Criticize my build (if you please)


Advice


I'd like to get some char-op perspectives on my build, Although it must be noted that I was strictly working under the following restrictions: Core rulebook only, No spell-casting (not even ranger/paladin casting), No (magical) crafting and no leadership feat.

Characters start at seventh with standard WBL (23500 gp)

abilities were rolled and I received the following array;

11,13,18,15,14,10

So, Here's who I put together;

Spoiler:
- neutral - human - fighter - 7

Str 21 (+2 enhancement) Hp 65 (51 rolled 7 con 7 favoured class bonus)
Dex 17 (+2 human) Ac 30 (15 touch, 22 flat-footed)
Con 13
Int 14 Fort +7 (5 base, 1 con, 1 res)
Wis 11 Ref +6 (2 base, 3 dex, 1 res)
Cha 10 Will +5 (2 base, 2 feat, 1 res)

CMB = 12 - CMD = 25 - initiative +7 - move 30

Attacks - Bastard sword - +16 - +11 - 1d10+10
- Masterwork composite(+4) longbow - +11 - +6 - 1d8+4

Special abilities: armour training 1,2, weapon training (heavy blades)
bravery +2

Feats: EWP (bastard sword) - weapon focus (bastard sword) - dodge - shield focus - iron will - weapon specialization - improved iron will- quick draw - improved initiative

Gear: +2 bastard sword, +1 heavy steel shield, +1 full plate, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armour +1, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +1, miscellaneous adventuring gear (silk rope etc.)

Skills (ranks only): K: dungeoneering 7, K: engineering 7, K: nobility 7, intimidate 7, survival 2, linguistics 1, swim 1, climb 1, handle animal 1, ride 1,

I am aware that some of my choices are suboptimal from pure min/max point of view but I'm curious as to what others would have done under the (exact) same conditions.


Well, with the fullplate you're wasting that beautiful Dex of 17. I suggest going down to a +1 breastplate. Your AC goes down to 29 but you'll be able to use your full dex for your touch AC. You can also use the 1300gp saved for some smaller items (potions, hand of the mage, masterwork backscratcher, etc).

I do like that you're using that pretty Int of yours. Knowledge: Tactics is always a useful skill.

Other than that I'd give this character the OK. Min/maxing is for chumps anyway.


ANebulousMistress wrote:

Well, with the fullplate you're wasting that beautiful Dex of 17. I suggest going down to a +1 breastplate. Your AC goes down to 29 but you'll be able to use your full dex for your touch AC. You can also use the 1300gp saved for some smaller items (potions, hand of the mage, masterwork backscratcher, etc).

I do like that you're using that pretty Int of yours. Knowledge: Tactics is always a useful skill.

Other than that I'd give this character the OK. Min/maxing is for chumps anyway.

Well actually with two increments of armour traing full-plate has a +3 max dex bonus, so I am getting full mileage out that dex.

Although that masterwork backscratcher is looking appealing now. ^_^


I would have Made a Archer Fighter.

Str: 15 (16 with lvl 4 bonus)
Dex: 18 ( 20 with human racial)
Con: 14
Int: 11
Wis: 13
Cha: 10

Gear wise id get a + 1 composite 3 longbow, +1 breast plate, Gloves of the duelist , + 1 cloak of resistance .


Stasiscell wrote:

I would have Made a Archer Fighter.

Str: 15 (16 with lvl 4 bonus)
Dex: 18 ( 20 with human racial)
Con: 14
Int: 11
Wis: 13
Cha: 10

Gear wise id get a + 1 composite 3 longbow, +1 breast plate, Gloves of the duelist , + 1 cloak of resistance .

I don't think gloves of the duelist are CRB if recall correctly.


ugg slipped my mind your right it isnt crb.
Still though archer is a very strong option as is being a crit monkey via a falchion .


Stasiscell wrote:

ugg slipped my mind your right it isnt crb.

Still though archer is a very strong option as is being a crit monkey via a falchion .

Archer's are a strong option to be sure, but I'm not terribly fond of crit builds reliance on not being unlucky. 15-20 is a 25% chance to crit, and if the dice are unkind, then there is nothing you can do about it.


You migth want power attack. Your ofensive would not be the better compared to a TWo hander. That is not really aproblem since you take ashield for the defense.

But you are a frontliner you need to do damage and power attack helps a lot with it.


Nicos wrote:

You migth want power attack. Your ofensive would not be the better compared to a TWo hander. That is not really aproblem since you take ashield for the defense.

But you are a frontliner you need to do damage and power attack helps a lot with it.

I would value +1 attack over +2 damage to be honest. It is attractive to a two-hander when you have a better rate of exchange, 1.5 STR bonus and slightly higher damage dice all having a cumulative effect.

I'm basically a miser when it comes to attack bonus(boni?).


You may or may not like it but power attack is one of the best feats for fighters. Even if you're one handing it's still statistically more damage nearly all the time to have power attack on then it is not to have it on. Your attack bonus should rocket past others ac at the end of low levels as well. It is one of those feats that give you enough damage to be considered a threat to be dealt with. You don't have taunts, shouts, and/or anything else like that. You have your damage and how likely they can hit you. People tend to target people they can hit and they also target people that are a threat. If you have high ac and deal low damage no one will target you. This is why I believe two handed weapons and twf shield bashing is the best melee options for a fighter. Consider putting your 17 in con and your 13 in dex. Preferably you should put that +2 in strength. The reason why I suggest con over dex is your health pool will allow you to tank those hits and at the same time give them more reason to attack you. Besides you're going to find out soon that ac doesn't scale that well when it comes to later in the game unless you really focus on it. Just make sure you don't get dominated and you should be fine as long as your health pool is high. Also consider picking up a couple potions of fly.


This is where i would have probably gone with those stats

Human Trip Fighter:

22 Str (+2 race +2 enhancement)
16 Dex +1 lvl 4
13 Con
14 Int
11 Wis
10 Cha

Hp 65, Ac 27, Fort +7, Ref +6, Wil +5
Cmb 13 (21 to trip with guisarme) cmd 26 (28 vs trip)

1st Power Attack, Weapon Focus Guisarme, Combat reflexes
2nd Dodge
3rd Iron Will
4th Weapon Spec Guisarme
5th Combat Expertese
6th Improved Trip
7th Greater Trip

+2 Guisarm, +2 Full Plate, +1 Ring of Prot, +1 Amulet of nat, +1 Cloak of Resist, +2 belt of str 1231gp remaining

Guisarme +17/+13 2d4+ 9 str, +2 spec, +1 training, +2 magic
Power Attack Guisarme + 15/+10 2d4+20
Skills (ranks only): K: dungeoneering 7, K: engineering 7, Perception 7, intimidate 7, survival 2, linguistics 1, swim 1, climb 1, handle animal 1, ride 1,
Special abilities: armour training 1,2, weapon training (Pole Arms) bravery +2

I can't promise my math is exactly right but the numbers should be close to accurate.


North Star wrote:
Stasiscell wrote:

ugg slipped my mind your right it isnt crb.

Still though archer is a very strong option as is being a crit monkey via a falchion .
Archer's are a strong option to be sure, but I'm not terribly fond of crit builds reliance on not being unlucky. 15-20 is a 25% chance to crit, and if the dice are unkind, then there is nothing you can do about it.

Only a smidgeon of damage comes from dice.

Even if you are extremely unlucky your still rocking a 2hander with power attack.

Might i suggest for feats, Ironwill, Power Attack , Combat expertise, Combat reflexes, Dodge , Mobility, Spring Attack, Lunge, Whirlwind attack

Its pretty bare bones but its versatile and makes for a good mook weed whacker .

Also if you can justify having a permanent spell cast on you as part of your gear then grab enlarge person.

Mobility, spring attack, combat reflexes and dodge are feat taxes but they arent useless. and even combat expertise can find a use.

As for gear id recomend a +1 keen falchion ,Mundane platemail , Belt of giant strength +2 , Permanent enlarge person.
you still have alot of gold left so go nuts and get whatever strikes your fancy.


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Black_Lantern wrote:
You may or may not like it but power attack is one of the best feats for fighters. Even if you're one handing it's still statistically more damage nearly all the time to have power attack on then it is not to have it on. Your attack bonus should rocket past others ac at the end of low levels as well. It is one of those feats that give you enough damage to be considered a threat to be dealt with. You don't have taunts, shouts, and/or anything else like that. You have your damage and how likely they can hit you. People tend to target people they can hit and they also target people that are a threat. If you have high ac and deal low damage no one will target you. This is why I believe two handed weapons and twf shield bashing is the best melee options for a fighter. Consider putting your 17 in con and your 13 in dex. Preferably you should put that +2 in strength. The reason why I suggest con over dex is your health pool will allow you to tank those hits and at the same time give them more reason to attack you. Besides you're going to find out soon that ac doesn't scale that well when it comes to later in the game unless you really focus on it. Just make sure you don't get dominated and you should be fine as long as your health pool is high. Also consider picking up a couple potions of fly.

I think AC scales fine.

People (not just you) make the argument that AC doesn't scale with monster attack bonus, and then turn right around and say that if you boost your AC too much monsters won't be able to land hits, and so will just ignore you since people also tend to make the (erroneous imo) assumption that if you invest in AC you somehow won't be able to deal enough damage to make monsters pay attention.

high-level AC is not about stopping every attack, because let's face it, that first attack is going to hit, it's about stopping that second, third and fourth attack.


Stasiscell wrote:
North Star wrote:
Stasiscell wrote:

ugg slipped my mind your right it isnt crb.

Still though archer is a very strong option as is being a crit monkey via a falchion .
Archer's are a strong option to be sure, but I'm not terribly fond of crit builds reliance on not being unlucky. 15-20 is a 25% chance to crit, and if the dice are unkind, then there is nothing you can do about it.

Only a smidgeon of damage comes from dice.

Even if you are extremely unlucky your still rocking a 2hander with power attack.

Might i suggest for feats, Ironwill, Power Attack , Combat expertise, Combat reflexes, Dodge , Mobility, Spring Attack, Lunge, Whirlwind attack

Its pretty bare bones but its versatile and makes for a good mook weed whacker .

Also if you can justify having a permanent spell cast on you as part of your gear then grab enlarge person.

Mobility, spring attack, combat reflexes and dodge are feat taxes but they arent useless. and even combat expertise can find a use.

As for gear id recomend a +1 keen falchion ,Mundane platemail , Belt of giant strength +2 , Permanent enlarge person.
you still have alot of gold left so go nuts and get whatever strikes your fancy.

I'm not talking about damage dice. I'm saying that if you roll a 14 or lower on your attack roll you are not even threatening a crit.

My point is that even with a 15-20 crit range you can still go entire combats without critting.

My build is about reducing variability, rather increasing it and depending on the whims of the dice.


Commoner 7. Because I wouldn't want to play in that game. Every time you play in a "low magic world" with D&D rules (or derivates), a unicorn steps on a kitten and an orphan drops his ice cream cone.


Rasmus Wagner wrote:
Commoner 7. Because I wouldn't want to play in that game. Every time you play in a "low magic world" with D&D rules (or derivates), a unicorn steps on a kitten and an orphan drops his ice cream cone.

It's not a low magic game (although I find those fun every once in a while) it's Golarion. These are self imposed restrictions because I seem to have a much higher level of system mastery and tactical awareness than everyone else at the table, and I don't want make the other characters feel useless while I rampage across the AP as a crafting summoner with leadership (or whatever).

Heck, it seems to be kind of happening with this guy, but I guess I should give some more time before I decide if that's happening.


Making a Fighter with only CRB isn't a challenge, they are only 5% off optimisation without APG, UM, UC.

You want a challenge? Play a spell caster with only the CRB. That's more of a challenge.


Simply exchanging bastard sword proficiency for power attack would make you build stronger.

Shield focus is not a very impressive feat. Even dodge is not really impressive, but it opens up some nice options and applies to touch AC. I'd consider going for TWF using a shield though, it's a very strong option.

Improved initiative and quickdraw are good to go first, but be sure that you have something good to do with that: for a tripper those feats are good, for you? Less so.

As for stats, I'd rather use your increment to raise your STR. Put your increment in DEX and you get a STR 22 and DEX 16 as opposed to STR 21 and dex 17. Is there a reason go for that DEX 17?

In general, your character will be strong in defense, but you can raise AC to impressive level just by spending a bit of gold, I think you will find yourself with a uselessly high AC.
Your damage on the other hand will be underwhelming, especially if you are set on not taking power attack (really, power attack is probably the most important feat for just about any melee, even for sword and board builds).

Also, your options are nearly non-existing: don't take it personally but I would not like to play your character, I would grow tired after a few battles. Your plan is to get in melee and simply attacking with sword and board every-single-time. You see what I mean? there is no variety in it, it may be cool to finish 4 fights in a row without ever being hit, but in the long run it gets boring.

If I were you, I'd rather try to expand my options, maybe going for archery feats (to put to good use that impressive DEX). Int 14 would also mean that you could get the trip chain, which I think is very fun to use (even if you don't get an archetype centered on using maneuver your high to hit will allow you to be pretty effective with maneuvers, especially if your campaign will feature a lot of medium creatures). Another option, still boring though, would be going for TWFing with sword and shield.


This is what I would do a dwarf fighter that is hard to hit, and loves destroying things.

Dwarf Fight Level 7:
Dolgrin Dwarf Fighter 7th
Str = 18
Dex = 16
Con = 16
Int = 13
Wis = 13
Cha = 8

Feats-
Weapon focus (dwarven waraxe)
Power Attack
Dodge
Shield Focus
Weapon Specialization (dwarven waraxe)
Improved Sunder
Greater Sunder
Combat Expertise

Gear
Adamantine Dwarven Waraxe +1 (5,380)
Full Plate +2 (5,650)
Heavy Steel Shield +2 (4,170)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000)
Ring of Sustenance (2,500)
total cost 22,700 leaving 800gp for other gear and potions

He has an armor class of 32 normally and 34 with combat expertise, great against those touch attackers.

He has options, to fight on defense, offense, or to sunder others gear like they were cheap toys. Greater Sunder and Adamantine weapons are amazing, especially in what looks like a low magic game.


Crysknife wrote:

Simply exchanging bastard sword proficiency for power attack would make you build stronger.

Shield focus is not a very impressive feat. Even dodge is not really impressive, but it opens up some nice options and applies to touch AC. I'd consider going for TWF using a shield though, it's a very strong option.

Improved initiative and quickdraw are good to go first, but be sure that you have something good to do with that: for a tripper those feats are good, for you? Less so.

As for stats, I'd rather use your increment to raise your STR. Put your increment in DEX and you get a STR 22 and DEX 16 as opposed to STR 21 and dex 17. Is there a reason go for that DEX 17?

In general, your character will be strong in defense, but you can raise AC to impressive level just by spending a bit of gold, I think you will find yourself with a uselessly high AC.
Your damage on the other hand will be underwhelming, especially if you are set on not taking power attack (really, power attack is probably the most important feat for just about any melee, even for sword and board builds).

Also, your options are nearly non-existing: don't take it personally but I would not like to play your character, I would grow tired after a few battles. Your plan is to get in melee and simply attacking with sword and board every-single-time. You see what I mean? there is no variety in it, it may be cool to finish 4 fights in a row without ever being hit, but in the long run it gets boring.

If I were you, I'd rather try to expand my options, maybe going for archery feats (to put to good use that impressive DEX). Int 14 would also mean that you could get the trip chain, which I think is very fun to use (even if you don't get an archetype centered on using maneuver your high to hit will allow you to be pretty effective with maneuvers, especially if your campaign will feature a lot of medium creatures). Another option, still boring though, would be going for TWFing with sword and shield.

I'm not sure where to even begin. you seem to have responded with quotations from the Book of Fighter Orthodoxy. Why would I lose the bastard sword proficiency (a very modest but nonetheless real DPR boost over other one handed weapons) when I could swap out quick draw (which, by the way is simply a placeholder to be retrained at 8 to greater shield focus or perhaps improved critical) for power attack instead (were I inclined to do so)?

People don't seem to understand the value of accuracy. You cannot take 10 on your attack rolls. If you could I would be all over power attack, but as it stands I scrounge for every measly point of attack bonus I can get because because being able to consistently hit on a low roll is more valuable than (imo) being able to hit somewhat harder when you do hit, but requiring a higher roll to hit at all.

My priorities go like this:
Attack bonus
Armour class
Damage
Saves

In the last combat (not session, but combat) that I played there were three hits I landed that would have missed had I been power attacking. that's 33-60 points total of damage lost over three attacks. I would have to make 7(!) successful power attacks to recoup the minimum lost damage from reduced accuracy just for that feat to begin to pull its own weight.

I will say that of all your comments the bit about my build being a bit... shall we say dry, would be the most accurate were it not for the fact that I've played him in an almost Warlord like fashion (coordinating strategy, setting up ambushes, tutoring the paladin on tactics ;)and so on).


I don't understand why people hate AC so much. High AC characters can often end up dealing more damage than (as long they don't sacrifice attack bonus) Two-handers simply because sometimes that +7 (or whatever) AC you have can be the difference between dropping after two rounds of being full-attacked by the fire-giant Anti-paladin or four rounds of said beatings.

Just a random example but it illustrates my point.


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North Star wrote:


I'm not sure where to even begin. you seem to have responded with quotations from the Book of Fighter Orthodoxy. Why would I lose the bastard sword proficiency (a very modest but nonetheless real DPR boost over other one handed weapons) when I could swap out quick draw (which, by the way is simply a placeholder to be retrained at 8 to greater shield focus or perhaps improved critical) for power attack instead (were I inclined to do so)?

People don't seem to understand the value of accuracy. You cannot take 10 on your attack rolls. If you could I would be all over power attack, but as it stands I scrounge for every measly point of attack bonus I can get because because being able to consistently hit on a low roll is more valuable than (imo) being able to hit somewhat harder when you do hit, but requiring a higher roll to hit at all.

My priorities go like this:
Attack bonus
Armour class
Damage
Saves

In the last combat (not session, but combat) that I played there were three hits I landed that would have missed had I been power attacking. that's 33-60 points total of damage lost over three attacks. I would have to make 7(!) successful power attacks to recoup the minimum lost damage from reduced accuracy just for that feat to begin to pull its own weight.

Not sure how to take the first comment, bu still...

If there was a trait (and it may very well exist, I don't use traits) that gave me +1 to damage I could take it. Maybe. A feat? No, thanks. That's what proficiency with bastard sword give you (compared to the good ol' longsword).

For every one of my character I run an excel file which calculates the average damage for my character using all kind of different options against a specific target AC: among other things, I compare the values using power attack and not using it. I know what I'm talking about when I say that using power attack is generally better (by far) than not using it. You need massive bonus to damage (higher than a bit of weapon training and of weapon specialization) and very low to hit (a problem fighters certainly do not have) or a very high AC to make power attack a disadvantage. Power attack it's even more important in case of DR. And, most importantly, if you know that your opponent is at 5 hp and you just need to hit him to get a kill, well, just don't use power attack.

Quote:

I don't understand why people hate AC so much. High AC characters can often end up dealing more damage than (as long they don't sacrifice attack bonus) Two-handers simply because sometimes that +7 (or whatever) AC you have can be the difference between dropping after two rounds of being full-attacked by the fire-giant Anti-paladin or four rounds of said beatings.

Just a random example but it illustrates my point.

I do not hate AC, but I don't agree with you. Simply, a dead enemy can't hurt you. My idea of "effective" for a melee character is maximizing damage output while having a good AC.

Quote:
I will say that of all your comments the bit about my build being a bit... shall we say dry, would be the most accurate were it not for the fact that I've played him in an almost Warlord like fashion (coordinating strategy, setting up ambushes, tutoring the paladin on tactics ;)and so on).

Good to know that you enjoyed your character anyway, I was just trying to give you an advice since I played a character similar to that one and converted into a paladin mid-play because I was not having much fun.


North Star wrote:
Black_Lantern wrote:
You may or may not like it but power attack is one of the best feats for fighters. Even if you're one handing it's still statistically more damage nearly all the time to have power attack on then it is not to have it on. Your attack bonus should rocket past others ac at the end of low levels as well. It is one of those feats that give you enough damage to be considered a threat to be dealt with. You don't have taunts, shouts, and/or anything else like that. You have your damage and how likely they can hit you. People tend to target people they can hit and they also target people that are a threat. If you have high ac and deal low damage no one will target you. This is why I believe two handed weapons and twf shield bashing is the best melee options for a fighter. Consider putting your 17 in con and your 13 in dex. Preferably you should put that +2 in strength. The reason why I suggest con over dex is your health pool will allow you to tank those hits and at the same time give them more reason to attack you. Besides you're going to find out soon that ac doesn't scale that well when it comes to later in the game unless you really focus on it. Just make sure you don't get dominated and you should be fine as long as your health pool is high. Also consider picking up a couple potions of fly.

I think AC scales fine.

People (not just you) make the argument that AC doesn't scale with monster attack bonus, and then turn right around and say that if you boost your AC too much monsters won't be able to land hits, and so will just ignore you since people also tend to make the (erroneous imo) assumption that if you invest in AC you somehow won't be able to deal enough damage to make monsters pay attention.

high-level AC is not about stopping every attack, because let's face it, that first attack is going to hit, it's about stopping that second, third and fourth attack.

What I'm trying to tell you is that a martials presence is pathetic. Trying to boost ac is even more pointless then you think, consider touch, flat footed, and the fact that there are many monsters that don't rely on hitting ac, or even using multiple attacks. As for your campaign I don't understand why magic isn't allowed but magical items are. However that isn't for me to decide and for your group to. It's better to go shield bash or 2handed because it's more effective to kill someone faster and prevent future attacks than it is to give yourself a pathetic bonus to ac. Not only that but there are several items and spells that give percentage dodge bonuses.


Crysknife wrote:
North Star wrote:


I'm not sure where to even begin. you seem to have responded with quotations from the Book of Fighter Orthodoxy. Why would I lose the bastard sword proficiency (a very modest but nonetheless real DPR boost over other one handed weapons) when I could swap out quick draw (which, by the way is simply a placeholder to be retrained at 8 to greater shield focus or perhaps improved critical) for power attack instead (were I inclined to do so)?

People don't seem to understand the value of accuracy. You cannot take 10 on your attack rolls. If you could I would be all over power attack, but as it stands I scrounge for every measly point of attack bonus I can get because because being able to consistently hit on a low roll is more valuable than (imo) being able to hit somewhat harder when you do hit, but requiring a higher roll to hit at all.

My priorities go like this:
Attack bonus
Armour class
Damage
Saves

In the last combat (not session, but combat) that I played there were three hits I landed that would have missed had I been power attacking. that's 33-60 points total of damage lost over three attacks. I would have to make 7(!) successful power attacks to recoup the minimum lost damage from reduced accuracy just for that feat to begin to pull its own weight.

Not sure how to take the first comment, bu still...

If there was a trait (and it may very well exist, I don't use traits) that gave me +1 to damage I could take it. Maybe. A feat? No, thanks. That's what proficiency with bastard sword give you (compared to the good ol' longsword).

For every one of my character I run an excel file which calculates the average damage for my character using all kind of different options against a specific target AC: among other things, I compare the values using power attack and not using it. I know what I'm talking about when I say that using power attack is generally better (by far) than not using it. You need massive bonus to damage (higher than a bit of weapon training and...

I think that +1 damage per attack is worth a feat to a fighter. that's why I took EWP. It applies to every attack always, as compared to feats like improved trip which are highly situational, and simply sit there eating up a slot while you fight multi-legged, incorporeal and large creatures.

In regards to first comment, I simply found it interesting how you went straight to the bastard sword, suggesting that I swap it for power attack, so -2 to hit for +3 to average damage on a hit, instead of quick draw, for -2 to hit and +4 damage on a hit.

I'd like to know how many attacks you make and against what AC you make those attacks against when you run your excel test. I've given you numbers derived from actual play showing how power attack basically has a 1 in 10 chance to gimp actual damage output for a number of rounds every time you make an attack roll.

You have essentially asked me to just have faith that power attack is worth it for a one-hander.


North Star wrote:


I think that +1 damage per attack is worth a feat to a fighter. that's why I took EWP. It applies to every attack always, as compared to feats like improved trip which are highly situational, and simply sit there eating up a slot while you fight multi-legged, incorporeal and large creatures.

Well, this may also depend on level. For us, we play level 1 to 5-6 at a fast pace, then slow progressively, so that a campaign reaching level 12 (we rarely go past that) will be about 70% of real life time at levels 8-12.

At those level a fighter bonuses becomes significant and a +1 to damage on my sheet will not matter at all to me. At level 7 and below it is more significant, but still I would hate to waste one of my feat on something so "static".
Trip is situational but it really screws your enemy when you pull it off and offers you variety: changing tactics every round (attacking, tripping, using a bow and whatever) depending on the need is (imo) both fun and effective.

Quote:


In regards to first comment, I simply found it interesting how you went straight to the bastard sword, suggesting that I swap it for power attack, so -2 to hit for +3 to average damage on a hit, instead of quick draw, for -2 to hit and +4 damage on a hit.

Next level that would be -3 for +5, which is more significant, but the real seller is the possibility of going two-handed when you need it. That become -3 for +8 (plus half STR). You see, it a tool that allow you to be effective while doing something a bit different, a button that let you select offensive or defensive mode (without power attack there would be no reason for you to drop your shield). That button is worth more than a +1 to damage in my opinion.

Why keeping quick draw? My average encounters last for about 4-5 rounds (some even less, very few significantly more). In that encounter you can often benefit from quickdraw once, sometimes twice or more: it's useful in the first round to get the iterative attack, it's useful when you need to use a bow (see that I suggested some archery feats for additional versatility), it's useful if you get disarmed or fumble losing your weapon (this is a common houserule but of course your group may not use it) or you get your main weapon sundered and want to retrieve your secondary weapon. Uberpowerful? I guess not, but there will be times where you will be extremely glad to have taken it (I know because whenever I take it I'm surprised by how many times it come up): having a +1 to average damage will rarely be significant. Sure, it's not that bad, but rarely I'll think "wow, so glad I'm using a bastard sword, that 18 damage could really have been 17!!".

Quote:


I'd like to know how many attacks you make and against what AC you make those attacks against when you run your excel test. I've given you numbers derived from actual play showing how power attack basically has a 1 in 10 chance to gimp actual damage output for a number of rounds every time you make an attack roll.

You have essentially asked me to just have faith that power attack is worth it for a one-hander.

You input stuff like STR, BAB, base damage, bonus to to hit, bonus to damage, crit multiplier and it gives you an average damage (you can input DR) and a probability of hitting against a certain AC (AC that you can choose).

Then it combines those two things into a total average damage that reflect both your probability to hit and you damage. The process is replicated in order to reflect my various needs: I have 4 for my barbarian (using a 2-h weapon, power attack and not, and using claws, power attack and not), I've 4 for my ranger (basic bow, deadly aim, rapid shot and both rapid shot and deadly aim). The answer I seek is "if I need x roll to hit, which option is better"? I generally see that power attack is a very solid option, especially for 2-handers.
I had a sheet for a 1-hander but I would have to re-write it.
If you are interested and have some confidence with ms excel (you will have to modify some cells to reflect fighting one handed and possibly other stuff) I can send it to you, so you can see for yourself when it's worth it and when it's not. Also, there are ton of other similar sheets around which may be already suited to your needs.
If you prefer you can give me some ACs I'll give you the result back.
As I said, I don't expect that you will benefit much from power attack while using a shield: I still think from previous calculations with other characters that power attack will still be a good option for a 1-hander against the typical ACs of monster 1-2 CR higher than APL.

To more directly reply to your question: you say that power attack let you miss 1 time less out of 10.
Let's say that you deal 5,5+5(str)+5(weapon+w.spec.+w.training)=15
I could have missed something but you get the point.

Let's take 10 attack which would hit without power attack. Your damage is 15*10=150.

With power attack (switching bastard prof) you deal 18 damage (+3). You also miss 1 attack out of 10 which would have hit. Your damage is 18*9=162.
I used your numbers, this is not the correct way to make the calculation, but you see my point?

Remember, you can choose when to use power attack. Your opponent has uber-AC? Attack normally (unless you need a 20 to hit, in which case power attack away). Your opponent is tripped? Power attack. You are flanking, charging or your bard made you feel heroic? Power attack.

Dark Archive

Personally, I'd go with the Power Attack for the sole reason of having more options in battle. I'm not sure about you, but to me, having only a single answer to every combat situation is very uninteresting to play. I think that Power Attack, while small and sometimes insignificant, definitely outweighs EWP's still smaller bonus.

Still, it certainly depends on your playstyle. If you don't mind your Fighter's lack of options, the small difference in numbers really doesn't matter.


Crysknife wrote:
North Star wrote:


I think that +1 damage per attack is worth a feat to a fighter. that's why I took EWP. It applies to every attack always, as compared to feats like improved trip which are highly situational, and simply sit there eating up a slot while you fight multi-legged, incorporeal and large creatures.

Well, this may also depend on level. For us, we play level 1 to 5-6 at a fast pace, then slow progressively, so that a campaign reaching level 12 (we rarely go past that) will be about 70% of real life time at levels 8-12.

At those level a fighter bonuses becomes significant and a +1 to damage on my sheet will not matter at all to me. At level 7 and below it is more significant, but still I would hate to waste one of my feat on something so "static".
Trip is situational but it really screws your enemy when you pull it off and offers you variety: changing tactics every round (attacking, tripping, using a bow and whatever) depending on the need is (imo) both fun and effective.

Quote:


In regards to first comment, I simply found it interesting how you went straight to the bastard sword, suggesting that I swap it for power attack, so -2 to hit for +3 to average damage on a hit, instead of quick draw, for -2 to hit and +4 damage on a hit.

Next level that would be -3 for +5, which is more significant, but the real seller is the possibility of going two-handed when you need it. That become -3 for +8 (plus half STR). You see, it a tool that allow you to be effective while doing something a bit different, a button that let you select offensive or defensive mode (without power attack there would be no reason for you to drop your shield). That button is worth more than a +1 to damage in my opinion.

Why keeping quick draw? My average encounters last for about 4-5 rounds (some even less, very few significantly more). In that encounter you can often benefit from quickdraw once, sometimes twice or more: it's useful in the first round to get the iterative attack, it's useful when...

Urgh... I just lost my reply... So here's the short version:

I would never sacrifice attack bonus unless my last iterative attack can hit the target in question on a 2, because while the d20 averages out in the long term, in the short term (like a 3 round encounter) you can easily end up rolling a long string of threes, fours and fives (like I did last session, and still managed to score some hits). By 9th level (if all goes according to plan) I'll have +22 +17 to hit for 1d10+12, and AC 33 (possibly more).

This is an unspectacular style, but it is powerful in a way that is not terribly obvious. One way take advantage of the action economy is to try to grant yourself extra action (summons etc.), The other is to ensure that your actions are effective while the enemy's are not, and all it takes is a couple rounds of that to put you way ahead.

Anyway... I had a lot more to say, but typing it all up again is starting to feel like a chore. -_- I'll try to post again in a bit.

P.S. I'd love to play around a bit with that excel file if you don't mind sending that over. ^_^


TKXapathy wrote:

Personally, I'd go with the Power Attack for the sole reason of having more options in battle. I'm not sure about you, but to me, having only a single answer to every combat situation is very uninteresting to play. I think that Power Attack, while small and sometimes insignificant, definitely outweighs EWP's still smaller bonus.

Still, it certainly depends on your playstyle. If you don't mind your Fighter's lack of options, the small difference in numbers really doesn't matter.

Considering that I normally only play wizards and clerics, and have done so since 3.5, nothing fighters can do seems terribly interesting to me, so I thought that I may as well just build with an eye torward efficiency "Uber Alles". ;)

Shadow Lodge

my suggestion, and im not bing snarky, play a monk. the best monk in the game is still pretty average. that way you dont need to have these limitations imposed, have a pretty flavorful character, and not outshine everyone.

Sczarni

North Star: Your argument about finicky dice is a bit skewed. You're ignoring the fact that you are just as likely to roll 20's as 1's.

North Star wrote:
I'm not terribly fond of crit builds reliance on not being unlucky. 15-20 is a 25% chance to crit, and if the dice are unkind, then there is nothing you can do about it.

Statistically speaking you are better off using a weapon with either an expanded threat range (18-20x2) or higher multiplier (19-20x3 Falcata).

Why do you presume that not critting with a falchion is worse then not critting with a bastard sword? I believe the average base damage of a Falchion is either equal to or greater then a Bastard sword.

The fact that you are more likely to crit is a bonus not a penalty.

And of course where you really benefit is the static damage (from Strength, Power Attack etc) getting multiplied on a crit. It drastically skews the average damage in favour of the Falchion.

It's a shame you won't allow yourself Furious Focus - if you did it would be a no-brainer to drop EWP & Quick Draw in favour of Power Attack & Furious Focus.


Stasiscell wrote:
I would have Made a Archer Fighter.

If the group needed pure damage output I would have done an archer fighter as well, though my build would be a little different.

Str: 18 (Human and lvl 4 bonus)
Dex: 20 (Belt of DEX +2)
Con: 14
Int: 11
Wis: 13
Cha: 10

Boots of Speed,+1 Full Plate, +1 cloak of resistance, +1 Composite 4 Longbow, Belt of Dex.

Feats: Point-Blank, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Manyshot, Two free feats to spend on whatever you want. At level 8/9 get Improved Crits: Longbow, and Greater Weapon Focus.

Fighter Weapon Training: Bow

With the Boots of Speed on you fire 5 arrows a turn.

+1 Composite Longbow w/ haste from boots: (First shot is two arrows)

+12/+12/+12/+7

(BAB +7/+2, Dex +5, Weapon Training +1, Haste +1, Weapon Focus +1, Magic Bow +1, Rapid Shot -2, Deadly Aim -2)

Damage per arrow: 1d8+12

(STR +4, Deadly Aim +4, Weapon Training +1, Magic Bow +1, Weapon Specilization +2)

I recently retired the lvl 12 version of this charictor in PFS. It is pretty strong.


Krodjin wrote:

North Star: Your argument about finicky dice is a bit skewed. You're ignoring the fact that you are just as likely to roll 20's as 1's.

North Star wrote:
I'm not terribly fond of crit builds reliance on not being unlucky. 15-20 is a 25% chance to crit, and if the dice are unkind, then there is nothing you can do about it.

Statistically speaking you are better off using a weapon with either an expanded threat range (18-20x2) or higher multiplier (19-20x3 Falcata).

Why do you presume that not critting with a falchion is worse then not critting with a bastard sword? I believe the average base damage of a Falchion is either equal to or greater then a Bastard sword.

The fact that you are more likely to crit is a bonus not a penalty.

And of course where you really benefit is the static damage (from Strength, Power Attack etc) getting multiplied on a crit. It drastically skews the average damage in favour of the Falchion.

It's a shame you won't allow yourself Furious Focus - if you did it would be a no-brainer to drop EWP & Quick Draw in favour of Power Attack & Furious Focus.

I was being pretty vague there so I'll try to clear up what I was talking about.

First, a disclaimer; I do not think that crit builds are ineffective, nor did I say that were(though it is understandable that someone may have thought that was what I was saying). Point in fact, I'm actually going to retrain quick-draw for improved critical, it is simply to good a feat for someone who uses a 19-20 weapon (and mandatory for an 18-20 weapon) to pass up. Crit builds also received a buff in the form of feats and the fact that they no longer suck against one of the most common monster types(undead).

So what am I grumbling about then? It is the fact that while crit dpr compares favourably other styles when averaged over a sufficiently large sample base, an individual encounter generally does not last long enough to ensure that you are going to roll a number higher than 14. You probably will, but you might not.

Also, I would no more compare the falchion to the bastard sword than I would apples to oranges. Two-handing is an inherently different proposition than sword and board one-handing. Why would I have shield focus if I am going to be wielding a falchion? Never mind the fact that power attack suddenly becomes worth using. The closest high-crit weapon to the bastard sword is the scimitar. The only people you see using those are dervish dancers.

Basically, when you optimize for critting your not doing as much as you could be when you are not critting, making you relatively inconsistent.

Liberty's Edge

I am think some of the posters alternated between saying Falcata and Falchion. Falcata may be unavailable based on your restriction of CRB, but I think they were trying to advise EWP Falcata (1h improved crits) rather than EWP Bastard Sword.

It seems like it may have been a small mis-communication.

I also think a lot of optimisers place more importance on statistics than shear reliability. If you crit on 15-20, on average you'll get a crit chance when you attack 4 times. That's almost certainly every combat, especially with iterative attacks. Sure you may roll a string of 3's, and you seem to want to design for this possibility, but most players are going to play the odds and go for the higher DPS. Sure they may roll a string of 3's, but they'll also roll a string of 17's.


Have you considered putting in 3 ranks to acrobatics to get the bonuses when fighting defensively and total defense (+3 AC instead of +2, +6 AC instead of +4)?


Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Have you considered putting in 3 ranks to acrobatics to get the bonuses when fighting defensively and total defense (+3 AC instead of +2, +6 AC instead of +4)?

Huh. For some reason I thought you didn't get that anymore. I could get it next level I guess.


Scray wrote:

I am think some of the posters alternated between saying Falcata and Falchion. Falcata may be unavailable based on your restriction of CRB, but I think they were trying to advise EWP Falcata (1h improved crits) rather than EWP Bastard Sword.

It seems like it may have been a small mis-communication.

I also think a lot of optimisers place more importance on statistics than shear reliability. If you crit on 15-20, on average you'll get a crit chance when you attack 4 times. That's almost certainly every combat, especially with iterative attacks. Sure you may roll a string of 3's, and you seem to want to design for this possibility, but most players are going to play the odds and go for the higher DPS. Sure they may roll a string of 3's, but they'll also roll a string of 17's.

Right, I understand how it works, it's just that I think that many of the "mainstream" builds are slightly overrated (imo) for reasons that I feel I've made fairly clear at this point.

Consistency is a form of power, because the game designed in such a way that the PCs are meant to able to overcome challenges at or slightly above their Level in CR, Barring very bad luck or very poor choices. Thus, Reducing the element of chance (high attack bonus, high AC and high saves) increases the ease of killing monsters and taking their stuff.


I like your choice to go for a one handed weapon, although I don't know if I would burn a feat to have an exotic weapon unless it did something special for me (like opening up another string of feats as with nets).

I would consider dropping from a heavy shield to a buckler for the option of going two handed when you are fighting low AC or CR enemies. You lose 1-2 AC and take a -1 penalty to hit, but you can crank out the bonus damage with power attack and the 1.5x str multiplier while you do. Since AC does not scale as well as to hit, I would consider having the ability to dump it for more dps in a case where the AC doesn't help or raw damage output surpasses the need for AC or to hit.

Since you have a decent dex you may want to optimize more towards ranged combat with non-essential feats. This will let you contribute in combats against fliers or when closing with an enemy isn't ideal. I would say point blank shot into precise shot would be a good place to start if you want to go that route. Arrows are also easy to keep around to overcome many types of DR. Maybe carrying a sword made of each kind of material is excessive, but a couple arrows of each kind is money well spent. Also consider throwing weapons (my favorite being daggers) for the same reason. They cost more to make per dagger, but you spend once and can reuse till you are blue in the face. Also nice to have that light weapon at hand for when you get swallowed by a T-Rex.

Also consider picking up a reach weapon. Some enemies can cause significant hurt if you have to stand adjacent to them. A reach weapon alone lets you overcome some of these issues (and remember that reach weapons can attack around corners, unlike standard melee weapons. Its situational, but you have the money to be prepared for that situation). In this same vein you could grab the lunge feat. Also note that reach typically doubles natural reach, so an enlarge person can make you threaten 20ft with a reach weapon.

Consider ways to become more mobile. I've seen many a rogue die because they try to flank and end up flanked by a creatures allies. If you position into a mob of enemies (which may or may not be a good move depending on if you will need your healer to be able to reach you) then you get to soak those attacks instead of your rogue. Since you have a high AC build it is better for you to take the hits. So what I am saying is pump that acrobatics. Don't let the full plate keep you down.

Plate is the best armor in the game... if you're wearing it. Depending on the situation (social norms, sleeping, etc), you may find yourself not in your fullplate. Your enemies will not wait the five minutes or more it takes to get into your armor, so consider a backup. Typically I select a light set of armor with no armor check penalties. You can sleep in it without becoming fatigued (if you feel you need to), it makes a great backup if you are forced to go into a situation where you need to stealth, climb, etc. High AC is nice... until you get caught sneaking into somewhere you shouldn't be or fall off a cliff.

Depending on how you travel and if you are at or nearing encumbrance limits I suggest you look into more gear. A tower shield may tank your to hit number some, but it may be worth it for the cover or AC. Caltrops can be used to help slow or funnel enemies if you have time to choose the location of your battle and a few rounds to prepare. There are many more good options, but I won't go over all of them. Consider getting a handy haversack for items you want to retrieve in combat since it negates the AoO from retrieving a stored item and cuts the action down to a move. For non-combat items or things that just plain don't fit there is the bag of holding, everyone's favorite magic item. Use it, love it. That encumbrance problem may be able to be mitigated via these two items as well.

Overall remember not to neglect your options. High AC and damage are great, but nearly everyone does damage. It's nice to fall back on pounding on people with full attacks, but be prepared for when that isn't an option. Be prepared for when your chosen weapon that you sunk all those feats into isn't the best choice. Be a multiple threat and be prepared, that is the best advice I can give any build.

Sczarni

I also wanted to say that if you like your build go for it! There's no better build to play then one you want to play.

I play lots of sub-optimal stuff for the sake of an idea in my head that I have for a character that I just have to play.

I am also not trying to say your build is done poorly at all - you asked to be critized after all - lower DPR was the first thing that jumped out at me!

One of the most consistent builds I've played is a switch hitting Ranger. I put QuickDraw to good use with that build as I will often switch from bow, to glaive, to Elven curve blade - I used half elf ancestral arms to gain proficiency which equates to a human just taking EWP. Why did I do it? Because I wanted to of course! And if sword and board is what you want to do I say go for it!

I'd play your build for sure - it may not be Optimized, but it's certainly not gimped either. It's solid.


Krodjin wrote:

I also wanted to say that if you like your build go for it! There's no better build to play then one you want to play.

I play lots of sub-optimal stuff for the sake of an idea in my head that I have for a character that I just have to play.

I am also not trying to say your build is done poorly at all - you asked to be critized after all - lower DPR was the first thing that jumped out at me!

One of the most consistent builds I've played is a switch hitting Ranger. I put QuickDraw to good use with that build as I will often switch from bow, to glaive, to Elven curve blade - I used half elf ancestral arms to gain proficiency which equates to a human just taking EWP. Why did I do it? Because I wanted to of course! And if sword and board is what you want to do I say go for it!

I'd play your build for sure - it may not be Optimized, but it's certainly not gimped either. It's solid.

I asked for criticism as sort of a theory-crafting stress test if you will, To see if there were any flaws I had overlooked or had not assessed properly. Mostly I had already weighed and considered the issues that were brought up, but by defending my position I have developed a somewhat deeper understanding of how attack bonus, Damage modifiers and AC interact with each other than I would have otherwise.

P.S. I've played one session with this guy and had a great time! We went up against a couple of girrallions (sp?) and Oswald (this guy) came out of the exchange unscathed(I set up an ambush from atop some ruins, and by the time they reached us one had been injured considerably).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Mortifier wrote:
Stasiscell wrote:


I recently retired the lvl 12 version of this charictor in PFS. It is pretty strong.

I played with this character at the last con we were at together. He would fire several times, roll, look up, and say something like 135 damage every round.

This was also the same character that when confronted with 9 charging enemies stated, I shoot all of them with attacks of op.

I've seen him frustrate many a GM.

He is very fun to play with and run for though, just shows that archers are powerful pure and simple. (not invincible though, saw him get swallowed once:))


You have beast-mode stats. If you're not archering it up, I'd go:

STR 18 +1 (level) = 19
Dex 15 (+2 Human) = 17
Con 14
Wis 11
Int 13
Cha 10

Level 1: Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting
Level 2: Combat Reflexes
Level 3: Cleave
Level 4: Toughness
Level 5: Improved Bull Rush
Level 6: Shield Slam
Level 7: Improved TWF
Level 8: Greater Bull Rush
Level 9: Great Cleave
Level 10: Lunge
Level 11: Shield Master
Level 12: Improved TWF

Basically, you're going to go hardcore into sword/shield. We do a couple things:

1.) We avoid spending feats on weapon-specific stuff. Your shield should be your primary fighter focus, with weapon being secondary. Just take whatever weapon is best/most useful. Your weapon should be a bit better as a result.

2.) The basic tricks of this character are: On a full attack, he gets a ton of free bull-rushes. So if you want, you can fight one guy with 1 hand, while knocking everybody back with the other hand. If you are surrounded, you can Great Cleave-bullrush everybody with your shield. If you knock people away from you, the best they can do is get a single attack on you the next round. This fighter is a master of the battlefield.

3.) Your AC is going to be _great_. By level 7 (where you start!), you will get your full 17 dex in full plate thanks to armor training.

4.) Your damage is going to be good, too. Not the best, but you'll be dual-wielding. You'll eat things up on a full attack. Lunge will get you more full attacks than you would otherwise get. On a standard action, you can still move up to a group of enemies and great-cleave.

Just a build idea for you. =) You'll find that, as a dual-wielding fighter, your DPR will be pretty great regardless of what you do.

Spread your cash out over a magic light shield, armor, weapon, and cloak of resistance, emphasizing cheap bonuses (CoR, Shield, Armor) over expensive ones (Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Weapon)

You will be damn near indestructible, and be quite good at controlling the battlefield.

-Cross (Edit: About your equipment - obviously, I'd use a longsword or scimitar, 'cause I didn't take EWP. I'd drop the enhancement bonus from +2 to +1, and spent the 6k you saved, plus the 2k you're under-budget to get a cloak of resistance +3. I like saves.)

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