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423 posts. Alias of HalfOrcHeavyMetal.


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I'm quite partial to the theory of multiple Gods having access to the same portfolio, but because of that, they are ALL responsible for it.

If two or more Sun Gods start to go to war over total dominion of their Portfolio, you could end up with sweltering heatwaves, world-wide drought or even two suns, smaller and weaker, in the sky. And that's where the other Sun Gods, and the other Gods whose domains are now at risk or under dire threat move, potentially creating an all-in divine scrum to stop the conflict and causing all manner of divine and mortal chaos as the world reels under all this Godly power being thrown around and warping the world and it's denizens in the process.

Divine shenanigans and petty godling tantrums over having to share their 'toys' can be so much fun for a DM to use to really put the screws to a campaign, not just the PCs.


Futile, lonely bump? I know I am well behind most folks on this campaign, but I would appreciate some feedback on what others think of the 'rough' ideas.


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And they generally aren't part of the 'Core' of the game, but rather from fluff and 'expansion' material.

I can understand James and the rest of Paizo wanted to keep Golarion and Pathfinder a more 'pure' fantasy, but I do feel having Golarion be divided between two larger continents, one side very Eberron in that the playable characters there are divided by national and religious lines rather than racial ones, while the other side could have been very much the opposite, divided more along racial and political lines rather than religion or nationality, and the conflict between these two macro-societies along with their internal disputes with their member-nations, outside forces, the fall of Aroden and the like could have been used to prevent a WoW-like situation where the two big superpowers just bash away at each other and plunder everything smaller than them for resources and allies.


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Rysky wrote:
Set wrote:
And yeah, the humans being the only race to have multiple cultures and languages and nationalities and pantheons of gods, is kinda boring. A setting where two different elves or dwarves could follow radically different national or cultural standards, but not be mechanically different 'sub-races,' would be interesting.

Very, I try to avoid monoculture in my setting.

Though different languages would most likely be a logistics nightmare and fall under minutia that not a lot I suspect would appreciate and would hamper gameplay more than illustrate.

Eh, if you run with the Theory that Common is basically a polished pigeon language that everybody uses for trade and basic diplomacy, and national or racial languages are used for more complicated conversations, or just to stop random bystanders from other countries listening in, it makes sense.

I mean, the standard Golarion campaign has different racial languages for nearly every 'race' of Human, but everybody still speaks Common for simplicity's sake so that players and GMs don't have to spend all their class skill points in Linguistics just to be able to buy a loaf of bread from a merchant.

That said you raise a bloody valid point of over-complication, and that's something I am guilty of given less than half a chance. I think if Paizo actually did use a 'different nationalities' rather than 'different races', having Dwarven from one country and Dwarven from another be mostly identical, but the 'dialect' between the two could easily pin one Dwarf coming from an area that could raise eyebrows or cause swords to be drawn, which could be an interesting wrinkle for players trying to infiltrate a rival nation or get away from a homeland they don't believe in, or give a GM heart-failure when the PCs pick up on their Linguistic or Sense Motive checks and start to use in-universe reasons to start to dog-pile verbally on the Dwarf to figure out why he or she is in a region her 'people' normally shun or might be hostile towards.


I'd have argued that Half-Orcs only exist because of the chaos of the first meeting between Orcs and Men, the lingering radiant energies of the Underdark on the Orcs and the natural calamity occurring on the surface at the time allowed it to happen.

In the centuries that followed, the various Gods of the surface-world realized the danger the fecund and intensely fertile Orcs posed to their own species and made a concerted effort to divinely protect their favoured races from the curse of Orcish blood, but couldn't do anything to or for the already-existing Half-Orcs, who could breed true amongst themselves and could interbreed with both Orcs and Humans.

Hence, the Orc-held lands have small numbers of Half-Orcs who have interbred back with their Orc kin to the point they are barely distinguishable from their pure-blood kin to most outsiders, and in predominantly Human-populated territories, Half-Orcs exist either as unusually-coloured Humans or small villages and towns of predominantly Half-Orc populations in regions or nations where the 'diluting' of Human blood or having 'lesser' races around is looked down on by the majority of the population.

Bang. Half-Orcs exist without the R word being thrown around, having happened centuries (or longer) ago rather than yesterday and there's a reason why the entire planet isn't populated by Mongrelfolk, because the Gods saw what was going to happen and went "OH DEAR SWEET US, NO!" and slapped a divine curse on most playable races to prevent interbreeding, but some Gods and several Demon Princes and Devil Lords exploit loopholes in that 'curse' to create Cambions, Tieflings, Asimar and other, more exotic hybrids of mortals, outsiders and stranger combinations still.


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*deep breath*

Okay, these are just the things that absolutely bug me with the setting.

1) Not enough 'non-standard' races, ie the usual seven races, Halflings, Gnomes, Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, running around. I'd have preferred to see some historically traditional-enemies-of-the-players races having their own kingdoms and being world powers in their own right. A Hobgoblin empire that's remarkably forward-thinking and quite civilized ... but accepts slavery and expansionism and bigotry towards unregistered arcanists quite openly too. A nation-wide network of Kobolds who compete with the Dwarves for economic dominance of the metal and stone-based industries. Ogre Mages who run authoritarian but still honorable empires alongside Kitsune, Tengu and Humans, stuff that makes the players question who is really the monster here.

I wanted Paizo to shake the tree far harder than they did when they created Golarion, to step away from bored, tired and, I do apologise if this comes across as overly hostile, cowardly writing where Humans are inevitably the greatest good and the strongest power. Under-dogs are always far more enjoyable, IMHO, but having Humanity be divided not only by religion and territory, but also by how each nation, religious group and faction dealt with non-humans and their different faiths and societies would have been fascinating.

Do you ally with the strong economic power, even if they are non-human and have odd cultural quirks, or do you stand against them to be with your fellow man ... who may hate you for your religious beliefs and control of hotly contested resources? The question of the alien or the familiar should also be tempered with the actions of said alien and familiar, and should be something that players and GMs alike squirm on the hook when they're making their choices between the two in a situation where there's only a yes or no method of resolution.

Humanity is a pack of bastards at the best of times, and I'd have dearly loved to seen that explored far further and taken to the hilt, that the world of Golarion is a crap-sack, but Humans and the other 'default' races are no less crap-sack than any of the other denizens that live there.

2) Having pantheons made up solely of goodies and baddies. Having racial pantheons that work together against opposing racial pantheons, and then having other pantheons of multi-racial groups dedicated to the causes of Good, Chaos, Law and Evil would have been very interesting, especially if Gods might occupy places in two or three Pantheons at once, and might end up being the ambassadors or peace-makers if these Pantheons start to come into conflict or have rival members trying to claim sole dominion of a specific portfolio. A racial pantheon could have members running the gamut of all Alignments, and each pantheon, be their racial, multi-racial or alignment-based would then have a unique flavour to them that could be used heavily to create plot-hooks, tension between nations and religious groups as missionaries and evangelists run around and the various nations have to decide who can safely preach in their borders and who cannot ... and how to deal with troublesome cults and religions that threaten the nation's control of it's own people ...

Imagine the chaos of, let's say, four Elven nations that have between them three Elven Pantheons and a Mixed-Race Pantheon. Elf Nation A might worship a strict, xenophobic Pantheon that demands total obedience from all Elves, staying within the territory of the Elven Kingdoms and the eradication of mixed bloodlines of Elves and 'lesser creatures', and whose followers are given sanction to make it happen by force if necessary, while Nation B and C might worship both a second Elven Pantheon revolving around freedom, truth and the embrace of magic and the Mixed-Race Pantheon in an effort to connect with and uplift the other races, while Elven nation C also worships, along with nation D, the Third Elven Pantheon that only likewise doesn't like other races but isn't as adverse to them as the first Pantheon, but instead instructs their Elven followers to spread out and conquer the 'lesser' races from within, through diplomacy, economic and assassination-themed methods to 'save' the world from the machinations of the other Gods.

Boom, you've got a shifting dynamic structure to play around with. There's a mixture of religious and political intrigue, internal strife, the Elves aren't a one-note race of 'we live in tune with nature and are magical pretty folk' and there's no end to the plot-hooks.

And that's just four Elven kingdoms who may or may not be separated by terrain, other nations or just hotly-contested borders. That's not including their interactions with their neighbours, the problems of the people within those kingdoms and the machinations of those Pantheons squabbling with each other over followers, and the power larger groups of followers may grant a God or Pantheon.

3) This is a far more personal whine than any complaint about Paizo itself, but I would have dearly loved to have seen an entirely 'mongrel' nation have appeared as an actual, if minor, world-power, ruled and populated by Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Tieflings and other maligned and minor 'half' races, basically a mecca of trade and relative solace for the 'bastards' of Golarion, formed by former slaves, disenfranchised raiders and forward-thinking adventurers long ago and is now just as civilized, if slightly belligerent towards their ancestral 'enemies' than is truly necessary even at the best of times, as any of their neighbouring nations, which brings me to my final complaint ...

4) Nations being predominantly one-race with a minority of others is one thing, but seeing particularly older nations not having far larger numbers of other races annoys me. Having folks saying "I am Theyvian" not because they are humans or elves or whatever race lives there, but because they were born there. I'd have preferred to have seen a smattering more races that are far more multiracial than what we've got thus far, and to have nationality cause more issues for players travelling than their race.

An Elf from X may get more trouble from traders from Y because of their nationality rather than their race, while two Halflings from two different nations might see each other as more alien than the Gnoll from a third nation due to differing religious beliefs and social customs.

That said, these are basically my only real complaints with the setting that actively irk me.


Soooo ... after far, far, far too long away from these boards due to a shortage of funds, time and a rather complicated story involving three cats, a dog, a very hot Australian summer and my computer's fan, I'm finally back.

I've been DMing since ... 2013. Jesus. So much for my break and getting back to being just a player, but I've managed to convince one of the groups to take a break from our homebrewed world (Pathfinder, Words of Power magic system, no divine magic, all homebrewed races using the Advanced Races guide, etc etc) and step back into Golarion for a change of pace.

I love Sanctuary and all the races, campaign hooks and lore I made, but I need a break from my own stuff to recharge my creative batteries.

Where was I? Classes. Bah. My brain is faulty from a lack of sleep.

Thus far I've been asked to build five characters for the DM to peruse and then run together with the rest of the party's submissions to see which combination is going to work best for the campaign. It's a four person party and the DM has already given us permission to use the Recruit Feat for additional muscle if we absolutely cannot cover every 'base' with our array of PCs.

1) A Ratfolk Alchemist, basic version, who specializes with pistols, a morning star and healing potions, functioning as the Party's standard healer and a moderate damage-dealer, as well as the Party Face, or Assistant Party Face with the Cosmopolitan feat allowing him access to Diplomacy and Knowledge (Local) as class-skills. I'm actually quite eager to try this as I normally go for a Normal sized character and have a issue with smaller, slower races, and not being the party's combat power-house or conjurer of get-outta-jail-free magical shenanigans is going to be interesting. Joining the Pathfinders opens up great opportunities to sell, buy and barter for knowledge, trinkets and trade-routes from the more adventurous Pathfinders in the Lodge, after all.

2) Half-Orc Urban Ranger/Skirmisher Ranger. An old favourite combination of Class Archetypes I have used before to great effect, no magical abilities, a pet dog at her side and a list of bounties, people who owe her money or people who just has annoyed her enough that she's willing to play rough. Going for a Switch-Hitter build since it's generally very powerful, but focusing on, again, firearms rather than bows for the ranged weapon angle and a basic longsword for the melee angle. Going to build around being the party's go-to source for finding information in town, digging up trouble before it hits and being the bodyguard of our less-durable folks while the folks with beefier hitpoints tank the dragon with their faces. The Lodge offers an interesting place where she's not considered a muscled freak or a thug simply by dint of her appearance, or at least she'll be in the company of those to whom she's simply unusual rather than freakish or terrifying.

3) a Kobold Sorcerer with the White Dragon Bloodline. Short of both temper and size, but at least civil enough courtesy of the Cosmopolitan feat allowing him access to both Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (History) in addition to his native Class Skills in his eternal search to figure out how on Golarion a Kobold from a desert tribe was born with the blood of a Dragon from the frozen roof of the world! Access to the Pathfinder Lodges will hopefully mean less of the smooth-skins will be attempting to stab him or throw him out of the cities he will visit in the future to try and unravel the truth of his heritage.

4) Gillman Divine Defender Paladin with the Riverfolk and Slimehunter alternative racial traits, using medium armor and a rapier and medium shield to serve as the party's tank and backup healer. She'd be an interesting, if unorthodox, hunter of abominations and ancient threats, always looking for some hint of 'The Vile's' influences on the surface world, her people's name for the Aboleths, and rumors that several of the Runelords might have had pacts with The Vile has driven her to the one place where she hopes she can find not only information, but potential allies in her quest to scourge the world of The Vile's influence, if not The Vile themselves.

5) An Elven Oracle of Metal with the Tongue's Curse, to tie into the Starmetal angle of the campaign and provide a more durable healer who can stand shoulder to shoulder with the beefiest of meat-shields and potentially act as bodyguard to our magical artillery. Having the Oracle 'dealing' with a Celestial who is constantly with him and tends to 'help' during combat, meaning the poor Oracle can only speak in Celestial and is probably going to have to learn bluff to be able to speak via sign-language and improv to his team-mates during combat would also be hilarious to play up. Joining the local Pathfinder Lodge, if only to get the 'helpful' Celestial spirit to stop pestering his dreams with images of seven-pointed stars would simply be delightful for him.

Thoughts? Or should I push for a more stat/feat/trait heavy build before asking for advice?

Goblin Squad Member

Wish I could help guys, but I never got my invite. Good luck, and if it somehow pops up, I'll drop in and give you my best.

Goblin Squad Member

I think what we can all take from the lesson of Studio 38 is get a stage right to the cusp of completion and THEN think about hiring for the next stage.


Aaaaaaand it's back again.

Goblin Squad Member

Mounts, Combat Pets, Beasts of Burden to pull wagons, Vanity pets ...

And all of my yes to going out and capturing beasts to breed new abilities into the bloodlines.

The 'Badges' towards the end of that tree could be hilariously insane, requiring your players to go out and collect a vial of Dragons' blood to infuse into your 'Masterwork' 'Fighting' 'Combat' Dog-companion animal.

While it might be easier to hunt down and kill a chromatic Dragon, the pups would then take on the Chaotic/Lawful Evil nature of the Dragon.

Of course, getting the blood from a Metallic Dragon might be an adventure in and of itself, especially if you need diplomacy to get it ... or aren't afraid of trading with some of the vilest sons of b&%!@es in the region for the goods.

I'd personally have Mounts, Combat Pets, Beasts of Burden and Vanity Pets have hit-points, so it is literally possible to kill them.

But I would have it impossible to 'breed' them without a specific Stable/Stud-setup of some kind.

Basic setup might allow a bit of everything, but you're quickly going to want to specialise into one of the four 'arcs' of the path, and then find the route that you think will be best for you and the nearest friendly Settlement.

I'd assume that such creatures as player 'crafted' items would have 'keywords' worked into their breeding, a sort of random combination between the 'keywords' of the Parents to create offspring with mixed attributes.

Warhounds bred for 'Toughness' 'Courage' 'Thick Skinned' might have higher armor class, will saves and hit-points, making them excellent, if somewhat expensive at first if you can't breed enough to keep up with demand, allies for the local Guards to use when defending a Point of Interest or trying to hold back a Siege.

Horse bred for 'Speed' 'Speed' 'Endurance' (And no, that's not a typo) could be rather fragile when compared to horses bred for 'Strength' 'Combat' 'Toughness', but you'd have to catch them first, and with a double-speed bonus and an endurance bonus, that's going to be tough.

A Vanity Pet, let's say a Pseudo Dragon, bred for 'Intelligence' 'Friendly' 'Utility' might make an excellent familiar for a Wizard, as it would not only be affectionate (and thus might be more ammendable to certain commands) but the 'Utility' and 'Intelligence' keywords bred into it might also allow it to learn a 'trick' or two beyond what it normally could, allowing it to perform a single action or simple actions in combat, crafting or something else.

A 'Bard' running around with three dogs he's trained to do tricks would be an interesting feature for a Settlement, especially if you can perform talents, such as 'Perform' or 'Profession' or similar to actively help with a Development Index rather than actually making a physical item.


This post is two-fold.

First is to get the channel back up near the top of the page.

Second is to test this new set of Moderate Fortification armor I got.

http://tinyurl.com/mkbnv3k

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite wrote:
HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise wrote:
The fun thing with 'Epic' bugs in the testing phases of the games is that if there is one player, or one group of players, that are very good at finding bugs and/or crashing the game while finding bugs, you can immortalize them as NPCs and make it a fun/fond memory, rather than "Oh GOD why did we let that happen?"
Kind of like the "Leeroy Jenkins" of server wipe/crashes? Famous for all time? ;)

Pretty much. If it's suitably funny or epic, a team of NPC adventurers that has the title 'Dungeon-Bane' because the original PCs they were named after made a name for themselves with finding each and every single clipping, evade-bug and 'bottomless pit' bug in the Dungeons could be a hilarity with them bemoaning their fate as they are verbally denied access to a Dungeon by a Goblin in a foreman's outfit, little salutes and "wait, what?" moments for players who come in at a later date.


If you ended up with the Leadership Feat, who or what would be your Cohort, and what would you have your minions do?

Merisiel Sillvari wrote:
Rysky wrote:
What would you do if Kyra ascended to Empyreal Lord status?
She's already a goddess, so there would be no difference!

Wait what? I know I've been gone for several months but when did this happen?

Goblin Squad Member

*gnaws on fingernails* Oh please oh please oh please ...

Goblin Squad Member

The fun thing with 'Epic' bugs in the testing phases of the games is that if there is one player, or one group of players, that are very good at finding bugs and/or crashing the game while finding bugs, you can immortalize them as NPCs and make it a fun/fond memory, rather than "Oh GOD why did we let that happen?"

Goblin Squad Member

My thoughts on the 'Big getting Bigger' concept?

In Pathfinder Online, we might end up like the Romans in that there might be a finite limit that a Company or Corporation can hold successfully.

We have no 'world-wide' channel for them to communicate with, meaning they'll need a third-party program like Ventrillo or Mumble.

We have no 'global' Auction Houses for them to control. Attempts to monopolize will result in people simply moving to new Hexes with less oppressive markets.

The nail that sticks up gets hammered down. Mega-Companies are going to be that uppity Nail, and the big Company will have the better equipment, which makes them the targets for the more organised Bandit Clans and Mercenary Corporations.

I think, given Pathfinder's PvP Rules and Settlement buildings/PoI control mechanisms (as described thus far) that Corporations will only be able to grow so big before they literally become too big and too unwieldy to expand any further without obscene amounts of third-party mechanisms involved.

Most folks aren't going to be willing to invest the sheer volume of time and real-life money/resources into a game. The people that are that prepared are likely to form the 'Core' of a Company, and be a solid nucleus around which the Company forms, but the Company itself will likely cycle members at a reasonable rate, ensuring a slow growth interspaced with ego-clashes and 'bubbles' that cause the Company to lose members, ground and resources.

Goblin Squad Member

Now, watching FRANKIEonPCin1080p's Day Z machinima series, something has popped up repeatedly.

You gain an appearance based upon your actions. Heroic Players get a specific shirt and pants, Bandits all share a similar outfit, etc etc.

Should a 'Flag' basically skin a character with a generic 'outfit'? Basically, get a 'Thief' flag, your character adopts a generic costume fr the duration, or should it be a big, floating icon over the character's head that's basically saying "Pinata Here"?

Goblin Squad Member

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Now, eventually, when the 'Farm/Ranch' PoI or Building makes it into the game, here's a couple of thinks I would love to see make it into the mix.

Skills/Badges for 'crafting' animals. And no, I don't mean Doctor Moraue or however it's spelled, I mean breeding specific types of animals.

Player could specialise in 'fast breeding', resulting in faster 'generation' of livestock/mounts.

Player could specialise in 'multiple breeding', resulting in slightly higher 'spawns' of livestock/mounts.

Player could specialise in 'quality breeding', resulting in a slightly slower 'generation' of livestock/mounts with high stats/better quality resources harvested from them.

Players who dedicate themselves to breeding might even call upon adventurers for specific creatures from the wild to interbreed into their stock to create desired traits, or to recover specific plants or even magical essences to feed to their stock to create specific, short-lived effects when breeding the animals together to create something new.

High End 'Breeder'-focused Players might be able to produce Half-Dragon Mounts, or even Cattle, which could serve as powerful mounts for front-line combatants, or in the case of the cattle, a relatively cheap source of 'Dragon Hide' that doesn't involve waiting for a Dragon Escalation to happen.

Of course, that could also open the door to a Cowpocalypse as the Scaly Bovines, with their enhanced intellects, decide to rain fire and misery on their two-legged oppressors.

Goblin Squad Member

Same problem we have with Goblin Balls, Gnome Gnuts, Dwarf Danglers and the rest. Goblin Works is trying to avoid 'crude' humor being officially related to their product(s).

Goblin Squad Member

Egg of Potential?

Egg of Groteus also has an appeal, as Pharasma is probably keen on keeping any and all aspects of the God of the End from the world, and her clergy would probably do anything for the adventurers/mercenaries who delivered such unspeakably profane artefacts into their hands.

Goblin Squad Member

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Wouldn't that be hilarious.

Group of Elves start an escalation, local PCs go "Oh, okay, we'll ally with these NPCs."

Then Elves turn around and slaughter other PCs who are building a settlement in a Hex containing an Elven ruin, and start to build their own Settlement, populated solely by Elves.

Cue "Did that just f$@%ing happen?" from the allies of this nominally 'good' Escalation of Elf 'nationalists'. Congratulations, you've made an alliance with the Elves ... who will kill anyone from the other Races who sets foot on the sovereign ground of their former holdings ... because you're their ally, you'll just get a Trespasser Flag.

Whoops ....

Now what the above scenario begs to ask ... what penalties are there for breaking an Alliance with NPCs?

Goblin Squad Member

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Here's how I'd make an MMO.

Have the choices a character makes not go away, and be as unique as possible.

Be an a&+*#$$? It'll reflect in how the NPCs treat you in the future.

Be a nice guy/gal? Same again.

Kill everyone and everything in the room? Same again, the NPCs will know you as a kill 'em all type of person.

Use Diplomacy to get through? Same again.

Use Illusions and Charm spells? Same again.

Have gear be something that's useful but not character-defining.

Have players make everything that they'll need, rather than the teeth-grinding frustration of the RNG system, which only ever seems to sodomize the player base in an effort to make them play longer.

A setting where the pretty races are not always good, and the ugly races are not always bad.

Morally grey choices, in addition to the White Knight and the Black Assassin choices.

Your starting race decides your class, your nominal faction and your starting location, but once you finish the obligatory training chain-quest, you're free to head on over to the other side of the border and work on being their guy, rather than working for your starting faction.

Oh, hey, guess which developing MMO hits most of these wants of mine?

Pathfinder Online.

Don't fall into the pit that WoW's dug for the genre, guys. You've got a solid backing with the Pathfinder Setting, now it's just a case of getting everything sound mechanically. We believe in you, as the Kickstarter proved, as the furious debates on these forums prove, as we'll continue to prove in the future.

We know you won't let us down.

Goblin Squad Member

I must admit, if I could use diplomacy and the other 'talking skills' with NPCs, even Orcs and Kobolds, I would s@!# solid gold bricks in delight and build a shrine to Goblinworks out of them. Imagine the ability for merchants to literally barter their way into an alliance with a Hex controlled by NPC Orcs.

Suddenly, they don't have to deviate around the nominally-hostile Hex to reach the nearby Settlements, they lose some gold and goods for the bribes when they enter the Hex, but they also can get goods to market faster than their competitors, and if they get into trouble with bandits or the law, just pop back into the Orcs' Hex and watch Sir Doucheadin and Co get their asses thrashed by Grubyub's berserks.

And Kobolds. My god. Can you imagine hiring Kobolds to work your Mine PoI for your settlement? At the cost of food resources and making a law that 'protects' the Kobolds, they move into the PoI, becoming the NPC guards, and will trade you the Ore and Stone for Food and Luxury Goods (Booze, jewellery, etc), freeing up your players to either defend the PoI or expand into other Hexes.

Even more hilarious if you can gear them up. PoI guarded by Tucker's Kobolds would be hilarious, the gankers would never live it down, being ass-whupped by Kobolds.

There's also the non-evil sorts, like Half-Ogres, Faerie Dragons and NPC outposts of the PC races, NPC Bandits, Elf colonies, Dwarven mining crews, Halfling merchant caravans, that PCs could be able to trade, barter and create alliances with.

Admittedly, they won't be able to hold up to a sustained PC counter-attack or efforts, but they make a nice 'edge' for the Settlement who can boast a handful of 'Ambassador' focused players, vs the 'kick down the door and take the loot' Settlements that only focus on PvP and militant expansionism.

Goblin Squad Member

Ah, I did wonder about that.

Goblin Squad Member

Just want to say, thanks for weighing in on the various threads and topics, Mr Dancey and Mr ... Brutus? I know we get a little hot under the collar discussing potentials within the game, but I think it's mostly due to how excited we all are about Goblinworks Online.

Goblin Squad Member

True, but there's also the point that Settlements, once they reach a certain size/level of power, should take a look at sponsoring 'Child' or satellite Settlements, if only to foster good-will amongst their neighbours.

I love the idea that a pre-existing Settlement cannot deny new settlers the right to develop their own settlement without declaring a Feud (Costing Development Index resources and Rep/Alignment, possibly) or hiring Bandits/Player Killers to run the Settlers off their land.

That also creates an interesting situation where a Settlement that's trying to keep it's Rep/Alignment/DI Resources high might be forced to wait until the new Settlement is built to the lowest possible score, and then declare a War/Feud.

Also, for the people that don't care, there could be that 'sweet spot' where the new Settlement is vulnerable to attack, but built up enough that it would be much cheaper to take over than build a Settlement for yourself.

Goblin Squad Member

That I did.

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:

1) We get the thugs working against settlement B and blame it on settlement C so that we can foment a war between the two. We can then persuade B that because they are weaker than C they will lose unless they decide to join our alliance.

2) We get the thugs working against settlement B and blame it on settlement C so that we can foment a war between the two. We can then wait until the two have destroyed the best part of the reserves then step in and take both settlements.

3) We get the thugs working against settlement B and blame it on bandits so that we can persuade settlement B they need to hire our mercenaries to protect them.

Mildly hilarious derailment, but consider that everyone will be attempting to do this, as it's the smart money and mercenaries get paid, and then get out, heading for the next battlefield.

As the resources in the Hexes between the Settlement get sucked up faster than they can replenish, as the PoIs are destroyed in pitched battles, as the Settlements burn in siege and counter-siege, the winners stand atop the rubble, gazing out across a landscape covered in corpses, carrion-eaters and smoke from fires burning in the remains of once pristine forests, turn to each other and say.

"Thank the Gods we won!"

Goblin Squad Member

Now, rather than further derail a thread that's gone so far off the rails it's a train trying to be a submarine, I'm going to cherry pick a couple of lines here that made my brain tick over in an interesting way.

Ryan Dancey wrote:
GrumpyMel wrote:
Unless I'm missing something, you would pretty much create a catch-22 here Ryan for new organizations seeking to enter the game and establish a settlement or existing organizations seeking to recover from a lost settlement. In order to be effective in the things that are needed to begin to create a PC settlement you need to be a member of a company but if you are not already a member of a PC settlement you can't be a member of a company. See the problem?
I see that people who want to form a Settlement might do the required things while being a member of a PC Settlement.

Why would a Settlement want/not want members to eventually 'bud off' and form a new Settlement a few Hexes over?

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Pros:

1) Living next door to your Parents.

Assisting friendly PCs to build up a new Settlement, while still allowing them access to your training facilities, can encourage them to build a mutually beneficial Settlement of their own.

Settlement A helps Settlement B 'bud off'. Settlement A is focused on Warrior and Rogue-style training with access to a metal-rich mine Point-of-Interest (Referred to hereafter as a PoI). Settlement B opts to, rather than compete with Settlement A for the PoI and similar training halls/structures, focus on a Temple-Settlement, providing training for Clerics, with a side-line in alchemical items and reagents and even a Shrine to allow PCs to bind their spirits to a friendly Temple-Settlement. It's a win-win for both Settlements.

2) Burying the Hatchet.

Ambitious players will want to spread their wings, and rather than keeping them under your thumb, or exiling them, and either option causes bad blood, giving them supplies to start the new Settlement, as well as other forms of assistance can go a long way to building bonds of trust and mutual respect, especially if the new Settlement is allowed to self-govern, and the old Settlement just chips in with some 'Dad's advice' when a trouble crops up.

3) Leap-Frogging Settlement Building.

This might sound strange at first glance, but consider two Companies work well together, but they're just too large to conglomerate under a single Company banner, and the leaders each don't wish to relinquish control to somebody else. So Company A builds the first Settlement, while Company B assists but gathers resources for the next Settlement.

Then, Company B heads out, and Company A assists in turn, providing manpower and resources where Company B might be falling short. In time, the two Companies might be able to build multiple Settlements in their own style, selling the Settlements to Companies who may lack the time or skills to build their own, and become a powerful voice in local politics with their knowledge of each Settlement's building composition and vulnerabilities.

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Cons:

1) Like butter spread over too much bread.

Maybe a new Settlement might be in order, but your own isn't quite finished yet, and those uppity bastards are poaching some of your people to furnish their ranks, while your own Settlement is losing talented players, and the nearby Hexes are coming under additional strain as the two Settlements both harvest at full capacity, outstripping the Hexes' ability to replenish their resources.

Sooner or later, Floggit and Leggit Building teams are going to pop up, and perhaps even a war might loom on the horizon.

2) Cloned!

Great, the new Settlement is starting to take shape ... and it's exactly the same as yours. What the hell. We talked about this. No, stop, don't do ... gah.

But the other guys have decided since your setup works so well, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and they'd like to be rich and well-defended just like you. Sadly that means there's going to continue to be a shortage of training halls for specific archetypes, and once again, the resource nodes and PoI's you depend upon are going to get hammered.

3) How sharp the serpent's tooth!

People clash all the time, and in a game where getting the last word in is an assassination contract away, abrasive players will find themselves in a lot of hot water, and unfortunately, MMOs have shown that abrasive players are also ambitious players, wanting to be the very best, and often that means leading the rest of the abrasive, ambitious players, who all wish to lead as well.

Maybe your Officers were a bit too houlier-than-thou to your best Gathering Squad. Maybe your Bandit Crew were complete jerk-asses to the Wizards for the last time. Maybe you're just a despot and the cream of the crop know they can't dislodge you with your army of well-bribed cronies, so they'll up sticks and shuffle over to the next building site with an army of disgruntled folks at their backs.

Oh s#~!, you've got a Settlement going up full of people who'd dearly love to see you turned into the Golarion version of a Turducken and fed to the nearest apex predator.

Have I missed any points? I fear the lack-of-sleep and coffee-driven burst of thought has spluttered and faltered again.

Goblin Squad Member

I see two ways a 'Black' or Illegal/Illicit Market could function.

a) Within the Settlement.

First of all, the items need to be smuggled into the Hex itself, meaning that they have to get past the Border Guards, then the Settlement Guards, then random passer-by PCs and to the 'Smuggler' Building, which could be a privately owned tavern, a warehouse or even Stronghold itself if the Controlling Faction, or a member of the Controlling Faction, is involved directly.

Then you'd have to sell the items without arousing suspicion.

Obviously, pre-arranged 'codes' such as 'A barrel of Three-Striped Salmon' might be code for 'a crate of skooma', enabling specific items to be bartered openly without giving Guard or simply nosy PCs any visual clues.

This has the advantages of protecting the Smugglers and their Buyers from being targeted by hostile Bandit-Clans and random Monsters, but has the supreme disadvantage of being surrounded by other PCs who might be able to attack you on sight if you're fingered by the Guards and get the Criminal Flag.

b) Within a Wild Hex.

More likely than the first option, a Wild Hex might have a very specific Hideout where the Smuggling Ring sends out coded letters to known and trusted buyers, who make the trip every RL Month to trade and barter the illegal goods, side-stepping border controls to trade outside of the Hexes in the relative safety of a 'hidden stronghold' that some randomly wandering twit isn't going to find easily.

The downside is that the Buyers then have to find a way to smuggle the goods back into their own settlement, or through a Hex that has strict Contraband laws and strong border-patrols, but for a price there may be Merchant-type PCs who specialize in smuggling who'll be willing to get the goods inside your doors using their own heavily-modified wagons.

Goblin Squad Member

Someone who believed they were exceptionally capable, but tempered that with a profound respect for the rights and the feelings of others

Without a doubt. The other personality type you describe is somebody I have nothing but a deep-seated loathing for. I would dedicate obscene amounts of resources to trip this person up, and have done so in real life, exposing their exploitive nature to their co-workers and ensuring their social isolation, which crippled their ability to gain 'power' in that arena and forced them to eventually leave and find a new job.

I'm sorry, it's just exploitive people aggravate me and make me wish I hadn't sworn to non-violence in life years ago.

Goblin Squad Member

HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise wrote:
such as Orcs, Hobs and Bandits,

And the very next poster is Pax HOBS ...

If thought I had to call your name three times in a row for you to appear, or is that just Beetlejuice?

Goblin Squad Member

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Actually, that raises an interesting question on Crafting Badges and player-made crafting/refining kits/booths/buildings.

How hard would it be to give players the option to pick badges out of a selection that might grant them the ability to refine a lower-grade Ore into a medium-grade metal, or a medium-grade herb into a high-grade component?

What about a gathering badge that can allow the player to increase the amount they can harvest from a node, at the cost of lowering their chance of getting a higher 'grade' of material?

Would it be worth-while to pursue badges that might allow your character to gain some quirky abilities in their gathering skill-tree to add some variety to what people can bring back from the wilds, the mines and the farms?

And what about Kits/Refining Buildings? Would it be worth-while to have Settlements being able to tweak their structures to take advantage of a plentiful but low-grade vein of precious ore nearby to up their % of refining higher-grade finished goods from a bulk of lower-grade materials? Should it be allowed, given that control of a high-grade vein would provoke outright war between settlements.

Goblin Squad Member

Certain types of alcohol could have extreme effects on development Indexes.

Beer, Ale, Mead Wine and specific Spirits might not be so bad, but as you increase the alcohol content, the alcohol might negatively affect Development Indexes as alcoholism and the side-effects of drinking increase.

Don't forget, alcohol is technically a depressant. It might mellow people out, but in large doses it can cause a variety of short- and long-term problems. Specific alcohols might be banned because they affect the Development Indexes in a way a controlling faction may not like.

Weak Alcohols might make it easier to relax (upping Morale Development Indexes) and loosen morales (upping Crime Development Indexes) and provide a good source of trade (upping Trade Development Indexes) and gold from tithes/taxes.

Stronger Alcohols might have a relatively minor increases to the Morale Development Index, but have a much higher cost in terms of the Crime Development Indexes. Meaning that you've got to increase taxes on them to lower their introduction into the Settlement, or ban them altogether.

Yet these 'stronger' Alcohols might be an excellent form of currency, or can be used by individuals to barter with NPCs such as Orcs, Hobs and Bandits, to whom a rising Crime Development Index is a boon, not a curse.

Just some random thoughts bouncing around in my head.

Goblin Squad Member

Narcissistic Trait
Self-Sufficiency: 1.00
Superiority: 0.00
Exhibitionism: 0.00
Exploitativeness: 1.00
Vanity: 0.00
Entitlement: 1.00

I got a 3 ....

And I got a 3 again on the Psychopath quiz ....

Oh my God, I'm Flutteryshy ...

Goblin Squad Member

Wouldn't most new players be 'Low Rep' to begin with, in addition to be nominally allied with NPC Factions?

I'd argue that setting a 'Low Rep' Player to a 'Trespasser' status, with the Trespasser Status or Flag allowing you to be S.A.D.'d once by the controlling faction without a Rep Penalty, would be an excellent method to encourage people to join an 'allied' Company or Guild, at least at the start, and work their way from there.

If there's a 'Criminal' Flag (*Don't lose rep for killing them) and a 'Heinous' Flag(*actually gain rep for killing them), why not the 'Trespasser' Flag as a 'not a K.O.S. target, but not trusted either' flag that the other players can look at and go "hmmmmm...."

Do you risk trading with this Vagabond and possibly earn yourself a place on the local S*~* List, or do you instead shun them? Or do you offer them a place in a 'Place Holder' Company to help them intergrate into the game and give them a chance to understand the local Hex/Controlling Faction's Laws and social customs?

*As I understand these two flags working at this stage/phase.

Goblin Squad Member

Random Idea:

Unguilded or 'Un-affiliated' Players are a resource just waiting to be tapped, correct?

How hard would it be to code 'flyer' boards in the NPC settlements where 'similarly aligned' Player Factions can advertise their Companies.

Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, Neutral and Neutral Evil Companies in the Bandit NPC starting area.

Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, Neutral, Neutral Good, Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral in the Crusaders of Iomedae (spelling?) NPC starting area.

Lawful Evil, Lawful Neutral, Neutral and Neutral Evil in the Hellknight NPC Starting Area.

Since the Starting areas of each group will offer their own 'take' on how the game will be played, and presumably we'll get a 'joining X-NPC Faction, a coalition of bandits, murderers and slavers' vs 'joining Y-NPC Faction, an order of Infernal Knights and other Devil-worshipping fanatics' vs 'joining Z-NPC Faction, an order of Crusaders of Good, a fractious alliance of many Religions and Nations focused upon stopping the Abyssal Breach from spreading', helps any new players who are not familiar with Pathfinder, Golarion and/or the lore of the setting from trying to make a CE Rogue in the Hellknight faction or a LG Paladin amongst the Bandits.

Anyone who insists on being Unaffiliated is warned that without the backup of a Company or Guild is taking a great risk, and no doubt Settlements will watch Unaffiliated PCs like hawks.

You might even get S.A.D.s from the controlling Faction if they set their Laws up that 'vagabonds' (Unaffiliated players) do not grant rep loss for S.A.D.s in their Hex.

Of course, if the PC in question is willing to, in lieu of payment of the S.A.D., join one of the 'trainee' Companies sponsored by the Controlling Faction, Trainee Companies that exist as a loose support-group that helps new or casual players within the Hex gain friends and give them a familiar setup, a 'Guild' with a clear chain of command, that can either direct them to mutual benefit with the Controlling Faction of the Hex, or can identify potential problem PCs, who can then be tagged as 'Exiles', meaning that their presence in the Controlling Faction's Hex flags them up as 'Hostile' (Red flagged) or 'Dangerous'(Orange flagged) to the Controlling Faction and their allies.

Goblin Squad Member

We also don't know if the rep mechanic may be flexible enough in some situations.

I'm an unaligned PC wandering by and I see a bunch of merchants being attacked by a group of guys in black cloaks, my first instinct is to run over and defend the merchants.

After the Black Cloaks have been run off, the merchants show their gratitude by giving me ... a slave.

Oh jeebus fark, I just saved Slavers from a group of Paladins.

Not only did I just get a massive rep-hit for running in and attacking without a S.A.D. or a declaration of war, but I 'fought' Lawful Good (High Rep) players and then 'accepted' a gift that gives me the Hienous Flag.

Now, this is an exaggeration to be sure, but Low Rep and Flagged doesn't mean an absolute K.O.S., but it does mean I am going to watch your ass like a hawk.

If your name is that of a known Griefer, you can be damn sure I'm going to shadow you and see where you go. Who knows, you might just lead me to your Stronghold, so I can go back to town, tell your victims where you're shacking up and come back with the required amount of torches or pitchforks.

If you're a bandit ... maybe you're on your way to town to try and pay off your bounty. Maybe you've just raided a caravan. Maybe you've tried to leave the Bandit Company and they've punished you by using Mechanics to flag you up so that you get killed and lose everything you're carrying. Assuming you don't look like you can murder me with a thought, I'll approach you, hand on my weapon, but I'll talk to you, at least at first.

Mouth off, you're dead. Attack me, you're dead. Talk to me ... you'll live.

I'd argue that unless you've physically seen a 'Red' Target commit a crime it might pay twice to avoid outright slaughter. While the game won't punish you for the slaying of a Criminal, At-War or Heinous-flagged Player, you might get more out of it by either S.A.D.ing them, or offering them a hand and getting a potential ally or favour out of them at a later date.

Goblin Squad Member

And forwarding this to my friends on WoW who have expressed an interest in PF-Online. Thanks, Avena, I would have missed this otherwise!

Goblin Squad Member

Perhaps the 'Exile' and 'Trespasser' flags only have a negative effect on your character if you're spotted by one of the Controlling Players/Companies of the Hex?

Literally, you're only able to be attacked by these Companies unless they are willing to pony up the gold-cost to have a permanent bounty put on your head.

Think of the 'Exile' Flag as a 'At War' flag that only applies within a specific Hex or cluster of Hexes.

Think of the 'Trespasser' Flag as a Flag that notifies people that the Controlling Faction doesn't want 'your kind' in their settlement, which might make them leery of trading with you for fear of being tarred with the same brush. It also makes it easier for the Controlling Faction to identify you and then either ask you to move along, or S.A.D. you for the 'privilege' of coming into their territory without a rep-loss to themselves.

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
I suspect for many it won't even be low rep that triggers the attack but merely a matter of the company or settlement colors you are flying. Part of company xyz? must be a griefer or a jerk sort of thing

Bolded for emphasis.

Companies that make a name for being a$#%##$s and going out of their way to trip up people for 'teh lulz' might have the highest rep in the game through mechanics manipulation, but they'll still be NBSI to everyone else, and had best hope they can find loopholes to keep themselves from being flagged up as a Trespasser or At-War when they enter Hexes they don't control.

Goblin Squad Member

Low Rep strikes me as somebody I won't want to trust with something important, but for a Company or Settlement who is asking people to do things that will lower their Rep, I can fully see them turning around and offering big, high-risk jobs to 'their' Low Rep people purely to help bump them up the Rep-Ladder as a thank you for 'taking one for the team'.

Goblin Squad Member

Realistically, unless you're flagged with either the Criminal or Heinous Flag, I doubt you'll find most people willing to shoot you on sight.

Give you fair warning to get the hell out of 'their' territory (unless you're trespassing, which might cause other flags, depending upon how Goblin Works decides to enforce that mechanic) and a set time limit.

After that time limit expires, they'll throw a S.A.D. at you, essentially a fine. Refuse to pay, it's go-time. Pay, and well there's not much they can do to stop you loitering, you've basically paid your way into the area.

So, again, unless they're trying for a Low-Rep, most folks are gonna be in the Not Red Don't Shoot category for fear of getting Criminal-flagged in a 'Settled' Hex, and in a Wild Hex where you might be able to get away with it, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Combat could attract the attention of monsters, or worse still, other players.

Two groups fighting to the death weaken each other to the point that a third group can just sit back in stealth, wait until they've battered each other enough and just open up with a barrage, wipe out the healers and mop up the stragglers.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh, agreed.

But imagine if Paizo and Goblin Works can institute their PvP 'rules' in the manner that they wish, in a mechanically-sound method the encourages declarations of war and 'agreed-to' PvP in 'civilised' Hexes, and punishes the 'kill everything that's not me' mindset that the /Chan/ crowd/mindset with slower, or gimped, leveling of skills and being outright banned from most NPC and PC settlements.

What's the point of sitting on hundreds of gold's worth of gear if you can't do jack s@~@ with it? All you're doing is stockpiling loot for the Bounty Hunters/Assassins to cash in when you eventually become a big enough of a pest that people will finally decide to do more than pimp-slap your Criminally-flagged ass and put official bounties out on your head.

People who go around slaughtering other players are suddenly fighting against everything in the game, rules, leveling, npcs and pcs alike.

Good-aligned Escalations also offer a nice way to bend such players over the proverbial barrel. We are near an area where there's a heap of Crusaders running around, after all.

If they can pull that off, I think that Pathfinder Online will kick the trend of 'FFA MMO' Sandboxes and PvP will only be initiated if you're A) a career bandit or B) going to war against other Settlements/Companies over resources, territory or control of some other prize.

Goblin Squad Member

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Thing with World PvP and the 'sole server' plan for Pathfinder Online?

People who run around saving people are going to be treated like kings and local heroes, for in a World-PvP sandbox, somebody who sees you bleeding out, runs over and heals you and then helps you get back to town is going to be a person everybody wants in their Company, or at least on their friends list, while the people who run around slaughtering everything that twitches will become the server's pinata, hunted down day after day, week after week, until they abandon their character and roll a new one ... with years of grinding ahead of them to reach the power they once had, while their victims keep on chugging along, well ahead of them now.

Who're you gonna trust? Fantasy-World Superman or Fantasy-World Joker? My money's on the guy who sees me weak and helpless and doesn't immediately run over and turkey-slap me to death.

Goblin Squad Member

I will say this, if nothing else, the responses to this thread will help cut down on any of the design department attempting to make Seoni-like outfits ...

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Avari wrote:


Virtual world gaming, as Ryan has indicated, could very well be the "new cinema", as important to the 21st century as film was to the 20th. But it will never get there as long as this mentality remains "de facto".

Disturbingly, imagine if it does and these antics are considered 'normal'.

Then again, I'm hoping towards the end of the 21st century, we'll have holo-rooms for gaming and actual nerve interfaces for our games.

Let's see how many people like the Penis Brothers when they get the actual sensation to go along with their 'lulz'.

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
The sad fact is though that roleplayers will make up a small percentage of players.

Ah ... what're you basing that assumption on, Steel? Given the nature of these boards, I'd be inclined to believe that it'll be all RPers, just with people going for PvP content at the same time.

Goblin Squad Member

Although it's a single-player game, Skyrim is always epic, especially if you have the PC version (Glorious Master Race platform ... *gigglesnorts* yeah, no!) and can mod the hell outta it, you get a lot, and I do mean a lot, of replay value.

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