What aspect of the Pathfinder universe do you dislike?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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I'd have argued that Half-Orcs only exist because of the chaos of the first meeting between Orcs and Men, the lingering radiant energies of the Underdark on the Orcs and the natural calamity occurring on the surface at the time allowed it to happen.

In the centuries that followed, the various Gods of the surface-world realized the danger the fecund and intensely fertile Orcs posed to their own species and made a concerted effort to divinely protect their favoured races from the curse of Orcish blood, but couldn't do anything to or for the already-existing Half-Orcs, who could breed true amongst themselves and could interbreed with both Orcs and Humans.

Hence, the Orc-held lands have small numbers of Half-Orcs who have interbred back with their Orc kin to the point they are barely distinguishable from their pure-blood kin to most outsiders, and in predominantly Human-populated territories, Half-Orcs exist either as unusually-coloured Humans or small villages and towns of predominantly Half-Orc populations in regions or nations where the 'diluting' of Human blood or having 'lesser' races around is looked down on by the majority of the population.

Bang. Half-Orcs exist without the R word being thrown around, having happened centuries (or longer) ago rather than yesterday and there's a reason why the entire planet isn't populated by Mongrelfolk, because the Gods saw what was going to happen and went "OH DEAR SWEET US, NO!" and slapped a divine curse on most playable races to prevent interbreeding, but some Gods and several Demon Princes and Devil Lords exploit loopholes in that 'curse' to create Cambions, Tieflings, Asimar and other, more exotic hybrids of mortals, outsiders and stranger combinations still.

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Set wrote:
And yeah, the humans being the only race to have multiple cultures and languages and nationalities and pantheons of gods, is kinda boring. A setting where two different elves or dwarves could follow radically different national or cultural standards, but not be mechanically different 'sub-races,' would be interesting.

Very, I try to avoid monoculture in my setting.

Though different languages would most likely be a logistics nightmare and fall under minutia that not a lot I suspect would appreciate and would hamper gameplay more than illustrate.


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Rysky wrote:
Set wrote:
And yeah, the humans being the only race to have multiple cultures and languages and nationalities and pantheons of gods, is kinda boring. A setting where two different elves or dwarves could follow radically different national or cultural standards, but not be mechanically different 'sub-races,' would be interesting.

Very, I try to avoid monoculture in my setting.

Though different languages would most likely be a logistics nightmare and fall under minutia that not a lot I suspect would appreciate and would hamper gameplay more than illustrate.

Eh, if you run with the Theory that Common is basically a polished pigeon language that everybody uses for trade and basic diplomacy, and national or racial languages are used for more complicated conversations, or just to stop random bystanders from other countries listening in, it makes sense.

I mean, the standard Golarion campaign has different racial languages for nearly every 'race' of Human, but everybody still speaks Common for simplicity's sake so that players and GMs don't have to spend all their class skill points in Linguistics just to be able to buy a loaf of bread from a merchant.

That said you raise a bloody valid point of over-complication, and that's something I am guilty of given less than half a chance. I think if Paizo actually did use a 'different nationalities' rather than 'different races', having Dwarven from one country and Dwarven from another be mostly identical, but the 'dialect' between the two could easily pin one Dwarf coming from an area that could raise eyebrows or cause swords to be drawn, which could be an interesting wrinkle for players trying to infiltrate a rival nation or get away from a homeland they don't believe in, or give a GM heart-failure when the PCs pick up on their Linguistic or Sense Motive checks and start to use in-universe reasons to start to dog-pile verbally on the Dwarf to figure out why he or she is in a region her 'people' normally shun or might be hostile towards.


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HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise wrote:
I'd have preferred to see some historically traditional-enemies-of-the-players races having their own kingdoms and being world powers in their own right. A Hobgoblin empire that's remarkably forward-thinking and quite civilized ... but accepts slavery and expansionism and bigotry towards unregistered arcanists quite openly too. A nation-wide network of Kobolds who compete with the Dwarves for economic dominance of the metal and stone-based industries. Ogre Mages who run authoritarian but still honorable empires alongside Kitsune, Tengu and Humans, stuff that makes the players question who is really the monster here.

These places exist in Golarion. Except maybe the kobold thing; they're kind of locked into a pattern of 'hiding on the outskirts' and 'serving bigger creatures' due to their status as one of the weakest intelligent races.

Kaoling is a hobgoblin empire. To the east is Chu Ye, an oni kingdom (though there are more powerful forms of oni there than just the ogre mage variety). Not far south from there lies the Tengu nation of Kwanlai, but you'd have to pass across the kraken-ruled swampland of Wanshou to get there.

The problem isn't that these non-human-dominated places don't exist, it's that people don't write adventures set in them.


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And they generally aren't part of the 'Core' of the game, but rather from fluff and 'expansion' material.

I can understand James and the rest of Paizo wanted to keep Golarion and Pathfinder a more 'pure' fantasy, but I do feel having Golarion be divided between two larger continents, one side very Eberron in that the playable characters there are divided by national and religious lines rather than racial ones, while the other side could have been very much the opposite, divided more along racial and political lines rather than religion or nationality, and the conflict between these two macro-societies along with their internal disputes with their member-nations, outside forces, the fall of Aroden and the like could have been used to prevent a WoW-like situation where the two big superpowers just bash away at each other and plunder everything smaller than them for resources and allies.

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Matthew Downie wrote:

These places exist in Golarion. Except maybe the kobold thing; they're kind of locked into a pattern of 'hiding on the outskirts' and 'serving bigger creatures' due to their status as one of the weakest intelligent races.

Kaoling is a hobgoblin empire. To the east is Chu Ye, an oni kingdom (though there are more powerful forms of oni there than just the ogre mage variety). Not far south from there lies the Tengu nation of Kwanlai, but you'd have to pass across the kraken-ruled swampland of Wanshou to get there.

The problem isn't that these non-human-dominated places don't exist, it's that people don't write adventures set in them.

And they are set in a far off land of which there has been all of one book written, and, at most, a page or two, on any one of these nations...

I mean, sure, they exist, but not meaningfully, to play in. At the moment, they kind of whet the appetite, like pictures of food in a menu. You can't actually *eat* them.

(Well, you could, but they'd taste kind of paper-and-plastic-y, and you might get thrown out of the restaurant...) :)

Shadow Lodge

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Set wrote:
Yeah, hobgoblins in particular make sense to have a kingdom / nation of their own.

Azaersi did nothing wrong. My schadenfreude will be great if Engels's and Kautsky's dicta on the subject of Switzerland ended up applying equally well to Nirmathas:

"The struggle of the early Swiss against Austria, the famous oath at Rytli, the heroic shot of Tell, the immortal victory at Morgarten – all this represented the struggle of restless shepherds against the thrust of historical development, a struggle of hidebound, conservative, local interests against the interests of the entire nation, a struggle of primitivism against enlightenment, barbarism against civilization. They won their victory over the civilization of that period, but as punishment they were cut off from the whole later progress of civilization."

"A question mark could be added to the above concerning the civilizing mission which the Hapsburgs were carrying out in Switzerland in the fourteenth century. On the other hand it is correct that the preservation of the independence of the cantons was an event which was conservative to the nth degree, and in no way revolutionary, and that thenceforth the freedom of those cantons served as a means of preserving an element of blackest reaction in the center of Europe. It was those forest cantons which defeated Zwingli and his army in 1531 at the battle of Kappel, and thereby put a stop to the spread of Protestantism in Switzerland. They provided armies to all the despots of Europe, and it was the Swiss of the forest cantons who were the staunchest supporters of Louis XVl against the revolution. For this the republic raised a magnificent monument to them in Lucerne."


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Aroden's death should have been more apocalyptic than it was. Also, I don't like that it happened so long ago compared to the present-day adventures.


Sense the hobgoblins remind me a lot of the Spartans, I think they should have a giant city state instead of a country, presumably with regular goblins as slaves and bugbears living there as well (the hobgoblins would still be the ones in charge as they would vastly outnumber the bugbears).


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There are a few points of Golarion that I don't like :
- the overabundance of deities/demigods/empyreal lords etc that bloated the universe after all these years. We ended up with the same thing that I hated on the FR : each race or region has its own pantheon, making it hard to believe that major gods are universal faiths. I would have greatly prefered to have universal gods with local cults who adapt to their region (just like christian churches have depictions of a brown Jesus or a black virgin Mary in South America or Africa)

- the Pathfinder Society ! Reading the different articles about it, it's hard to decide if it's an analogy of the National Geographic Society or the Justice League and then I find it hard to do anything with it in games.

Liberty's Edge

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The fact that Summoners exist.

Too much emphasis on Human Kingdoms and Nations.

Lore that sets the precedent that the Gods literally intervene in the affairs of the Material Plane themselves PERSONALLY from time to time.

Almost everyone has bad breath, no Toothpaste in CRB or Ult Equipment.


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Noir le Lotus wrote:

There are a few points of Golarion that I don't like :

- the overabundance of deities/demigods/empyreal lords etc that bloated the universe after all these years. We ended up with the same thing that I hated on the FR : each race or region has its own pantheon, making it hard to believe that major gods are universal faiths. I would have greatly prefered to have universal gods with local cults who adapt to their region

I definitely feel this. I don't understand the undisputed attraction amongst the fanbase for more and more deities. I would have been happier with just the core deities being explored in more and more depth over the years.


I personally like that the gods aren't universal. It reflects our own world that we have countless pantheons for real life. It also fits the Germanic model for gods, where they are powerful beings are than personifications of concepts.


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Regarding the Afterlife and Loss of Memory:

I have read both the Mummy's Mask Article and the Planar Adventures and I understood the situation as, that while memories fade the core personality and morality of the once mortal now petitioner remains the same. So, while specifics of a life are mostly gone the core of the person is still there.

Maybe I read it wrong and it doesn't say this, but maybe then it doesn't say enough so that this interpretation can work?


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Also, the memories are not *gone* they are just no longer associated with the soul that once had them. Everything you once remembered is still in the Akashic record and likely other places as well. Sufficiently powerful outsiders could certainly figure out who they were, they just don't necessarily have a reason to want to.


I find the non-universal gods a bit confusing. Like, Shizuru is the Tian-Min goddess of the sun. Sarenrae is also a sun goddess, created by Ihys, one of the two primordial deities in the time before time.

Is Sarenrae a universal goddess who just subcontracts some responsibilities to local minor goddesses?

Is Sarenrae a goddess for all Golarion? Do other worlds have their own equivalent to Pharasma, Asmodeus, etc?

Is Shizuru responsible for the sun in Minkai and Sarenrae in the Inner Sea Region?


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My preference is that "god" status simply requires access to a divine source plus a sufficient number of worshipers. How big and important a deity you are is contingent on that number of worshipers, so if Sarenrae is worshiped on thousands of planets she's a pretty important Sun deity, but there's no reason there can't be others.

Frankly my preference is for millions or billions of gods, depending on how far afield we want to get in the universe. I tend to create a handful of new ones every time I run a campaign.


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I'm quite partial to the theory of multiple Gods having access to the same portfolio, but because of that, they are ALL responsible for it.

If two or more Sun Gods start to go to war over total dominion of their Portfolio, you could end up with sweltering heatwaves, world-wide drought or even two suns, smaller and weaker, in the sky. And that's where the other Sun Gods, and the other Gods whose domains are now at risk or under dire threat move, potentially creating an all-in divine scrum to stop the conflict and causing all manner of divine and mortal chaos as the world reels under all this Godly power being thrown around and warping the world and it's denizens in the process.

Divine shenanigans and petty godling tantrums over having to share their 'toys' can be so much fun for a DM to use to really put the screws to a campaign, not just the PCs.


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Or it could be, that a god is just known under different names for different cultures. Because who knows how many names Pharasma had for example.

That idea was one of my favourites in the RPG I started with^^


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While most of the Gods do not bother me in of themselves, I wish the Gods were actually organized into a Pantheon. Instead each of the Gods just kind of exists.

Summoners, why do they exist? A class should NOT just be a set of mechanics, they should make sense into the lore of the world and allow for role play. Wizards are smart and go to school, Sorcerers are born special, Clerics serve the divine, Psychics wield the power of their own mind, Oracles get blessed/cursed by a God/Gods, etc etc, there is always some kind of lore reason about WHAT they are. But WHAT is a Summoner? Do they study like a wizard, if so why don't they use Int, are their summoner schools? Does it just come naturally to them like a Sorcerer, if so how and most importantly WHY? There is not (as far as I know) any real explanation of how one becomes a summoner.

While 2e seems to be fixing this in regards to Goblins, I dislike pure evil races. So ALL Orcs and Hobgoblins are pure evil irredeemable savage warmongers? I prefer the Eberron approach to Orcs and Hobgoblins personally.


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Edward the Necromancer wrote:
But WHAT is a Summoner?

A miserable little pile of secrets!

Dark Archive

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Edward the Necromancer wrote:
Summoners, why do they exist? A class should NOT just be a set of mechanics, they should make sense into the lore of the world and allow for role play. Wizards are smart and go to school, Sorcerers are born special, Clerics serve the divine, Psychics wield the power of their own mind, Oracles get blessed/cursed by a God/Gods, etc etc, there is always some kind of lore reason about WHAT they are. But WHAT is a Summoner? Do they study like a wizard, if so why don't they use Int, are their summoner schools? Does it just come naturally to them like a Sorcerer, if so how and most importantly WHY? There is not (as far as I know) any real explanation of how one becomes a summoner.

There's not an in-setting explanation for them yet, but there really isn't an in-setting reason for why oracles exist, either. They just kind of do, despite there already being clerics, druids, adepts, paladins and rangers to handle divine spellcasting needs.

I liked the notion that summoners reached into the Maelstrom, where exist creatures who have substance, but not shape, and impose a shape upon those creatures (a shape that can be modified over time...), for a time, allowing them to 'unravel' back into formlessness in between summonings.

But now they bond to various outsiders it seems. That's intriguing in it's own way, since many of those same outsiders are made from mortal souls on this mortal plane, and here they are, coming back magically bound by various class features to a mortal soul on the mortal plane. Is this part of an outsider growth-cycle, the outsider gaining markedly from it's time as an 'eidolon' and advancing more quickly through the ranks of it's outsider type? (The way a shair in AD&D's Al-Qadim setting was theorized to be somehow hastening the normally aeons-long process of 'growing' his gen familiar into a full-fledged genie?)

It's certainly more interesting from a philosophical sense than bards, who have music that can do magic, and can cast like sorcerers, despite having no 'bloodline' because... reasons? :)


Set wrote:
Edward the Necromancer wrote:
Summoners, why do they exist? A class should NOT just be a set of mechanics, they should make sense into the lore of the world and allow for role play. Wizards are smart and go to school, Sorcerers are born special, Clerics serve the divine, Psychics wield the power of their own mind, Oracles get blessed/cursed by a God/Gods, etc etc, there is always some kind of lore reason about WHAT they are. But WHAT is a Summoner? Do they study like a wizard, if so why don't they use Int, are their summoner schools? Does it just come naturally to them like a Sorcerer, if so how and most importantly WHY? There is not (as far as I know) any real explanation of how one becomes a summoner.
Set wrote:
There's not an in-setting explanation for them yet, but there really isn't an in-setting reason for why oracles exist, either. They just kind of do, despite there already being clerics, druids, adepts, paladins and rangers to handle divine spellcasting needs.

I imagine the Oracles being like the ancient Greek Oracles. Crazy people who can hear the voices of the gods. There is also the fact that you do not choose to be an Oracle but rather you are singled out to be an Oracle by a God. So Oracles at least have SOME kind of explanation. Even if it is an odd one.

Set wrote:
It's certainly more interesting from a philosophical sense than bards, who have music that can do magic, and can cast like sorcerers,...

Well Bards are story tellers, and for many cultures bards were the ones who remembered the histories. Combine that with ideas of Music of creation, the Magic of Music, Bardic Colleges, etc, and there is at least an explanation of why Bards exist and where they come from and how they can fit into the grand picture from a cultural and story perspective.

But Bards are also a hold over from earlier editions of DnD so we are stuck with them.

Are there Summoner Colleges though, do little kids with imaginary friends make their friends real? WHAT are they?!

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Edward the Necromancer wrote:


Summoners, why do they exist? A class should NOT just be a set of mechanics, they should make sense into the lore of the world and allow for role play. Wizards are smart and go to school, Sorcerers are born special, Clerics serve the divine, Psychics wield the power of their own mind, Oracles get blessed/cursed by a God/Gods, etc etc, there is always some kind of lore reason about WHAT they are. But WHAT is a Summoner? Do they study like a wizard, if so why don't they use Int, are their summoner schools? Does it just come naturally to them like a Sorcerer, if so how and most importantly WHY? There is not (as far as I know) any real explanation of how one becomes a summoner.

The primary example of summoners in Golarion are the god callers of Old Sarkoris. The eidolons they summon(ed) act as the living gods of a given tribe, forming bonds that can be passed from generation to generation. God callers train their proteges in much the same way that a remote village priest might train a small handful of acolytes (and for those old Sarkorian villages, there really wasn't a difference between a cleric and a god caller (summoner) beyond the fact that the cleric's god made them do more work because they couldn't be bothered to come help out themselves).

The advent of the Worldwound shattered Sarkoris and left many eidolons without a clan to bind them to the Material Plane anymore. Those god callers who survived spread across the Inner Sea region and beyond, many of them keeping their traditions and lore alive in small shrines or villages where they occasionally find and train a new god caller.

So in Golarion lore, becoming a summoner is one part aptitude and two parts training, as a prospective god caller needed to have an affinity for the practice but also needed to be able to establish a bond with the clan's guardian deity.

God Callers and the lore behind them are discussed in Pathfinder Society Scenarios # 9–18 and 10–12, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Worldwound, and briefly in the Kellids section of Inner Sea Races. There's also a god caller in Dave Gross's novel King of Chaos.


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Only aspect I dislike is humans are, more or less, the only species that matters. Sure, others have their own rinky dink little countries, but they're tiny, weak, and irrelevant compared to humans. It feels like nonhumans are often either villains to slaughter or token NPCs to spice things up.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing (tropes are tools and all that), just not something I'm a fan of. I have a feeling there are more people who prefer human dominance in fantasy anyway.


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HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise wrote:

I'm quite partial to the theory of multiple Gods having access to the same portfolio, but because of that, they are ALL responsible for it.

If two or more Sun Gods start to go to war over total dominion of their Portfolio, you could end up with sweltering heatwaves, world-wide drought or even two suns, smaller and weaker, in the sky. And that's where the other Sun Gods, and the other Gods whose domains are now at risk or under dire threat move, potentially creating an all-in divine scrum to stop the conflict and causing all manner of divine and mortal chaos as the world reels under all this Godly power being thrown around and warping the world and it's denizens in the process.

Divine shenanigans and petty godling tantrums over having to share their 'toys' can be so much fun for a DM to use to really put the screws to a campaign, not just the PCs.

Gods are not responsible for things like that. Golarion's star doesn't give two s%*#s about Sarenrae, Nergal or anyone else. It's a star and it'll be there for another ~4.5 billion years until it grows giant and red and eventually shrinks into a white dwarf as it's a G-type main sequence star, just like Earth's.

A god's portfolio is more or less just a very powerful being's particular interests. And very very few gods are actually powerful enough to affect celestial bodies (two have died just trying to stop a meteor and to move a moon, let alone affecting a star).

On top of that, most gods are generally planetary in scope. Many of Golarion's gods are only concerned with/worshipped by Golarionites. Nobody on Castrovel knows or cares about Aroden, Nalinivati, Irori, Nethys, Cayden Cailean or Iomedae. By contrast, there are demigods that are well known and worshipped throughout the entire material plane like the Four Horsemen or Archdevils because their scope is planar, not planetary, yet they are still 'merely' demigods compared to full divinities like Iomedae who's a tiny 900 years old.

Also, worship has absolutely zero effect on a god's personal power, it only affects their political/military power (more worshippers is more soldiers, but the god's direct magic is unaffected). James clarified that in multiple posts. Pharasma is the strongest deity.


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^ Re_Pharasma as the strongest deity:

Well... Rovagug may be stronger, considering it took a coalition of deities (which included Pharasma) to imprison him (not defeat, exactly...).

Then again, Pharasma may not have wanted to use more of her personal power than necessary (souls to judge - most likely including a few deities slain by Rovagug; maintaining the River of Souls; working within the limits placed by prophecies she may have been aware of; not wanting to diminish the relevance of other gods; etc.).

So, you're not necessarily wrong (& James did hedge on whether or not Pharasma was the most powerful, which is not a denial admittedly, so...)

(Of course, if you're referring to a more recent post than the one I saw, well... Never said you were wrong... <shrug>)

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To my knowledge Pharasma did not participate in the sealing of Rovagug.


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^ Hmm... Pharasma is explicitly mentioned as taking part in the alliance of deities who opposed * Rovagug in Inner Sea Gods p.125 (Rovagug's entry).

Of course, canon may have been retconned since then... (I do not have Concordance of Rivals yet, if it does mention anything about it?)

<edit> * & imprisoned

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Hmm I dunno, will check later.

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Nope, doesn’t say anything in there.


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^ Thanks for checking! I was not too sure...

I certainly intend to get it by the end of the month - I have heard great things about it!

:D

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Np ^w^

And it's an awesome book :3

Liberty's Edge

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Mostly, the eurocentrism. Sure, there's Serpent's Skull and half of Jade Regent and Mummy's Mask, and those are some of my favorite APs, but by and large APs have been very safe in eurocentric areas. I can't believe we've never gotten a Vudra AP. Arcadia has to settle for table scraps. Tian Xia has basically been forgotten since Ruby Phoenix and Jade Regent. Instead, we're doing Giantslayer, and Ironfang Invasion, and Hell's X, and Strange Aeons, and Runelords once again, and Tyrant's Grasp visiting all the safe and boring and so very eurocentric regions over and over again.

Sure, maybe that's all that the market supports, but this thread did not ask me what the market supports, the thread asked what I dislike, and this is what I dislike.


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There does seem to be a regrettable “Jade Regent didn’t sell well so we’re never ever do another Tian Xia AP ever again” implicit mindset by the Paizo leadership.

Silver Crusade

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Jhaeman wrote:
There does seem to be a regrettable “Jade Regent didn’t sell well so we’re never ever do another Tian Xia AP ever again” implicit mindset by the Paizo leadership.

That's how you make decisions in business. If X doesn't sell, you don't push X or invest in X. Doubly so if it's not just the sales that tell you that X isn't popular, but so do retailers/distributors/customers. Remember, Paizo is a business that makes money, not a charity whose mission is to make every gamer happy.

Sure, Tian Xia and Other Exotic Places have a vocal following on the forum. But that doesn't translate to sales.


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Thanks for explaining business to me. I had no idea it involved making money. I am now educated.

Dark Archive

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I do think Eurocentrism is bit too wide term though to describe it accurately to other people though.

I mean, French, Spanish, Nordic, Slavic and German architecture, culture, terrain and weather are rather different from just English equivalents. So I'm bit confused by what people mean with eurocentrism. People seem to usually mean "Medieval England" with it, but Pathfinder doesn't really have many places that feel like Medieval England that has had APs set there.

Like, I guess Varisia is closer to Europe, but I don't really feel like it feels... European? Like, its mostly unsettled wilderness territory with arid lands at north, huge mountain ranges, rainy winters without snow at south and ruins of ancient country with weird mix of aztec and asian architecture. I can't really think of any European country that fits well with the wilderness frontier thing.


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Rysky wrote:

Np ^w^

And it's an awesome book :3

I'm not sure what book it's from (Planar Adventures, I think), but she cast wards on the Dead Vault to prevent his escape. From the wiki: "She magically imbued the Dead Vault with potent wards against escape, to serve as Rovagug's prison."

Dark Archive

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CorvusMask wrote:
I do think Eurocentrism is bit too wide term though to describe it accurately to other people though.

It is interesting how flexible the 'eurocentric' concept is, in that several game settings (not just Golarion) have fantasy equivalents to Egypt (Hamunaptra, Osirion, Mulhurand), Persia, Japan, China, even India, but while very few have a 'fantasy Ireland' or 'fantasy Spain' or 'fantasy Germany' they are still mostly considered 'eurocentric' because they use so many eurocentric tropes like heavily armored knight-cavalry, or big stone castles, or feudal kingdoms, titles and heirarchies (and, of course, white folk predominant in the 'central PC lands' while darker skinned folk are over in the 'exotic' lands on the edges (or beyond the edges) of the map).

Silver Crusade

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Jhaeman wrote:
Thanks for explaining business to me. I had no idea it involved making money. I am now educated.

No problem! I'm always happy to help. Lots of folks don't take the business side of the equation into consideration and think that Paizo is a limitless well of resources and money. They think that it's nuts that the 576pg Dance Halls of GOLARION hardcover hasn't been made yet, and the only reason for that is some shadowy clueless cabal of corporate leadership whichdoesn't understand that dance halls are close to heart of many true fans.

Oh, unless you were being sarcastic, in which case, well, tone is so hard to convey over the Internet.

Silver Crusade

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Gorbacz wrote:
They think that it's nuts that the 576pg Dance Halls of GOLARION hardcover hasn't been made yet,

Well it's true. The name was already a concession >_>

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I want that book so hard nuuuuuuuuuuu........ ;-)


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Gorbacz wrote:
Sure, Tian Xia and Other Exotic Places have a vocal following on the forum. But that doesn't translate to sales.

Haven't they been alternating "do something weird" and "do something pretty close to standard" for a while now? It's just that there are a lot of ways to be experimental that don't involve setting, and there are a lot of potentially "weird" settings that aren't "fantasy versions of real places", and you probably don't want to do all the experimental things at once- like an underwater intrigue survival horror AP set on another planet probably would not sell like hotcakes.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
[...]like an underwater intrigue survival horror AP set on another planet probably would not sell like hotcakes.

Though amusingly, Strange Aeons hits almost all of those elements except maybe underwater (which we hit two APs later in Ruins of Azlant).

I'd also note that there are literally dozens of Pathfinder Society scenarios set in Tian Xia and other locations that we might not necessarily have been able to set an AP in yet, for a variety of reasons. Even though we haven't done a "Tian Xia AP" other than Jade Regent, we have published numerous short adventures set in Tian Xia, and I suspect it will see support in more scenarios for the new edition before too long.


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Gorbacz wrote:
Jhaeman wrote:
There does seem to be a regrettable “Jade Regent didn’t sell well so we’re never ever do another Tian Xia AP ever again” implicit mindset by the Paizo leadership.
That's how you make decisions in business. If X doesn't sell, you don't push X or invest in X.

This is how it's done in business, but sometimes they get it wrong.

For example, "Supergirl didn't make money, therefore making a female-led superhero movie will not be profitable," seemed like good logic to Hollywood executives for decades. Then Wonder Woman came out and it turned out that a superheroine movie could make tons of money.


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I don't really like the way Golarion does gods. I feel like they're simultaneously too disconnected from the mundane world to really deal with but too close to it for them to really feel godlike either.

If there were fewer of them, they were more powerful and more concretely dominated their portfolios I think it could be interesting to explore how different cultures and societies interpret a deity and generally reframe them more as aspects and concepts.
If they were weaker and more numerous then you could have complex pantheons and more plot hooks surrounding them and they could much more effectively engage with the world without it feeling problematic.

As it is they're too strong to effectively set up scenarios in which they can be meaningfully interacted with, but not omnipresent or influential enough to really feel like they exist beyond mortal comprehension either.

On top of that they're all too, human might be the wrong word because a lot of them aren't human, but too approachable, I think. Too much like regular characters.

They end up coming across more as a bunch of really powerful people who could ruin your day and reshape societies if they want to but don't.

It kind of reminds me of my friend's GMPCs back when I was playing D&D in high school.

Rysky wrote:
Um, Aroden's death was the herald that prophecies don't work anymore on Golarion, so all prophecies are "affected" by his death.

While true in universe, from our perspective the 'broken' prophecies in Golarion aren't that different from regular prophecies in other fantasy fiction. For that matter, the broken human societies don't look all that different from other fantasy fiction either. So we're told this event has so many dire consequences but what we see is pretty much standard high fantasy and I think that makes it feel a little irrelevant or unimportant.

Cydeth wrote:
Not to say you can't rule it otherwise, that's why home games have GMs, after all! It's just not how it works in-setting.

That's a really important bit of information to bury inside a description block in an AP.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Squiggit wrote:
While true in universe, from our perspective the 'broken' prophecies in Golarion aren't that different from regular prophecies in other fantasy fiction.
I don't really see the relevance of this statement.
Quote:
For that matter, the broken human societies don't look all that different from other fantasy fiction either.
And?
Quote:
So we're told this event has so many dire consequences but what we see is pretty much standard high fantasy and I think that makes it feel a little irrelevant or unimportant.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here? Bad things happen in other settings so bad things happening here are irrelevant?

In-setting Aroden's death coincided with the Eye of Abendego and The Worldwound forming, those are both major calamities.

Shadow Lodge

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Rysky wrote:
In-setting Aroden's death coincided with the Eye of Abendego and The Worldwound forming, those are both major calamities.

We happen to know that the formation of the Worldwound was pure coincidence. Areelu Vorlesh was on her own timetable.

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