lost I have my core tools. It also impacts what is "visible" to NPCs, pack contents being hidden. That's usually done ahead of time, and usually gives me pre-crafted options to adjust to situation (i.e. dropping entire pack, or tossing it to ally or hooking it on horse etc). Not doing that would just lessen immersion for me, reducing it to flat video game.

Of course, eventually with Bags of Holding encumbrance from items in it becomes minor or non-issue, although action distinction in accessing items remains... Probably some preferring Bag of Holding built as Backpack or otherwise worn, VS putting BoH inside Backpack which adds a further action, although that is also manageable if you account for it ahead of time.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Quandary wrote:
I'm not even sure where the impulse to use NPC statblock style for PCs comes from... Most PC character sheet I've seen are quite different and more detailed than NPC statblock (all the more so in 2E), with inventory sections usually a delineated table/column(s) which can be easily subdivided at existing line breaks and subtotaled however is convenient.

I like modeling them after the NPC stat blocks because everyone everywhere is already familiar with them. It makes for a great common baseline. If I go to 10 tables, I might find 10 (or more!) different types of character sheets being used. Finding something from one sheet to the next can be a real pain since layouts can differ dramatically. However, if its modeled after the official stat block, then not only do I know where everything is at, but when I present it to a new GM he already knows where to look for whatever he needs to know.

That consistency makes life a lot easier for a great many people in the circles I frequent.

Also, math is harder for some than others. My sheets tend to be less intimidating for some people because they don't have to worry about how it all comes together. They just check the stat block for the final value. For people with bad eyesight or reading disorders, having only the final values listed can make for less clutter, less confusion, and quicker in-game response times.

There are drawbacks though. Finding out why a number is what it is without the breakdown in front of you can be slightly more tedious. Also, one consequence for me is that I'm often the one who gets stuck doing all the paperwork when it comes to formatting our group's character sheets (every new character, every level up). I think only one other player in my group honestly tries to emulate my formatting on his own while the other 5 simply hand me their scribbled stats and notes while saying something to the effect of "please check work and make look nice."


It would be easier if all this was not tied to a single item like the Backpack. Simply a rule that says something along the lines of "if your character has appropriate containers (backpack, belt pouches, sheaths, quivers, and/or bandoliers) for all of your carried equipment, your maximum allowed bulk is increased by 2". This abstracts everything and makes it simpler, as well as giving a reason for buying appropriate containers. But of course, there will be arguments about how much a given container can hold for those groups that prefer to track such things in detail I guess, so can't please everyone.

Why are there no Quivers?


Darkbridger wrote:

It would be easier if all this was not tied to a single item like the Backpack. Simply a rule that says something along the lines of "if your character has appropriate containers (backpack, belt pouches, sheaths, quivers, and/or bandoliers) for all of your carried equipment, your maximum allowed bulk is increased by 2". This abstracts everything and makes it simpler, as well as giving a reason for buying appropriate containers. But of course, there will be arguments about how much a given container can hold for those groups that prefer to track such things in detail I guess, so can't please everyone.

Why are there no Quivers?

I have been pretending that "sheath" also means quiver. The recent errata said nothing about quivers.

I was a little uncertain about the purpose of all the belt pouches, sheaths, quivers, bandoliers, and sacks. I decided that Paizo forgot to write down a rule that a character cannot carry an unlit torch by just stuffing it under a belt. Instead, all loose items must be in a container or worn or held in hand. Thus, I told my players that they need enough sheaths for their weapons, separate sheaths (quivers) for their ammunition with no limit on arrows per quiver, belt pouches for all vials and small items intended to be in easy reach, bandoliers for all toolkits intended to be in easy reach, waterskins for water, and sacks and backpacks for everything else. By that reasoning, everything is already in a container except the containers themselves and the clothing and armor worn on the body.

Giving an extra 2 bulk for putting things into containers when things always have to be put into containers would make no sense. The directly-attached stuff such as backpacks, clothing, and waterskins are unusually low in bulk given how heavy they are in the real world.

Sovereign Court

Mathmuse wrote:
Darkbridger wrote:

It would be easier if all this was not tied to a single item like the Backpack. Simply a rule that says something along the lines of "if your character has appropriate containers (backpack, belt pouches, sheaths, quivers, and/or bandoliers) for all of your carried equipment, your maximum allowed bulk is increased by 2". This abstracts everything and makes it simpler, as well as giving a reason for buying appropriate containers. But of course, there will be arguments about how much a given container can hold for those groups that prefer to track such things in detail I guess, so can't please everyone.

Why are there no Quivers?

I have been pretending that "sheath" also means quiver. The recent errata said nothing about quivers.

I was a little uncertain about the purpose of all the belt pouches, sheaths, quivers, bandoliers, and sacks. I decided that Paizo forgot to write down a rule that a character cannot carry an unlit torch by just stuffing it under a belt. Instead, all loose items must be in a container or worn or held in hand. Thus, I told my players that they need enough sheaths for their weapons, separate sheaths (quivers) for their ammunition with no limit on arrows per quiver, belt pouches for all vials and small items intended to be in easy reach, bandoliers for all toolkits intended to be in easy reach, waterskins for water, and sacks and backpacks for everything else. By that reasoning, everything is already in a container except the containers themselves and the clothing and armor worn on the body.

Giving an extra 2 bulk for putting things into containers when things always have to be put into containers would make no sense. The directly-attached stuff such as backpacks, clothing, and waterskins are unusually low in bulk given how heavy they are in the real world.

My take on this is:

- Most characters have only two hands, so they need to stow some stuff.
- The thing you use for stowing (bandolier > sheath/pouch > backpack) determines how quickly the item can be accessed. Note that belt pouches list how many items of what bulk they can hold. Backpacks are less discriminating but slower to access.
- Containers that carry weight very efficiently (backpack) tend to have slower access time.

So yeah, if you want to do it by the book, you really do need to list what is in what container.

(I'm much more casual than that though.)


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
So yeah, if you want to do it by the book, you really do need to list what is in what container.

I suppose that's no worse than the magic item slot system from 1st Edition.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
So yeah, if you want to do it by the book, you really do need to list what is in what container.
I suppose that's no worse than the magic item slot system from 1st Edition.

It is no worse than 1st edition in any respect. It was commonly ignored there too, but what you had stored where was meant to be a consideration for retrieval.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Malk_Content wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
So yeah, if you want to do it by the book, you really do need to list what is in what container.
I suppose that's no worse than the magic item slot system from 1st Edition.
It is no worse than 1st edition in any respect. It was commonly ignored there too, but what you had stored where was meant to be a consideration for retrieval.

I don't recall seeing too many rules about mundane storage in 1E. Can you cite a couple of examples?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
So yeah, if you want to do it by the book, you really do need to list what is in what container.
I suppose that's no worse than the magic item slot system from 1st Edition.
It is no worse than 1st edition in any respect. It was commonly ignored there too, but what you had stored where was meant to be a consideration for retrieval.
I don't recall seeing too many rules about mundane storage in 1E. Can you cite a couple of examples?

Sure. How an item is stored dictates whether or not retrieving it provokes. Normally things do provoke so knowing whether your wand of cure was in your pack or in a sheath could literally be a life or death concern. How many scrolls you had in your scroll case determined the amount of actions required etc


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Malk_Content wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
So yeah, if you want to do it by the book, you really do need to list what is in what container.
I suppose that's no worse than the magic item slot system from 1st Edition.
It is no worse than 1st edition in any respect. It was commonly ignored there too, but what you had stored where was meant to be a consideration for retrieval.

Pathfinder 1st Edition made it automatic: "Price: This value is the weapon’s price in gold pieces (gp) or silver pieces (sp). The price includes miscellaneous gear that goes with the weapon, such as a scabbard or quiver." (Source: Weapon Qualities)

Pathfinder 2nd Edition appears to want the player to purchase each scabbard and quiver separately. I wonder why the developers added that extra step when their goal was to shorten character creation. Or did I misread the PF2 rules?

Another annoying aspect of doing it by the book is that the book does not mention how to do it. Weapons, ammunition, flasks and vials, tools and kits, candles, chalk, cookware, etc. need to be stowed, but does a mug need to be stowed or can it be tied to a belt like many Renaissance festival players wear them? Can an unlit lantern be hooked over a belt or must it be stowed in a backpack? Does a waterskin need to be stowed? How about a coil of rope? A scroll case is a container but does it attach to a belt like a belt pouch or ought it be stowed, too? Can a religious symbol be worn on a cord around the neck, or on a bracelet, or must it be stowed? Does a musical instrument like a guitar have a strap for easy carrying or do we pretend that a sheath can hold it?

The Gear descriptions on pages 287-292 say that backpack, bandolier, clothing, sack, and satchel can be worn. Saddlebags and tack are worn by a mount. On the other hand, many other descriptions leave out the worn aspect:
Belt Pouch: A belt pouch holds up to four items of light Bulk.
Chest: A wooden chest can hold up to 8 Bulk of items.
Material Component Pouch: This pouch contains material components for those spells that require them. Though the components are used up over time, you can refill spent components during your daily preparations.
Scroll Case: Scrolls, maps, and other rolled documents are stored in scroll cases for safe transport.
Sheath: A sheath or scabbard lets you easily carry a weapon on your person.
Waterskin: When it’s full, a waterskin has 1 Bulk (errata: Light bulk now) and contains roughly 1 day’s worth of water for a Small or Medium creature.

I don't think a character can wear a wooden chest, but its description is almost identical to the belt pouch.

And in many cases this does not matter. An Interact action is required to put a religious symbol in hand regardless of whether it was stowed in a belt pouch or hanging by a cord. Table 6-2, Changing Equipment, on page 273 mentions that detaching an item strapped to you is a full Interact action. Only the backpack is a special case: "Retrieving an item stowed in your own backpack requires first taking off the backpack with a separate Interact action."

Finally, a few pages mention something called "pockets." They are often a metaphor for a coin purse.
Page 61: "Bringing in lawbreakers lined your pockets."
Page 64: "You eked out a living by picking pockets on the streets of a major city, never knowing where you’d find your next meal."
Page 179: "You might pick pockets or trade in illegal goods."
Page 180: "A client with deep pockets might even hire a team of rogues for a particular heist, each specializing in a different racket, in order to cover all the bases."
Page 189: "Whether from jury-rigged magic items, stolen magical essence, or other means, you have a contingency in your back pocket for desperate situations."
Page 253: "If the object is in a pocket or similarly protected, you take a –5 penalty to your Thievery check."
Page 264: Pickpocket feat 1, "You can Steal or Palm an Object that’s closely guarded, such as in a pocket, without taking the –5 penalty."
Pages 287 and 290: "When you carry the tools from place to place, you keep many of the components handy on your person, in pockets or bandoliers."
Page 435: "These groups vary wildly in size and purpose—from local thieves’ guilds interested only in filling the pockets and bellies of their members, to far-reaching, international commercial conglomerates with their own private armies."
Page 596: Pocket Stage, "This item appears to be a miniature replica of a theater. It includes a small pocket full of minute set dressing and costumed paper dolls."


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Just to repeat the obvious:

Since just about every character will have 2 bulk worth of stuff that fits in the backpack, there is zero reason to make this any harder than it needs to be.

And it doesn't need to be hard at all.

Just go with Strength+7 Bulk instead of Strength+5. No need for any cluttery book-keeping. Easy.


"just about every character" appears to be 2/5ths based on my current sampling.

Perhaps when each character has accumulated around 2,000 more coins worth of treasure that will be a different case.


Zapp wrote:

Just to repeat the obvious:

Since just about every character will have 2 bulk worth of stuff that fits in the backpack, there is zero reason to make this any harder than it needs to be.

And it doesn't need to be hard at all.

Just go with Strength+7 Bulk instead of Strength+5. No need for any cluttery book-keeping. Easy.

I can think of one reason or the cluttery bookkeeping. Characters focused on roleplaying carry more stuff than characters focussed on combat.

Consider the standard adventurer's pack, supposedly at bulk 2. It consists of a backpack (no bulk when worn), bedroll (0.1#), two belt pouches (worn), 10 pieces of chalk (0#), flint and steel (0#), 50 feet of rope (0.1#), 2 weeks' rations (0.2#), soap (0#), 5 torches (0.5#), and waterskin (0.1#). Total 1 bulk.

A pure-combat character searching to increase available bulk would toss out a week's of rations, 4 torches, and the waterskin. Nor would he buy cookware (2#), crowbar (0.1#), fishing tackle (1#), hourglass (0.1#), merchant's scale (0.1#), religious text (0.1#), spyglass (0.1#), ten-foot pole (1#), or writing set (0.1#). He would also shun a backpack, because if something could not be drawn in a single Interact action, then it would be too slow to use on combat.

The roleplaying characters, in contrast, would carry cookware for a tasty meal, a crowbar to open doors, fishing tackle to extend their supplies even though a Subsist check does not require it, and so on. They load themselves down for versimitude. And they use backpacks to handle the extra load.


Well, a crowbar is the thievery tool for those who use athetics.

A fishing line could be useful if your DM asks you how you want to gathered food ( imagine after a shipwreck on an island with no food ).

All this stuff could be used by both roleplayers and min max characters.

The question is

"How much time do you want to invest in stocking stuff and to manage it? "


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Adventurer's packs are now 1 bulk, per the errata. Purchasing one actually nets you 1 bulk back on account of the backpack in it.

Malk_Content wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
So yeah, if you want to do it by the book, you really do need to list what is in what container.
I suppose that's no worse than the magic item slot system from 1st Edition.
It is no worse than 1st edition in any respect. It was commonly ignored there too, but what you had stored where was meant to be a consideration for retrieval.
I don't recall seeing too many rules about mundane storage in 1E. Can you cite a couple of examples?
Sure. How an item is stored dictates whether or not retrieving it provokes. Normally things do provoke so knowing whether your wand of cure was in your pack or in a sheath could literally be a life or death concern. How many scrolls you had in your scroll case determined the amount of actions required etc

It was my understanding that whether or not something provoked in P1E was based not on where or how it was stored, but on what kind of item it was. Weaponized items didn't generally provoke, but others did.


K1 wrote:

Well, a crowbar is the thievery tool for those who use athetics.

A fishing line could be useful if your DM asks you how you want to gathered food ( imagine after a shipwreck on an island with no food ).

All this stuff could be used by both roleplayers and min max characters.

The question is

"How much time do you want to invest in stocking stuff and to manage it? "

Shipwreck survival reminds me of Pathfinder Adventure Path #37: Souls for Smuggler's Shiv: "A deadly storm shipwrecks the passengers and crew of the Jenivere upon infamous Smuggler’s Shiv, an island off the coast of the jungle realm of Sargava." The ranger found food for the survivors. Except for my wife's creepy character Wealday Addams, who ate bugs.

The odd thing about stocking such stuff is that my players do it on their own initiative. They want the details for their roleplaying. And since they have fun doing that, I go along with it. One player who stocked up on cookware ended up encumbered, so I adapted the PF1 masterwork backpack for her, that the first 1 bulk in a masterwork backpack did not count toward her encumberance. She was willing to spend 5 gp for it. I was surprised that Paizo made twice that a property of the regular backpack. She recieved a refund.

Ravingdork wrote:
Adventurer's packs are now 1 bulk, per the errata. Purchasing one actually nets you 1 bulk back on account of the backpack in it.

Thank you for the reminder. I remembered the change to the waterskin but not the adventure's pack.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

Adventurer's packs are now 1 bulk, per the errata. Purchasing one actually nets you 1 bulk back on account of the backpack in it.

Malk_Content wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
So yeah, if you want to do it by the book, you really do need to list what is in what container.
I suppose that's no worse than the magic item slot system from 1st Edition.
It is no worse than 1st edition in any respect. It was commonly ignored there too, but what you had stored where was meant to be a consideration for retrieval.
I don't recall seeing too many rules about mundane storage in 1E. Can you cite a couple of examples?
Sure. How an item is stored dictates whether or not retrieving it provokes. Normally things do provoke so knowing whether your wand of cure was in your pack or in a sheath could literally be a life or death concern. How many scrolls you had in your scroll case determined the amount of actions required etc
It was my understanding that whether or not something provoked in P1E was based not on where or how it was stored, but on what kind of item it was. Weaponized items didn't generally provoke, but others did.

"If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item."


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Malk_Content wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Adventurer's packs are now 1 bulk, per the errata. Purchasing one actually nets you 1 bulk back on account of the backpack in it.

Malk_Content wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
So yeah, if you want to do it by the book, you really do need to list what is in what container.
I suppose that's no worse than the magic item slot system from 1st Edition.
It is no worse than 1st edition in any respect. It was commonly ignored there too, but what you had stored where was meant to be a consideration for retrieval.
I don't recall seeing too many rules about mundane storage in 1E. Can you cite a couple of examples?
Sure. How an item is stored dictates whether or not retrieving it provokes. Normally things do provoke so knowing whether your wand of cure was in your pack or in a sheath could literally be a life or death concern. How many scrolls you had in your scroll case determined the amount of actions required etc
It was my understanding that whether or not something provoked in P1E was based not on where or how it was stored, but on what kind of item it was. Weaponized items didn't generally provoke, but others did.
"If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item."

Thanks, but did anyone ever actually do that in the whole history of the game? Why would you?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Funnily enough when I was trying to google up the rules text there was a thread you started in which you took a weapon out of your bag and disagreed with the action cost. So yes people did it and as to why you'll have to ask your younger self.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mysm?Action-to-get-something-out-of-a-backpac k

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