Do I allow my player to do this?


Advice

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Snorter wrote:
bookrat wrote:
The reason I like it? +10 on disguise checks to look like ANY human! And you can take 10 on the roll! Need to impersonate the human sergeant of the guards? That's a minimum of a 20 disguise check, plus skill ranks (and +3 for class skill), plus cha mod. At 1st level with a 16 cha, we're looking at a 27 disguise roll to impersonate any human of the same sex (and only a -2 of the other sex); and that's the "average," you can gamble and get up to a 37.

I think you're giving this feat far too much credit.

The +10 is a bonus to making yourself look human.

Not to impersonating any human that ever lived.

With some obvious challenges as to height and weight (especially if they're shorter and skinnier that you, and even then, a disguise self spell helps with this), I see no reason why you can't use this bonus to disguise yourself to look like a specific human. You might not be able to take 10 while doing so (and I can see why I was in error here), but the bonus should still be there. Also, I never said that you could use this bonus to disguise your buddies.

Quote:
Bob the Half-Elf is s@*#-hot at convincing people that he's really 'Bob the Human', but every time he does this, he is still recognisably 'Bob', to everyone who knows him. If any of those people know that 'Bob the Human' is really a half-elf, then they aren't likely to be fooled.

Part of the disguise skill includes bonuses to perception for people who are familiar with the individual you're trying to disguise yourself as. There's nothing in the rules that would state those who know you could see through your disguise, unless you're using the same exact disguise that some people have already seen through.

Once people know that bob the human is really bob the half-elf, then yeah, the bob-the-human disguise won't work well for them. But his jack-the-human disguise would need a new perception check.

Quote:
If Bob the Half-Elf needs to impersonate some specific human, he can still do so, much better than other half-elves, because he can ignore the automatic -2 penalty, but this feat doesn't make him inherently better at impersonating the town guard, than if he were born human.

Yes it does. It gives him a +10 to his disguise check over the person who was born human. Of course, if he truly wished to impersonate the town guard, he would need a good bluff roll. But Pass for Human would give him a really good chance at looking like the sergeant.

The reason I believe it works like this is because if a person has specialized in human looks, facial structure, etc so well that s/he has a feat in it, then that person would be able to study a specific person's looks enough to duplicate it through this feat. I think of it in a similar vein as Michelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel - he wasn't an expert in painting, he was an expert in sculpting; but because he knew muscle structure so well due to his sculpting, he was able to create beautifully accurate paintings of people.

It just really doesn't make sense to me to claim that a half-elf is really good at looking like a human, but as soon as they try to look like a specific human, nearly all of their knowledge and skill goes away.

Besides, people already think this feat is worthless; why nerf it and prove them right?

Shadow Lodge

bookrat wrote:

It just really doesn't make sense to me to claim that a half-elf is really good at looking like a human, but as soon as they try to look like a specific human, nearly all of their knowledge and skill goes away.

Besides, people already think this feat is worthless; why nerf it and prove them right?

Your argument makes sense if Bob the half-elf is really good at passing for human because of his keen study of human facial structure, accents, body language, etc. If Bob just happens to have more human-like features than the average half-elf, it doesn't make much sense for him to be better at impersonating the sheriff than the average human. In this case, the issue is whether the half-orc tribesman is unbalanced in the latter situation.

IMO, if it gives those general infiltration benefits you describe it's a fair feat due to high situational usefulness.

If the feat functions only as snorter describes, giving a DC 20 + Disguise modifier for others to notice that the character isn't human (assuming character takes 10), and removing the -2 penalty but giving no other benefit when using a targeted human disguise, it should probably be down-graded to a trait. Note that if the character does not have a bonus to Disguise, any character with Keen Senses, Wis 16, and fully trained Perception would automatically notice the character's non-human heritage as early as level 2.


Well, I came to a conclusion today.

All of his Racial Traits were changed at the start for Alternate Racial Traits, making him appear more human and so I said if he gets rid of one of his traits (Racial or normal Character Traits - one of his choice), I'd allow him to appear human, just with very pale green skin and said that if a Ranger damages him, The Ranger might know what race he is, but nobody else will and the Ranger would pick up on him if he has favoured enemy half-orc.

So, he swapped Reactionary for this and I said that it's a good deal because he thought I was telling him he could have pass for human for the +10 disguise check but as he was raised as a baby in this tribe, it would make sense just to make him look like a Human who was just naturally stronger.

He's fine with it, so now we can continue tomorrow without having to worry about new characters etc.

I can't recall what he said his level 3 feat was, but I saw him today and this is his character loadout:

Alternate Racial Traits Chosen: Sacred tattoo (this is the +1 luck bonus to all saves), Shaman's Apprentice and Skilled.

Traits: Brute

Feats: Shoanti Tribe

Seems legit to me.

My girlfriend wants to Spell Combat, Spellstrike two-handed, but I'm not too keen on that idea.

Last session I allowed her to, to see what it would do with her +2 Str and although the extra damage marginal I was pretty unsure on whether or not I should allow her to do that, as I want to stick with the proper mechanics, so she learns the game inside out. No homebrew etc, but if she doesn't plan on upping her Strength, I guess I could allow it.


Shoanti Tribe isn't a feat, but there is a Trait called Shoanti Tribesman. So your guy took a trait in place of a feat. If he's ok with this, then you should go ahead and give him the feat Additional Traits, which allows him to take 2 traits instead of a Feat, so he could have Brute, the Pass For Human Trait you homebrewed, Shoanti Tribesman, and Reactionary.

I'm not sure if this matters to you or not, but James Jacobs said a Magus can't use Spellstrike while wielding a two-handed weapon. I'm not very familiar with the Magus archetypes, so there may be an Archetype that allows it. If so, that's the exception, not the rule.


Bandavaar the Brave wrote:
Ranger would pick up on him if he has favoured enemy half-orc.

Ranger could also pick it up if s/he had favored enemy: orc.

Remember, half-orcs count as both human and orc, so anything that effects one of those two would effect a half-orc as well.


bookrat wrote:
Bandavaar the Brave wrote:
Ranger would pick up on him if he has favoured enemy half-orc.

Ranger could also pick it up if s/he had favored enemy: orc.

Remember, half-orcs count as both human and orc, so anything that effects one of those two would effect a half-orc as well.

One of my favorite jokes to pull on new players is to warn the half-elves/orcs about people wielding elf/orc and human bane weapons. They all get scared of the thought of someone's sword gaining a +4 Enhancement increase and an additional 4d6 points of damage against them. We snicker a little and then tell them Bane doesn't stack.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Bane does stack. At least, the extra damage does.

Shadow Lodge

Tels wrote:
Shoanti Tribe isn't a feat, but there is a Trait called Shoanti Tribesman. So your guy took a trait in place of a feat.

There's also the "Totem Spirit" feat described under this Shoanti Tribesman NPC entry:

Quote:
The tribesman has the Totem Spirit feat, which means he has close ties to the spirits of the Shundar-Quah tribe. The tribesman receives a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves and a +2 bonus on Perception checks.

Also referenced and described here. It suggests other benefits are available for other tribes, but I can't find them in the SRD and don't have the appropriate Golarion sourcebook.

You'll have to ask the player for his reference for the exact benefit, but it seems legit to me. Glad you two reached a compromise that didn't involve retiring the character.


Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

I swear when I was out there it was called a J-Turn. :p

The same as we call a roundabout....a roundabout and American Sat Nav calls it a Circle Turn. Haha!

Yea, I'm English myself so always spell Armour in this fashion, where as you guys spell it Armor etc. English English and English American are two fairly different things. XD

But yea, guess I'll be making a trip to his house tomorrow to go through things with him.

A J-Turn is a maneuver that you see in movies pretty often. It's where the driver takes his vehicle to high speed in reverse before swinging out to one side, then very quickly yanking the steering wheel the opposite direction while simultaneously going into second gear (depending on momentum, it will require split-second judgement).

Anyway, don't try it unless you are a professional stunt driver on a closed course. It's really cool but equally dangerous.


Abyssian wrote:
A J-Turn is a maneuver that you see in movies pretty often. It's where the driver takes his vehicle to high speed in reverse before swinging out to one side, then very quickly yanking the steering wheel the opposite direction while simultaneously going into second gear (depending on momentum, it will require split-second judgement).

Also known in the US as a bootlegger-turn, and in the UK as a handbrake-turn.


Weirdo wrote:

There's also the "Totem Spirit" feat.

You'll have to ask the player for his reference for the exact benefit, but it seems legit to me. Glad you two reached a compromise that didn't involve retiring the character.

Yep, I typed that he was using a Shoanti feat as it was easier, but it's one of those Totem Spirit ones, so he has one of the following and just in case you're wondering, they're in the original Rise of the Runelord's Player's Guides:

Totem Spirit

You are closely and mystically tied to your tribe’s sacred totem.
Prerequisite: Member of a Shoanti tribe.
Benefit: The benefit granted by this feat depends on which Shoanti tribe you belong to:

Lyrune-Quah (Moon Clan): You gain a +1 bonus on Will saves and a +2 bonus on Listen checks.
Shadde-Quah (Axe Clan): If you have the rage ability, it lasts for one additional round. You also gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
Shriikirri-Quah (Hawk Clan): You gain a +2 bonus on Initiative checks and a +2 bonus on Ride checks.
Shundar-Quah (Spire Clan): You gain a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves and a +2 bonus on Spot checks.
Sklar-Quah (Sun Clan): You gain a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.
Skoan-Quah (Skull Clan): You gain a +2 bonus on weapon damage against undead and a +2 bonus on Heal checks.
Tamiir-Quah (Wind Clan): Your base land speed increases by 5 feet. You also gain a +2 bonus on Jump checks.


Maybe I missed this, but what's his class?


Barbarian. :)

Silver Crusade

Umbranus wrote:
thedarkelf007 wrote:

Hey for my current games I have specified that the characters must be created in Hero Lab, and if they players don't have a copy they are welcome to use mine.

its cut a lot of "rule creep" out of the characters as its all specified in front of me, I can look their characters up between sessions, or bring up stuff mid game.

Your the GM, request a copy of the character, and if one is not made available, find another player. that sounds harsh, but then I have a glut of players right now and have no trouble with 3-4 players waiting to join my games.

I always ask my GMs if they want a copy of my char sheet. It would never come to my mind to deny it.

But to force players use a buggy program for char gen seems not harsh but silly.
Sorry if that sounds overly rude but I lack a better suited word in this language which in't by native one.

if they can show a bug that is a disadvantage I will write a patch for it and fix it, if is an advantage, well they have it until the publisher fixes it.

I run four separate campaigns, and believe me when I say I could not run it with confidence without having a standard for the characters to be held up against.

Pathfinder x2, Shadowrun (and play in one) and Star Wars (wrote custom code to make it work)

Now no player is without a character sheet, no all players can level their characters easily, and there is a reference available for all their abilities, spells and items without having to open a book all the time.

Works for my group, and I've trained a few novice GM's to use it such that they can concentrate on the game more and less about managing combat.

So as far as this thread is concerned, he got a good compromise, and you can see the character sheet.

Once that's been done I believe he has solved his pressing problem :)

And I hope we have helped more than hindered with our own perceptions and perspectives.

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