How do you feel about cultural integration in Open-construction MMO's? (Discussion not proposal)


Pathfinder Online


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This isn't a suggestion, more of a proposal for your internal debate.

What if the game allowed for an interaction with the so called "Monster races" (Gnolls, Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds, Ect) and went a step further.

So a guild builds a town nearby (Assuming in-depth player building), and it grows due to various resources in the area being convenient. the idea of NPC monster races, even whole tribes, not having any impact based on this town sprouting up from the ground with people inside living a presumably better standard of living is sort of irritating.

Consider the large houses instead of tents or shacks, Taverns, and pubs as opposed to campfires, and the trade of exotic and desirable materials and tools. Shouldn't these qualities encourage portions (Small or large) of the native population to attempt to integrate into our 'Pathfinder society'... or even just adapt some of the advanced concepts employed by the comparably high-tech, high-convenience, luxurious lifestyles of the new towns their primitive cultures?

How about cultures which don't yet have much contact with the Civilized races, those who are so far out in the wilds that trade is rare for them, how do they acquire their technologies, and how would they react to new technologies in their path?

I'm curious, is anybody else intrigued by this though process in open-build games?

Goblin Squad Member

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Hi Dustyboy,

I am intrigued and interested in such granular details. There has been some talk and speculation about the possibility of aiding "escalations" (PfO's take on dynamic monster spawns that increase and expand if not dealt with). That Is about as close to what you are talking about as I have seen here.

I also feel like those kind of monsters are a little too savage to build and maintain too much complicated infrastructure. They might see it and want it, but when they do take it, it quickly degenerates into ruin due to ill use and lack of maintenance. They want shinnies and they will trade for or take them, but they aren't good at making or maintaining them when they mostly organize in small clan size groupings.

Interesting and cool idea though if their culture and power could grow and evolve due to nearness of more advanced peoples. They could become more and more dangerous with higher birth rates and better weapons.


Bringslite wrote:

Hi Dustyboy,

I am intrigued and interested in such granular details. There has been some talk and speculation about the possibility of aiding "escalations" (PfO's take on dynamic monster spawns that increase and expand if not dealt with). That Is about as close to what you are talking about as I have seen here.

I also feel like those kind of monsters are a little too savage to build and maintain too much complicated infrastructure. They might see it and want it, but when they do take it, it quickly degenerates into ruin due to ill use and lack of maintenance. They want shinnies and they will trade for or take them, but they aren't good at making or maintaining them when they mostly organize in small clan size groupings.

Interesting and cool idea though if their culture and power could grow and evolve due to nearness of more advanced peoples. They could become more and more dangerous with higher birth rates and better weapons.

I'm amazed at the potential of the escalation procedure.

Personally i've been opposed to strict-behavioural patterns based on race and always perceived the pathfinder racial dichotomy as circumstantial, Elves and dwarves never could get along with the "Savage races" and therefor generally cut them off, even when finding new tribes, Civilizing even the less intelligent races shouldn't be impossible, though i guess religion could get a part of it, For example Gnolls tend to worship their chaotic evil god of strength and warfare, making those packs less likely to succumb to the ideas of centralization. But orcs actually tend to worship Azmodeus amongst others, making them admittedly a hilarious potential for integration to become vicious capitalists and town guards to start (Love of law and strength), before the melting pot effect (Some orcs starting to love pelor for example)

I'm more interested in seeing the individuals joining towns and setting up shop... even as dialogueless wanderers of the street and pub-goers, Or even up to the point where players may live in a monstrous town and have access to their racial architecture. Frontiers feel more like frontiers when the exotic elements of an area are shown in daily life.

On a side note, gnolls might be in a town if they started mercing themselves out as guards, or trading slaves for construction, early in the town's existence.

Goblin Squad Member

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Though you did specifically say you weren't asking the devs to make this happen, unfortunately it seems like something that won't be implemented at all in this particular game. The reason is that, by the time they roll it out, all of the settlements will have already been long established except for a few groups struggling along the edges of the map and destroying and rebuilding smaller settlements in the least valuable areas.

Now, the simple availability of monstrous race NPC's or even PC's can't be ruled out. I'm just saying the idea of local tribes interacting with our fledgling settlements is... unlikely.

Goblin Squad Member

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Pax Shane Gifford wrote:

Though you did specifically say you weren't asking the devs to make this happen, unfortunately it seems like something that won't be implemented at all in this particular game. The reason is that, by the time they roll it out, all of the settlements will have already been long established except for a few groups struggling along the edges of the map and destroying and rebuilding smaller settlements in the least valuable areas.

Now, the simple availability of monstrous race NPC's or even PC's can't be ruled out. I'm just saying the idea of local tribes interacting with our fledgling settlements is... unlikely.

Has it changed? The devs have said that they plan on "moving" resource nodes and or changing the type of the nodes to make it where what is a prime location today, may not be so tomorrow.

This leads me to believe we may actually see what was similar to Boom Towns, during the Silver and Gold Rush of the mid-1840s.

Goblin Squad Member

Goblinworks have some vestiges of what you suggest; albeit we need to discriminate what is currently envisioned (linked to do-able according to priority, cost-effective and schedule).

1. Escalations

When the Demon is at Your Door

We know these will be important PvE content for:

i. Adventurer characters (explore and experience River Kingdoms world: Land and fantastical denizens)
ii. Monster-Slayer specialists?
iii. Extra push of Wilderness vs Civilization at group level
iv. Carrot of feeding PvE'er gamers into gaining artefacts for their settlement's boon. Linking i. to iii.

Blunt summary.

2. Alignment?

The possibility exists that different fantastical denizens will fall into the Alignment compass and react accordingly to our own character's alignments as either Friendly, Neutral or Enemy? This would be quite cool. Further Friendly + Escalation -> encouraging it to grow and spread and eventually invade your enemy's settlement due to Alignment differences? Conceivably it would be interesting if in a party adventuring different mobs go for different aligned characters as part of their smart AI "target priority"?

Dustyboy wrote:
How about cultures which don't yet have much contact with the Civilized races, those who are so far out in the wilds that trade is rare for them, how do they acquire their technologies, and how would they react to new technologies in their path?

3. Further Interaction?

We'll be adding new races regularly until we've added all the player character races from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game core rulebook (and of course we'll also be thinking about additional races, too). We'll also be adding more roles, and all the support content those roles need—the gear, the weapons, the armor, the magic items, and specialist equipment. That will include things like animal companions, spellcasting systems, and other features that players expect for those roles.

So we will eventually see more races as playable (and more roles):

Dwarves (MVP)
Elves (MVP)
Humans (MVP)
Gnomes (Crowdforged)
Half-Elves (-)
Half-Orcs (-)
Halflings (-)

These we can assume will all be of a standard: Any race any role any group any alignment?

Dustyboy wrote:
What if the game allowed for an interaction with the so called "Monster races" (Gnolls, Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds, Ect) and went a step further.

We'll see these as "mobs" and NPC's initially and interact initially only as above. I think via Escalations and quests and lore we'll hopefully eventually see more "interaction" types of this kind, but imho that PvE content will always serve the role of background to the main drama itself of players themselves, good though it may be (imo).

What about:

1. Limited playability by numbers of players at any one time? (ie limited access via ratio in game at any one time)
2. Limited alignment options and "special" roles to fulfil?
3. Could we get such players acting as AI-chiefs with utility to move around the Escalation mobs more hands-on via a few master-players controlling these NPCs/Mobs?
4. How would Monster races fit in? My theory is that Monsters are distinct from characters due to a more fixed nature whereas characters nature is more flexible and more growth can occur independent of that basic "nature"?

Previously:

3. Will Goblins be a playable race or at least a "limited playable" race in some way, ever?

3: I think yes almost certainly. When, unknown. How, unknown.

Via the

Monster Cast:
All Crowdforger Alpha backers will be given the opportunity to take part in monster casting for Pathfinder Online. Monster casting is a pool of players from which we will draw participants in various monster-based events in the campaign. Participants will be able to play the roles of the monsters needed for the campaign event and will be given direction by the Goblinworks staff on playing these monsters. Being in the monster casting pool is currently the only way that players will be able to play monsters while playing Pathfinder Online. This is a special privilege and not a right—if it is abused by a member of the monster casting pool, this privilege will be taken away.
for alpha backers there may be some dev run events for the alpha backers to operate monsters. That's all theory atm however.

4. Summary:

1. Player-Driven Characters = Main Actors
2. Dev-Designed Content = Background, Setting, Supporting Cast
3. Monsters-driven-by-players = Minor Actors supporting 1. and 2.

Goblin Squad Member

I have always been interested in the idea of recruiting non standard races for your settlement or maybe even PoIs. One way it could be done is for there to prerequisites for recruiting npc creatures into a settlement. 1) The settlement's alignment must be within one step of the alignment of the npc group they want to recruit. 2) The settlement then is required to obtain an as yet undefined "npc" resource. This could take the form of a signed oath of loyalty a mercenary contract or perhaps the settlement must build a POI in a hex that already contains NPCs of the desired type. 3) Once the resource is obtained then the settlement must build a specific structure depending on the type of npc it wishes to attract. For example a goblin shanty town, kobold warrens, dwarf clan hall or a fey grove. Once built the settlement may recruit these NPCs as specialized workers guards or troops.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I love the concept, but I don't see any way to have it implemented such that more than a few players in a MMO can interact with it.


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Pax Shane Gifford wrote:

Though you did specifically say you weren't asking the devs to make this happen, unfortunately it seems like something that won't be implemented at all in this particular game. The reason is that, by the time they roll it out, all of the settlements will have already been long established except for a few groups struggling along the edges of the map and destroying and rebuilding smaller settlements in the least valuable areas.

Now, the simple availability of monstrous race NPC's or even PC's can't be ruled out. I'm just saying the idea of local tribes interacting with our fledgling settlements is... unlikely.

I'm not trying to push for it, quite frankly i'm only rudimentary in coding and I see how much work and testing would be required to see this happen. I'm scoping our peers for opinions.

Bluddwolf wrote:


Has it changed? The devs have said that they plan on "moving" resource nodes and or changing the type of the nodes to make it where what is a prime location today, may not be so tomorrow.

This leads me to believe we may actually see what was similar to Boom Towns, during the Silver and Gold Rush of the mid-1840s.

"]

God I hope so, the best lesson learned from eve is that you can inject actual sociological and economic theories into MMORPGs and see a response to them

DeciusBrutus wrote:
I love the concept, but I don't see any way to have it implemented such that more than a few players in a MMO can interact with it.

That might be true, though i was considering it more as an automated thing.

For me I never understood how the same tribe of harpies stood outside of Orgrimmar for so long without even a single defector into the major metropolis in world of warcraft. though that is a theme park so i gave it leniency as such. But a game that says it has classes to deal with civilian life, such as merchants and blacksmiths, to reflect the necessary requirements for even a primitive tribal people, and as such that they might be willing to trade, or might seek opportunity in the larger world.

Goblins are the easiest example of this, Goblins want shinies and blow things up, Goblins are the perfect NPC adventurers if you ask me, because they just go underground and grab everything, assumedly selling anything not of value for shinies... but to who? The only viable options for goblins to make sales with seems to be humans, and their ilk.

Then you have Hobgoblins and Gnolls, the slavers. Who do they sell their slaves to and for what cause? It to me seems easier to say that they are simply eating their humanoid captures than selling them.

Kobolds, they serve dragons. Dragons are of so many alignments that Kobolds could have any motivation, though it's usually shiny.

In pathfinder we do see some relevance of the lore of monsterous creatures unable to fend for themselves or fit in wih their own communities. Half-Orcs are one such race, Ratfolk have many sewer communities, Brownies also take shelter in civilized homes. Tieflings, Half-ogres, Dhampir, Catfolk, Changelings, and Kitsune are all races who take shelter in the settlements of the core races, amongst others.

It's even presumed in certain cities, such as ports and large frontier cities, that other races also take shelter as the boundaries of Xenophobia often collapse when capitalism takes hold

AvenaOats wrote:

Goblinworks have some vestiges of what you suggest; albeit we need to discriminate what is currently envisioned (linked to do-able according to priority, cost-effective and schedule).

1. Escalations

When the Demon is at Your Door

We know these will be important PvE content for:

i. Adventurer characters (explore and experience River Kingdoms world: Land and fantastical denizens)
ii. Monster-Slayer specialists?
iii. Extra push of Wilderness vs Civilization at group level
iv. Carrot of feeding PvE'er gamers into gaining artefacts for their settlement's boon. Linking i. to iii.

Blunt summary.

2. Alignment?

The possibility exists that different fantastical denizens will fall into the Alignment compass and react accordingly to our own character's alignments as either Friendly, Neutral or Enemy? This would be quite cool. Further Friendly + Escalation -> encouraging it to grow and spread and eventually invade your enemy's settlement due to Alignment differences? Conceivably it would be interesting if in a party adventuring different mobs go for different aligned characters as part of their smart AI "target priority"?

Oh god, this is similar to something i'm designing from the ground up starting with my mission statement (Just changed majors from engr to Game design) Though my system was way bulkier and would emcompass a 2d topscroller (Went by variable strings of personas based on regional background, profession, allegiance, and alignment. Where quests would be generated and all resources were finite. I wont go into full detail but I can send you the synopsis if you like that kind of thing, I personally have been writing theoretical mechanics for fun for years.

Dustyboy wrote:
How about cultures which don't yet have much contact with the Civilized races, those who are so far out in the wilds that trade is rare for them, how do they acquire their technologies, and how would they react to new technologies in their path?

3. Further Interaction?

We'll be adding new races regularly until we've added all the player character races from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game core rulebook (and of course we'll also be thinking about additional races, too). We'll also be adding more roles, and all the support content those roles need—the gear, the weapons, the armor, the magic items, and specialist equipment. That will include things like animal
...

Well i'm out of room to quote so

On the "More playable races" That's not my interest, since start-gate balance is always a key issue in sandboxes, and a drow is not quite on par with a gnoll... I'm more interested in the illusion of a living world.
The last great (Impactful) stride i saw for this was probably in Oblivion, in which NPC's had daily lifecycles. Finding them in different places doing different things at different times on different days, it must have been a headache to nail down but it made the game feel so much more alive and immersive.

On the Monster Casting, it sounds fun and is definitely a step in the right direction. I would love to be a warlord for some strange cult.

As for the summery, you've about stated where I stand as well, But scenery does impact how you feel playing a game. Games in which all the NPCS stand in the same place or patrol the same rout all day are now flat and dull. But games who have even life cycles have lost a bit of that chip. For me the problem is the predictability of A.I., For example my favorite quest in Diablo 1 was the one in the catacombs where you find the cowering goatman, who sends you to retrieve an item and then attempts to ambush you. it was unpredictable for its time

I lost much of my love of MMO's during world of warcraft, seeing numbers become larger than community activity, and seeing every plot turn a mile away, the game didn't seem authentic.

TL:DR, The RPG industry as a whole has not made significant progress in Immersive cultural scenery in a decade. NPCs are often predictable, and predictable makes an experience feel more computerized.

Goblin Squad Member

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@Dustyboy: Goblinworks devs (GW) has ideas somewhat leaning towards what you say where different hexes sort of form their own culture and biographical history. But evidently it is a long long way off from the minimum viable product at day 1 of early enrollment (EE).

In this way, each hex will become unique over time, gaining a story of its own that's formed from the actions of the players. People will know how certain features of the land were created, and those memories will invest the place with much more value to the world than mere random buildings would ever generate.

Different hexes (Settlement, Wild, Monster etc) -> Different Geography and features (Dungeons: Lairs, Ruins, Caverns) -> Different Escalations

In term of lot of these such as dungeons likely won't be in EE for a good while it seems.

Hopefully there will be that fractal inspection for them for example:

1. Skill -> locate dungeon (spawns)
2. Skill -> monster slaying, traps, psychological toughness of party members ability scores to avoid adverse affects of fear, anger, hunger, tiredness => IE Survival skills as well as combat skills in dungeons
3. The reason for this is to decrease the skilled population who can take on dungeons and therefore different types of dungeons perhaps have different amounts of mystery for adventurers to discover (lore, magical and rare items that wizards crave etc or awakening a disaster of a long-slumbering monster...).

Dustyboy wrote:
NPCs are often predictable, and predictable makes an experience feel more computerized.

This helps with reducing predictability of being an adventurer I think.

The limits of AI, especially in an MMO game, I think hopefully this niche can be filled by actual player-player-driven interactions and relationships. But for the setting to be more interesting, perhaps the monster cast and escalations can help.

Goblin Squad Member

As a general response:

The escalation system could be adapted to mix with the unrest, but I woudn't know about that. If it is able to then unrest can possibly be caused in part by culture differences.

Second thing is, assuming a tribe on the far frontier will not be able to trade effectively for new things is erroneous. As an Anth. major I can cite many examples, but I'll spare the majority of the details and just point out that tribes from the Dakotas had possession of obsidian garnered in the Puget Sound area. To assume Goblins are different would be silly, though of course WHAT they are willing to trade is always in question, and generally speaking tech levels are a generation behind per 100miles traveled. That is all rather heresay and based on devs though.

My final point is this. As the settlements expand in size and power, the tribal lands will diminish. This will force a consolidation of the tribes and while it made not lead to civilization, it will lead to an increase in power base (read escalation rates) in those areas where the bands are strengthened (hexes). The flip side is that the areas near these big settlements will experience lower rates, but then again... duh.

As an Anthropologist major, introducing a cross-culture interaction would be... well it would be freaking beautiful in polite terms.

Goblin Squad Member

I must admit, if I could use diplomacy and the other 'talking skills' with NPCs, even Orcs and Kobolds, I would s+%@ solid gold bricks in delight and build a shrine to Goblinworks out of them. Imagine the ability for merchants to literally barter their way into an alliance with a Hex controlled by NPC Orcs.

Suddenly, they don't have to deviate around the nominally-hostile Hex to reach the nearby Settlements, they lose some gold and goods for the bribes when they enter the Hex, but they also can get goods to market faster than their competitors, and if they get into trouble with bandits or the law, just pop back into the Orcs' Hex and watch Sir Doucheadin and Co get their asses thrashed by Grubyub's berserks.

And Kobolds. My god. Can you imagine hiring Kobolds to work your Mine PoI for your settlement? At the cost of food resources and making a law that 'protects' the Kobolds, they move into the PoI, becoming the NPC guards, and will trade you the Ore and Stone for Food and Luxury Goods (Booze, jewellery, etc), freeing up your players to either defend the PoI or expand into other Hexes.

Even more hilarious if you can gear them up. PoI guarded by Tucker's Kobolds would be hilarious, the gankers would never live it down, being ass-whupped by Kobolds.

There's also the non-evil sorts, like Half-Ogres, Faerie Dragons and NPC outposts of the PC races, NPC Bandits, Elf colonies, Dwarven mining crews, Halfling merchant caravans, that PCs could be able to trade, barter and create alliances with.

Admittedly, they won't be able to hold up to a sustained PC counter-attack or efforts, but they make a nice 'edge' for the Settlement who can boast a handful of 'Ambassador' focused players, vs the 'kick down the door and take the loot' Settlements that only focus on PvP and militant expansionism.

Goblin Squad Member

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-29616-Well-done-Sir-Reaction-GIF-Uop2.gif

my thoughts exactly. Though I admit I'm slightly nervous as to what that would do to the in-game economy/player-driven aspects


Warning: What follows is an idea well beyond the MVP. Also, it's kinda wordy.

A settlement or CC that owns a structure neighboring a Monster Hex can forge alliances with the Cycles through a system of tributes and quests. Alternatively, the only thing that is required is the quest completion, and neighboring the area is less important--thus letting adventuring parties get in on the proceedings. It might be more expensive that way, though.

To clarify this idea, here's how I think it would work:

1. Doomville, a Neutral Evil settlement, has been founded right next door to a Hex currently housing a growing Escalation Cycle of goblins.

2. Goblins, being Neutral Evil, are available for alliance with Doomville. The leader of Doomville, Doomdude, decides to take advantage.

3. Goblin Cycles demand horse heads (or human heads, whatever) and shiny magic items to form alliances with. Doomville provides these things and the Escalation Cycle will now ignore Doomville's people and structures during its march to glory!

4. The Goblin Cycle serves as a useful ally for some time, helpfully hampering invaders, but Goblin Cycles are unsustainable due to their rabid expansion (thus limiting where Doomville can easily expand, and making Doomville many enemies) and the fast-increasing nature of their required tributes. As such, Doomville allies with neighbors and eventually puts the Cycle down--or is it too late?

I envision Cycle Alliances being temporary things that inevitably become too costly and too volatile to maintain, but that in the short term can be very handy.

Certain Cycle Alliances might be more desirable than others--goblins might make terrible allies, while a hex full of duergar might expand slowly, contributing valuable ore in exchange for the food it demands.

Tributes might also be more expensive if you give the Cycle too many limitations. And those tributes might make the Cycle all the more powerful later on.

Doomville: Hey! Nicetown, our loyal ally! Remember that goblin tribe we allied with a while back? The one neighboring you guys?
Nicetown: Yeah.
Doomville: Well, they're kinda attacking you guys now.
Nicetown: WHAT?
Doomville: And, uh, remember all those potions we gave them?
Nicetown: ...
Doomville: Funny story...

Goblin Squad Member

Alliances with NPC groups are actually already ingame so it shouldn't be too hard for this to happen


Actually, I'm really curious what types of Cycles GW is planning to eventually have. Goblins, Ogres, Bandits and Skeletons, yeah, but what else? Angry druids? Ghosts? Demons? Kobolds? I heard there might be non-evil ones, too--how would those Escalation Cycles work?

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Actually, I'm really curious what types of Cycles GW is planning to eventually have. Goblins, Ogres, Bandits and Skeletons, yeah, but what else? Angry druids? Ghosts? Demons? Kobolds? I heard there might be non-evil ones, too--how would those Escalation Cycles work?

I'm sure they are still working on fine tuning it, and I would recommend the blogs for any actual info. But essentially it is the same for both evil and good. Obviously "good" won't be as aggresive (to other goods that is) but who knows for sure.

We shall see, eh?

Goblin Squad Member

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Wouldn't that be hilarious.

Group of Elves start an escalation, local PCs go "Oh, okay, we'll ally with these NPCs."

Then Elves turn around and slaughter other PCs who are building a settlement in a Hex containing an Elven ruin, and start to build their own Settlement, populated solely by Elves.

Cue "Did that just f+*!ing happen?" from the allies of this nominally 'good' Escalation of Elf 'nationalists'. Congratulations, you've made an alliance with the Elves ... who will kill anyone from the other Races who sets foot on the sovereign ground of their former holdings ... because you're their ally, you'll just get a Trespasser Flag.

Whoops ....

Now what the above scenario begs to ask ... what penalties are there for breaking an Alliance with NPCs?

Goblin Squad Member

Actually it is described in some depth in the dev blogs. depends on the relations when you leave.

for PCs and alliances, from "Live through this":

"Alliances in Pathfinder Online

Alliances are going to be a major system. Players will be able to join them, access special items, add special buildings to their settlements, etc., but these alliances are not going to be the core of the story. While they will be involved in some escalation cycles (i.e., monster spawn and quest sets that tell a story over time in a specific hex, such as a hex that has been infiltrated by a goblin tribe), they will not be the primary drivers of the story in Pathfinder Online; we want that to be the players. Alliances will provide resources and goals for players to pursue, but they will not be shaping the overall environment outside of the NPC settlements they control. Alliances are for color and story, not to take the limelight away from the players.

Alliance Mechanics

Each alliance could be a major alliance, a minor alliance, or a local group.

Major alliances are international groups with vast resources that have a vested interest in the River Kingdoms, such as Hellknights. Major alliances will have significant gameplay elements like distinctive armor and special settlement upgrades.
Minor alliances are primarily nation-specific groups that have little interest in the River Kingdoms, such as the Gray Gardeners or the Technic League (both of which border the River Kingdoms but have limited interest in it). Minor alliances will have moderate gameplay elements such as signature clothes and armor or weapons.
Local groups call some portion of the River Kingdoms their home, such as the Denizens of the Echo Wood, The Black Eagles of Lambreth, or the Daggermark Assassins Guild. Local groups will have limited gameplay elements: usually a single weapon or piece of clothing or armor.
All PCs have both a rank and a rating with each alliance. The PC's rank is their status with the alliance, while the rating is a more fluid pool of points that must be raised to increase in rank, similar to the relationship between level and experience points in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. As players assist an alliance by completing quests for it or killing its enemies, they gain rating with that alliance and, when their rating has reached certain thresholds, they advance in rank. New ranks allow the character to use special alliance items, train in special alliance abilities, etc. If a player works against an alliance or aids its enemies, their rating with that alliance decreases, decreasing rank when certain thresholds are met. Each alliance has one or more enemy alliance, and if you help one alliance, you lose points with its enemies. You cannot be friends with everyone (and if you're friends with the Cult of Lamashtu, no one else will like you).

Players begin with Rank 1 (neutral) and 0 rating with all alliances, meaning the player will not be killed on sight but will not be welcomed by any given alliance unless another force is involved, such as poor reputation. If a player helps a given alliance, in time they will increase to rank 1, at which point the alliance is friendly to them. On the other hand, if the player works against the alliance, they will become rank 0 and will be attacked on sight by NPCs of that alliance, and may appear as an enemy to other PCs of that alliance.

Players can choose to join a single alliance that they have gained rank 2 with. The player gains access to a title for that alliance and can continue to earn rating and more ranks with the alliance. If you do not actively join an alliance, you cannot advance beyond rank 2, and you can only join one alliance. Advancing your alliance beyond rank 2 is how you access that alliance's special equipment, skills, etc.

You may choose to leave an alliance at any time, or you may be automatically forced out if your alignment is more than one step from the alliance's alignment.

If you choose to leave an alliance on good terms, or are forced out, your rank is reduced to 2 and your rating is reduced to be in the middle of the range for rank 2.
If you choose to betray your alliance, you immediately go to rank 0 and a negative rating with the alliance you are leaving, but gain half your old rating with a new alliance (that must be selected from your old alliance's enemies and with whom you must be within one alignment step of). You gain a trait, Betrayer, which means you can be killed by members of your old alliance without repercussion in terms of reputation or alignment for a period of time.
Any special gear or skills you learn from an alliance cannot be used if you no longer meet the requirements for getting that item or skill in the first place. This is to stop people from joining every alliance, getting the gear they want, and then moving on. That's not behavior we want to encourage."

Goblin Squad Member

Those NPC factions would likely have different bonuses and penalties for allying with them and leaving an alliance compared to escalations.


How about if you're friends with the local orcs AND the local hobgoblins, there is a chance they will ally and backstab you because you've introduced them to eachother

Goblin Squad Member

It sounds like you only get to have one "alliance" per person/group/settlement.

Goblin Squad Member

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BrotherZael wrote:

Actually it is described in some depth in the dev blogs. depends on the relations when you leave.

for PCs and alliances, from "Live through this":

"Alliances in Pathfinder Online

Alliances are going to be a major system. ...

I'm not sure, but didn't the information on factions (Sep 25, 2013) supersede that old post (Nov 21, 2012) that discussed alliances? Things like: Any player who meets the requirements may join a faction such as the Eagle Knights, the Pathfinders, or the Church of Iomedae. Each faction has a number of allies and enemies. You may be a member of multiple factions if you wish, but you must meet the requirements for each, including not already being a member of an opposing faction.

Goblin Squad Member

Could be. I haven't gotten to that one yet, I just remembered reading the old one so I went in and found it.

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