Multiple Training Weapon Enhancements


Rules Questions


A few related questions here, that may or may not be coming up in our group. We have come into a sizable chunk of change and were talking about adding a bunch of teamwork feats to the group.

1) Can a single weapon have more than 1 training enhancement to effectively learn multiple combat feats?

2) You can bash with a shield. So can you put the training weapon enhancement on the shield?

3) Any reason you couldn't put it on armor or shield spikes, since they are very obviously a weapon? Dwarven boulder helm?

4) Can you make a spiked Klar and put it on both the slashing part of the Klar and the shield spikes?

5) Does wearing a spiked gauntlet, cestus, or hand wraps interfere with using a tower shield, large shield, small shield, or buckler?


training wrote:
to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand.
Quote:
Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

(1) no

(2) maybe, gm discretion
(3) they aren’t in your hand, so raw no
(4) depends on (2)
(5) no


Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
1) Can a single weapon have more than 1 training enhancement to effectively learn multiple combat feats?

Lelomena quoted it, but made the transgression of not sourcing the quote: "Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once." (CRB pg. 468)

Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
2) You can bash with a shield. So can you put the training weapon enhancement on the shield?

Yes, however, you need to enchant it like a weapon, i.e. it takes a +1 and costs 8k.

Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
3) Any reason you couldn't put it on armor or shield spikes, since they are very obviously a weapon? Dwarven boulder helm?

Training asks for the weapon to be "drawn and in hand", so RAW a no-go.

Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
4) Can you make a spiked Klar and put it on both the slashing part of the Klar and the shield spikes?

A klar already counts as a spiked shield, you can't add spikes to it.

Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
5) Does wearing a spiked gauntlet, cestus, or hand wraps interfere with using a tower shield, large shield, small shield, or buckler?

No, but training asks for the weapon to be "drawn and in hand", so those might not qualify. A sensible ruling would be that they do, but at best only if you can actually attack with them (which you don't when usign the hand to hold a shield), at worst under the same limitation as the Defending enchantment has from this FAQ.

Indeed, since the FAQ states a general principle (Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed (use a weapon to make attacks [...]) to gain its benefits."), you're at your GM's mercy to not apply it to training.

If your GM doesn't apply that FAQ but only the "weapon ready to attack with" condition, what does work RAW is the Dagger Pistol (and its two-handed brethren), as it's enchanted like a double weapon (i.e. two different parts to enchant), and yet you can use both attacking parts while wielding it one-handed.

Overall, most of the questions are asking about options to game the system. You better explicitly ask your GM about them, or you could find yourself on an express train to Rocks-Fall-You-Die Ville, population: your character.


Derklord wrote:
... Overall, most of the questions are asking about options to game the system. You better explicitly ask your GM about them, or you could find yourself on an express train to Rocks-Fall-You-Die Ville, population: your character....

Absolutely agree. I always go back to him to see if he will allow. These are things that came up in our group discussion or logical extensions of that discussion. So I'm checking the forums first then with the GM second. Overall, our GM is extremely permissive in rulings. However, he likes to know what (if anything) is the RAW interpretation before making a decision.


seems mostly answered at this point.

Training weapon quality. Adding a stored chosen Combat Feat at +1 enhancement to a weapon is probably what got it banned in Org Play. Teamwork feat is a different type and I don't think they're all combat feats.
Ioun Stones just do Alertness and Endurance.
"feat" search of magic items on AoN

Normal shield enhancements are defensive and the existing list. Offensive(attack) enhancements are done at weapon costs.


I didn't know it was banned in org play. It's good, but not that horrific. Getting a bunch from it is expensive. The only reason we can consider it is because we are suddenly flush with cash at a time when the group is realizing how powerful the teamwork feats can be.

The Exchange

Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
I didn't know it was banned in org play. It's good, but not that horrific. Getting a bunch from it is expensive. The only reason we can consider it is because we are suddenly flush with cash at a time when the group is realizing how powerful the teamwork feats can be.

You hit the nail on the head as to why it is banned in PFS. The real power of the enchantment is that allows any class to essentially BUY extra feats. Which is not how the game is balanced (and many Paizo designers have said is a big design no-no).

In campaigns where the GM maintains tight control over what is available, Training is fine and can even allow for some clever storytelling. But in campaigns that use a “magic-mart” (everything is available for the players to buy) approach, it gets out of hand. Some people will say “this should never have been published,” but most say that it is really not something the GM should allow players to use without restrictions.


The bigger problem probably also comes from fighter/anyone who finds some way to have weapon training just being able to minge-grab it via Warrior-Spirit and thus also change the free feat more or less at will like a brawler.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
... /anyone who finds some way to have weapon training ...

Is there some way I don't know about for a non-fighter to get weapon training?


Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
Derklord wrote:
... Overall, most of the questions are asking about options to game the system. You better explicitly ask your GM about them, or you could find yourself on an express train to Rocks-Fall-You-Die Ville, population: your character....
Absolutely agree. I always go back to him to see if he will allow. These are things that came up in our group discussion or logical extensions of that discussion. So I'm checking the forums first then with the GM second. Overall, our GM is extremely permissive in rulings. However, he likes to know what (if anything) is the RAW interpretation before making a decision.

Just finished discussing with GM. He decided only one Training enchantment can be active at a time for his campaign. We can buy more than one if we won't to have them avail, but can only be making use of one of them.

I think that is perfectly reasonable. Otherwise things could just get silly.


Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
... /anyone who finds some way to have weapon training ...
Is there some way I don't know about for a non-fighter to get weapon training?

there are some archetypes that give it. Don’t think there are feats that do it in a topical manner (there is a feat that counts as it for prereq purposes, but that doesn’t help here).


Technically anyone can opt to VMC fighter and just gain it at level 11 but also yes some just have it baked in as part of an archetype.

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