When I first read this I thought that this player was trying to take advantage of you, especially when he went on to say that taking the feat tax 'would ruin his build'.
However, all he's really asking for is a 're-skin' of Half Orc to make him look human, but is really a Half Orc. The more I consider his wish, the less I have a problem with it.
If I were you here's what I'd do.
Allow the re-skin, but there's something not quite right about his character when he inter-acts with people. Nothing obvious, nothing overt, but something strange.
His 'orc blood' may be 'weak' as he states it, but any ranger worth their salt will pick it up in a heartbeat. Other orcs will pick it up too, and perhaps goblins.
Let it pass, continue the game as is and then introduce a plot line into the campaign that brings this to light. Perhaps a dwarvern ranger who is passing by in the town picks it up and starts tracking him, bring in some game conflict later on, perhaps a member of his family comes seeking him for an urgent problem that raises the suspicions of the town.
The choices are endless, use this as an oppurtunity to roleplay the conflict.
The problem is that the player also wants to start in a Shoanti tribe, who will kill all half-orc on sight. So the player is trying to gain an in game advantage with an aesthetic change without paying for it, and that is cheese.
Let him. Even better. He better work hard to keep that lid on his half orc heritage sealed tighter than a rabbits snatch or he's gonna be in big trouble.
And If I was the GM, trouble would come knocking.
He better work hard to keep that lid on his half orc heritage sealed tighter than a rabbits snatchSo he should blab about it to everyone in town? I'm confused.
In hindsight I can see the confusion. I referenced a rabbit as it was a small creature and assumed it would have suitably narrow oraphices...
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Let him. Even better. He better work hard to keep that lid on his half orc heritage sealed tighter than a rabbits snatch or he's gonna be in big trouble.
And If I was the GM, trouble would come knocking.
How will you justify that after 16 - 18 years of hiding successfully in a tribe, all of a sudden they find out his ruse?
I mean the player here is basically getting the advantage of a feat (a crappy feat but a feat nonetheless) without paying for it.
To the OP: I think another compromise you can make is let the player get one of the two feats that allow him to pass as human for free, although he is a half orc.
Then you give all the other players a bonus feat of their choice. I think that will be very fair and the player can play his concept, but you won't be playing any favorites.
That's an elegant, although slightly passive-aggressive option, since other players will probably get a better feat than he did. (I'm not a fan of "punishing" people through game mechanics or IC stuff. If you have problems, deal with them OOC as an adult.)
The worrisome thing here would be the player trying to do all of this secretly. If as the GM you can't trust your players that's a problem.
Tell him you don't appreciate the way he handled this. No need to accuse him of cheating, just that you don't like it when you don't get such information, which you should have. If he wants something unusual, he should ask you openly, and you'll talk about how it can be done.
Now you insist on a copy of everyone's character sheet. No copy, no play. And after every level-up a new copy. If there's a discrepancy between their sheet and your copy, your copy is authoritative. If he whines about this, tell him that as a GM you want the sheet to properly GM; in order to create good stories and appropriate encounters you need to be able to refer to those stats.
a crappy feat but a feat nonetheless
I don't think it is a crappy feat, depending on the campaign. For a spy campaign, or a campaign which involves meshing in with a society on a regular basis while hiding your true identity, it can be great!. Detectives (it's a bard archetype) or assassins could find it extremely useful. And it's great for sneaking into places you couldn't otherwise go.
The reason I like it? +10 on disguise checks to look like ANY human! And you can take 10 on the roll! Need to impersonate the human sergeant of the guards? That's a minimum of a 20 disguise check, plus skill ranks (and +3 for class skill), plus cha mod. At 1st level with a 16 cha, we're looking at a 27 disguise roll to impersonate any human of the same sex (and only a -2 of the other sex); and that's the "average," you can gamble and get up to a 37. . Add in a 1st level disguise self spell, and that's a 37 disguise roll or up to a 47.
Once your disguise as the sergeant of the guards goes off without a hitch and you're inside the castle, hide out for 10-30 minutes and don your disguise to look like the prince! Or the royal scribe so you can sneak in and get those documents you need to prove that the Royal Vizier is up to no good and is making a deal with the enemy of the kingdom behind the king's back.
The feat is a lot better than people are making it out to be.
Tell the guy if he wants to play a half orc, he's playing a half orc, and his tribe just thought he was ugly for a human. Then place a hat of disguise in one of the treasure piles that the party runs across, so he can 'pass for human' any time he wants to. Let him put two and two together :)
That's an elegant, although slightly passive-aggressive option, since other players will probably get a better feat than he did.To the OP: I think another compromise you can make is let the player get one of the two feats that allow him to pass as human for free, although he is a half orc.
Then you give all the other players a bonus feat of their choice. I think that will be very fair and the player can play his concept, but you won't be playing any favorites.
I have to say, on reflection, that actually if you restrict the feat to being a racial feat, or something like Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Skill Focus, it's not.
I dunno. I've got mixed feelings about this.
On the one hand you've got a player that just made some stuff up (this semi-half-orc brew) and decided how to mix & match abilities. Then they presented it as a done deal without DM approval. Finally, when the DM pointed out how the character could be legally built, the player pulled the "you're ruining my concept" card. With this I have very, very little sympathy for the player. Sorry Player, come up with a concept that's legal according to the rules of the game. If that's impossible for you to do, ask what special dispensation might be made.
On the other hand this isn't terribly different from a player using something like ARG to assemble a custom race. Assuming the build fits, why not allow it?
So in the end... I think I come down on the side of make-the-player-play-legally. I can't get over the "you assumed something that violates the rules is okay" factor. What other cheating will this player engage in?
Lets look at 2 feats
Pass For Human
You receive a +10 bonus on Disguise checks to disguise yourself as a human.
Veiled Vileness
You appear outwardly human, with no obvious
signs of your orcish heritage (no Disguise check required).
plus you get +1 to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks and Will saves.
I think i would invest into Veiled vileness and not have to worry about a bad roll on a disguise check.
Player trying to pull a fast-one on the GM, reaping the racial benefits for being halforc, but unwilling to settle for the social problems (in Varisia and with his home-tribe) ?
Gently remind who is running the campaign (you, the GM), he is negatively affecting your [ii]concept[/i] of how you intend the campaign to be run and he can furtheron either abide by your standards (take the feat/trait ) , or if he chooses not to, either face the inevitable orbital-16-ton-piano or drop the character from the campaign.
He purposefully avoided explaining the character in advance, then does an about face considering race and background-impact of it and expects to get away with it ?
Fast-one, cheap one and then played miserably. He tries to cheat, let him face the music...
Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.there is no need for a Disguise check with the Veiled Vileness feat your human side is more dominant. In other words your body looks human no giant tusks or green skin you are human outside and have the half-orc inside. If you wanted you could make it into a trait trade it out for Intimidating like they did for the Shaman's Apprentice one that gives you endurance.What book is that in?
I forgot to comment on this before (I was away from home and didn't have access to my Inner Sea Guide book).
Anyways, Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting was published prior to the Pathfinder system and has been replaced by the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide.
According to Pathfinder Society rules:
As of 3/7/11, the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting has been replaced by the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide. Equipment, feats, and prestige classes already in play remain legal, but no further equipment may be purchased from this book, nor may a character take a feat or the first level in a prestige class from this source when gaining a new level. Any rules element which has been updated in the Inner Sea World Guide (as denoted with an asterisk below) MUST use the version in the World Guide. If the updated version of a feat has prerequisites you no longer meet, you may ignore those prerequisites.
As that feat is not in the Inner Sea Guide, it does not qualify as an official Pathfinder feat. Allowing it would be a house rule, but it's not in the current rules.
Edited
Hey for my current games I have specified that the characters must be created in Hero Lab, and if they players don't have a copy they are welcome to use mine.
its cut a lot of "rule creep" out of the characters as its all specified in front of me, I can look their characters up between sessions, or bring up stuff mid game.
Your the GM, request a copy of the character, and if one is not made available, find another player. that sounds harsh, but then I have a glut of players right now and have no trouble with 3-4 players waiting to join my games.
I always ask my GMs if they want a copy of my char sheet. It would never come to my mind to deny it.
But to force players use a buggy program for char gen seems not harsh but silly.Sorry if that sounds overly rude but I lack a better suited word in this language which in't by native one.
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I think the key question at this point isn't what you do about game balance, but what you do about DM-player relations. The player was clearly being secretive about this and disguising his actual character building process, which means that he was worried that if you knew how his character was built, you'd disallow it - and he did it anyway. This thought process is worrying. I would start by explaining that to the player.
Mechanically, if it's just a re-skin of the half-orc and not all the fancy infiltration benefits of Pass for Human that bookrat mentioned, it's probably not that big a game balance issue. You could give him standard Pass for Human as a bonus feat and give other players a similar racial or skill-focus feat as per Dabbler's comment to make up for it. Or if you want a smaller impact, you could turn the reskin into a trait and give the other players a bonus trait. (Personally, I think if you restrict him to merely appearing personally human and don't let him obscure his appearance or impersonate other humans with the same benefits, Pass for Human is fine as-is for a trait. DC 20 Perception to notice he's orc-blooded - nice and simple.) Either way, warn him that because his orc blood is stronger that he represented, at least internally, he might be recognized by more perceptive or in-the-know persons as Iced2K mentioned, and that it might cause him trouble. Then give him RP hooks to play into his character concept.
Just whatever you do mechanically, talk it over with the player and make sure he sees why you're concerned about not just his character build but his secretive behaviour and feels the solution is fair.
Well, that didn't go to plan.
I said he should go with his original concept of being a Human who has the Racial Heritage of Half-Orc in him, but he said his Shoanti trait gives him +1 to all saves as well as some other abilities and said he has the alternate Half-Orc third generation trait, but didn't tell me what others he had.
He said he cannot change the concept and wouldn't compromise, but didn't get aggressive or anything. He just said he'd make a new character, so I asked if he was sure because I didn't want it to come to that, but explained why his concept wouldn't work and the fact that shoanti would kill him on sight, so to make some kind of sense, he said he'd make a new character and think of a way to make his Barbarian leave the party to continue the search for his home.
It's a shame he decided this, but it was his choice and I explained I've been asking on here for advice and sorting out compromises all afternoon and evening, but yea, he said he'd make him leave create a new character. :/
The party needed a proper up front fighter, but I guess the Rogue will have to do that. Just a shame it seems like a waste of a character really and if possible, I would have continued to use his character until the end of thistletop, just making him a Human with the Racial Heritage Half-Orc feat, but he wants to make him go home, so the least I can do is allow him to control his character to the very end, choosing to leave if he so desires.
When he brings his next character concept in, make sure you see & are cool with everything on the sheet before you okay it. It sounds like he was trying something dodgy & got caught. Don't be a dick about it, but don't give him the chance to do so again. In the long run you will have fewer issues if you settle things like this up front.
My 2cp.
Bandavaar, there's something rotten going on. I suspect that character sheet has more wrong with it than you know and your player is retiring the character rather than reveal that to you. That you STILL don't get a copy of the sheet is highly suspect.
I would have severe trust issues moving forward.
Seconded. My advice, he doesn't get the next character until you approve the character sheet.
Thirded. If this player (your normal GM/DM) never let you see this Barbarian character's sheet, especially after you voiced your questions about it, there is something extremely fishy.
When I first starting DMing in the halcyon days, my old DM did something much like this. He called it a 'lesson in DMing'. I caught it before play started, so it wasn't very derailing, but it was annoying.
I'd explain to this person again that this is your first time DMing. Everyone in the group is going to need to cooperate to make this campaign successful, most especially the normal DM.
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Seconded. My advice, he doesn't get the next character until you approve the character sheet.
Thirded, and this is coming from someone who spent most of last night statting up a pancake golem because crafting one fits one of my players' concepts.
Also, there's no Shoanti trait that gives +1 to all saves. =/
-Cross
And so you're right. Then, I don't see the problem of changing his feats and traits around, but still, making his character leave is his choice.
I'll just push him hard to give me his character sheet with all traits and feats shown, ensuring he isn't doing anything questionable with his build.
I'll just push him hard to give me his character sheet with all traits and feats shown, ensuring he isn't doing anything questionable with his build.
Just tell him he isn't playing until he does.
Just tell him he isn't playing until he does.
Exactly. Especially at character creation.
My groups it's mandatory to provide the DM your character sheet every level. (Occasionally every other.) It helps everyone. If a player can't show up for a session, someone else can run their character. If the DM wants to craft a magic item for someone it lets the DM tailor the item to existing feats and traits etc. If the DM is concerned about wealth-by-level, he can do the math and increase or decrease treasure granted for a while. If the DM wants to roll Stealth vs Perception checks and similar in secret, he can scavenge statistics. If a player is a cheating bastard, the DM can discern this and act accordingly.
In short there are a bunch of reasons why the DM should have character sheets (not necessarily turned in at the end of the night though).
You could let him have his way with playing a HO that looks human (secretly giving him the feat) and give everyone else an additional feat, too.
I declare shennanigans!
Sorry you have to put up with this person Bandavaar. I do not know the guy but it sounds like he has some control issues. He was the previous GM does he has hard feeling about stepping down as GM?
Now it looks like he is doing his passive aggressive best to let you know he is upset.
I expect this is not the last we will hear about this grown child.
It's too bad really. As the previous GM he probably has a wealth of knowledge on how to run a game that he could share. He could be an awesome ally at the table but instead he looks content to pout. And he of ALL people should lead by example to the newbie players by providing his character sheet to the GM for approval and not work to undermine the new GM.
When i've seen a person who normally GMs start to play another game they typically have something very specific in mind the want to play as. Having been a gm for so long he most likely has some comfort issues playing under someone elses universe. I'de say this is typical. I'de also say he needs a strong and swift reality check.
This is your game man. Don't be a dick but definitely lay down the law.
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It's a very big game balance issue if this is a socially oriented campaign, especially one where an identifiable half-orc is subject to all sorts of prejudice and scorn.
Except in that case the half-orc is woefully unbalanced and underpowered. The race as outlined in the CRB is not powerful enough to justify handicapping them with significant social stigma in a campaign where such reactions are frequently the difference between success and failure. I've had a character auto-fail one Diplomacy due to race and another due to gender, and it's not fun. If I were aware that one particular CRB race would be disproportionally subject to such, I would probably not play that race.
I can understand that in this case the player is trying to dodge RP consequences of his racial choices and is being underhanded about it, but if he had been up-front about wanting half-orc stats without being subject to the Shoanti kill-on-sight rule, it would have been perfectly reasonable for the DM to give him a bit of a break. The DM could have reviewed the character in its totality and could have decided whether the different appearance unbalanced that character in that campaign, using other characters in the campaign as a reference. Most likely there would be no significant difference in character ability. The DM could also have applied the RP consequences in a more subtle manner, such as by having the character identified by a now-hostile ranger with orcs as a favoured enemy. This would have added lots of RP flavour and tied in well to the character concept of hiding what he is. Or the DM could give him a talisman or tattoo that acts as a Cloak of Human Guise, obtained by the character's mother when he was born at the cost of a plot hook. However, the DM's ability to make this judgement and find creative solutions was denied by the player's secretive behavior. This is why I think the player-DM relationship was the real issue here. There is nothing on the game balance end of this scenario that can compare with a player actively trying to hide their stats from the DM.
Also worth noting: The "skilled" alternate racial trait is described as being common to second- and third-generation half orcs whose orc blood is weaker, but the trait does not itself make the character visibly less orcish, certainly not to the extent the player describes.
Sorry you have to put up with this person Bandavaar. I do not know the guy but it sounds like he has some control issues.
Well, I don't like saying it because he'll possibly read this thread and no doubt disagree with what I have to say about him, but he is a fairly controlling person.
He lies and deny's things he does, then his best friend (who I was originally friends with first and introduced him to) stands up for him and says that I'm almost always wrong, so I don't bother arguing half of the time because they both get really defensive about things, but fact of the matter is, he favours other players when he's GM'ing and if you look at some of my other posts/threads, I had a character in Kingmaker who was going to be King (he asked us all what our goals were from the start), then decided to put the least leader typed character as Queen because he told the player my guy's stats, so that player min-maxed his character to have +1 more Charisma than me, then taking the role.
It's little things like that which develop into huge issues and cause party conflict. He also said nobody wanted a tyrant as a leader (Charm Cleric ftw) and yet the Queen Sorceress broke the laws of the land, summon creatures to do her bidding in front of people always....and did far less diplomatic reasonings with people to gain allies than my guy and a few of the other players got annoyed with me for always doing Diplomacy (I had a +12 in it), because they wanted to get things for themselves, so I think the problem was that our group in general usually has to get one over on each other and intervene due to OOC reasons with characters in game reasons and motives, which is why I was going to overthrow the queen and get her arrested. Still, the GM and GM's favourite player got bored of the campaign, so he stopped running it for the rest of us (aside from that player, there were four of us including myself).
I dunno, he also got a Worg to coup de grace my character and completely ignore the other downed Cleric, claiming it coup de graced me as I was the biggest threat and the other Cleric just healed things (without selective channel), so even though it was an evil creature, he claimed it would only attack me on the ground...bye bye favourite character.
Though he did allow for me to create a new character to work towards bringing that guy back, but said if we ever play Kingmaker again, I'm not allowed the character that died and also, if the camapign was still continuing he said he wouldn't allow for me to roleplay loads in the Kingdom or use a Wish or Miracle to get his level up to the parties.
Lame ruling, but whatever.
He should be setting an example, but his actions (when he's the GM) just wind people up at times.
Still, he's the only person who GM's in my area and so if I or anyone else stops playing, we can no longer play the game ever. That's life!
I gave him options anyway and always allow for compromises he doesn't, but he didn't want any compromise, claiming his character was ruined with any changes. If he feels that way, then that's fine, but if I wanted a character to remain in the party and it was a problem that could have been solved, I'd have changed bits of the concept.
He's not me though.
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Bandavaar, always remember: no gaming always beats bad gaming.
Ha, well there is that, but if you like playing and don't want to run it for another group, instead actually wanting to play, you have no choice. :p
I prefer playing to running it.
I dunno, some people like running it more, others like playing more and I'm the latter, but don't find play by posts all that fun. I like to talk to people face to face and roleplay myself, rather than typing everything up for a few minutes each day. :/
It's big in America to play this, but hard to find players in England. The interest is spread out here far too much.
Not so hard I have found...there are players, but you have to look hard to find them!
About that whole "Shoanti killing half-orcs on site" thing. It's kinda been disproven in the Council of Thieves books (Infernal Syndrome to be accurate) with the appearance of Zol, a Shoanti Half-Orc. He was NOT killed on sight by his fellow tribesmen. He even got away with murdering another Shoanti (of his own tribe, actually) since instead of killing him, they exiled him. Rather interesting, ain't it?
I swear when I was out there it was called a J-Turn. :p
The same as we call a roundabout....a roundabout and American Sat Nav calls it a Circle Turn. Haha!
Yea, I'm English myself so always spell Armour in this fashion, where as you guys spell it Armor etc. English English and English American are two fairly different things. XD
But yea, guess I'll be making a trip to his house tomorrow to go through things with him.
I think someone was pulling your leg. Did they tell you that the things you wear on your feet in winter are called trunks?
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This will sound bad at first, but bear with me.
I spy for my DM.
I do this in a helpful manner, to both fellow player and DM.
I ask to review other player's sheets, mostly to help them have their numbers meet their vision. It breaks my heart when a player has a cool idea, thinks they have it figured out, then later it falls apart due to poor building, or a misunderstanding of the rules.
Everyone already knows I am there to help, in accomplishing that task.
This also makes me aware of shenanigans, or possibly problematic builds, due to other reasons. When I cannot change the player's mind through suggestion, I let the DM know.
I understand that he is busy, and may only take a quick glance at character sheets, so he may miss things.
In the end, everyone knows what everyone else is playing, and no gets a problematic surprise.
This is how it should be.
Pathfinder is a group game, and only works, when everyone work to contribute to the fun.
That is the absolute main goal, for everyone to have fun, even the DM.
Sometimes, people need to be reminded of this.
His fun should not be at the expense of yours, or anyone else's.
It's big in America to play this, but hard to find players in England. The interest is spread out here far too much.
Try joining Pathfinder Society, where house rules don't matter and the DM changes by session. There are some upcoming events in England that you might be able to make it to. UK PFS Events
You could try meetup.com; a website for people with similar interests to meet up. I used to be a part of a local meet up for D&D, and played weekly for several months.
I used to drove an hour each way to go to a weekly AD&D game. Lasted for several years. If you're willing to make the commute, there's likely PF or PFS games in London.
Do you have a local gaming store? A lot of gaming stores let people advertise games they are starting. Or you could even start up a Pathfinder Society event there.
Penandpapergames.com has a search engine set up so you can search for local gamers and games, and advertise yourself or your own games. That's how I found my current group.
Is there a college or university near you? Many Uni's have gaming clubs that you could join or even invite people from there to join your own game. The gaming club on my campus lets non-students attend. Conversely, if your local uni doesn't have a gaming club, you could start one! Heck, there's even a thread that lets you win free books if you put up advertisements for Pathfinder! Thread here
Where in England are you based?
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I've been running since about 1979, and over the years I've always found that the easiest way to handle all of these problems is for the DM to retain all character sheets between games and to regularly review them for problems every time they level up. Sometimes I find that people have shorted themselves and have extra skills, etc... to allocate, sometimes I find that people didn't get the math right and think they have more than they should.
In any case, I review all characters and must approve all concepts prior to the start of any campaign. I do not allow min/max characters, to the point where I will not allow a player to reduce more than a single stat below 10 and then only as low as 8. Another way to keep power levels from getting too out of hand is to eliminate the ability to ignore item creation prerequisites. All magic item creators must meet all requirements themselves, no cooperative creation. It keeps one person from taking brew potion and whipping out both clerical and arcane potions at an insane pace, etc...
In the end, it's your campaign, but the best advice I can give you as a veteran DM is to err on the side of less at all times. If you have any hesitation about a concept or option, then the answer should be no until you have better information, if at all.
Additionally, any player who says their concept is ruined by anything based on numbers and stats is pulling your leg. This is a role-playing game. You do not need a +1 to "this cool thing" in order to have that as a concept. People get too wrapped up in bonuses and feats and forget that it's all just a matter of choosing to act in a particular way. "Concept" is a roleplaying issue, not a character sheet issue.
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The reason I like it? +10 on disguise checks to look like ANY human! And you can take 10 on the roll! Need to impersonate the human sergeant of the guards? That's a minimum of a 20 disguise check, plus skill ranks (and +3 for class skill), plus cha mod. At 1st level with a 16 cha, we're looking at a 27 disguise roll to impersonate any human of the same sex (and only a -2 of the other sex); and that's the "average," you can gamble and get up to a 37.
I think you're giving this feat far too much credit.
The +10 is a bonus to making yourself look human.
Not to impersonating any human that ever lived.
Bob the Half-Elf: "Hi, my name's Bob. Can I join your merry band of 'humans-who-distrust-elves'?
<rolls with +10>
Surly Elf-hating Human: "Sure thing, Bob. Keep yer eyes peeled fer them stinkin fairies, they're everywhere..."
Bob the Half-Elf is s@$#-hot at convincing people that he's really 'Bob the Human', but every time he does this, he is still recognisably 'Bob', to everyone who knows him. If any of those people know that 'Bob the Human' is really a half-elf, then they aren't likely to be fooled.
If Bob the Half-Elf needs to impersonate some specific human, he can still do so, much better than other half-elves, because he can ignore the automatic -2 penalty, but this feat doesn't make him inherently better at impersonating the town guard, than if he were born human.