Gronk de'Morcaine's page

492 posts. Alias of Kydeem de'Morcaine.


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Is there a rules legal way for the Arcanist to get the Arcane Discovery of Staff-Like Wand?

1st druid level (level 2 PC) in the Giant Slayer AP.
GM says these are the animals readily available at this early stage of the campaign:

- Chalicotherium (looks like sloth) Str 12, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 3, NA +4, 2*d4 claws, scent, and low-light vision. At 7th level large and rend

- Deinotherium (looks like elephant) Str 14, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 3, NA +4, d6 slam & d8 gore, scent, and low-light vision. At 7th level large, sweep, and trample

- Embolotheriium (looks like rhino) Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 3, NA +6, d6 bite and low-light vision. At 7th level large and trample

Later on, I can look for more rare animals to tame/befriend into being my animal companion. But for now, of these 3, The Deinotherium appears to be the clear winner. Am I missing anything that would make one of the others seem better to you? Note: since trample only usually works on creatures smaller than the one making the attack, seems like it won't be very useful in this campaign.

The only thing I am wondering, is about the sweep and trample. The sweep doesn't have the same size limit. So is it saying since you knocked something down you get to trample it anyway, even if it is not smaller than the attacking creature?

My GM said he is ok with me changing out one of the cestus for a spiked gauntlet. He feels that will meet the qualifications. So I will just do that.

Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
Derklord wrote:
... Overall, most of the questions are asking about options to game the system. You better explicitly ask your GM about them, or you could find yourself on an express train to Rocks-Fall-You-Die Ville, population: your character....
Absolutely agree. I always go back to him to see if he will allow. These are things that came up in our group discussion or logical extensions of that discussion. So I'm checking the forums first then with the GM second. Overall, our GM is extremely permissive in rulings. However, he likes to know what (if anything) is the RAW interpretation before making a decision.

Just finished discussing with GM. He decided only one Training enchantment can be active at a time for his campaign. We can buy more than one if we won't to have them avail, but can only be making use of one of them.

I think that is perfectly reasonable. Otherwise things could just get silly.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
... /anyone who finds some way to have weapon training ...

Is there some way I don't know about for a non-fighter to get weapon training?

I didn't know it was banned in org play. It's good, but not that horrific. Getting a bunch from it is expensive. The only reason we can consider it is because we are suddenly flush with cash at a time when the group is realizing how powerful the teamwork feats can be.

Derklord wrote:
... Overall, most of the questions are asking about options to game the system. You better explicitly ask your GM about them, or you could find yourself on an express train to Rocks-Fall-You-Die Ville, population: your character....

Absolutely agree. I always go back to him to see if he will allow. These are things that came up in our group discussion or logical extensions of that discussion. So I'm checking the forums first then with the GM second. Overall, our GM is extremely permissive in rulings. However, he likes to know what (if anything) is the RAW interpretation before making a decision.

A few related questions here, that may or may not be coming up in our group. We have come into a sizable chunk of change and were talking about adding a bunch of teamwork feats to the group.

1) Can a single weapon have more than 1 training enhancement to effectively learn multiple combat feats?

2) You can bash with a shield. So can you put the training weapon enhancement on the shield?

3) Any reason you couldn't put it on armor or shield spikes, since they are very obviously a weapon? Dwarven boulder helm?

4) Can you make a spiked Klar and put it on both the slashing part of the Klar and the shield spikes?

5) Does wearing a spiked gauntlet, cestus, or hand wraps interfere with using a tower shield, large shield, small shield, or buckler?

You 3 just basically went through the discussion at our table. Our decision was to ask the forms. Nicely ironic that we got the same discussion.

Ok, so I have been doing something my PC's whole career that maybe I shouldn't have.
Magus with a mithral cestus on right hand and a cold iron cestus on left hand. Wield scimitar in left hand and have right hand free for casting.

However: it was pointed out to me, that it might not actually work.

Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Does a cestus count as having a hand free or not?

I can't remember a time when it would have actually made a difference, but it might in my weapon enchantment purchases for the future.

I am thinking of putting these both on my magus' scimitar.

Could I expend both the stored spell and the dispel magic at the same time with one hit? Hit it with a force punch stored, a dispel magic stored to take away some buff, and also lay in some other spell with spell strike/spell combat.

Awesome nova strike.

Even if not, I might still do it. Just wondering.

Ok, in the future, I will go with them becoming statues. Still seems wierd to me.

Azothath wrote:


Petrified, like Paralyzed is a condition and usually a "keyword" in the game, something with a defined meaning thus the two are not equivalent.

I agree they are not equivalent. However, your interpretation is essentially equivalent.

I have always treated this one way, but everyone in the group thought it was another way. I know, DM's call. We just like to know what the 'official' rules are and work from there.

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature f lying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot f lap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

I had always interpreted this as RL paralysis. Collapse to the ground and drop anything in hand. To me "frozen in place" meant cannot crawl from current square.

Everyone else has always treated this as 'frozen' like a statue. I suppose I would have called that 'petrified' or something like that.

What is the RAW interpretation of this?

For what is worth, I stopped trying the GM's that wanted payment. I tried quite a few and only 1 was decent.

What I have been doing is using the ones that have the option of giving a tip for a good experience. I've tried 4 of those and only 1 was a poor GM. I gave the other 3 a $5-$10 tip.

Not sure if that is an appropriate amount, but it seemed reasonable to me.

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I'm not seeing a specific prohibiting this since neither is an actual polymorph spell.

I told the player, I was OK with it unless I find a ruling against it. It doesn't seem that huge of an impact to me. Bloodragers get very few spells and he will have to use 2 of them at the same time to get a 15' reach.

Derklord wrote:


There are many special weapon properties that just make no sense with natural attacks, like Barbed Spear (do you have to break off body parts?) ...

Ha! Never thought about that. I'm tempted to try that one just to see the looks on the faces when I say "Ok, my claw breaks off in his foot and ..."

Diego Rossi wrote:
Reach is so-so. You get "all of the weapon’s properties", but that means that your natural attack works as that weapon with that ability. With Reach, it means that you can attack at reach, but can't attack in the adjacent squares. ...

On of the biggest reasons I'm considering the scorpion whip or kusarigama exotic weapon proficiency.


The Scorpion Whip in the Adventurer's Armory does list it as having disarm, reach, and trip.

I forgot about the line of whips provoking AoO. That could be rough to provoke with every single attack. Especially if you are in a form that has like 5 natural attacks. But still... I would be provoking from a long ways away. Hopefully the bad guys wouldn't be close enough to take advantage of those.

However, if we are going with the rule of only getting what is designated by the 'keywords' not what is in the description, then this wouldn't apply since it is just in the description.

I'm going to have a level of fighter or barbarian. So I will have all the martial weapon proficiencies. Trying to decide if I want to take exotic weapon proficiency as well. Decisions... Decisions...

As I read it, all of your natural attacks get the properties. It says pick one of the weapons you are wielding that meld into your new form. But then is says "... your natural attacks ..." It uses the plural each time. So I would be full attacking with claws and bite from 15' away behind our barbarian.

Forgot about the boulder helmet being metal. Maybe I will eventually get one made of ironwood.

I think it is pretty clear that you can use different weapons each time. But I think I would only get the one I started with each shift. So I was trying to get several useful properties at the same time. I have almost never used sunder. Bracing, blocking, and distracting don't seem as useful. So the scorpion whip seems to give the most that I would be likely to use.

One more question I thought of, can I stop and/or start using this feat without shifting back to my normal shape and then wildshaping again?

Weapon Shift:

Source Wilderness Origins pg. 9
Your melee weapons meld into your animal form.
Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature.

Benefit: When you use your wild shape ability, any melee weapons you are wielding and proficient with meld into your new form. Select one of these weapons; while in your new form, your natural attacks deal the same damage type as that weapon. Your natural attacks also gain all of the weapon’s properties (such as disarm), other than the double weapon property and the fragile weapon property; moreover, when using this feat to grant the trip property to your natural attacks, you gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to trip an enemy, but you cannot drop your weapon to avoid being tripped due to a failed trip attempt. Weapon Shift does not apply a magic weapon’s enhancement bonus to your natural attacks, nor does it grant your natural attacks any of a weapon’s magical special abilities.

Seriously considering this for my druid build. So been thinking about what weapons I would want to use it with.

Additional reach would always be nice.
Disarm is fun for opponents with weapon.
Trip is a blast for opponents with legs.
Brace is situationally useful, though not terribly common.

Manople has blocking and disarm.
Sarissa has extended reach of 15'
Boulder Helmet, +2 to bull rush attempts and +2 to AC vs crit confirm
Gnome Pincher to disarm or steal
Sibat to grapple if your form doesn't already have grab.
Boar Spear, +2 shield bonus to AC when braced against a charge.
Whip has 15' reach, trip, and disarm! (Would you also get the no damage vs opponents in armor? If so I guess you could use the scorpion whip.)
Sai gives +2 to sunder a weapon
Nine-section-whip has blocking, distracting, and trip
Kusarigama for reach, trip, and grapple

Will any of these not work the way I'm thinking?
What would you pick?
Guess I'm leaning toward an exotic weapon proficiency for the scorpion whip.

Ooh, that would be rough. Could probably get the saves pretty high though.

BTW, I'm thinking I might do this as a Core PC. Having all the wierd on a core PC would be even more ironic.

You can have any number of pets. However, you can only use 1 at a time. So at the start of the scenario, you can decide to use you animal companion mount, your sneaky familiar, or your melee eidolon. But not all 3 at once.

There is some ambiguity in the wording though. If say halfway through you eidolon gets its head removed and unsummons, can you then wake up the lizard familiar that was sleeping in your back to do a bit of scouting? Some say yes, some say no.

Similarly, you can purchase all the intelligent items you wish. However, it is difficult to make good use of them. They all have different alignments, so you either need a super high UMD to emulate the correct alignments or accept the negative level penalties.

Kelly Youngblood wrote:
... or worse, degenerate into a basically unplayable joke build.

Honestly, a 'joke build' doesn't bother me all that much. However, a primarily buff and/or healing caster is not all that build dependent. Spell DC becomes irrelevant. Not usually all that caster level dependent. Easy to find lots of stackable buffs on multiple lists.

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Since PFS1 is no longer in production, I'm going to bring up this topic.

I know a lot of people have a real problem with people 'ruining' the gaming for others in the party by going for particular rewards that they might not know about. Plus they absolutely abhor the the thought of going on particular adventures just for the rewards instead of the story lines and role play.

However, I no longer care. THHPPPBBBBTTTT..... ;)
I (like many people in my local) still prefer PF1 to PF2. But most of us have played, run, or heard about most every scenario and possible reward in them. So some of us have been looking at wierd things to do to help keep PFS1 interesting.
One of the fellows has a PC that takes only 1 level of each class. He's up to level 9 and I believe and still surprisingly viable.
Another is trying to play a melee martial character that dumped both dex and con.

I was thinking about some of the odd-ish rewards on some of the chronicles. A broken intelligent weapon. I think there at least 3 special familiars (pseudo dragon, floating mask, necro-puppet). A couple of special animal companions (owlbear, axebeak). Some technological items (energy whip, laser pistol). The ability to change your character's race to Oread. A few Mythic things from Destiny of the Sands. Some goblin traits. Some special Lissala curse/boons. Then there are some special event reward chronicle boons. Like playing a Dhampir PC. Etc...

I was thinking about trying to see how many of those I could plan out to get in use on 1 PC. Even if not terribly powerful, just still being able to use everything he gets. So if he has an energy whip on his chronicle, he would have to be proficient in whip and pay for the energy whip. If he can take a necro-puppet as an improved familiar, he would have to have enough equiv caster levels to qualify for it. Might have to take at least 1 level of druid to get the bugbear animal companion. Things like that.
Then I, as player, would have to schedule in all those scenarios in probably a fairly specific order.

What do you folks think? How many of these odd things could we plan out to get on a single PC by level 12? This is, by the way, probably the only case where I might consider slow tracking a PC throughout his career.

Does this actually work? I thought extracts could only affect the alchemist him(her)self.

What about if you have the infusion discovery?

Dwarftr wrote:

And goblins do have books!! There are goblin wizards, alchemists and such... Butt..... they have scratch and sniff books!! or paint splotches or something to that effect.

Its true!! look it up

*scratch scratch...... sssniiiiiffffff! ahhh, i love the smell of burning hands in the morning*

Ok, now I'm going to have to make a goblin alchemist with a scratch and sniff formula book.

I do like the idea of the flying goblin bomber. Alchemist does have some wierd things like extra hands or tentacles and tumor familiar. Not sure about a goblin and formula book though. They are afraid of writing. But I'm sure I could work something around that. I will give that some thought.

Ok, so I get what several of you are saying. I will try to sorta answer some of it.

First, I am going to make something like this because the GM specifically requested it. I don't think this is supposed to be a long term PC. I am 'taking over' the short/mid-term NPC for a specific mini-arc of the campaign. I think he really wants to use this as a demo of some of the wild stuff possible.

Second, after that I will make PC with some tricks built in to augment some odd (but not overpowered) abilities. I have some ideas for that. But I want to get a better feel for the group first.

Third, I may not have explained the 'issue' very well. I will detail a bit more of the one he really explained to me.
In previous campaign, a player had a tall, silent, brooding, mounted, generally athletic warrior of a primitive tribe. Didn't come out and say it, but I get the impression it was based on Native American from the old western movies. Didn't have anything to help protect his with only no armor or sometimes hide armor. Didn't have mounted combat even though he was constantly trying to fight from horse back. Horses kept dying under him since they weren't animal companions that advance.
In the current campaign, a different player is playing something kind of Hulk-ish. Constantly tries to bash in doors with his fists, hit people with tables, bull rush people off the balcony, etc... things like that. Doesn't have throw-anything, improvised weapon, or improved bullrush. Therefore he often fails at the things he wants to do. Plays as 'dumb' barbarian even though the PC has a 12 wis and 13 int. Definitely above human average.
Both barbarians are nearly identical builds even though they are played completely different and try to do different things. Both have a str of 14, which is an 18 when raging. Not shabby, but the Hulk PC could have dropped some int and wis to have his str up to 24+ when raging. Definitely more Hulkesque. There are several feats and/or rage powers specifically designed for the things he wants to do well. he has weapon focus greataxe even though he almost never uses it. He nearly always punches with his gauntlets.

It is not that the GM wants them to be more focused, optimized, or powerful. He just thinks they would enjoy their PC more if they were actually good at what they constantly try to do. He does let them succeed occasionally when it is 'cinematically' appropriate and they didn't fail by much. However, you have to be careful not to do that too much because then it is just 'he let you win' situation. No one likes that.

We both know there is a huge amount of PF stuff out there. Trying to wade through all of it is a big undertaking. But there are people who will help and there are these forums to give more ideas.

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So... I got invited to join a PF1 campaign. The players are fairly experienced, but not at all optimizers. In fact they tend to create fairly generic PC's. I know, nothing really wrong with that as long as they are having fun. However, I was talking with the GM and he thinks they never seem to really realize they could use build specifics to augment and match the personalities they have developed for their characters.
For example: The druid plays as really focused on plants, but hasn't taken any archetypes or feats that do with that. No archetype and staying with the pretty generic extend spell, improved initiative, and toughness feats. The barbarian kicks in doors, hits people with tables, throws crates at enemies, etc... But never even looked at the fact there are archetypes and feats to make those much more effective. Things like that.

The GM thinks they would enjoy their characters even more with a little bit of build to personality matching. Therefore, the GM wants me to make a PC that has a wierd collection of odd abilities and powers. This is to be a kind of demo of what's out there to maybe get them thinking. This PC will be taking the place of the 'wandering madman (possibly) prophet' they have recently picked up. So any and all oddness is perfectly applicable and in character. He knows I enjoy playing characters like that. That should also help me from becoming too powerful and overshadowing the current players and PC's.

I'm looking for the largest collection of strange and (at least potentially) useful abilities, archetypes, and spells. Maybe even a prestige class if it fits well and contributes to the concept. Not interested in abilities like +2 to an ability score, save, or skill. Unless I make a big deal out of mentioning it all the time, it will never be noticed. But if I'm suddenly enveloped in swirling shifting shadows that make it so people miss me, that is a noticeable effect.

My first thought is 1/2 Elf, razmiran priest, sorcerer, cross blooded, maybe wild blooded (he allows), VMC oracle, and the eldritch bloodline series of feats.
1/2 Elf gets a free spell focus which will help with the eldritch bloodline feat.
1/2 Elf can get more spells known as a favored class bonus.
Razmiran priest would match with the (maybe) prophet and let him use some divine items.
VMC oracle gets a curse and a revelation.
Some of the sorcerer bloodlines get some really interesting abilities like laughing touch, hands from the grave, blobs of ectoplasm, entering dreams, frightening visage, etc...
Still a full caster.
Then instead of the standard spells like shield, magic missile, and fireball (boring); I would take something like eruptive pustules, murderous command, and garden of peril. Odd but still useful.

I think they are using 20 point buy and will be about 7th level when I join them. I will throw together a quick prototype build this weekend. But I thought I'd see if you folks have any better/different/unique ideas.

Note: the build does not have to be a sorcerer or even a caster focus. That is just what came to me first. The wandering spirit shaman gives not only wierdness, but changing wierdness. Some of the rage powers are also pretty wild. Like the swirling spirits of the dead that attack nearby people. So whatever you can think of that has lots of oddness to it.

Yep, that was the one.

The GM hasn't been too restrictive on what we communicate in a round. However, if we are yelling to each other in combat, obviously the other side can also hear it. It has actually been most useful in non-combat meetings with NPC's so we can talk about things without them knowing.

Thanks folks I will pass along to all our casters.

MS I love the idea of Coven Hex. I would go for it, but most of the players in our group do not like to coordinate their builds like that. It took a lot of talking and cajoling just to get them to take a single teamwork feat that lets us talk to each other mentally within 30' and the healer do a better job of keeping us allive. I can't imagine them taking another group feat even if they were hex casters.

Our group decided to clear a target a little out of our paygrade.

Doing reasonably ok. The only real issue has been condition recovery afterward. Diseases, poisons, curses, petrification, etc… With fairly high caster level checks to eliminate.

We will be working with the GM to see about developing rituals or something to help. But before we start ‘house ruling’ things, we always want to see what RAW allows. So what feats, power components, materials, magic items, spells, or whatever can help with caster level checks for condition recovery?

It took me a while to get back to it, but I think this is approximately how it would be built at 15th level.

Not really sure of the spell selection. The are mostly the ones in the Bestiary for the bronze dragon. Plus a few others.

Spells Known are as a 14th level sorcerer, but he does cast them at 15th level.

I only put 2 magic items on him since I know I will want to get both of those just as absolutely soon as I can manage.

Drakav Cidim:

Male human (Vudrani) bloodrager 1/dragon disciple 10/sorcerer 4 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 15)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Hero Points 3
Init +6; Senses blindsense 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +20
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17 (+2 Dex, +7 natural)
hp 159 (15 HD; 4d6+1d10+10d12+63)
Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +10
Resist draconic resistance, electricity 10
Speed 40 ft.
Special Attacks bloodrage (13 rounds/day), breath weapon (11d6 electricity, 60 ft. line, DC 18, 2/day), breath weapon (18d6 electricity, 60 ft. line, DC 24, 3/day), claws, claws (2, 1d6 plus 1d6 electricity, treated as magic weapons, 8 rounds/day), dragon bite
Dragon Disciple Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +15)
. . 2/day—dragon form
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 15th; concentration +20)
. . 7th (3/day)—form of the dragon II, spell turning
. . 6th (5/day)—greater dispel magic, form of the dragon I, mislead (DC 21)
. . 5th (7/day)—dismissal (DC 20), interposing hand, lightning arc[UM] (DC 20), spell resistance
. . 4th (7/day)—ball lightning[APG] (DC 19), dimension door, fear (DC 19), ice storm, solid fog
. . 3rd (7/day)—dispel magic, fly, heroism, lightning bolt (DC 18), slow (DC 18)
. . 2nd (7/day)—blur, defensive shock[UM], gust of wind (DC 17), invisibility, resist energy, see invisibility
. . 1st (8/day)—alarm, liberating command[UC], mage armor, obscuring mist, shield, shock shield[UC], true strike
. . 0 (at will)—dancing lights, detect magic, drench[UM] (DC 15), mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic
. . Bloodline Draconic, Draconic
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 7, Cha 20
Base Atk +10; CMB +14; CMD 26
Feats - Custom Feat -, - Custom Feat -, - Custom Feat -, - Custom Feat -, Blind-fight, Eschew Materials, Extra Rage, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness
Traits blood of dragons, indomitable faith, magical knack
Skills Acrobatics +6 (+10 to jump), Appraise +6, Bluff +9, Climb +8, Diplomacy +9, Escape Artist +6, Fly +20, Handle Animal +9, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (arcana) +20, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Knowledge (religion) +20, Linguistics +14, Lore (Dragons) +19, Perception +20, Ride +6, Spellcraft +6, Survival +2, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +19
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Hallit, Kelish, Osiriani, Polyglot, Shoanti, Skald, Tien, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ bloodline arcana (energy spells that match bloodline energy deal +1 damage per die), fast movement, hero points, wings, zealous
Other Gear furious amulet of mighty fists, robe of arcane heritage[APG], 15 pp
Special Abilities
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Blindsense (60 feet) (Ex) Sense things and creatures without seeing them.
Bloodline Arcana: Draconic (Ex) +1 damage per die for [Electricity] spells.
Bloodrage (13 rounds/day) (Su) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Breath Weapon (11d6 electricity, 60 ft. line, 2/day, DC 18) (Su) As a standard action, deal energy damage in area (Ref half).
Breath Weapon (18d6 electricity, 60 ft. line, 3/day, DC 24) (Su) As a standard action, deal energy damage in area (Ref half).
Draconic Resistance (Ex) Gain Electricity resistance 2 and +10 natural armor.
Dragon Bite (Ex) Bite atacks deal 1d6 damage
Dragon Form (II, 2/day) (Sp) Use Form of the Dragon II as a spell-like ability 2/day
Electricity Claws & Electricity Bite (8 rounds/day) (Su) As a free action, gain 2 claw attacks (+1d6 Electricity) that bypass DR as magic weapons. Bite attack deals 1d6 damage.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Flyby Attack You can take a standard action during your move action while flying.
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magic Claws (Ex) 2 Magic Claw attacks deal 1d8 damage.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Wings (Su) Can sprout wings and gain a 60' Fly speed with average maneuverability.
Zealous -5 to hit and +2 to damage on your first attack against a target of a different religion than you
level feats
1 iron will & improved iron will
3 improved initiative
5 favored prestige class
7 prestigious spell caster
9 extra rage
11 prestigious spell caster
13 flyby attack
15 prestigious spell caster

I did consider VMC cleric with the Dragon domain just to fit with the theme, but it really doesn't gain much of anything and loses half his level feats.

DeathlessOne wrote:


I can understand that. Its just with your listed approach, you are going to need to specialize in certain types of spells because your known spells will be limited. Having to pick between a new buff spells, attack spell, control spell, etc at each level up is going to pull you in several different directions.

You are going to need to make use of the human favored class option to learn new spells, if you want to be able to do that well. I mentioned the Arcanist previously because you would get the spontaneous casting of the sorcerer and the ability to swap out your known spells as needed. And the Arcanist has an archetype to get a full strength bloodline that will stack the same with Dragon Disciple. It will also help limit that urge to double dip into more bloodline so you don't make yourself too powerful compared to everyone else.

Arcanist counts as a prepared caster. I think there is one archetype that gives spontaneous casting, but I didn't think it stacks with the one that gives you a full bloodline. I could be wrong on that though. I will check it later.

DeathlessOne wrote:

Well, my first thought is that you should pick a spellcasting focus. Do you want to be a blaster, controller, summoner, buffer, etc? How that comes out will shape the kind of sorcerer (or even possibly ARCANIST) that you will want to build.

Also, there are quite a few ways to get spontaneous arcane casting with other classes (like the witch) or use your Intelligence as a casting stat. Are you really focused on being a sorcerer?

Well if I'm going for Dragons Disciple, I feel like I should really get the full 'dragon' experience and so that means mostly sorcerer to get the full bloodline benefits. There are a few other ways to kinda manage it, but again I don't want this guy to be too powerful and overshadow the other PC's.

For the type of spells, I'm going for a bit of mix. Since I'm making a sort of gish PC he will need some self buffs. Especially defensive.

I want some offensive spells. But again since a sort of gish, won't have max casting stat and spell focus type feats, so I will try to get some spells that don't have a save or at least have some effect on a successful save. So scorching ray and acid arrow type of things.

And then I always want at least a few general party buffs like haste and communal whatever.

VoodistMonk wrote:
Be a Scaled Disciple Kobold Oracle...

I don't know if this GM will go for Kobold in this campaign. Will definitely keep in mind for the future however.

SheepishEidolon wrote:

The Legacy of Dragons Book expands the draconic bloodline to cover the dragon types from Bestiary 2 to 5. Brine dragon from Bestiary 2 seems like a fitting choice, for example.

Had not looked into that before. So leaning toward brine or bronze for dragon type.

Dragonchess Player wrote:


Instead of bloodrager, maybe a one level dip in bolt ace gunslinger with an underwater crossbow and possibly getting the GM to agree with reskinning the spellslinger wizard to work with a crossbow instead of a firearm (also a one level dip). This would probably mean starting with a 12 Int and 12 Wis, but that's not a bad idea anyway. Magical Knack (Sorcerer), bolt ace gunslinger 1 (probably Rapid Reload as one of your starting feats)/sorcerer 2 (take Arcane Armor Training as your 3rd level feat and retrain to Quicken Spell later on)/spellslinger wizard 1/sorcerer +2/dragon disciple 10. You're a bit less capable as a pure caster, but you can boost the effectiveness of what spells you can cast via Arcane Gun ("Arcane Crossbow"). You're also decent in ranged combat and can fall back on claw (and bite) in melee.

It is a neat concept. I think it is a bit too close to another PC I am playing though. I have a gunslinger / alchemist shooting explosive bullets.

I have a few questions on what you mean by "RP heavy game." In my experience that can mean wildly different things to different people. I don't want to waste my time or yours.

Things I am not into in what some people call an "RP heavy game:"
- It is incredibly unlikely I will develop a 'love interest' with one of the other PC's or NPC's. It has happened before, but it very rare for me to have any interest in a pretend romantic relationship. I am not saying it is wrong or anything like that. It just isn't for me.
- It is also unlikely that I will develop an antagonistic/hate relationship with one of the other PC's. If I dislike someone that much, I wouldn't spend the majority of my life with them and trust them to watch my back in life and death situations.
Some "RP heavy GM's" that I have met seem to feel that love/hate relationships within the party a requirement for RP.
- Pages long internal monologues filled with teenage angst and bad poetry. I don't write it. I don't bother to read it. (Not even when I was a teenager.) I have had a GM get irritated because I wouldn't write a ballad to portray my character's desperate feelings of despair about failing an impossible mission.

Things I like in an "RP heavy game:"
- When I get a character whose personality is one that meshes with my style of game play (some just never seem to click), I do really enjoy following that personality in the things the PC will say, do, plan. Ehm Sven Nein is brash, insulting, and direct. he has probably touched off a few combats that weren't strictly necessary. Selter Sago (a Nagaji) has a difficult time understanding and predicting the actions attitudes of the mostly mammalian creatures around him.
- I try, as much as possible, to make my PC's mechanics match the personality. If the personality is oblivious and unobservant, a high perception and initiative would disturb my sense of immersion. I don't think the mechanics are as important as the personality of the PC; however, I do think it is a close second.
- I do try to clearly describe what my PC is doing, though I am no novelist. If it isn't obvious, I will give an OoC reason why he/she/it is doing something.
- I do like to develop friendships, opposition, or business partnerships with long term NPC's. It really helps the world come alive and seem believable.

If your expectations of RP heavy game match mine, I would be happy to try out. If not, then not.

Ok, first question. Which dragon bloodline would seem most appropriate and/or at home in adventures near, on, or under the ocean? I know blacks are in the swamps, greens in the forests, blue in the deserts. But I don't remember any of the basic types being discussed much in relation to the oceans/seas.

So we have a group of players that are at least moderately new to PF. Even the games they have played, I get the impression that most of them never optimized all that much. I, on the other hand, can't stand to not optimize my characters as much as possible considering the basic concept. So I feel like I'm dominating the game time way too much.

I've been in similar situations. My solution is to take a fairly non-optimal basic concept. Then I can optimize the heck out of it and be about on par with the others. One of the ones I'm currently pondering is a caster focused DD. Most will tell you DD is a melee chassis plus it loses casting levels, so I figure it has to be pretty much in the non-optimal caster category.
- Probably just human since my unique wierdness will come from changing into a dragon.
- Thinking 1 level of bloodrager for when I really lose my temper, get ambushed at close ranger, something resistant to my spells, or i run out of spells. Then 4 levels of sorcerer. All 10 levels of DD. If the campaign goes long enough (probably not) I will finish out with sorcerer.
- Will take the feats (I think it was Prestigious Spell Caster) to get back lost casting levels.
- Not sure if I should do crossblooded. There are some abilities that mesh very nicely, but losing a spell known of each level and the -2 to will saves is hard.
- Considering either the Eldritch Heritage tree or VMC another class to get some more wierd abilities. Ha! I suppose I could Heritage a 3rd bloodline.

So this would give me a very nearly full arcane casting class. But not a whole lot of feats to make it overpowered. Some versatility since I can melee if needed (but not enough to overshadow the full melee builds). Charisma will be decent so I can at least help out in social situations.

Thoughts, Questions, Concerns?

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Some friends and I were designing a wierd party that would have been a blast. But then work and stuff made the group fall apart.

We were all going to play Tengu. One with a crow familiar. One with a Roc Animal Companion. Another with an black Axebeak for a mount. Etc... Also going all take a bunch of teamwork feats.

We were going to be a Murder of Crows.

Which chaotic evil or chaotic neutral deity would be most opposed to Rovagug?
Which chaotic evil or chaotic neutral deity would be most likely to side with Rovagug?
(I'm getting the party stuck in a multi-sided little war.)

I'm thinking about giving any character with zero spells, SP, or SU abilities a couple of benefits. A +2 on saves vs. magic of any kind and the ability to smell when active magic is used in the area. Seem reasonable? Overpowered? Underwhelming?

Got a PC who wants what is basically a wand of create water. But that isn't on his spell list. He doesn't want to rely on another character or his lousy UMD score. What would you charge for a wand like that?

Thanks for any help or ideas.

That's not a bad list. I think I will start with it. I want more chance of some bad things happening though.

Quixote wrote:


As for the "final boss", what are you looking for exactly?

Not sure exactly to be honest. I don't want to get too specific since I know some of my players do frequent the boards. However, it should definitely be something(s) they can not take on by themselves. There will be a long fight going on between epic beings. The 'good' side is slowly losing. The group will be adding their weight trying to tip the scales back to favorable results.

I was thinking about maybe changing or increasing defenses. Things like hit by a slashing weapon and it has DR 20/piercing for 5 rounds. Damaged by fire and it gains resist fire 20 for a while. Force damage gives it blink for a few rounds. Things like that.
Also needs to have some quickened/swift actions or some other way to do more things in a round. I don't want an 'epic' foe defeated by simple action economy.

1) The setup I've figured out so far leads to this world having a fair number of null magic zones and wild magic zones. Places forever scarred by nearly epic magic battles. Not entirely sure how to mechanically handle some of it.
Null Magic - Should it disenchant magic items, that seems to powerful and devastating to the party. But I do want them to be risky to enter. Maybe they have to make a save?
Should it stop supernatural abilities from occurring?
If it stops a spell or power should it use up the spell slot/prepared spell or daily use of the ability?
Should it just suppress or actually stop ongoing magics?
What do you think about a hard caster level check to be able to use magic anyway?
Wild Magic - I was thinking the player rolls a d4. On a 4 it performs better than expected (+1 to DC, CL, or ?), on a 3 normal effects, on a 2 nothing happens (spell lost), on a 1 something bad happens. What do you think? Have any better ideas?

2) One of the climactic final battles will involve an extremely powerful aberration. The party should be primary, but not fighting it all on their own. What is the most difficult to defeat aberration in any of the bestiaries? I will still probably modify it from that point.

3) For odd RP reasons, I have a feeling one of the PC's will chose to worship a deity and have a domain/inquisition that he knows will not be available in the demi-plane to which they are traveling. What would the effects to the PC? I don't want to nerf him too completely because it is a kinda quirky likable idea. But it seems like there should be at least some cost/problems associated with that choice.

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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


Note that some DMs / campaigns have necromancy as a victimless crime. This is supportable under RAW...

Boo! Hisss! Creating undead is EVIL!

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
... The zombies still have some tiny spark of soul or consciousness left and it vaguely knows what it is, and hates it. Their dead eyes track the PCs. "You can feel the hatred radiating off these things. Without the wizard's control, they'd be scrambling over each other to rip your throat out." Type of thing. ...

I've set up myworld such that the soul is still somehow stuck to the undead and can't move on to the afterlife.

For uncontrolled mindless undead, I usually have them continuing to perform their last command before becoming uncontrolled or just lying on the ground doing nothing. Until, of course, something living comes withing their small sphere of awareness. Then they try to kill it.

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No, templates are within the game rules already. And of course bad guys can hire someone (but not this guy, he doesn't trust the living). They might even take leadership for a pretty loyal cohort, but most just hire folks they trust to a limited extent.

I use different point buys for different 'calibers' of NPC's. (If they are even important enough to stat out.) So mister high strength could be done with a high point buy, the feral template (I still use a few things from 3.5), or permanency on Bull's Strength - to name just a few easy possibilities. Most likely I'd use the feral template if it is the result of magical experimentation.

But if dude X can have 13 gajillion skeletons, then there has to be some reason the world isn't overrun with skeletons and that X isn't ruling the wreckage remaining. For me, that reason is that I've got him following the same rules as a PC for how much he can control.

If the rules say Sorcerer Y can only have 3 slots each day of 4th level spells, I only give him 3 slots. If I want him to cast more 4th level spells, I can always give him a scroll, wand, staff, higher charisma, higher level, or whatever.

There might be (hint, there are) some ghouls and wights in the area that he has deals with. In exchange for intact skeletons and a buffer region on his border he provides them with some instant healing. Also he animates some and releases them from his control to be another barrier on a different border.

NoTongue wrote:
... By pathfinder lore you can actually just buy skeletal workers on the black market ...

I don't remember seeing this. Where is it at?

NoTongue wrote:


You are creating a lot more work for yourself with no real payoff.

More work? Not significantly. It only comes up at all with major NPC's that get statted out. Besides, I actually like building characters.

No real payoff? Sure there is. I and my players know at least in a general way what can and can't happen in the game.

I find when when GM's don't follow the rules, it sometimes gets almost impossible for the PC's to have any idea what is going on, make any plans, or react in any kind of meaningful way to what happens. Because it is all just GM whim. They have no agency.
Now I realize you are not talking about anything that drastic. But once I start skipping the rules, I am aware that I (and some other GM's) seem to have a hard time telling when they are approaching that line. So I just set that line way way way over to the right and only cross it if I absolutely have to do so.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

... the Spell Sage archetype lets you "overclock" once or twice per day to gain +4 on ECL. I believe the consensus is that yes, you could use this on animate undead.

... dhampir's favored class bonus! "Wizard: Add +1/4 to the wizard’s caster level when casting spells of the necromancy school." ...

I guess I wouldn't have thought of either of those as adding to the total number of undead HD to be controlled.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


(What's the nature of this encounter, anyway?)

At the time they first encounter this labor gang, I don't think they will be able to handle it with straight combat unless they get surprisingly clever. (I'm ok with it if that happens however.) Plus the labor gang are currently doing a job that (the PC's should be able to realize) can't be interrupted without serious risks.

I'm guessing they will have to bargain with the boss to resolve the situation. But I'm also guessing they really won't like it and will want to come back for a more permanent resolution to the situation.

The boss will of course have gained a few levels and/or maybe some undead template by then. Mwuhaha!

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Oops! I had been thinking of him as an 8th level cleric but your right, just 3rd. I will get rid of that and add in Magical Knack.

In my campaigns, bosses do get traits and (anti-)hero points just like PC's. They are at least as special in their own right.

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Just as a general policy, I usually try to follow the same rules for PC's as I give the NPC's. It doesn't feel fair to me to do otherwise. I am aware that is a bit irrational, but it's how I roll.

I don't want to try to add the Words of Power to my campaign at this time.

So this is what I've come up with so far as a rough build. I'm sure I will adjust is some. He is an 'old' dhampir. I ended up bumping the level to 11 so I could get in the feats and give him an undead familiar.

Necro Ganger:

Male old dhampir cleric (undead lord) of Urgathoa 3/mystic theurge 5/necromancer (undead[APG]) 3 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 147, Pathfinder RPG Adventurer's Guide 63, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 89, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 32)
LE Medium humanoid (dhampir)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., deathwatch (constant), low-light vision; Perception +10
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
hp 28 (11 HD; 8d6+3d8-22)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +17; +2 vs. disease and mind-affecting effects, +2 trait bonus against death effects.
Defensive Abilities negative energy affinity; Resist undead resistance
Weaknesses light sensitivity
Speed 30 ft.
Special Attacks channel negative energy 7/day (DC 15, 2d6), death's kiss 7/day
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +5)
. . 3/day—detect undead, touch of fatigue (DC 15)
Cleric (Undead Lord) Spells Prepared (CL 8th; concentration +12)
. . 4th—aura of doom[UM] (DC 19), blessing of fervor[APG] (DC 18), enervation[D], terrible remorse[UM] (DC 18)
. . 3rd—agonize[UM] (DC 17), animate dead[D], blindness/deafness (DC 18), magic vestment, speak with dead (DC 18)
. . 2nd—desecrate, ghoul touch[D] (DC 17), communal protection from good[UC], sentry skull[ARG], unliving rage[ACG]
. . 1st—cause fear[D] (DC 16), decompose corpse[UM] (DC 16), ray of sickening[UM] (DC 16), restore corpse[UM], sanctuary (DC 15), shield of faith
. . 0 (at will)—bleed (DC 15), create water, guidance, resistance
. . D Domain spell; Domain Death (Undead[APG] subdomain)
Necromancer Spells Prepared (CL 8th; concentration +12)
. . 4th—animate dead, greater false life[UM] (2), geb's hammer (2)
. . 3rd—barrow haze[ACG], deathwine, howling agony[UM] (2, DC 18), ray of exhaustion (DC 18), unliving rage[ACG]
. . 2nd—command undead (2, DC 17), ghostly disguise[UM], lipstitch (DC 17), mirror image, spectral hand
. . 1st—detect undead, ray of enfeeblement (DC 16), ray of enfeeblement (2, DC 16), repair undead[ACG], sculpt corpse[APG] (DC 16), unseen servant
. . 0 (at will)—detect poison, mage hand, message, prestidigitation
Str 4, Dex 11, Con 7, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 18
Base Atk +5; CMB +2; CMD 12
Feats Boon Companion, Command Undead, Improved Familiar, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Specialization[UM], Turn Undead, Undead Master[UM], Varisian Tattoo[ISWG]
Traits deathtouched, exiled scholar (nex), resurrected
Skills Acrobatics -2, Appraise +8, Bluff +4, Climb -5, Craft (stonemasonry) +15, Diplomacy +8, Disguise +2, Escape Artist -2, Fly +4, Heal +8, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (arcana) +19, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (engineering) +8, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +18, Knowledge (local) +8 (You can use this skill untrained if the DC is less than 15.), Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (nobility) +8, Knowledge (planes) +8, Knowledge (religion) +19, Linguistics +8, Perception +10, Ride -2, Sense Motive +18, Spellcraft +18, Stealth -2, Survival +2, Swim -5, Use Magic Device +15; Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +2 Perception
Languages Ancient Osiriani, Azlanti, Common, Jistka, Necril, Thassilonian
SQ arcane bond (Arcane Familiar, isitoq), bolster, combined spells, corpse companion, dhampir cleric, meticulous, power over undead, resist level drain
Combat Gear bone beads, robe of bones; Other Gear cloak of resistance +4, deathwatch eyes[UE], handy haversack, vest of shed servitude, masterwork stonemasonry tools, wizard starting spellbook, 354 pp, 5 gp
Special Abilities
+3 to caster level of any channeling feat used to affect undead. Add +1 to the caster level of any channeling feat used to affect undead.
Bolster (+1, 1 round, 7/day) (Sp) As a standard action, touched undead gains desecrate spell benefits for duration.
Boon Companion (Arcane Familiar) +4 levels to calc familiar/animal comp abilities (max of your HD).
Cleric (Undead Lord) Domain (Undead)
Cleric Channel Negative Energy 2d6 (7/day, DC 15) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Combined Spells (3rd) (Su) You can prepare the spells of one spellcasting class using another classes' slots.
Command Undead (DC 15) Channel energy can take control of undead.
Corpse Companion (Su) Gain a single skeleton/zombie as companion that doesn't count against limit.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Death's Kiss (1 round, 7/day) (Su) Melee touch attack makes target count as undead for positive/negative energy healing/harming
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Familiar Bonus: You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Gluttony (Undead) Associated School: Necromancy
Light Sensitivity (Ex) Dazzled as long as remain in bright light.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Meticulous -2 on all untrained skill checks
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) You are alive, but react to positive/negative energy as though you were undead.
Resist Level Drain (Ex) Negative levels don't impose penalties or become permanent, but still kill if exceed HD.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Spell Focus (Necromancy) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spell Specialization (Animate Dead) Pick one spell and cast it as if you were higher level
Turn Undead (DC 15) (Su) Receive Command Undead or Turn Undead as a bonus feat.
Undead Master Animate and command more undead
Undead Resistance +2 bonus to saves vs. disease and mind affecting effects.
Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy) Spells from chosen school gain +1 caster level.

Arcane Familiar Isitoq (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 4 159):

NE Diminutive undead
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +9
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 18 (+1 Dex, +4 natural, +4 size)
hp 14 (2d8)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +11
Immune undead traits
Speed 5 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Melee slam +10 (1d2-3), 2 wings +10 (1 plus daze)
Space 1 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks daze, tears of anguish
Str 4, Dex 13, Con —, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 11
Base Atk +5; CMB +2; CMD 9 (can't be tripped)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-9 to jump), Appraise +3, Diplomacy +1, Escape Artist +3, Fly +20, Heal +3, Intimidate +5, Linguistics +3, Perception +9, Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +16, Stealth +18, Use Magic Device +11
Languages Common, Necril, Thassilonian (can't speak)
SQ improved evasion, visual sensor
Special Abilities
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Daze (DC 11) (Ex) Foes hit by wing attack are dazed 1 rd (Will neg).
Fly (60 feet, Perfect) You can fly!
Immunity to Ability Drain Immunity to ability drain
Immunity to Bleed You are immune to bleed.
Immunity to Death Effects You are immune to death effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Energy Drain Immune to energy drain
Immunity to Exhausted You are immune to the exhausted condition.
Immunity to Fatigue You are immune to the fatigued condition.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting effects You are immune to Mind-Affecting effects.
Immunity to Nonlethal Damage You are immune to Nonlethal Damage
Immunity to Paralysis You are immune to paralysis.
Immunity to Physical Ability Damage Immune to ability damage to your physical abilities.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Immunity to Sleep You are immune to sleep effects.
Immunity to Stunning You are immune to being stunned.
Improved Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save; half on failed save.
Tears of Anguish (DC 11) (Su) As a full rd action, make ranged touch att vs. foe in 30 ft dazes 1 rd (Will neg).
Undead Traits Undead have many immunities.
Visual Sensor (Su) Master can see through eye if in 60 ft, and some spells may work through it.

I will now start working on his undead labor gang. I figure things like Orcs and Ogres will probably give him the most strength/HD for general working.

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But which feats, archtypes, and items will give him the largest number of minions?

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Need so help with an NPC my group will encounter.

I have zero concern with the combat capability of this necromancer. I just want him to have the largest possible generic muscle force.

Must be a long lived race or undead himself.
Level should be approx 9. I could bump it up 1 or 2 if that makes a huge difference.
Large number of strong creatures capable of moving heavy loads or performing heavy manual labor. No expertise or dexterity required. Moving blocks of stone, digging holes, boring tunnels through rock, hauling wagons of dirt, dragging fallen trees, etc...
I would prefer the gear value stay somewhere between NPC and PC levels. So not too outrageous.

So how to go about it?

Bull Rush Combat Maneuver
These have been coming up a lot lately. Whether from Hydraulic Push, physical attack, Channel Force, etc... What is the effect if there is a creature (or many) in the square the target would be pushed into? What if it is a wall?

Aasimar Channel Force
Can you channel force to throw someone around even if you can't affect them? Say if it is a wolf threatening a squishy ally and you just want it moved.
Can you throw someone if you healed them at the same time?

Claws or Wings from a Sorcerer bloodline
Is growing/activating them a standard action? If so they are much less useful. I was thinking the claws would allow me to threaten and/or instantly make an unexpected attack. Also that the wings would keep me from taking falling damage. If I have to take the first standard action to activate them none of that works.

Drat! Well ok then. I will have to think of some other feat to take.

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